Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

[SacramentoBob]

Also, there should be some law that if you serve a search warrant, you have to put everything back the way you found it when you're done.

 

[MattFancy]

I was surprised the cop testified so matter of factly that the spot where the keys were later found in plain sight had been searched thoroughly before. It was like he was trying to distance himself from any fall out that would come later.

What I found weird about the keys was Colborn's(?) statement to the effect of "I'll admit I treated that bookcase pretty roughly." Why do you treat a bookcase roughly?

He knew they were in there? I don't know. From video they showed of the house after it was searched, his bedroom was a disaster. You're telling me that the cops searched that room previously and no one thought to move a little bookcase around to see if anything was behind it? There looked to be drawers thrown about throughout the bedroom, but no one wanted to move a tiny bookcase?

 

[SacramentoBob]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Not sure how things went down, but I have to assume that the car being so important at the outset, everyone initially flocked there. I guess I doubt he was first on the scene before anyone else had a chance to search it. At that point, there was just a general search for the victim, nothing targeted to Avery.

 

[parrot]

Same here

Rather a guilty man walk than innocent put in jail...

Where is her blood?

Why is lenk finding everything?

Why does the dna tube have a needle hole in the top?

These are all questions I would ask as part of a jury...

It doesn't add up.

I'm just starting to watch this but have heard what happens for the most part. I was wondering does the JURY know about the dna tube with the needle hole in the top?

Maybe it'll come up in future episodes since I'm only on #3 I think.

The "dna tube" is called a "vacutainer" and it's no different than those used to take blood samples in every hospital. It's vacuum sealed and is filled by puncturing the top with a two-headed needle with the other end in a vein. The vacuum in the tube then draws the blood into the tube. The broken seal on the box might be a red flag but the hole in the top of the tube doesn't really mean anything.

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Not sure how things went down, but I have to assume that the car being so important at the outset, everyone initially flocked there. I guess I doubt he was first on the scene before anyone else had a chance to search it. At that point, there was just a general search for the victim, nothing targeted to Avery.

Colburn did radio in about the plates on the car before it was found...

 

[SIDA!]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

They why on the wait isn't complicated to me. Lenk waited until he would have an opportunity to drop the keys while in the trailer and not being supervised. The very fact that you have an active crime scene investigation and you need to supervise another person to prevent them from doing anything unethical suggests that the person shouldn't be there.

There is nothing hard to believe for me that Lenk had the keys in an envelope in his pocket for a couple of days waiting for an opportunity to drop it.

As for where they got the key to plant. Any number of theories I guess...though I am not sure which one makes the most sense. I do not want to sound tinfoil hat at all here and freely admit that I have not read any specific court documents saves for what was on the documentary and post show going viral articles and tv interviews.

But, do we even know if that key was her "real" daily use key. Others have mentioned that no other keys were found on that key ring. Were her house keys and other keys found somewhere else or never found? Was the key that was found a spare key that could have been found when authorities presumably searched the victims home?

And do we even know for a fact that the key they found in the trailer even started the victim's car? Again...this is probably addressed in court transcripts but I have not seen or heard anything on this topic.

 

[Joe T]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Why did they wait so long to plant them is easy to answer: opportunity.

These guys had other cops watching them for good reason. It took days for them to get an opportunity to throw them on the ground there.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

They why on the wait isn't complicated to me. Lenk waited until he would have an opportunity to drop the keys while in the trailer and not being supervised. The very fact that you have an active crime scene investigation and you need to supervise another person to prevent them from doing anything unethical suggests that the person shouldn't be there.

There is nothing hard to believe for me that Lenk had the keys in an envelope in his pocket for a couple of days waiting for an opportunity to drop it.

As for where they got the key to plant. Any number of theories I guess...though I am not sure which one makes the most sense. I do not want to sound tinfoil hat at all here and freely admit that I have not read any specific court documents saves for what was on the documentary and post show going viral articles and tv interviews.

But, do we even know if that key was her "real" daily use key. Others have mentioned that no other keys were found on that key ring. Were her house keys and other keys found somewhere else or never found? Was the key that was found a spare key that could have been found when authorities presumably searched the victims home?

And do we even know for a fact that the key they found in the trailer even started the victim's car? Again...this is probably addressed in court transcripts but I have not seen or heard anything on this topic.

That's a good point.

 

[SIDA!]

Same here

Rather a guilty man walk than innocent put in jail...

Where is her blood?

Why is lenk finding everything?

Why does the dna tube have a needle hole in the top?

These are all questions I would ask as part of a jury...

It doesn't add up.

I'm just starting to watch this but have heard what happens for the most part. I was wondering does the JURY know about the dna tube with the needle hole in the top?

Maybe it'll come up in future episodes since I'm only on #3 I think.

The "dna tube" is called a "vacutainer" and it's no different than those used in every hospital. It's vacuum sealed and is filled by puncturing the top with a two-headed needle with the other end in a vein. The vacuum in the tube then draws the blood into the tube. The broken seal on the box might be a red flag but the hole in the top of the tube doesn't really mean anything.

This is not true and was specifically addressed during the show. The company that they used did not follow that protocol. There was no reason for that hole to be there...unless you are claiming the documentary folks intentionally included information that was false.

 

[matttyl]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Yes, I believe the keys were planted. Which then raises the questions you claim.

 

[cockroach]

What is most amazing...the lady randomly finds the car within 10 mins of searching 40 acres...haha

For perspective, 1 acre is the size of a football field

40 football fields and found the car in 10 mins

Her testimony on the stand was so over the top soap opera-ish. I know they practice being on the stand, but sheesh she came off fake

 

[SacramentoBob]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Not sure how things went down, but I have to assume that the car being so important at the outset, everyone initially flocked there. I guess I doubt he was first on the scene before anyone else had a chance to search it. At that point, there was just a general search for the victim, nothing targeted to Avery.

Colburn did radio in about the plates on the car before it was found...

I guess I haven't gotten this far yet... He did what now?

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

They why on the wait isn't complicated to me. Lenk waited until he would have an opportunity to drop the keys while in the trailer and not being supervised. The very fact that you have an active crime scene investigation and you need to supervise another person to prevent them from doing anything unethical suggests that the person shouldn't be there.

There is nothing hard to believe for me that Lenk had the keys in an envelope in his pocket for a couple of days waiting for an opportunity to drop it.

As for where they got the key to plant. Any number of theories I guess...though I am not sure which one makes the most sense. I do not want to sound tinfoil hat at all here and freely admit that I have not read any specific court documents saves for what was on the documentary and post show going viral articles and tv interviews.

But, do we even know if that key was her "real" daily use key. Others have mentioned that no other keys were found on that key ring. Were her house keys and other keys found somewhere else or never found? Was the key that was found a spare key that could have been found when authorities presumably searched the victims home?

And do we even know for a fact that the key they found in the trailer even started the victim's car? Again...this is probably addressed in court transcripts but I have not seen or heard anything on this topic.

I'd add to all of that, why wasn't any of her prints or DNA on the keys as well. Only Avery's was. If those were her regular keys, you'd think her prints would be on them

 

[matttyl]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Not sure how things went down, but I have to assume that the car being so important at the outset, everyone initially flocked there. I guess I doubt he was first on the scene before anyone else had a chance to search it. At that point, there was just a general search for the victim, nothing targeted to Avery.

Colburn did radio in about the plates on the car before it was found...

I guess I haven't gotten this far yet... He did what now?

He radioed in to to ask about the plates on the car. The car was then found 2 days later.

 

[parrot]

Same here

Rather a guilty man walk than innocent put in jail...

Where is her blood?

Why is lenk finding everything?

Why does the dna tube have a needle hole in the top?

These are all questions I would ask as part of a jury...

It doesn't add up.

I'm just starting to watch this but have heard what happens for the most part. I was wondering does the JURY know about the dna tube with the needle hole in the top?

Maybe it'll come up in future episodes since I'm only on #3 I think.

The "dna tube" is called a "vacutainer" and it's no different than those used in every hospital. It's vacuum sealed and is filled by puncturing the top with a two-headed needle with the other end in a vein. The vacuum in the tube then draws the blood into the tube. The broken seal on the box might be a red flag but the hole in the top of the tube doesn't really mean anything.

This is not true and was specifically addressed during the show. The company that they used did not follow that protocol. There was no reason for that hole to be there...unless you are claiming the documentary folks intentionally included information that was false.

What the show said was that "a Labcorp person" said "they don't do that". We don't know who they talked to at Labcorp, how the question was framed, and, regardless, Labcorp wouldn't have done it anyway. They did the testing, not the original collection, which is when it would have occurred.

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

 

[SIDA!]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

 

[SacramentoBob]

Google search suggests that the vacutainer evidence wasn't admissible at trial.

 

[SIDA!]

The only blood of her's they found was in the back of the SUV, IIRC.

Why was he blood not in the back as well?

And why did he put her in the trunk and then carry her back to his fire pit?

Lol

Lenk finds everything haha

Would make sense if she weren't killed in the trailer or garage. Say she was killed somewhere else on the 40 acres (or even off the 40 acre compound), and then he brought her back with the SUV.

How about this theory - which could explain his blood stain locations (if I'm remembering where they were), as well as hers. She meets with him at the trailer or garage to take pictures of the van. He somehow coerces her to drive him out somewhere (maybe he says we've got another vehicle we'd like you to photograph, let me show you where it is). The two of them hop into her RAV4 and drive off. If he's in the front passenger seat, and a finger on his right hand is cut/bleeding - that blood could end up on the seat movement lever between the passenger seat and the door (which I believe is where his blood was found, right). When they arrive at this "location" somewhere on the property, that's where he kills her. He then puts her body back in the back of the RAV4 (which is why her blood was found in the back) - and drives back to his trailer to later burn her. When he's starting her car at this point, his finger is still bleeding - so that blood would be found around the key ignition area - which again, it was. He burns the body in part or whole in each of 3 different burn locations in an effort to hide his tracks. Maybe he "stores" the body (likely wrapped up in plastic or something) in the garage for a period of time until it's dark out so he can move the body to the burn locations - which is why he later asked for Dassey's help in cleaning it up, fearing some of her DNA might have gotten out. He then stores the car near the car crusher (picture earlier in this thread shows that it was found near the crusher) waiting for a good time to crush it without anyone else knowing about it.

Thoughts? Fits all the blood evidence together.

I have never bought the prosecution's theory of how it all went down. And one of the big reasons besides lack of blood outside the vehicle was you seemingly needed to believe that after killing her...Avery had a reason to put her in the van and drive her a few yards over to the burn pit and then apparently dismember her body in plainview outside his trailer (assuming you believe she had to be dismembered to burn more easily and fully in a bonfire).

So, lets look at your theory.

Can you first confirm that his blood was found on the seat lever of the passenger seat between the door? I don't remember hearing this point.

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

 

[cockroach]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

Because he called in the plates and they said "missing woman" or something like that... and he replied with the make and model. And she confirmed

Then the lawyer said how did you know the make... and he responded, I think she told me just there (saying that he didn't know it, she said it), then they played it back and it was him saying the make.

It seems pretty clear that he's sitting right in front of it. Can't imagine why they didn't drive that point home. But dude was practically crapping his pants on the stand, I guess maybe they figured the jurors could tell he was nervous.

 

[SIDA!]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

Exactly. That it what raised by suspicion level...but I was waiting for the show to drop the hammer on it.

Good catch on that press release. Way to be on top of it, Matt!

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

Exactly. That it what raised by suspicion level...but I was waiting for the show to drop the hammer on it.

Good catch on that press release. Way to be on top of it, Matt!

My wife thinks I'm crazy because I still read anything that comes about the case. I'm all-in!

 

[SIDA!]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

Because he called in the plates and they said "missing woman" or something like that... and he replied with the make and model. And she confirmed

Then the lawyer said how did you know the make... and he responded, I think she told me just there (saying that he didn't know it, she said it), then they played it back and it was him saying the make.

It seems pretty clear that he's sitting right in front of it. Can't imagine why they didn't drive that point home. But dude was practically crapping his pants on the stand, I guess maybe they figured the jurors could tell he was nervous.

I am with you. I thought he looked terrible under questioning.

I guess my question was the following:

Is everybody who thinks that Colborn called it in thinks it is a big deal because he called it in...or is it because of his reaction to the questioning about him calling it.

For example and limiting it to the following only -- if I say the act of him calling it in...in and of itself...is no big deal...do you agree with that statement?

 

[cockroach]

the license plate part is online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpsRtPCWHoM

LOL when they play back the "99 toyota" and his eyes shoot open wide.... 2:00 mark... you can smell the turd that just slipped out.

 

[SacramentoBob]

This reddit thread seems to clear up the controversy around the vacutainer hole:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xpof9/hole_in_the_top_of_the_blood_tube_normal/

The broken evidence seal is still an issue though.

 

[Joe T]

For example and limiting it to the following only -- if I say the act of him calling it in...in and of itself...is no big deal...do you agree with that statement?

No. Why would he call in to the office to check on information that was given to him by the office?

It's a weird call no matter what you think happened.

 

[cockroach]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

Because he called in the plates and they said "missing woman" or something like that... and he replied with the make and model. And she confirmed

Then the lawyer said how did you know the make... and he responded, I think she told me just there (saying that he didn't know it, she said it), then they played it back and it was him saying the make.

It seems pretty clear that he's sitting right in front of it. Can't imagine why they didn't drive that point home. But dude was practically crapping his pants on the stand, I guess maybe they figured the jurors could tell he was nervous.

I am with you. I thought he looked terrible under questioning.

I guess my question was the following:

Is everybody who thinks that Colborn called it in thinks it is a big deal because he called it in...or is it because of his reaction to the questioning about him calling it.

For example and limiting it to the following only -- if I say the act of him calling it in...in and of itself...is no big deal...do you agree with that statement?

maybe not NO big deal... but yea, his reaction is a big part of why it's so damning IMO.

Don't know how he hasn't learned from guys like Ken Peterson or the FBI guy and just say whatever you want with 100% confidence even though it's ridiculous. Maybe he actually has a conscious

 

[parrot]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

Because he called in the plates and they said "missing woman" or something like that... and he replied with the make and model. And she confirmed

Then the lawyer said how did you know the make... and he responded, I think she told me just there (saying that he didn't know it, she said it), then they played it back and it was him saying the make.

It seems pretty clear that he's sitting right in front of it. Can't imagine why they didn't drive that point home. But dude was practically crapping his pants on the stand, I guess maybe they figured the jurors could tell he was nervous.

I don't think that's "clear" at all. If he's looking at the car, he knows it's a Toyota, and the year is irrelevant. It seems at least equally, if not more, plausible that he's confirming or clarifying some notes or something.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

Exactly. That it what raised by suspicion level...but I was waiting for the show to drop the hammer on it.

Good catch on that press release. Way to be on top of it, Matt!

if this were a suspect being questioned, the police would characterize him as "making inconsistent statements to police".

 

[SIDA!]

This reddit thread seems to clear up the controversy around the vacutainer hole:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xpof9/hole_in_the_top_of_the_blood_tube_normal/

The broken evidence seal is still an issue though.

Just to make sure we are on the same page...you believe that that discussion confirms what the defense was arguing in the documentary, correct?

 

[MattFancy]

the license plate part is online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpsRtPCWHoM

LOL when they play back the "99 toyota" and his eyes shoot open wide.... 2:00 mark... you can smell the turd that just slipped out.

Just rewatching that clip again. Holy hell, that's so damning right there.

 

[SacramentoBob]

This reddit thread seems to clear up the controversy around the vacutainer hole:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xpof9/hole_in_the_top_of_the_blood_tube_normal/

The broken evidence seal is still an issue though.

Just to make sure we are on the same page...you believe that that discussion confirms what the defense was arguing in the documentary, correct?

No, it explains why there would be a hole at the top of the vial.

 

[MattFancy]

the license plate part is online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpsRtPCWHoM

LOL when they play back the "99 toyota" and his eyes shoot open wide.... 2:00 mark... you can smell the turd that just slipped out.

Just rewatching that clip again. Holy hell, that's so damning right there.

So re watch the clip and then read the release from the county from yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Why didn't he just say that? Instead, he said he was talking to Weiger and he may have given it to him. Then starts kind of bumbling around. If it's a "common practice" then it shouldn't be hard to explain during the trial.

 

[The Gator]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

IIRC, he was calling in to ask what the missing vehicle's plates were, but then he rambled off the number before the dispatch person could. Because he didn't know before hand, he couldn't have read the number before the dispatch person told him.

 

[matttyl]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

He might have, and we just saw some "creative editing" from the makers of the documentary?

 

[MattFancy]

Of course, if you believe the keys were planted, that raises the question of... where did they actually find the keys? And why did they wait so long to plant them?

Could Lenk or Colburn have found them in the car and then waited until they got a chance to be unsupervised in the trailer and drop them?

Ok, so where did they find the car?

Not a freaking clue. But Colburn did radio in about the plates 2 days before it was found. Maybe they found it on the side of the road somewhere?

Is it plausible they found the car and moved it to the salvage yard? Sure.

Not saying that's what happened, but with how everything else played out in this case, I wouldn't be shocked.

I have to go rewatch the end of that episode. I thought they were going to pick up on it the following episode and expand on this issue...so I think I glossed over it because of that.

But, what is the big deal with this scenario.

If someone goes missing, wouldn't you presumably be able to find or get access to the license plate number of that van without actually having to be in front of it. I am not sure why it is a foregone conclusion like many have suggested that Colborn had to be looking at the vehicle when he called it in.

Granted...the way he answered some questions on the stand about it set off some red flags to me (but aside from that...why was the actual act of calling it in suspicious)?

That's what the Sheriff's Dept said in a release yesterday:

“He did not have the vehicle in front of him. He had a plate number that was given to him by the Calumet County Sheriff’s office,” he told CNNMoney.

Why did the officer also have the car type?

“That’s common practice, to run the plate and have that information on a teletype. A lot of times, it’s attached to a report if there’s a report on it,” Hermann said. “The other thing is that Calumet county … also knew that one of her last stops was in Manitowoc county.”

Seems plausible that could have been the case. But then why couldn't Colburn just say that when being questioned?

He might have, and we just saw some "creative editing" from the makers of the documentary?

Eh, I don't buy that. He got caught there.

"I thought she gave me the make and year"

Then they play it again and his eyes light up when he hears his voice.

 

[SIDA!]

This reddit thread seems to clear up the controversy around the vacutainer hole:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xpof9/hole_in_the_top_of_the_blood_tube_normal/

The broken evidence seal is still an issue though.

Just to make sure we are on the same page...you believe that that discussion confirms what the defense was arguing in the documentary, correct?

No, it explains why there would be a hole at the top of the vial.

Gotcha now...I was looking a discussion in that thread with a link to an image of the old technology (pre-used) vs the new technology. The hole in the top appears to be the older technology/version of the vacutubes after it has been used.

So, you are right...the tampering with the evidence box is the big deal because other than that...one can't deduce or prove that any blood was taken out of that vial (unless there was a test for the preservative with a detection level low enough to detect it).

 

[Sabertooth]

I have heard how he drew up a torture chamber while in prison but she's saying Avery said how he would rape and kill a woman and burn her body.

This has been talked about a few times, but did the prosecution ever produce this or was it just hearsay?

if somebody could have produced it, I'd think we'd have already seen it.

 

[chet]

They should have pulled blood from the tube and tested it for the chemical they couldn't find in the samples from the car. If the chemical is there, then SA is guilty and if it's not there then the blood still could have come from the tube. I find it difficult to believe that they can't distinguish blood fresh from my body from blood that's been in a tube for 30 years. Maybe they could test for cholesterol--it certainly looks like SA's has gone up markedly in that time.

 

[MattFancy]

I have heard how he drew up a torture chamber while in prison but she's saying Avery said how he would rape and kill a woman and burn her body.

This has been talked about a few times, but did the prosecution ever produce this or was it just hearsay?

if somebody could have produced it, I'd think we'd have already seen it.

My thought as well too

 

[Mr.Pack]

Basically, the only thing the prosecution had saying that the crime happened the way Kratz said it did was the statements of Dassey.

That is the ONLY thing.

Even if the key found in Avery's room was actually put there by Avery....there is no evidence whatsoever that a crime occurred in his room.

Oh, and a magic bullet that magically showed up four months later when conveniently Manitowoc County Sheriff's Detective Dave Remiker was present (and after he had already been apart of the search team back in November when the department wasn't even supposed to be on the property...like Lenk and Colborn who fond the key). And why were they at the scene four months later...because Dip#### Dassey's cousin said he said such and such (which she later recanted and said she lied about on the stand).

Up until Dassey's statements to investigators when I think he was basically first interviewed in February...the prosecution basically had the following:

A car with Teresa's and Avery's blood and sweat(?) DNA (that may have been planted)

Her body and the charred remains

And a key found under suspicious circumstances in Avery's bedroom.

That is it. Unless I am missing something.

There is no evidence that she was raped or sexually assaulted in any way. There is no evidence that she was raped or sexually assaulted in the bedroom.

There is no evidence that she was stabbed or had her throat slit in any way, be it the trailer or the garage.

There is no evidence that she was shot in the trailer.

There is no evidence that she was shot in the garage save for a "magic bullet" found months later with Teresa's DNA that should not have been allowed due to an invalid test.

I think that when you break down the "investigation" into two parts (pre and post Dassey interviews) it really sinks in how thin the prosecution's case was.

SIDA!, on 06 Jan 2016 - 4:29 PM, said:

gianmarco, on 06 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:How do you fit 3 years into a 23 minute documentary without being biased? I don't need to watch this because I know. You guys think you can watch a little YouTube and decide what's really going on?

Post of the day!

 

[Billy Bats]

Most people from Wisconsin don't even want to hear that there might be more than one side to the story. Why is that?

This is simply not true. What most people from Wisconsin don't want to hear is people from other states claiming he is obviously innocent, the case was thin, and he should be freed immediately. Then we really enjoy the IQ jokes too and the comments about manitowoc county, etc etc. My memories of Manitowoc are from when I have run the last two marathons through three of the neighboring cities and Manitowoc. My memories are of a beautiful maritime community. Not the way people from meccas such as Bakersfield describe it as a breeding ground for low IQ maggots.I fully realize there are always two sides to every story. I also realize that a lot of the details in this case are very head scratching.

But let's not pretend that the people from out of state are super open minded about this case. They explain away everything that doesn't fit the narrative that this was a frame job. To refer to this case as thin is the biggest joke. This case was nowhere near thin. The only way you can consider this case thin is is you think the cops set him up for all of it, which is certainly possible, but it is still not a slam dunk guarantee. Otherwise you have to clear your head of his past actions, ignore the *67 weirdness on the day of her disappearance, ignore her car on his property, ignore her remains on his property, believe that 100% of what Dassey said was his wild imagination, ignore the fact that he owned a gun and shouldn't have, ignore his dna in the car, ignore it on the latch, etc etc. So yes I get that you can explain these things away by calling it a frame up job, but that is the only way. And a 3 county frame up job that has never had even a whisper of proof is pretty rare. The only "proof" people offer are things that already assume it was a frame job, which of course makes them not proof.

The truth is almost always in between. I think he did it, but I also think the cops probably tried to bolster the case. I dislike that, but I have no proof of it. Neither does anybody else.

Even you said "I THINK he did it". Reasonable doubt my friend.58% of the jury voted not guilty at the start of deliberations. (70% without the two undecided)

I just don't see enough hard evidence that proves it was definitively him, along with all the other sketchy evidence they did provide would not be enough for me to vote guilty.

ETA: I've sat on an attempted murder trial. Case was so thin we couldn't even believe it got to a trial. An older lady was undecided, saying "I really think he did it". And this guy was a gang banging scumbag criminal. I wanted to put him away just for his past record. He should be in jail, and probably will be in due time. We asked her, did the prosecution convince you 110% that he did it? She said not even close. Reasonable doubt. You can't ruin someone's life on what you think. It has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. My 2 cents.

You have an incorrect perception of guilt. I imagine 99% of murder convictions that go to trial all the way to jury deliberations involve "I think he did it". The only way you would know for sure is if you had absolute clear video evidence or if you were a witness. Otherwise there is always the chance that cops planted evidence or other people did.

No, my perception is just fine and I don't disagree with what you said. But sitting in that deliberation room the state needed me to believe "I know" he did it versus "I think" he did it in order to get a guilty vote from me.

 

[matttyl]

The only blood of her's they found was in the back of the SUV, IIRC.

Why was he blood not in the back as well?

And why did he put her in the trunk and then carry her back to his fire pit?

Lol

Lenk finds everything haha

Would make sense if she weren't killed in the trailer or garage. Say she was killed somewhere else on the 40 acres (or even off the 40 acre compound), and then he brought her back with the SUV.

How about this theory - which could explain his blood stain locations (if I'm remembering where they were), as well as hers. She meets with him at the trailer or garage to take pictures of the van. He somehow coerces her to drive him out somewhere (maybe he says we've got another vehicle we'd like you to photograph, let me show you where it is). The two of them hop into her RAV4 and drive off. If he's in the front passenger seat, and a finger on his right hand is cut/bleeding - that blood could end up on the seat movement lever between the passenger seat and the door (which I believe is where his blood was found, right). When they arrive at this "location" somewhere on the property, that's where he kills her. He then puts her body back in the back of the RAV4 (which is why her blood was found in the back) - and drives back to his trailer to later burn her. When he's starting her car at this point, his finger is still bleeding - so that blood would be found around the key ignition area - which again, it was. He burns the body in part or whole in each of 3 different burn locations in an effort to hide his tracks. Maybe he "stores" the body (likely wrapped up in plastic or something) in the garage for a period of time until it's dark out so he can move the body to the burn locations - which is why he later asked for Dassey's help in cleaning it up, fearing some of her DNA might have gotten out. He then stores the car near the car crusher (picture earlier in this thread shows that it was found near the crusher) waiting for a good time to crush it without anyone else knowing about it.

Thoughts? Fits all the blood evidence together.

I have never bought the prosecution's theory of how it all went down. And one of the big reasons besides lack of blood outside the vehicle was you seemingly needed to believe that after killing her...Avery had a reason to put her in the van and drive her a few yards over to the burn pit and then apparently dismember her body in plainview outside his trailer (assuming you believe she had to be dismembered to burn more easily and fully in a bonfire).

So, lets look at your theory.

Can you first confirm that his blood was found on the seat lever of the passenger seat between the door? I don't remember hearing this point.

Yes, or at least very near it. Though again, if he's bleeding it means he's not wearing gloves - but that would mean that fingerprints would be all over it (both driver and passenger side) if the above theory is what happened.

 

[MattFancy]

The only blood of her's they found was in the back of the SUV, IIRC.

Why was he blood not in the back as well?

And why did he put her in the trunk and then carry her back to his fire pit?

Lol

Lenk finds everything haha

Would make sense if she weren't killed in the trailer or garage. Say she was killed somewhere else on the 40 acres (or even off the 40 acre compound), and then he brought her back with the SUV.

How about this theory - which could explain his blood stain locations (if I'm remembering where they were), as well as hers. She meets with him at the trailer or garage to take pictures of the van. He somehow coerces her to drive him out somewhere (maybe he says we've got another vehicle we'd like you to photograph, let me show you where it is). The two of them hop into her RAV4 and drive off. If he's in the front passenger seat, and a finger on his right hand is cut/bleeding - that blood could end up on the seat movement lever between the passenger seat and the door (which I believe is where his blood was found, right). When they arrive at this "location" somewhere on the property, that's where he kills her. He then puts her body back in the back of the RAV4 (which is why her blood was found in the back) - and drives back to his trailer to later burn her. When he's starting her car at this point, his finger is still bleeding - so that blood would be found around the key ignition area - which again, it was. He burns the body in part or whole in each of 3 different burn locations in an effort to hide his tracks. Maybe he "stores" the body (likely wrapped up in plastic or something) in the garage for a period of time until it's dark out so he can move the body to the burn locations - which is why he later asked for Dassey's help in cleaning it up, fearing some of her DNA might have gotten out. He then stores the car near the car crusher (picture earlier in this thread shows that it was found near the crusher) waiting for a good time to crush it without anyone else knowing about it.

Thoughts? Fits all the blood evidence together.

I have never bought the prosecution's theory of how it all went down. And one of the big reasons besides lack of blood outside the vehicle was you seemingly needed to believe that after killing her...Avery had a reason to put her in the van and drive her a few yards over to the burn pit and then apparently dismember her body in plainview outside his trailer (assuming you believe she had to be dismembered to burn more easily and fully in a bonfire).

So, lets look at your theory.

Can you first confirm that his blood was found on the seat lever of the passenger seat between the door? I don't remember hearing this point.

Yes, or at least very near it. Though again, if he's bleeding it means he's not wearing gloves - but that would mean that fingerprints would be all over it (both driver and passenger side) if the above theory is what happened.

But they didn't find any of his fingerprints, right?

 

[matttyl]

But they didn't find any of his fingerprints, right?

Correct. So either he wiped down the car for his prints, but leaves the obvious blood stain, or (more likely given this theory) he would be wearing thin gloves and bleed through them. I have a pair of "lightweight" running gloves. If I were wearing those and bleeding enough, blood would go through them. But then he'd obviously know he was bleeding pretty profusely and would have cleaned it up at least somewhat.

ETA - or he's wearing a pair of gloves that have a hole in them? Yeah, that's a stretch - but so is any theory of what happened here.

 

[MattFancy]

But they didn't find any of his fingerprints, right?

Correct. So either he wiped down the car for his prints, but leaves the obvious blood stain, or (more likely given this theory) he would be wearing thin gloves and bleed through them. I have a pair of "lightweight" running gloves. If I were wearing those and bleeding enough, blood would go through them. But then he'd obviously know he was bleeding pretty profusely and would have cleaned it up at least somewhat.

Right. Thin gloves could be possible, but like you said, if he was bleeding enough to bleed through them, he would know. So you're left thinking he either was smart enough to wipe away all the prints, but for some reason didn't think to get rid of the blood smudges or someone else put his blood in there.

And this is on top of him wiping all the blood and DNA evidence out of the garage and his trailer.

 

[matttyl]

But they didn't find any of his fingerprints, right?

Correct. So either he wiped down the car for his prints, but leaves the obvious blood stain, or (more likely given this theory) he would be wearing thin gloves and bleed through them. I have a pair of "lightweight" running gloves. If I were wearing those and bleeding enough, blood would go through them. But then he'd obviously know he was bleeding pretty profusely and would have cleaned it up at least somewhat.

Right. Thin gloves could be possible, but like you said, if he was bleeding enough to bleed through them, he would know. So you're left thinking he either was smart enough to wipe away all the prints, but for some reason didn't think to get rid of the blood smudges or someone else put his blood in there.

And this is on top of him wiping all the blood and DNA evidence out of the garage and his trailer.

Right. I was just trying to come up with a scenario of how all the blood (and who's blood got where) got in the RAV4. It also ties in the theory that she wasn't killed in the trailer or garage, which is why her DNA isn't in either. He coerces her to drive the pair somewhere on the property (likely to take pictures of another vehicle) - when he's in the passenger seat. He kills her at this location. He then puts her body in the back of the RAV4 (why her blood is in the back), and drives back to his trailer - when his blood gets on ignition area, and when his sweat DNA gets on the key.

To me, this theory fits far better than the chain of events the prosecution would have you believe.

 

[MattFancy]

But they didn't find any of his fingerprints, right?

Correct. So either he wiped down the car for his prints, but leaves the obvious blood stain, or (more likely given this theory) he would be wearing thin gloves and bleed through them. I have a pair of "lightweight" running gloves. If I were wearing those and bleeding enough, blood would go through them. But then he'd obviously know he was bleeding pretty profusely and would have cleaned it up at least somewhat.

Right. Thin gloves could be possible, but like you said, if he was bleeding enough to bleed through them, he would know. So you're left thinking he either was smart enough to wipe away all the prints, but for some reason didn't think to get rid of the blood smudges or someone else put his blood in there.

And this is on top of him wiping all the blood and DNA evidence out of the garage and his trailer.

Right. I was just trying to come up with a scenario of how all the blood (and who's blood got where) got in the RAV4. It also ties in the theory that she wasn't killed in the trailer or garage, which is why her DNA isn't in either. He coerces her to drive the pair somewhere on the property (likely to take pictures of another vehicle) - when he's in the passenger seat. He kills her at this location. He then puts her body in the back of the RAV4 (why her blood is in the back), and drives back to his trailer - when his blood gets on ignition area, and when his sweat DNA gets on the key.

To me, this theory fits far better than the chain of events the prosecution would have you believe.

Sure that sounds plausible. But then, why was the bullet with her DNA on it in the garage?