Manning 49 TDs in 15 games. Brady 49+ in 16 games

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

Who's the greatest: Bonds, Aaron or Ruth? As I See ItHal SundinGlenwood Springs, CO ColoradoNovember 8, 2007 Comments (0) Print Email Great Numbers Babe Ruth Hank Aaron Barry BondsCareer home runs 714 755 762Playing career 1914-35 1954-76 1986-2007Full years played 20* 23 21*Games played 2,503 3,298 2,965Times at bat 8,399 12,364 9,789Hits 2,873 3,771 2,935Runs batted in 2,213 2,297 1,930 It is November, and the 2007 baseball season, which was marked by the crowning of a new home run king, is finally over. Barry Bonds topped Hank Aaron, who had topped Babe Ruth's 1935 record. But is the home run mark the measure for judging who is the greatest baseball player? Putting aside the steroid allegations against Bonds for the moment, let's compare their records.An examination of these statistics shows that for the number of games played and times at bat, Babe Ruth was head and shoulders above the other two. For one thing, until 1920 there were only 140 games in the season, and 154 until 1962, when the number was increased to 162. If the home run totals for Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron are adjusted for the fewer number of games played in the shorter season, they would be 756 and 768, respectively. And taking nothing away from Hank Aaron, who had tremendous talent over a 23-year career, he had the advantage of playing in 32 percent more games and had 47 percent more times at bat than Babe Ruth, but exceeded Babe Ruth's home run total by less than 6 percent. Compared to Barry Bonds, Aaron played in 10 percent more games and had 26 percent more times at bat. Comparing Barry Bonds with Babe Ruth, Bonds played in 19 percent more games and had 17 percent more times at bat, but hit only 7 percent more home runs.We should also consider Babe Ruth's outstanding performance as a pitcher. In the six years he pitched for the Boston Red Sox before going to the New York Yankees (who quickly capitalized on his outstanding performance at the plate), he pitched in 158 games (105 of which were complete games), winning 89 (17 shutouts) while losing only 46. His earned run average was a spectacular 2.19. And he still had it late in his career in the early 1930s, pitching two complete games and winning both of them.Now back to Barry Bonds and the steroid issue. Steroids do not increase a player's talent, only muscle mass. There is no question about Bonds' skill as a hitter, but according to a recently reported Tufts University study, use of steroids could enhance the velocity of the ball leaving the batter's bat by about 4 percent. This doesn't seem like much, but could make the difference between a deep outfield double or fly ball and a home run, possibly increasing home run production by 50 percent or more. Applying this to Bonds' home run total for the years 2000-2004, his "non-steroid" home run total might have been 172 instead of 258, which would have reduced his lifetime total to 676, putting him behind both Aaron and Ruth.But it's not just the players who are guilty of performance enhancement; the whole baseball industry has bulked its profits since 1995, when it got the bright idea of dividing each league into three divisions and adding a "wildcard" team to create a four-team, two-tier playoff to determine each league's pennant winner to go on to the World Series. This could add as many as 334 post-season games, potentially generating a much as $100 million in ticket sales in addition to the television revenues. Fourteen times in the last thirteen years, the team with the best season-long performance has not been in the World Series, and eight times it has been the wildcard team. It increases profits, but is it fair to give the pennant to a team that happens to get hot at the end of the season?In conclusion, I don't think there is any question that Babe Ruth is the greatest all-around player in the history of the game.Playing career 1914-35 1954-76 1986-2007Full years played 20* 23 21*Games played 2,503 3,298 2,965Times at bat 8,399 12,364 9,789Hits 2,873 3,771 2,935Runs batted in 2,213 2,297 1,930Lifetime batting average .342 .305 .298Lifetime slugging average .690 .555 .607Yrs. batted over .300 17 14 11Yrs. home run leader 10 4 1Yrs. 50+ home runs 4 0 1*Babe Ruth played very few games in 1914 and 1935. Barry Bonds missed most of the 2005 season due to injury.

I would agree that Babe Ruth is the greatest player of the three - but he's still not the HR king.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

This comes from a Colts take it with a grain of salt...While I think that Brady has had a great year, I cannot give him his due when he passes Manning in week 17 for TDs. Manning in 2004 only played 1 series in week 17. It was painful as a football fan to see Brady still in the game against the Dolphins, up 21 points, airing it out late into the 4th quarter.I like Brady, I'm glad he is getting more recognition this year. But, unless he ties Manning with a TD pass in the 1st series against the Giants, then in my mind, Manning's mark is still the best.49 in 15 games is better than 50 in 16 IMO. Both terrific seasons, just a matter of preference. I know the record books won't care, but do the fans?Does it matter to you?

The record books aren't going to care...but if you really want to compare comparable performance, then what you really want to see is Brady not finish the season with 53 TD passes (unlikely).If Brady throws 53 TD passes, that would be better than Manning's 3.27 TD passes/game in his record year.

If you are really going to "compare" then you ought to at least consider bad weather/wind as a factor. Manning enjoyed optimum passing conditions while Brady certainly has not. Did Manning play a single outdoor game in cold blustery conditions?

 

[Blueb]

Records are records, but they favor those trying to break them, not the record holder. If Peyton held the record with 49TDs when Marino was having his big year I think Marino would have found a way to throw 50 . And if Marino's record was 50 TDs then in 2004 I think Peyton would have found a way to throw 51 (e.g. by playing the entire 1st half of game 17, not just the first series).

This year, Brady will break the record by 1-2 TDs. If Peyton's record was 50, Brady would throw 51; if it was 51, Brady would throw 52. And, in a subsequent year, when QB "X" has a monster year, he will do what it takes to throw one more than Brady just to break the record causing everyone to ask what would have happened if Brady were playing that year and finding reasons why Brady's 2007 season is just as good as X's record breaking QB season.

That's why records are made to be broken and why individual player comparisons across seasons, while interesting, are often meaningless (as are many records themselves).

 

[djcolts]

Brady will get the TD record - Manning will keep the single-season passer rating record. So, you folks can argue about this for years to come. Win/win.

 

[posty]

Plus the Colts had a running game in 2004...

Indy was 15th in rushing yards per game in 2004. New England is 10th in 2007. Try again.

That may be, but I would more worried about Edgerrin James in the backfield in 2004 than Maroney and company this year...

 

[Bill Lust]

Also, I do not think the dome vs. outside stuff really matters, since Brady has only had to play one game in bad weather (last week vs. the Jets). The way I see it, his lack of TDs in that game is offset by the few he threw late in games when they were running up the score, something Manning and the Colts didn't do in 2004. So, there!

Yeah, that Baltimore game with 30 MPH winds was about the same as being in a dome.

 

[Alias]

I think a record is a record. The Pats have already gone 15 - 0, yet the Dolphins still hold the record for having the perfect season (14-0)I also think there were games that were total blowo uts that Brady could have gotten a few more TDs in if not pulled.We could tally up total of number of minutes played (just joking)

maybe not minutes played but at least the number snaps each player took to get there :grin:

Yes, good point!2004 Manning attempted 497 passes to get 49 TDs. or 1 TD every 10.14 passes.2007 Brady has attempted 536 passes for 48 TDs or 1 TD for every 11.16 passes.

I guess the question back to you would be this... do you honestly feel that, if the situation was reversed, and Manning was coming up on this record, that it'd be diminished in your mind if he had taken an extra 40 snaps? In fact, as Manning was breaking this record a few years back, did you do the same type of analysis of Manning's snaps, games etc with Marino's season of 48, you know... to be sure the record was REALLY a record? Or is this just a little bit of logic?

Good questions! It's 40 extra pass attempts for 1 less TD, just to clarify. Yes, honestly, in my mind, it would be diminished. The answer to your second question is yes. I did look at it, and for the record, Marino attempted 564 passes for his 48 TDs or 1 Td for every 11.75 passes.I only posted these stats in response to someone suggesting that Manning played more minutes or tossed more passes to get his 49 TDs. This is a common misconception.

I still fall on side of a record is a record, given the same season length. Interesting, though.... that you dug into the stats not to validate the record for yourself, but rather to refute someone "diminishing" the record for the player you favor.

Again, the record is the record. I was just curious if it mattered to others? Yes, I prefer Manning. He plays for my home team. I appreciate what Brady does as a QB as well. This thread wasn't out of jealousy or spite. Just a simple question.Congrats to Brady WHEN not if he passes Manning.

I think it only matters to Indy homers, and Pats haters, the rest really don't care.

 

[Phurfur]

I see all the haters voted Yes. Do you realize that all NFL records were set in 10 - 12 games at one point? and Manning did play in all 16 games that year so just knock it off. This is the dumbest thread of the year. Is Emmitt's Yardage record tainted because he played longer than Barry?

 

[RustyFA]

If Manning had a better year than Brady because he had more TDs in one more game does that mean that Brady is much more of a winner than Manning because he has three rings in six years starting while Manning only has one in nine years.

Absolutely!

This one cracks me up. Give Manning the Patriots defense then too. Brady has done a great job managing the Patriots to wins before this year. Manning has had to win them because he couldn't count on the defense.Oh, a dominating defense doesn't help a QB? Please.

 

[Phurfur]

Manning started 16 games that year. Who started this crap.

 

[pizzatyme]

I see all the haters voted Yes. Do you realize that all NFL records were set in 10 - 12 games at one point? and Manning did play in all 16 games that year so just knock it off. This is the dumbest thread of the year. Is Emmitt's Yardage record tainted because he played longer than Barry?

YES IMO

 

[Boston]

If Manning had a better year than Brady because he had more TDs in one more game does that mean that Brady is much more of a winner than Manning because he has three rings in six years starting while Manning only has one in nine years.

Absolutely!

This one cracks me up. Give Manning the Patriots defense then too. Brady has done a great job managing the Patriots to wins before this year. Manning has had to win them because he couldn't count on the defense.Oh, a dominating defense doesn't help a QB? Please.

If Brady had Harrison and Wayne all these years do you think Brady would already have these records? One thing that really doesn't get any play here is that Brady is setting this record with three new WRs while Manning had the benefit of playing with players he was familiar with. Yet, at the end of the day all the external stuff is BS and a record is a record. If you want to find ways to diminish it you can but it won't change what's in the record book whether Manning did it playing in a dome or Brady did it in 16 games.

 

[Homer]

Does it matter that Brady is playing for a coach who obviously is trying to pour it on at every opportunity? I think this equalizes the indoor/outdoor debate at a minimum.

Brady has thrown 10 TDs this season when his team was ahead by more than 16 points. In 2004, Manning threw 8 TDs when the Colts were up by more than 16 points.Pretty much a wash. And Brady's thrown 31 first half TDs as compared to 17 second half TDs.Then take a look at Brady's road stats and grass stats this year compared to Peyton's in 2004. It certainly doesn't "equalize" anything.

Thanks for posting that. I'd love to see the 4th quarter numbers, though, as Dungy is legendary for taking the air out of the ball when the Colts have a lead late, while Belichek has been exactly the opposite this year.Bottom line: Tom Brady and the Pats passing O has had an INSANELY good year. So did the Colts passing O in 2004.

 

[56]

I can recall several 4th quarter Jim Sorgi sightings in Manning's big year. Who's Brady's backup again?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Here's a novel take on the situation...

I don't care and have nothing but contempt for the passing record, at least in terms of what it's become.

I'll be happy to see Brady, Moss et.al. with the "records" but what's really going on here is taking advantage of systematic over-protection of QBs and WRs due to the lobbying efforts of Bill Polian and other GMs and owners who've been trying to crack the Patriots dominance this decade by creating unfair advantage in the passing game. So what does NE do? Acquires Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, etc. and abandons the running game, not because they can't run, but because its a waste of time.

There's been a lot of talk about karma in the shark pool over the past few months, which is ironic, because karma is basically over-reliance on habituated patterns. Some teams decided they needed to protect the passing game [over-reliance on habituated patterns] to blunt NE's dominance, and created some BS rules through the competition committee, and now New England is passing the ball down everyone's throats.

 

[pizzatyme]

Here's a novel take on the situation...I don't care and have nothing but contempt for the passing record, at least in terms of what it's become. I'll be happy to see Brady, Moss et.al. with the "records" but what's really going on here is taking advantage of systematic over-protection of QBs and WRs due to the lobbying efforts of Bill Polian and other GMs and owners who've been trying to crack the Patriots dominance this decade by creating unfair advantage in the passing game. So what does NE do? Acquires Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, etc. and abandons the running game, not because they can't run, but because its a waste of time.There's been a lot of talk about karma in the shark pool over the past few months, which is ironic, because karma is basically over-reliance on habituated patterns. Some teams decided they needed to protect the passing game [over-reliance on habituated patterns] to blunt NE's dominance, and created some BS rules through the competition committee, and now New England is passing the ball down everyone's throats.

What are these rules you speak of? Link?

 

[DropKick]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

Not really. In 2004 Manning tossed 8 TDs in December. Brady has 9 in Dec. Both have played 4 games.

Of course really.Fact=Throwing the ball inside in a controlled environ is easier than throwing it outside.

Fact=Throwing the ball inside or in good weather outside is MUCH, MUCH easier than throwing it outside in bad weather.

Those facts are indisputable and if you look at the HUGE, HUGE advantage Manning had in playing conditions it seems rather obvious that what Brady has done is even more impressive.

To each his own.

Fair enough. BTW, do you have a link to the studies of those "undisputable facts"? I'd like to read up on them. TIA

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap?game_i...p;override=trueHere's your link. It's one of many examples that can be found of NFL games affected by weather conditions. Of course, we both know you don't need the internet as a substitute for common sense... don't we?

If Brady breaks the season record.... well... then he has the most TD passes in a season. (duh?)

If you would like to hold onto the "most TD passes thrown through 15 games mark"... well be my guest.

As far as most impressive... well, that is subjective but my vote goes to Dan Marino's 1984 season. 48 TDs and over 5,000 yards in his first year as a full time starter.

 

[parrot]

Brady should already have the record, Watson and Moss dropped three easy TDs in recent weeks.

 

[PatsWillWin]

 

[Bill Lust]

Here's a novel take on the situation...

I don't care and have nothing but contempt for the passing record, at least in terms of what it's become.

I'll be happy to see Brady, Moss et.al. with the "records" but what's really going on here is taking advantage of systematic over-protection of QBs and WRs due to the lobbying efforts of Bill Polian and other GMs and owners who've been trying to crack the Patriots dominance this decade by creating unfair advantage in the passing game. So what does NE do? Acquires Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, etc. and abandons the running game, not because they can't run, but because its a waste of time.

There's been a lot of talk about karma in the shark pool over the past few months, which is ironic, because karma is basically over-reliance on habituated patterns. Some teams decided they needed to protect the passing game [over-reliance on habituated patterns] to blunt NE's dominance, and created some BS rules through the competition committee, and now New England is passing the ball down everyone's throats.

What are these rules you speak of? Link?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Jan10.html

 

[Assani Fisher]

havn't read the thread, but I think that the Jets/Pats game in the bad weather was pretty much like not playing a game at all regarding Brady's stats. Neither QB had any chance of passing the ball in that game.

Manning has benefitted from a dome for his entire career. Don't underestimate just how much that has helped his numbers(and hurt Brady's).

edited: yeah, see now this has already been discussed.

 

[pizzatyme]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

Not really. In 2004 Manning tossed 8 TDs in December. Brady has 9 in Dec. Both have played 4 games.

Of course really.Fact=Throwing the ball inside in a controlled environ is easier than throwing it outside.

Fact=Throwing the ball inside or in good weather outside is MUCH, MUCH easier than throwing it outside in bad weather.

Those facts are indisputable and if you look at the HUGE, HUGE advantage Manning had in playing conditions it seems rather obvious that what Brady has done is even more impressive.

To each his own.

Fair enough. BTW, do you have a link to the studies of those "undisputable facts"? I'd like to read up on them. TIA

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap?game_i...p;override=trueHere's your link. It's one of many examples that can be found of NFL games affected by weather conditions. Of course, we both know you don't need the internet as a substitute for common sense... don't we?

If Brady breaks the season record.... well... then he has the most TD passes in a season. (duh?)

If you would like to hold onto the "most TD passes thrown through 15 games mark"... well be my guest.

As far as most impressive... well, that is subjective but my vote goes to Dan Marino's 1984 season. 48 TDs and over 5,000 yards in his first year as a full time starter.

I'm pretty sure I can find examples of outdoor games not affected by weather as well. In your argument above, you proposed that ALL outdoor games are tougher to throw in than ALL indoor games. I don't believe that to be true.

 

[pizzatyme]

Here's a novel take on the situation...

I don't care and have nothing but contempt for the passing record, at least in terms of what it's become.

I'll be happy to see Brady, Moss et.al. with the "records" but what's really going on here is taking advantage of systematic over-protection of QBs and WRs due to the lobbying efforts of Bill Polian and other GMs and owners who've been trying to crack the Patriots dominance this decade by creating unfair advantage in the passing game. So what does NE do? Acquires Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, etc. and abandons the running game, not because they can't run, but because its a waste of time.

There's been a lot of talk about karma in the shark pool over the past few months, which is ironic, because karma is basically over-reliance on habituated patterns. Some teams decided they needed to protect the passing game [over-reliance on habituated patterns] to blunt NE's dominance, and created some BS rules through the competition committee, and now New England is passing the ball down everyone's throats.

What are these rules you speak of? Link?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Jan10.html

Thanks, that article speaks of having the officials enfore existing rules. So, where is the link to new rules?

 

[Bill Lust]

Here's a novel take on the situation...

I don't care and have nothing but contempt for the passing record, at least in terms of what it's become.

I'll be happy to see Brady, Moss et.al. with the "records" but what's really going on here is taking advantage of systematic over-protection of QBs and WRs due to the lobbying efforts of Bill Polian and other GMs and owners who've been trying to crack the Patriots dominance this decade by creating unfair advantage in the passing game. So what does NE do? Acquires Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, etc. and abandons the running game, not because they can't run, but because its a waste of time.

There's been a lot of talk about karma in the shark pool over the past few months, which is ironic, because karma is basically over-reliance on habituated patterns. Some teams decided they needed to protect the passing game [over-reliance on habituated patterns] to blunt NE's dominance, and created some BS rules through the competition committee, and now New England is passing the ball down everyone's throats.

What are these rules you speak of? Link?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Jan10.html

Thanks, that article speaks of having the officials enfore existing rules. So, where is the link to new rules?

They are new rules because they were not strictly enforced prior to the Colts and other teams lobbying the rules committee after the 2003 season. SeniorVBDStudent's point is correct - we can thank the Colts for creating an environment where it is much easier to pass than it was just a few years ago. Jaworski says it right in the middle of the article. Kind of ironic that the Pats are now taking advantage of it.

 

[golfguy]

i think one of the points that has to be mentioned is how week the AFC east is this year.

the jets suck

the dolphins are pathetic

the bills overachieved in a few games

and brady had 6 games against those teams.

now, i will admit i really don't like brady, however, i could care less about this record. but when you through the ball on 4th and goal from the 5 against the bills on national tv when you are already up like 24 points. poor sportsmanship . sorry but it is. you can't even argue against that one.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

Not really. In 2004 Manning tossed 8 TDs in December. Brady has 9 in Dec. Both have played 4 games.

Of course really.Fact=Throwing the ball inside in a controlled environ is easier than throwing it outside.

Fact=Throwing the ball inside or in good weather outside is MUCH, MUCH easier than throwing it outside in bad weather.

Those facts are indisputable and if you look at the HUGE, HUGE advantage Manning had in playing conditions it seems rather obvious that what Brady has done is even more impressive.

To each his own.

Fair enough. BTW, do you have a link to the studies of those "undisputable facts"? I'd like to read up on them. TIA

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap?game_i...p;override=trueHere's your link. It's one of many examples that can be found of NFL games affected by weather conditions. Of course, we both know you don't need the internet as a substitute for common sense... don't we?

If Brady breaks the season record.... well... then he has the most TD passes in a season. (duh?)

If you would like to hold onto the "most TD passes thrown through 15 games mark"... well be my guest.

As far as most impressive... well, that is subjective but my vote goes to Dan Marino's 1984 season. 48 TDs and over 5,000 yards in his first year as a full time starter.

I'm pretty sure I can find examples of outdoor games not affected by weather as well. In your argument above, you proposed that ALL outdoor games are tougher to throw in than ALL indoor games. I don't believe that to be true.

You are inserting the word "ALL" into my statement; I never said that. I did say "Throwing the ball inside in a controlled environ is easier than throwing it outside." I suppose I could have quantified that by saying it is possible to have optimum throwing conditions outdoors as well as indoors. But that doesn't change the point I am making in that playing indoors ALWAYS provides an optimum passing environment. I also said that throwing the ball inside or in good weather outside is MUCH, MUCH easier than throwing it outside in bad weather.I don't see how any of that is even debatable.

The BAL and NYJ games, to name just 2 had high gusty winds (40+ mph in BAL and 30+ vs NYJ). Certainly it is harder to throw the ball accurately in these instances than it is to throw the ball inside a Dome. Manning played all his late season games in a dome while Brady has played none of his late season games in a dome. Obviously I can not proove it conclusively, but there is little doubt in my mind that had Brady had the luxury of playing those 2 aforementioned games in a dome he would have EASILY already had the record. Does that change anything? No, it is what it is, but IMO, anyone who looks at it objectivley would agree that playing in the Winter, outdoors in the NorthEast puts Brady at a huge disadvantage.

In the interest of fairness I will concede that playing with Randy Moss is an advantage Manning didn't have

 

[Road Warriors]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

Not really. In 2004 Manning tossed 8 TDs in December. Brady has 9 in Dec. Both have played 4 games.

Of course really.Fact=Throwing the ball inside in a controlled environ is easier than throwing it outside.

Fact=Throwing the ball inside or in good weather outside is MUCH, MUCH easier than throwing it outside in bad weather.

Those facts are indisputable and if you look at the HUGE, HUGE advantage Manning had in playing conditions it seems rather obvious that what Brady has done is even more impressive.

To each his own.

Fair enough. BTW, do you have a link to the studies of those "undisputable facts"? I'd like to read up on them. TIA

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap?game_i...p;override=trueHere's your link. It's one of many examples that can be found of NFL games affected by weather conditions. Of course, we both know you don't need the internet as a substitute for common sense... don't we?

If Brady breaks the season record.... well... then he has the most TD passes in a season. (duh?)

If you would like to hold onto the "most TD passes thrown through 15 games mark"... well be my guest.

As far as most impressive... well, that is subjective but my vote goes to Dan Marino's 1984 season. 48 TDs and over 5,000 yards in his first year as a full time starter.

I'm pretty sure I can find examples of outdoor games not affected by weather as well. In your argument above, you proposed that ALL outdoor games are tougher to throw in than ALL indoor games. I don't believe that to be true.

I don't know how you can possibly dispute that a controlled, 68 degree, no wind environment isn't easier to throw the ball without outside influence on its path & destinatioin than an outside environment where even in the best possible weather there will more wind and external influence on the path of the ball.In one set of conditions, the thrower has complete control over the balls destination. In the other, the thrower must understand the conditions and adjust, even if ever so slightly, to what the external forces will do to the ball in flight.

One of these seems easier to me.

One item to note here... saying its easier to throw the ball indoors is easier doesn't mean you can't have monster games in the elements, or that playing in a dome guarantees 300/3 games every time. But to dispute that its not easier to throw in the controlled environment seems to be overplaying the hand a bit.

 

[nerangers]

i think one of the points that has to be mentioned is how week the AFC east is this year.the jets suck the dolphins are patheticthe bills overachieved in a few gamesand brady had 6 games against those teams.now, i will admit i really don't like brady, however, i could care less about this record. but when you through the ball on 4th and goal from the 5 against the bills on national tv when you are already up like 24 points. poor sportsmanship . sorry but it is. you can't even argue against that one.

So should every record be scrutinized by the schedule that is played?This is also a team that beat the best of the AFC North, AFC South, AFC West, and NFC East Divisional Winners.

 

[bostonfred]

There are really very few metrics left for Manning fans to use to claim he's as good as Brady. It's got to be tough watching another one fall. If this thread helps in the grieving process, then I wish you all the best and a very merry Christmas.

 

[Boston]

i think one of the points that has to be mentioned is how week the AFC east is this year.the jets suck the dolphins are patheticthe bills overachieved in a few gamesand brady had 6 games against those teams.now, i will admit i really don't like brady, however, i could care less about this record. but when you through the ball on 4th and goal from the 5 against the bills on national tv when you are already up like 24 points. poor sportsmanship . sorry but it is. you can't even argue against that one.

So should every record be scrutinized by the schedule that is played?This is also a team that beat the best of the AFC North, AFC South, AFC West, and NFC East Divisional Winners.

Agreed...if the Pats go 16-0 that means they will have beat the AFC #2 seed and NFC #1 seed on the road. They will also have wins against the #3 and #4 AFC seed and possibly #6 should the Browns get in. a 16-0 season also means a win next week against the #5 seed in the NFC. So while the AFC East is nothing special I don't think the Pats have anything to apologize for as far as their schedule is concerned.

 

[Doug Drinen]

There are really very few metrics left for Manning fans to use to claim he's as good as Brady. It's got to be tough watching another one fall. If this thread helps in the grieving process, then I wish you all the best and a very merry Christmas.

Except for career completion percentage, career TD percentage, career yards per attempt and per completion, yards per game, passer rating (if you're into that kind of thing), and TDs per game, and of a course an enormous lead in all the career total categories, he's pretty much got nothing left.PS yes, I know you were fishing. I'm just killing time.PS#2 no, I'm not saying any of the above necessarily means Manning is better than Brady.

 

[Doug Drinen]

As far as the original thread is concerned, I'm with the people who see very little point in worrying about the record itself.

Whether Manning's 2004 season was better than Brady's 2007 season is an interesting question. But whether Brady ends up with 48, 49, or 50 TD passes has very little impact on the debate.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

As far as the original thread is concerned, I'm with the people who see very little point in worrying about the record itself.Whether Manning's 2004 season was better than Brady's 2007 season is an interesting question. But whether Brady ends up with 48, 49, or 50 TD passes has very little impact on the debate.

"IF" NE goes undefeated AND Brady sets the TD record, there is IMO little question about who had the better year.Of course if Brady ends his year by throwing 0 tds and 1 int while "leading" his team to only 3 points in a playoff loss as Manning did then maybe there will room for a little more debate

 

[Tau837]

IMO, the record is the record, with no qualifiers or asterisks.

That said, I've seen some people suggesting that Brady has not done any more than Manning did in terms of padding his stats. I disagree with that. Actually, I'm not sure it is Brady himself seeking to pad his stats, since I assume he is merely executing the play calls that he is given... maybe it is Belicheck who is the one seeking to pad stats. Who is to blame is irrelevant to the point.

In 15 games this season, Brady had attempted 56 passes and thrown 4 TDs with his team ahead by 22 or more points. In 15 games in 2004 (ignoring his 2 attempt game 16), Manning attempted 21 passes and threw 3 TDs with his team ahead by 22 or more points.

In 15 games this season, Brady had attempted 124 passes and thrown 10 TDs with his team ahead by 15 or more points. In 15 games in 2004 (ignoring his 2 attempt game 16), Manning attempted 40 passes and threw 6 TDs with his team ahead by 22 or more points.

Before someone asks, I used 22 and 15 as cutoffs because that is where ESPN splits their stats.

So Brady has thrown more than twice as often as Manning did in situations in which his team had a big lead. There is no comparison on that point. Now, people will rightfully point out that Brady has been in game situations with a big lead more often than Manning was. Obviously, that is true. But IMO it is clear that the Pats didn't need Brady to throw as often as he has to win games; they could have chosen to run more often once they achieved those 15 point and/or 22 point leads. Because the Colts' games were typically closer, Manning's offensive output was more necessary for them to be successful as a team.

And remember how people criticized Manning in 2004 for throwing near the goal line, because he supposedly wanted the single season TD record? Heck, it's been raised in this thread. Check out this comparison:

In 15 games this season, Brady had attempted 49 passes and thrown 23 TDs from the opponent's 10 yard line and closer. In 15 games in 2004 (ignoring his 2 attempt game 16), Manning attempted 37 passes and threw 19 TDs from the opponent's 10 yard line and closer.

EDIT: Updated with week 15 numbers for Brady.

 

[Tau837]

There are really very few metrics left for Manning fans to use to claim he's as good as Brady. It's got to be tough watching another one fall. If this thread helps in the grieving process, then I wish you all the best and a very merry Christmas.

Except for career completion percentage, career TD percentage, career yards per attempt and per completion, yards per game, passer rating (if you're into that kind of thing), and TDs per game, and of a course an enormous lead in all the career total categories, he's pretty much got nothing left.PS yes, I know you were fishing. I'm just killing time.PS#2 no, I'm not saying any of the above necessarily means Manning is better than Brady.

 

[[scooter]]

It was painful as a football fan to see Brady still in the game against the Dolphins, up 21 points, airing it out late into the 4th quarter.

Was it painful to watch Manning pad his stats 3 years ago?

 

[mad sweeney]

If you're out on the field, you're out on the field. Period.

I personally have no problem with them going for the records from an asterisk standpoint. I don't like seeing them do it in unsportsmanlike ways like I thought they did during games like Washington, but I also din't want to rehash that so I won't compare it to the Miami game.

What I find absolutey incredulous is the idea of having your studs like Brady and Moss out there late in meaningless, blowout games. You will never, ever spin it to me that it is good for the team in any way. They have HFA throughout. If their goal is to win the SB, then they would be keeping the studs out of harm's way as much as possible. Keep them sharp for a half maybe, but the best way to win the SB is to have the guys you need healthy in the playoffs. If they're going to keep the starters in there to get the records, which they clearly are, then just say so. To stand up there and say "we're doing what's best for the team" "one game at a time" etc is all a bunch of BS, unless your goal is the recordbooks. If your goal is to reach and win the SB, then having guys out there in meaningless games is not in the team's best interest. Period. There is simply no solid football rationale for having Brady out there hucking it to Moss late in the game. None whatsoever. So far they've escaped the injury bug for the most part, but if your goal is to win the SB, this is simply pushing your luck. Tell us you're going or th records, but don't sit there and epect us to believe that you aren't.

 

[bostonfred]

There are really very few metrics left for Manning fans to use to claim he's as good as Brady. It's got to be tough watching another one fall. If this thread helps in the grieving process, then I wish you all the best and a very merry Christmas.

Except for career completion percentage, career TD percentage, career yards per attempt and per completion, yards per game, passer rating (if you're into that kind of thing), and TDs per game, and of a course an enormous lead in all the career total categories, he's pretty much got nothing left.PS yes, I know you were fishing. I'm just killing time.PS#2 no, I'm not saying any of the above necessarily means Manning is better than Brady.

For shame. Career numbers aren't really a valid metric for comparing someone whose first start was in 1998 with someone whose first start was in 2001, but I'd take career winning percentage, career playoff winning percentage, career Superbowls, most supermodels impregnated, and most awesome human alive over all that stuff you just said. Throw in the touchdown record and it's not even close.

 

[Phurfur]

i think one of the points that has to be mentioned is how week the AFC east is this year.

the jets suck

the dolphins are pathetic

the bills overachieved in a few games

and brady had 6 games against those teams.

now, i will admit i really don't like brady, however, i could care less about this record. but when you through the ball on 4th and goal from the 5 against the bills on national tv when you are already up like 24 points. poor sportsmanship . sorry but it is. you can't even argue against that one.

Well then let's get into Miami's perfect season. Their schedule was a lot easier than NE. I don't think they played a team that was over .500.

 

[bostonfred]

i think one of the points that has to be mentioned is how week the AFC east is this year.

the jets suck

the dolphins are pathetic

the bills overachieved in a few games

and brady had 6 games against those teams.

now, i will admit i really don't like brady, however, i could care less about this record. but when you through the ball on 4th and goal from the 5 against the bills on national tv when you are already up like 24 points. poor sportsmanship . sorry but it is. you can't even argue against that one.

38-14 vs. San Diego34-17 vs. Cleveland

48-27 vs. Dallas

52-7 vs. Washington

24-20 vs. Indianapolis

31-28 vs. Philadelphia

34-13 vs. Pittsburgh

That's an average of over 37 points scored against seven playoff or near-playoff teams. In those games, he has 22 TDs, which is almost exactly his season pace, and almost exactly the pace he had against Cinci, Baltimore and his six division games. And while the division is out of reach, So if you're implying that he built his stats up against poor quality competition, you're wrong.

But since this thread is about the comparison between Brady's accomplishments this year and Manning's in 2004, Manning had 19 TDs against teams that were .500 or better. His other 30 came in eight games against teams like Detroit, pre-defense Chicago, post-no-defense Kansas City, and pre-defense Houston. Manning had an incredibly soft schedule. And this was also the year that refs had been asked to enforce pass interference more closely. While he played in a dome. With only one new receiver, and a non-starter at that. Without the distractions of things like spygate, or a newborn baby, or multiple supermodels taking him to bed on a regular basis, or unsurpassed awesomeness.

Did the Patriots benefit from having a weak schedule? Maybe. Did the schedule help him achieve better numbers than if he'd played the 2000 Ravens sixteen times? Probably. But any notion that Brady did this in more favorable conditions than Manning is simply incorrect.

 

[FFCrazy]

IF Brady breaks the record next weekend, that’s all that will matter to 99.99% of the population. What a bunch of FF geeks/homers feel doesn’t add up to squat.

IF he breaks the record next weekend, it will be WRITTEN down in the record books, and that will be all there is to it.

The next time a QB comes close to breaking Brady’s record, Manning will be occasionally mentioned also, but that’s it. The QB going for “the record” wiil be trying to break Brady’s record….not the player that had it before him.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

In Peyton's record breaking season he threw 26 of his TDs at home and 23 of them on the road. So not really a major difference in indoors vs. outdoors for him.

 

[bostonfred]

Is Brady's 49+ even more impessive since he plays in an outdoor stadium in the Northeast and Manning plays his home games in a dome?

In Peyton's record breaking season he threw 26 of his TDs at home and 23 of them on the road. So not really a major difference in indoors vs. outdoors for him.

6 of those road TDs were in a dome (@Detroit). He didn't play any games in cold weather until New England in the playoffs, where he threw for zero TDs and led the team to a total of three points.

 

[Truman]

I see all the haters voted Yes. Do you realize that all NFL records were set in 10 - 12 games at one point? and Manning did play in all 16 games that year so just knock it off. This is the dumbest thread of the year. Is Emmitt's Yardage record tainted because he played longer than Barry?

You think Emmitt was a better back than Barry?

 

[Truman]

If Manning had a better year than Brady because he had more TDs in one more game does that mean that Brady is much more of a winner than Manning because he has three rings in six years starting while Manning only has one in nine years.

Absolutely!

This one cracks me up. Give Manning the Patriots defense then too. Brady has done a great job managing the Patriots to wins before this year. Manning has had to win them because he couldn't count on the defense.Oh, a dominating defense doesn't help a QB? Please.

Do you have any stats to back this up?Average field position? Turnovers in the red zone?

 

[switz]

I view this the same way as other records...

Rice's TD record is better than Moss'

Manning's TD record will be better Brady's TD record (when he gets it)

The Pats undefeated season is better than the Dolphins...

 

[bostonfred]

I view this the same way as other records...Rice's TD record is better than Moss'Manning's TD record will be better Brady's TD record (when he gets it)The Pats undefeated season is better than the Dolphins...

Manning won't have a TD record if Brady gets it.

 

[NeverEnough]

Manning still > Brady regardless of this record.

 

[stevegamer]

I view this the same way as other records...

Rice's TD record is better than Moss'

Manning's TD record will be better Brady's TD record (when he gets it)

The Pats undefeated season is better than the Dolphins...

Manning won't have a TD record if Brady gets it.

They could share it. Right now, Manning has the record solely. With 1 TD pass, Brady ties him. If they end that way, it's pretty much a dead heat - less game is more impressive than more games, but outdoors is more impressive than dome. I'd really like to see it be a tie, just to piss off a bunch of whole people who are either Manning haters or Brady haters.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

If Manning had a better year than Brady because he had more TDs in one more game does that mean that Brady is much more of a winner than Manning because he has three rings in six years starting while Manning only has one in nine years.

Absolutely!

How about this...Brady's stats have been basically consistent from year to year (up until this year of course). Statistically, there is zero correlation between Brady's TDs, QB rating, etc and New England Super Bowl wins.However, there is one thing with a HUGELY positive correlation to New England Super Bowl wins, that being the rank of New England's total defense.In the last 10 years New England has finished in the top 10 in total defense 3 times. Those 3 times also happen to be the 3 years they won the Super Bowl. Statistically, there is an astronomical correlation between the success of the Patriots and the success of the Patriots' defense.I ran the numbers on this in one of these type of threads last year if you want to go dig and find the exact ranks, exact TD passes, etc.This one cracks me up. Give Manning the Patriots defense then too. Brady has done a great job managing the Patriots to wins before this year. Manning has had to win them because he couldn't count on the defense.Oh, a dominating defense doesn't help a QB? Please.

Do you have any stats to back this up?Average field position? Turnovers in the red zone?