PatsWillWin
Footballguy
The sports talk shows and Dr. Detroit are changing my opinion a little about this trade. I also don't like being in agreement with Felger.
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Manny Ramirez TRADE FINALIZED to DODGERS (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ron_Mexico
- Start date
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
Why are Manny's numbers given more weight than Jason Bay's numbers? Because he is a future Hall of Famer? That is all about his past accomplishments. The numbers are the same people.
blackjack23
Footballguy
2007:Bay .746 OPS, Manny .881
2008:
Bay .894 OPS, Manny .926
But lets not let facts get in the way of your argument.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I'd still prefer to have Manny this year, but Bay's one of the most cost effective OF solutions out there. Having him another year also allows them a lot of flexibility to go after someone this offseason.
suspected
Footballguy
Red Sox made the best of a bad situation. No way Manny was coming back next year, and was a major distraction this year. I can't wait to hear the ovation Bay gets tonight. If Manny were playing instead it would have been brutal for the fans and the team. Let's see how the team starts playing now that Manny is gone. The team responded pretty well before when they lost Nomar.
I agree Bay was the best they could have done given their bad situation. He's a cost effective solution that gives them financial flexibility. Plus they kept him away from the Rays.
I agree Bay was the best they could have done given their bad situation. He's a cost effective solution that gives them financial flexibility. Plus they kept him away from the Rays.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
A .926 to .894 OPS is really a major difference? For one guy playing in a great lineup in a good park to hit compared to a guy in a slightly above average lineup playing in a park not so good for hitters?2007:
Bay .746 OPS, Manny .881
2008:
Bay .894 OPS, Manny .926
But lets not let facts get in the way of your argument.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I'm known in real life as an opinion leader, the FBG baseball forum should be no different.JetsWillWin said:
T Bell
Footballguy
I'm not buying the Bay > Manny either, though I think Bay may be better than people give him credit for. I'm a non-Sox fan who thinks they did what they needed to do to get rid of a guy who was going to actively sabotage the remainder of their season, a season in which they're very much in the hunt for a division title, but with a tighter race. I don't see how you can tolerate that, and the fact is that the payoff for this move goes beyond Jason Bay; it also includes a removal of a negative, plus the beneficial message that this sends to present and future Red Sox players about where the priorities are for this team.
When you sign on with Manny, you're making a deal with the devil because you get tremendous production, but from a guy who disobeys all the rules that you teach to players about how to do things "right". The Sox got all of the benefits out of him that they could, and then cut ties when they saw that the downside to him was going to start to overshadow his upside. I'd say that 2 World Series rings and a resurgence of that franchise as a champion are more than adequate ROI for such a deal, however.
When you sign on with Manny, you're making a deal with the devil because you get tremendous production, but from a guy who disobeys all the rules that you teach to players about how to do things "right". The Sox got all of the benefits out of him that they could, and then cut ties when they saw that the downside to him was going to start to overshadow his upside. I'd say that 2 World Series rings and a resurgence of that franchise as a champion are more than adequate ROI for such a deal, however.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
We heard you the first time.
Finless said:
blackjack23
Footballguy
What about in 2008?
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Fixed.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
FYI, Boston has scored exactly five more runs than the Pirates in 2008 despite the presence of a DH. And yes, 32 points of OPS is significant. If it was the other way around, we'd be hearing about how Bay is way better than Manny.Pat Patriot said:A .926 to .894 OPS is really a major difference? For one guy playing in a great lineup in a good park to hit compared to a guy in a slightly above average lineup playing in a park not so good for hitters?blackjack23 said:Pat Patriot said:
Bay .746 OPS, Manny .881
2008:
Bay .894 OPS, Manny .926
But lets not let facts get in the way of your argument.
Clifton
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Manny speaks some ####### good Espagnol!
Big fan of Manny now. Big fan.
Big fan of Manny now. Big fan.
whoknew
Footballguy
Well if you are really going to be honest, you have to look at more than just OPS. OPS is good but, OPS+, for example, is better.Manny -- 140 OPS+, .305 EqA, 4.3 WARP-1FYI, Boston has scored exactly five more runs than the Pirates in 2008 despite the presence of a DH. And yes, 32 points of OPS is significant. If it was the other way around, we'd be hearing about how Bay is way better than Manny.Pat Patriot said:A .926 to .894 OPS is really a major difference? For one guy playing in a great lineup in a good park to hit compared to a guy in a slightly above average lineup playing in a park not so good for hitters?blackjack23 said:Pat Patriot said:
Bay .746 OPS, Manny .881
2008:
Bay .894 OPS, Manny .926
But lets not let facts get in the way of your argument.
Bay -- 135 OPS+, .320 EqA, 3.9 WARP-1
This is not a slam dunk.
the moops
Footballguy
I need to go trade in my Sox hat for a Dodger hat.
Big Manny fan here.
Although when taking into account defense, Bay is at worst an equal player to Manny.
The money means nothing to the Sox, so having to pay Manny's salary has zero impact on the team.
I would rather have 2 years of Bay, then 1 year of Manny and 2 sandwich picks. Craig Hansen was a terrible, terrible pitcher for the Sox. Brandon Moss is like any other 5th outfielder that is kicking around every team's AAA affiliate.
Seems to be a wash from the Sox perspective, especially considering the drama.
LA made out big time in this deal.
Big Manny fan here.
Although when taking into account defense, Bay is at worst an equal player to Manny.
The money means nothing to the Sox, so having to pay Manny's salary has zero impact on the team.
I would rather have 2 years of Bay, then 1 year of Manny and 2 sandwich picks. Craig Hansen was a terrible, terrible pitcher for the Sox. Brandon Moss is like any other 5th outfielder that is kicking around every team's AAA affiliate.
Seems to be a wash from the Sox perspective, especially considering the drama.
LA made out big time in this deal.
wilked
Footballguy
as has been repeatedly mentioned, the Sox will get the same draft picks for Bay, so that is a wash
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MrJimmy
Footballguy
Right.Can you tell us how much Manny was going to play for those two months?
Are you sure he wasn't going to continue to be a distraction?
Are you assuming he would rake at a level equal to his career averages?
Before the last Yankees series Manny told the team he wasn't going to play again until KC (11 games.) Said his knee was bothering him. Sox had him checked out, including an MRI, and he was/is fine. Francona put him in the lineup on Friday vs. the Yankees and Manny pulled himself out. I'm guessing both parties had a chat after that.
Fair value for Manny might have been something like Bay and Doumit (or whatever), so in that respect I can understand why some don't like the trade. But given the circumstances, the Sox did well to get a player they were targeting this past offseason anyways. I'm having a hard time getting too concerned about the $7M, Hansen, Moss, or the two picks. Unlikely any of those players or picks ever become regular players in Boston.
Standing pat with Manny could have been disastrous. Even if he does play, you think he gets a triple out of that wall ball Bay hit last night? I think he either gets a single or gets thrown out at second because he spent so much time posing after he hit it. And that was the winning run.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Not to mention that there is no way Ramirez would have made that sliding catch that Bay did that was the 3rd out (that prevented a run, since there was a runner at third). Don't get me wrong...the Red Sox will miss Ramirez's bat, but he had to go. He had given up on the team, so they had no choice. I am not going to say that Bay is better, or even as good as Ramirez, but this was a move the Red Sox had to make.
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fixing cars
Footballguy
Interesting article in the Globe today about Manny and Boras trying to undo the trade.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...obbied_to_stay/
Email|Print|Single Page| Text size – + By Gordon Edes
Globe Staff / August 2, 2008
Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.
See the link for the rest of the article.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...obbied_to_stay/
Email|Print|Single Page| Text size – + By Gordon Edes
Globe Staff / August 2, 2008
Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.
See the link for the rest of the article.
MrJimmy
Footballguy
Despicable. Pretty much an admission that Manny was tanking.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
boston.com articles are notoriously accurate.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
Gordon Edes is actually a very credible baseball writer. You really do have an axe to grind, any chance you can take a shot, you do. Its borderline strange, your angst with Boston.That's Edes last article with the Globe FWIW, he is moving onto Yahoo as a National Baseball writer, you can read him there. I guess they think he's credible.
Alias
Footballguy
Dr. Detroit needs to change his name to #1 Red Sox hater
bostonfred
Footballguy
It's pretty much an admission that Boras was behind the whole thing. He's the only one who had anything to gain from the team dropping the last two years on his contract. Manny's not getting more than 20 per going forward, and he's not getting 40 million more from a new contract than he would have if he went for a new contract two years from now. Boras, on the other hand, only gets paid for a new contract. What a ####.
I just thought that he was a lifelong Manny fan.
MrJimmy
Footballguy
:sigh:
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Schilling is on WEEI right now. Apparently he and Manny had gotten into a physical altercation one day after Manny refused to play on his day off when another player (didn't catch who) got hurt.
Wrigley
Footballguy
Good job Schill, bring up something that happened when "YOU" were still relevant. Manny 05 #'s: .292-112-45-144While Schilling went: 8-8 with and ERA of 5.69.....he did have 9 saves in an injury filled season. Manny raked in 05, to say any different is crazy.Typical Schilling.......looking for the spotlight from the sidelines.JetsWillWin said:
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
WinnerodgersLoser:Red Sox
