Lousiana Science Books with both Evolution and creationism (1 Viewer)

[badmojo1006]

And some Fossils are turned sideways..

Sideways??? WTH?

This is not an Onion Link. This is so sad and scary

 

[bigbottom]

This isn't a public school textbook, is it?

 

[wikkidpissah]

I dont believe in science. I just believe in me, Yoko & me.

 

[Maelstrom]

Sad. So very sad. That is worse than the religious books I was forced to read growing up. So biased. So horrible.

 

[sporthenry]

Didn't realize they still think the Earth is only thousands of years old. The good news from that is that if all this oil was created in a few thousand years, we should be set to go forever.

 

[Run It Up]

Disgusting.

Also:

The earth is millions of years old

Can't even get the fundamentals printed in their text.

 

[rascal]

I'm a Christian and I think my fellow Christians need to realize that the traditional thought of creationism is simply wrong. Hell, even the Catholic Church has changed its way of thinking. At the same time, I have a problem with evolution and the big bang theory. My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing. In my book, you either believe in the universe or God.

IMO, there was a big bang which over millions of years resulting in me typing on this crappy laptop. But I believe that there was some other force (i.e. creation of the mass/energy) which caused that big bang and helped guide the evolution to me typing on this crappy laptop.

Should that belief be taught in school...probably not.

P.S. Please see my crappy laptop thread. I really need a new one.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=668311

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

In my book, you either believe in the universe or God.

Um, I'm going with the universe.

 

[rascal]

In my book, you either believe in the universe or God.

Um, I'm going with the universe.

Ok.

 

[joffer]

Billions, not millions

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

 

[matuski]

I'd likee to get MoP's thoughts on the oppression of religion going on in this thread.

 

[matuski]

I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

How did you make the leap from "I don't know" to "a God must have done it" to "it must have been this God" ?Honest question.

 

[sporthenry]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

Baby steps. I believe in evolution to the nth degree but if we can at least all get on the same page regarding evolution from neanderthals and the age of the Earth, then we can go from there. It is hard to fault others for having different beliefs about how the world started when scientists still argue about it and don't have much of a working theory for it. Only recently did Stephen Hawking come out and say there was enough evidence to support a Big Bang without a God.

 

[rascal]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

 

[SacramentoBob]

In my book, you either believe in the universe or God.

Um, I'm going with the universe.

 

[Christo]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

Okay, so why do you believe what you do?

 

[rascal]

I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

How did you make the leap from "I don't know" to "a God must have done it" to "it must have been this God" ?Honest question.

Probably because I believed in God first, and as I started taking science courses in the pursuit of my degree I had to question some of the traditional lessons taught.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

You're right, I don't know where the universe came from. But I don't fill in that gap in my knowledge with fictions. I just admit I don't know. But anyway, "I don't know" isn't a valid answer to my question. I didn't ask how your god exists or whatever. I asked why you have a problem believing one thing and don't have a problem believing a similar (but even more incredible) thing. I'm not asking you to explain how it happened, just why you believe the way you do. You should know the answer to that question, no?Eta just looking back, I see I did sort of ask that. The first part was rhetorical, though, I wasn't really asking you to explain where your god came from, just setting up the real question about your conflicting beliefs. Apologies for any confusion.

 

[matuski]

I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

How did you make the leap from "I don't know" to "a God must have done it" to "it must have been this God" ?Honest question.

Probably because I believed in God first, and as I started taking science courses in the pursuit of my degree I had to question some of the traditional lessons taught.

You are trying to take both the position that you don't know, but also that you do. This is just another "God of the Gaps" routine. About the least compelling argument out there.

 

[shader]

I wonder how this thread will go?

 

[SacramentoBob]

Based on what they showed, the book seems to be biased against evolution instead of being neutral.

 

[matuski]

I wonder how this thread will go?

You should give rascal some tips, his bait isn't as juicy as yours.

 

[sporthenry]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

You're right, I don't know where the universe came from. But I don't fill in that gap in my knowledge with fictions. I just admit I don't know. But anyway, "I don't know" isn't a valid answer to my question. I didn't ask how your god exists or whatever. I asked why you have a problem believing one thing and don't have a problem believing a similar (but even more incredible) thing. I'm not asking you to explain how it happened, just why you believe the way you do. You should know the answer to that question, no?

It is more than likely a byproduct of the Spandrel Theory. We can't explain certain things. Some people look to religion to explain this while others believe in science to eventually explain things.

 

[shader]

Based on what they showed, the book seems to be biased against evolution instead of being neutral.

Agreed. It also had scriptures, which I would prefer stay out of the classroom. I certainly don't want my kids being taught that the bible teaches that the earth is 6,000 years old.

 

[shader]

I wonder how this thread will go?

You should give rascal some tips, his bait isn't as juicy as yours.

There are many people who feel strongly opposed to evolution and atheism, but can't coherently argue it, primarily because they are taught that the earth is 6k years old. Since that assumption is so unbelievably flawed, most can't even have a rational discussion defending their beliefs without resorting to strange logic. I realize many of you think my beliefs are kooky but I think yours are too.

 

[ragincajun]

Louisiana educated here, although private school.

 

[wikkidpissah]

HeeAWWWW! Giddyap, Dino!!

 

[GoFishTN]

The first link makes it clear these are not public school text books, as if there was any doubt.

 

[mad sweeney]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

So then obviously, like the bolded above, you also have a problem with God's existence?

 

[zDragon]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

Funny. Both groups believe everything came from nothing. Both show faith in their beliefs.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

Funny. Both groups believe everything came from nothing. Both show faith in their beliefs.

I don't believe everything came from nothing.

 

[joffer]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

Funny. Both groups believe everything came from nothing. Both show faith in their beliefs.

It's funny that you don't know what your talking about? Agreed.

 

[rascal]

My problem stems from the issue of where did all of that energy/mass come from? I have yet to find a reason for all of that coming from nothing.

Serious question for you, though: Where did your god come from? Why do you have such a hard time believing that "stuff" like matter sprang from "nothing", but you have no problem believing that some kind of infinite brain that knows everything and has limitless powers just happened to spring from nothing, and then created everything in the universe, (again, from nothing)? That doesn't set off any bells for you?

I honestly don't know. Just like you don't know where the universe came from.

You're right, I don't know where the universe came from. But I don't fill in that gap in my knowledge with fictions. I just admit I don't know. But anyway, "I don't know" isn't a valid answer to my question. I didn't ask how your god exists or whatever. I asked why you have a problem believing one thing and don't have a problem believing a similar (but even more incredible) thing. I'm not asking you to explain how it happened, just why you believe the way you do. You should know the answer to that question, no?Eta just looking back, I see I did sort of ask that. The first part was rhetorical, though, I wasn't really asking you to explain where your god came from, just setting up the real question about your conflicting beliefs. Apologies for any confusion.

No problem.I'm not sure I'll be able to convey why I believe in terms that somebody else will understand or better yet in something that you may be able to grasp and realize yourself. Maybe it will help to address some comments made.You said that I have conflicting beliefs. I guess I don't understand what is conflicting. Maybe I misspoke, let me clarify. Science and God exist in my world and are bonded together. Science has shown to me the awesome creative power of God to result in all of this. As I learn more about our world I see the sophistication and complexity of God's creation.You also said that believing in God is even more incredible (i.e. impossible) than believing in the universe. I fail to understand that statement. God is not impossible to me, but rather the explanation to the unanswered questions of science/philosophy. The infinite variables involved that aligned just right for this conversation to take place is more improbabilistic to me than an assumption of God. As I look at the universe and science, I see a universe that is consistent with God existing. In addition, philosophical questions such as "what happens after we die", "why am I here", and "why are people altruistic" become answered.

 

[bakes]

Creationism is not science, and should not be taught in science class any more than statics and dynamics should be taught in church.

The subject book is an embarrassment.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Science and God exist in my world and are bonded together. Science has shown to me the awesome creative power of God to result in all of this. As I learn more about our world I see the sophistication and complexity of God's creation.

Why do you believe it's the work of the Christian god and not, say, Mbombo?

You also said that believing in God is even more incredible (i.e. impossible) than believing in the universe. I fail to understand that statement. God is not impossible to me, but rather the explanation to the unanswered questions of science/philosophy.

Well let me clarify to make sure you understand - I didn't quite say believing in god is more incredible than believing in the universe (I don't even know what "believing in the universe" means, exactly; I would hope you believe in the universe, regardless of your beliefs about gods). I asked why you find it impossible to believe that "stuff" just appeared from nothing, but you don't find it hard to believe that a god just appeared from nothing, and then he created a bunch of stuff out of nothing. Let's say at some point there was nothing. Then, out of the total nothingness, a bunch of stuff (e.g. mass and energy) just appeared. You say that's a problem for you, and that you have yet to find a reason that would happen. I agree, that does sound pretty unlikely! I don't know how much you're up on science, but if you're not familiar with a lot of modern physics some crazy stuff really does happen. Here's a blurb from a science blog just to put a little bit of it in layman's terms:

One of the consequences of Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle — that you can’t know a quantum state’s energy exactly for a finite duration of time — means that when you’re talking about very short time intervals, there are large uncertainties in the energy of a system. Over short enough timescales, the energies are large enough that particle-antiparticle pairs wink in-and-out of existence all the time!

“That’s crazy talk,” you say. Prove it!

And they did.

Take two identical, uncharged, parallel metal plates, and put them close to one another. The vacuum fluctuations in between the plates cause there to be a pressure pushing the plates together. This isn’t the gravitational force or an electromagnetic force, but a force due to empty space itself.

This experiment — first done in 1948 but repeated many times (under many conditions) — was a rousing success, and has many immediate, far-reaching and fantastic consequences.

The space near a black hole is, of course, filled with these particle-antiparticle pairs, just like space everywhere else. But create a pair close to the event horizon, and one of the two can fall in! The other one, being outside the event horizon, can escape, carrying energy away, and becoming real. These particles that escape are known as Hawking radiation.

When the Universe inflates, or expands exponentially (before the Big Bang), these quantum fluctuations also expand, and get stretched across the Universe faster than they can annihilate one another. These fluctuations show up as regions with slightly more (for positive fluctuations) or less (for negative ones) energy, which then grow into structure (like clusters, galaxies, and stars) and voids as the Universe ages.

And if you start with enough energy, you can take all of the real matter and antimatter pairs that exist, and create more matter than antimatter, giving us a Universe where we have something, today, rather than nothing.

Now, that’s what we know we can get, even from nothing. But there are many things we can’t do, either practically or theoretically: violate charge or energy conservation, decrease the total entropy of the Universe, or figure out where our initially inflating Universe came from. (Yet!) But we definitely can get something for nothing; quantum field theory not only allows it, it demands it. But it remains to be seen whether we can get everything for nothing. If we ever figure it out, I’ll make sure you’re among the first to know!

So it's not only possible for "stuff" to come from "nothing," it's pretty much certain to happen. We know stuff exists, and we know that stuff can spontaneously appear where there previously appeared to be no stuff, but you have a hard time believing that. (Obviously there are still many many questions we can't yet answer, although when that happens, I think it's better not to just make up an answer so we have one, but instead to keep looking until we actually find the right answer.)Now again, let's say at some point there was nothing. Then, out of the total nothingness, an invisible, all-powerful creator-god just appeared. We don't actually know if this god (or any god) exists, we've never seen him or any evidence of his existence, and we certainly have no idea if it's possible for an infinitely intelligent creator-brain to just spontaneously appear out of nothing and then start creating stuff out of nothing. Yet you have no problem believing this is a more likely explanation of what happened.

You don't see how that's a little bit of a problem?

 

[jomar]

I asked why you find it impossible to believe that "stuff" just appeared from nothing, but you don't find it hard to believe that a god just appeared from nothing, and then he created a bunch of stuff out of nothing.

I've seen enough of these to feel confident in saying that the answer is that God didn't appear from nothing. He always existed, outside of our space/time of course. now does it make perfect sense to you?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

This isn't a public school textbook, is it?

From what I've read this is a textbook that is used in privates schools. However, Louisiana has a voucher system where taxpayer money can be used to pay for private school tuition. Technically the schools that use books like this are receiving public moneys.I could be wrong though.

 

[Cawdor]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

I asked why you find it impossible to believe that "stuff" just appeared from nothing, but you don't find it hard to believe that a god just appeared from nothing, and then he created a bunch of stuff out of nothing.

I've seen enough of these to feel confident in saying that the answer is that God didn't appear from nothing. He always existed, outside of our space/time of course. now does it make perfect sense to you?

Well, no. Why couldn't "stuff" just have existed forever? Maybe there's just always been stuff, and from time to time (e.g. every septillion years or so) things just happen to line up right for a universe to form. I mean, if we're just wildly speculating about what might have been, this seems far more likely to be real than some creator-god. I just don't find it very intellectually satisfying to say that everything has to have a cause, and therefore there must be a god, but that god didn't have a cause, because god. I also feel it's better to just say I don't know some things, rather than fill in all those gaps with gods.

 

[NCCommish]

This isn't a public school textbook, is it?

From what I've read this is a textbook that is used in privates schools. However, Louisiana has a voucher system where taxpayer money can be used to pay for private school tuition. Technically the schools that use books like this are receiving public moneys.I could be wrong though.

No you're right:

Fifth graders in some state-sponsored schools in Louisiana study both creationism and evolution as competing theories.

This crap is destroying our ability to compete as a nation. We turn out kids who still believe fantasies that are best suited for the 15 century not the 21st.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

And we're off.

 

[wikkidpissah]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

because of the level of zapping it would have taken in the first "4000" years of universal existence to create an earth which fools science but then the Creator stopped zapping stuff as soon as we developed the capacity to record and measure things.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

One theory is backed up by an insurmountable pile of evidence; the other has no evidence. Can you guess which is which?

 

[General Malaise]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

Billions, not millions.

 

[NCCommish]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

It's called science. Check it out some day. Oh and the Earth is billions of years old not millions.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

Because in the "billions of years" corner you have pretty rigorous scientific evidence. In the "thousands of years" corner you have... the bible? I'm admittedly not up to date on the most recent developments in young earth creationism so maybe there's more.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

Busted out an alias from day one for this? Must be a slow day.

 

[shader]

Why is it so ridiculous that the earth may only be thousands of years old but easy to accept that it is millions of years old? I have read that stated several times here. I find it interesting how everyone will take what someone else says is a fact and defend it with such devotion.

Why on earth would you go need the earth to only be thousands of years old? The bible doesn't say that. So why would anyone believe it?

 

[General Malaise]

This isn't a public school textbook, is it?

From what I've read this is a textbook that is used in privates schools. However, Louisiana has a voucher system where taxpayer money can be used to pay for private school tuition. Technically the schools that use books like this are receiving public moneys.I could be wrong though.

No you're right:

Fifth graders in some state-sponsored schools in Louisiana study both creationism and evolution as competing theories.

This crap is destroying our ability to compete as a nation. We turn out kids who still believe fantasies that are best suited for the 15 century not the 21st.

Look, I'm as big a non-believer as you are, but I happened to go to college with hundreds of kids who hailed from Louisiana, many to most of them coming from parochial, private schools that were HEAVY on religion/Christianity. But I'm here to tell you that these kids were every bit as competitive intellectually in a very good to great liberal arts college of higher learning than I was as a non-believer. They may be inundated with religion in Louisiana, but they aren't suffering intellectually because of it. Just my 2 cents from my experience.