Mays rips Pete Carroll (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

I know this is old news but I thought this was a very well written article about the subject:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog...rn=ncaaf,236320

When he was at Southern Cal, as SC beat writer Scott Wolf notes, new Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll was "Mr. Stay In School," consistently encouraging his players to stay in school all four (or five) seasons. Most memorably, Carroll went out of his way to publicly undercut quarterback Mark Sanchez's decision to forgo his senior year last January, letting reporters know that his star quarterback was "going against the grain on this one" and had the deck stacked against him at the next level. Sanchez, of course, went fifth overall to the Jets, immediately began hooking up with supermodels and guided his team to the AFC championship game on a river of poise.

One player who heeded Carroll's advice was safety Taylor Mays, the Mack truck of a safety who passed up a top-10 projection after his junior season for one last go-round at USC. For his patience and dedication to education, Mays was rewarded with a defense that collapsed all around him over the second half of the season and rapidly declining draft stock. But that's not really why he's apparently fuming at his old coach today.

Instead, presented Thursday night with a perfect opportunity to fill a need at safety and reunite with his loyal, four-year veterans in one swoop, how did Carroll spend the Seahawks' second pick of the first round?

Earl Thomas is a third-year sophomore who left Texas with two years of eligibility remaining, and one of the youngest players in the draft at just 20 years old. Mays remained on the board for the rest of the first round and went to bed still pondering his fate, evntually waiting for almost 24 hours before the San Francisco 49ers finally snapped him up in the middle of the second round. What gives, coach?

"We thought we saw something really unique in Earl and all that playmaking ability." [Carroll said.] "I think he had something like 24 pass breakups and eight picks or whatever the heck it was for the year – extraordinary numbers – and something that we needed desperately to add to our team.

"He jumped out. He’s unique in that he has the ability to play corner, and he has played man to man on slots, and he’s done a lot of other things. He’s played some cornerback for [Texas] that showed a real credit to his ability level that we’ll be able to really feature in some unique ways. We thought he was the best guy in the draft at doing that kind of stuff.

"The other side of it is, yes, I love Taylor Mays and everything he stands for and all that. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out."

That reads like a laundry list of the pre-draft criticism on Mays' game: Shortage of big plays, check. Lack of measurable production, check. Inability to line up over slot receivers or cover in space, check. But the blow must be double to come from the same coach who was largely responsible for molding all that raw talent into a complete, play-making force over the last four years. If there's ever a documentary on Mays' senior experience, that will be the title: "It didn't work out."It's no wonder tonight, as a new member of the Seahawks' closest division rival, he's taking out some of that frustration over the fact that it was Carroll, of all people, who contributed to his slide:

"I thought, I definitely thought from the relationship that we have, from the things that [Carroll] had told me about what I needed to be, what the draft process is, things that I needed to do, I felt he told me the complete opposite of the actions that he took," [Mays said.] "There were things he told me I needed to do as a football player versus the actions he took and who he took as a safety. I understand it's a business, but with it being a business, honesty is all I'm asking for."

[...]

"I look forward to playing for Coach [Mike] Singletary 16 games a year than I look forward to playing against Coach Carroll twice a year."

The ESPN guys painted Mays as whining about sour grapes, but I thought that was unfair. We've heard Carroll go on and on about how important is it to stay until you graduate and how it makes you a better football player. He flat out ripped Sanchez for coming out early and saying the odds are now likely that he'll fail since he's coming out early. He obviously told Mays last year that it was in Mays' best interest to stay at Southern Cal. And then he takes a sophomore with the 14th pick in the draft?I get that it's a business and that Carroll was making the wise decision here. I've got no beef with him thinking Mays has less pro potential than Thomas, and he should have taken Thomas if that's how he feels. But I also think that Carroll was exposed as a self-interested liar when he's been telling his sophomores and juniors to stay in school because it will make them better pros. Now that he's a pro coach, he didn't seem to think there were any red flags against Thomas.

Of course, there shouldn't be red flags on Thomas. There's nothing wrong with coming out early. In fact, it's probably the smart thing for most players. For college coaches, it's the opposite. You want your players to stay as long as possible. And Carroll, as a good college coach, should have tried to keep his players in school for as long as possible; it would ultimately lead to more success for USC. But what rubs me the wrong way is how Carroll never claimed that he was being selfish when he told players to stay in school, but that it was in their best interest. In the world of college football, lying is pretty much coaching 101. So I guess I don't blame Carroll. But I do think he was sort of exposed as a fraud on this issue, at least.

Thoughts?

 

[CalBear]

Thoughts?

Hypocritical, unethical sports programs at USC? Whoda thunk?Unfortunately by the time the NCAA really catches up to them, everyone involved will be gone, but that's just the way the NCAA works.

 

[Nagle2998]

I heard people rip Mays on the radio and TV for saying something negative about Carroll but this is the first time I actually saw the quote and I agree with you Mays was right. If I was Mays and stayed in school because Carroll said it was the right choice for those reason and then he takes a one year starting sophomore over me I would be pissed also. Now I think most college coaches are sneaks and don't care much about their players unless it affects them on the field so I wouldn't have expected more from Carroll. I just wonder IF Carroll fails how can he ever tell another player that is a first round pick to stay.

 

[werdnoynek]

you've pretty much summed up my thoughts. definitely shines a light on his self interested "advice" to his young up and coming under-classmen players at USC... mays has a right to be upset about it, however, seattle took the better player - cant be upset he didn't get picked.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

My inital reaction after hearing about Mays running his mouth was "Thank God the Eagles picked Nate Allen instead of this clown", but I'm willing to soften my stance on Mays now that I understand the full context of his gripes.

That said, I still think that Mays should've kept the smack talking to himself and proved it on the field, especially the two games a year vs Seattle, and I also think that Mays, Leinart or any of Carroll's previous players who cost themselves money by staying the extra year in school have only themselves to blame.

 

[GregR_2]

Agreed, once you hear the whole situation and what Mays comments actually were, I think he's very justified to be upset about it. Might not have been the best to take it into the media. But even with that, I think he's justified enough that I don't think less of him for having aired his grievance publicly.

 

[EBF]

Carroll is a snake who will say/do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

I'm sure there are many others like him in the NCAA/NFL.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Mays fell in the draft and was bitter about it. End of story.

Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

 

[Mello]

Mays needs to chalk this up as a learning experience, use it as motivation, and move on. His whining isn't going to come across well. I have some sympathy for him, but he shouldn't have been naive enough to think Carroll was looking out for Mays' best interests.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

Mays fell in the draft and was bitter about it. End of story.Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

Follows Closely:Seahawks

 

[CaptainHook]

Its incredible how different what he said is from how the media portrayed it. He should clearly be upset with carroll and he didn't say anything out of line at all.

Carroll deserves to look like a self-interested ####### and I'm glad I got to see the real quote because that wasn't at all how I was understanding the situation before.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

Follows Closely:Seahawks

FWIW, I could care less about the Seahawks and I agree with him. Just because Carroll thinks that staying in school longer helps you out doesn't mean that he has to think every senior is better than every underclassman.ETA: Does this mean people would have been ripping him if he had the #1 overall pick and took Bradford over Tebow?

 

[Zoomanji]

In the world of college football, lying is pretty much coaching 101. So I guess I don't blame Carroll. But I do think he was sort of exposed as a fraud on this issue, at least.Thoughts?

That's pretty much it for me. He "conned" if you want to use that word, Mays into staying in school so they could have another shot at a National Championship. That's what Head Coaches in College get paid to do and in a lot of schools it means "by any means necessary".Unfortunately it cost Mays probably millions of dollars. Its hard to filter out how much is sour grapes from Mays and how much was Carroll doing his job.

 

[GregR_2]

Mays fell in the draft and was bitter about it. End of story.

Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

I think you're missing the major point. Read the ESPN article, it does a much better job of covering May's side of the story. http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/news/story?id=5131914Mays is bitter because he stayed in school under his coach's guidance it would help him in the pros. And was then used defensively in a way that exposed his flaws and caused his draft stock to plummet from top 10 to middle of the 2nd, literally costing him millions of dollars for trusting his coach's advice. All the while he's asking Carroll about what he needs to do to show well for the pro scouts and Carroll is telling him not to worry while in reality his stock is falling. From the ESPN article:

Mays says all year he had continually asked Carroll what he needed to do to get better, what deficiencies he needed to correct to prove to scouts that he was the brightest, fastest, most physical safety in the country; to maintain the lofty status he had achieved the year before.

"[Pete] kept saying, 'Taylor, you'll be fine. You're fine,' " Mays said. "Obviously that wasn't the case."

I don't think it's at all accurate to portray his bitterness as being based on Carroll picking a better player. In the ESPN article, they quote Mays as saying Thomas is a fine player and Mays knew Thomas would go higher than him. If Carroll had taken a tackle, Mays bitterness is still justified for the same exact reasons. The fact that Carroll picked a safety who didn't stay in for 4 years is an ironic extra twist of the knife, but not the reason for Mays feeling he was stabbed in the back by his coach.

 

[GregR_2]

Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

Follows Closely:Seahawks

FWIW, I could care less about the Seahawks and I agree with him. Just because Carroll thinks that staying in school longer helps you out doesn't mean that he has to think every senior is better than every underclassman.ETA: Does this mean people would have been ripping him if he had the #1 overall pick and took Bradford over Tebow?

FreeBaGel, see the post I just added. Do you think Carroll should have told Mays all season long that his draft stock was fine when Carroll was using Mays defensively in ways that were exposing his weaknesses? Do you think he owed it to him to at least identify for Mays the problems that were being noticed with his game and work with him in practice to try to correct them? Or was continually telling him that he was fine when in fact he was losing out on millions of dollars untruthful and self-serving?

 

[Catbird]

Wow! I have no love for Petey, but I think this one is way off base.

Carroll preached staying in school as being best for the players - as do a lot of coaches, recognizing that its bettter for the program and may be better for the player - depending on whether he improves his draft stock enough to change his earnings curve over his career. I suspect all coaches talk more to the players about the advantages to the player than to the program, while caring more about the program benefits. But I don't see anything remarkable about Carroll's behavior here, or even particularly unusual.

He told Mays the same as he told everyone - and probably believes its general that its better for kids to stay the extra year to go in as the best player they can. And Mays almost certainly became better over his senior season. That his ranking got worse was due to production - but there are no promises here and Mays stock probably fell due to weaknesses in coverage ability was exposed when those around him were worse.

But it doesn't say anywhere that Carroll said he would pick Mays first if he took a DB? Pete may think Mays improved himself a whole lot and might have ranked him a lot higher after having the senior year's work, or not, but he is an NFL coach and when you pick, you take the best guy. What would you guys be writing if he intentionally took the worse player because the guy came through his former program? I never saw anyone even remotely consider these two players to be comperable talents?

Would Thomas have been picked even higher if he stayed another year - I don't know, nor does it matter. He is better than Mays even without an extra year. You still take the better guy. If Carroll told Mays he was the best guy in the draft, then Mays has a gripe. And I understand a kid feeling like his coach should appreciate him more than he does someone else. I don't fault Mays a lot, except for not having yet learned that such comments never help with public perception, but I don't see any Carroll problem in this instance - unlike some of his other patterns. For anyone to join Mays here in criticizing the pick ,,, I just don't understand/

 

[Sabertooth]

Of course, there shouldn't be red flags on Thomas. There's nothing wrong with coming out early. In fact, it's probably the smart thing for most players.

I think this is wrong.

 

[GregR_2]

Another section from the ESPN article that illustrates the heart of May's frustration:

There are those who believed Carroll forced Mays into a defensive scheme his senior year that was convenient for the young, sometimes inept Trojans defense. The scheme didn't showcase Mays' talents."He played too far off the ball, he was responsible for too much ground, he was expected to make up for the mistakes of others," wrote the bloggers. Mays refused to buy into the criticism, saying he was doing what Carroll told him to do. It was a story he stuck to all season, because, he says, he believed and trusted that Carroll was doing the best thing for him and for the team.In hindsight, he says, he realizes the scheme probably didn't prepare him for the draft, and the fact that he wasn't a defensive playmaker because of it is likely what hurt him most. Still, he ran a blistering 40 at the combine (4.23 to 4.43 depending on whose watch you were watching) and was, by just about everybody's standards, still an incredible athlete.Obviously it wasn't enough."I wish I would have known why I wouldn't be taken in the first round," he said Friday, "At least have been shown what I needed work on. Here's my head coach, the person I trust most, telling me I had nothing to worry about and then I'm worrying about it [when it's too late] because I'm not getting picked."

 

[Mello]

Assuming money is the primary motivation, if an underclassman is going to go within the first 4 rounds, he should leave school. Deciding to go back is gambling $500K guaranteed + 2.2 million/4 yr or more in the hopes that they can improve their draft position. That's more than enough money to use to go back and finish their education if football doesn't work out. Does anyone honestly expect college coaches to give this advice to kids? That's not the message the colleges or our PC society want to send kids. Obviously, it's also in the coach's and his staff's best interest to keep good players at the school.

 

[G-Money]

Wow! I have no love for Petey, but I think this one is way off base. Carroll preached staying in school as being best for the players - as do a lot of coaches, recognizing that its bettter for the program and may be better for the player - depending on whether he improves his draft stock enough to change his earnings curve over his career. I suspect all coaches talk more to the players about the advantages to the player than to the program, while caring more about the program benefits. But I don't see anything remarkable about Carroll's behavior here, or even particularly unusual.He told Mays the same as he told everyone - and probably believes its general that its better for kids to stay the extra year to go in as the best player they can. And Mays almost certainly became better over his senior season. That his ranking got worse was due to production - but there are no promises here and Mays stock probably fell due to weaknesses in coverage ability was exposed when those around him were worse.But it doesn't say anywhere that Carroll said he would pick Mays first if he took a DB? Pete may think Mays improved himself a whole lot and might have ranked him a lot higher after having the senior year's work, or not, but he is an NFL coach and when you pick, you take the best guy. What would you guys be writing if he intentionally took the worse player because the guy came through his former program? I never saw anyone even remotely consider these two players to be comperable talents?Would Thomas have been picked even higher if he stayed another year - I don't know, nor does it matter. He is better than Mays even without an extra year. You still take the better guy. If Carroll told Mays he was the best guy in the draft, then Mays has a gripe. And I understand a kid feeling like his coach should appreciate him more than he does someone else. I don't fault Mays a lot, except for not having yet learned that such comments never help with public perception, but I don't see any Carroll problem in this instance - unlike some of his other patterns. For anyone to join Mays here in criticizing the pick ,,, I just don't understand/

 

[CaptainHook]

Any definite first rounder deciding to stay in school another year is making a big mistake.

 

[cstu]

Carroll is a snake who will say/do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

It's as simple as that really.

 

[Mello]

"I wish I would have known why I wouldn't be taken in the first round," he said Friday, "At least have been shown what I needed work on. Here's my head coach, the person I trust most, telling me I had nothing to worry about and then I'm worrying about it [when it's too late] because I'm not getting picked."

This makes more sense. Carroll's not a college coach now though, so putting all this out in the media isn't going to help anyone. Still think Mays would be better served by shutting up and using this as motivation.

 

[CaptainHook]

he also learned a valuable lesson of never tell the media anything

 

[Christo]

I know this is old news but I thought this was a very well written article about the subject:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog...rn=ncaaf,236320

When he was at Southern Cal, as SC beat writer Scott Wolf notes, new Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll was "Mr. Stay In School," consistently encouraging his players to stay in school all four (or five) seasons. Most memorably, Carroll went out of his way to publicly undercut quarterback Mark Sanchez's decision to forgo his senior year last January, letting reporters know that his star quarterback was "going against the grain on this one" and had the deck stacked against him at the next level. Sanchez, of course, went fifth overall to the Jets, immediately began hooking up with supermodels and guided his team to the AFC championship game on a river of poise.

One player who heeded Carroll's advice was safety Taylor Mays, the Mack truck of a safety who passed up a top-10 projection after his junior season for one last go-round at USC. For his patience and dedication to education, Mays was rewarded with a defense that collapsed all around him over the second half of the season and rapidly declining draft stock. But that's not really why he's apparently fuming at his old coach today.

Instead, presented Thursday night with a perfect opportunity to fill a need at safety and reunite with his loyal, four-year veterans in one swoop, how did Carroll spend the Seahawks' second pick of the first round?

Earl Thomas is a third-year sophomore who left Texas with two years of eligibility remaining, and one of the youngest players in the draft at just 20 years old. Mays remained on the board for the rest of the first round and went to bed still pondering his fate, evntually waiting for almost 24 hours before the San Francisco 49ers finally snapped him up in the middle of the second round. What gives, coach?

"We thought we saw something really unique in Earl and all that playmaking ability." [Carroll said.] "I think he had something like 24 pass breakups and eight picks or whatever the heck it was for the year – extraordinary numbers – and something that we needed desperately to add to our team.

"He jumped out. He’s unique in that he has the ability to play corner, and he has played man to man on slots, and he’s done a lot of other things. He’s played some cornerback for [Texas] that showed a real credit to his ability level that we’ll be able to really feature in some unique ways. We thought he was the best guy in the draft at doing that kind of stuff.

"The other side of it is, yes, I love Taylor Mays and everything he stands for and all that. Unfortunately, it didn’t work out."

That reads like a laundry list of the pre-draft criticism on Mays' game: Shortage of big plays, check. Lack of measurable production, check. Inability to line up over slot receivers or cover in space, check. But the blow must be double to come from the same coach who was largely responsible for molding all that raw talent into a complete, play-making force over the last four years. If there's ever a documentary on Mays' senior experience, that will be the title: "It didn't work out."It's no wonder tonight, as a new member of the Seahawks' closest division rival, he's taking out some of that frustration over the fact that it was Carroll, of all people, who contributed to his slide:

"I thought, I definitely thought from the relationship that we have, from the things that [Carroll] had told me about what I needed to be, what the draft process is, things that I needed to do, I felt he told me the complete opposite of the actions that he took," [Mays said.] "There were things he told me I needed to do as a football player versus the actions he took and who he took as a safety. I understand it's a business, but with it being a business, honesty is all I'm asking for."

[...]

"I look forward to playing for Coach [Mike] Singletary 16 games a year than I look forward to playing against Coach Carroll twice a year."

The ESPN guys painted Mays as whining about sour grapes, but I thought that was unfair. We've heard Carroll go on and on about how important is it to stay until you graduate and how it makes you a better football player. He flat out ripped Sanchez for coming out early and saying the odds are now likely that he'll fail since he's coming out early. He obviously told Mays last year that it was in Mays' best interest to stay at Southern Cal. And then he takes a sophomore with the 14th pick in the draft?I get that it's a business and that Carroll was making the wise decision here. I've got no beef with him thinking Mays has less pro potential than Thomas, and he should have taken Thomas if that's how he feels. But I also think that Carroll was exposed as a self-interested liar when he's been telling his sophomores and juniors to stay in school because it will make them better pros. Now that he's a pro coach, he didn't seem to think there were any red flags against Thomas.

Of course, there shouldn't be red flags on Thomas. There's nothing wrong with coming out early. In fact, it's probably the smart thing for most players. For college coaches, it's the opposite. You want your players to stay as long as possible. And Carroll, as a good college coach, should have tried to keep his players in school for as long as possible; it would ultimately lead to more success for USC. But what rubs me the wrong way is how Carroll never claimed that he was being selfish when he told players to stay in school, but that it was in their best interest. In the world of college football, lying is pretty much coaching 101. So I guess I don't blame Carroll. But I do think he was sort of exposed as a fraud on this issue, at least.

Thoughts?

Don't understand the logic of the bolded statement. I think you're mixing up what would make someone a better pro with what constitutes a red flag. Maybe Carroll also believes that Thomas would have been a better player had he stayed in school. But I don't see how that relates to Carroll's decision to draft Thomas rather than Mays.

 

[Sabertooth]

Didn't Leinart hurt his draft stock quite a bit by staying in school as well?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Mays should have been as smart as Sanchez and left last year if his stock was so high. He has to man up and make his own decisions. Personally I wouldn't want the guy anywhere around my team. He's overrated and can't cover and will be lucky to be compared to Roy Williams in a few years.

 

[Sweet Love]

I read the entire article in regards to this about two days ago. What is missing from the clip is where Mays (this is somewhat of a losse interpretation) states that he understands why Carroll took Thomas (because he was so talented) and did not blame him for the pick. Mays is bitter not because Carrol passed on him (Carroll actually invited him to the Seahawks facility a day before the draft to hang out and had to uninvite him because there is a rule against it), but because he did not go where he wanted to. Do you think Mays would have said a word if he went right after the Hawks pick??

 

[Catbird]

Carroll is a snake who will say/do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

It's as simple as that really.

If that is your feeling and point, just say you are a hater and give good reasons for why. There are plenty. Or leave it alone. I don't buy the claim that is creeping in that Carroll somehow didn't help Mays be the best player he could be? To what end? I don't think it is worth a thread to try and trump up a claim of bad behavior where what the guy did was both reasonable and appropriate in the context of the less than pristine and altruistic world of college football.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Didn't Leinart hurt his draft stock quite a bit by staying in school as well?

Probably although we don't know if he would have been outed as a fraud after declaring as a junior. The combine, interviews, and workouts tend to do that.Some said Jake Locker could have been the #1 pick this year if he declared. How much money is that guy going to lose if he gets hurt, any flaws get outed in his game, and/or the collective bargaining agreement screws the rookie's salaries.

 

[Masked Vigilante]

Mays fell in the draft and was bitter about it. End of story.Just cause Carroll was an advocate of kids staying in school doesn't mean he can't think a Sophomore is a better player.

Follows Closely:Seahawks

Good catch bro.

 

[CalBear]

Didn't Leinart hurt his draft stock quite a bit by staying in school as well?

Yes, Leinart would almost certainly have been the #1 overall pick instead of Alex Smith if he had come out as a junior.On the down side, he would have had to play for an awful 49ers organization.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

Didn't Leinart hurt his draft stock quite a bit by staying in school as well?

Yes, Leinart would almost certainly have been the #1 overall pick instead of Alex Smith if he had come out as a junior.On the down side, he would have had to play for an awful 49ers organization.

On the plus side, he would have been living in San Fransisco instead of Phoenix. You really can't put a price on that.

 

[Keepers]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

 

[Dexter Manley]

I think this reflects very poorly on Pete Carroll's character. If this was an isolated incident, that would be one thing, but he tried to pull the same exact con on Sanchez, and fortunately for Mark, he was smart enough to not fall for it.

 

[CalBear]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

I manage a number of people. Let's say one of them is a 20-year-old intern with a lot of potential, and he comes to me and tells me that he has an opportunity to get a high-paying job somewhere else. Should I try to convince him to keep working for me for peanuts, blackball him and give him a bad reference for his new employer? No, a good and ethical person would say "congratulations, I wish you well in your new career."

 

[Sweet Love]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

I manage a number of people. Let's say one of them is a 20-year-old intern with a lot of potential, and he comes to me and tells me that he has an opportunity to get a high-paying job somewhere else. Should I try to convince him to keep working for me for peanuts, blackball him and give him a bad reference for his new employer? No, a good and ethical person would say "congratulations, I wish you well in your new career."

What if you were the manager (i.e. coach) of the intern group and were held to very high standards (your job depends on this group's success) and this guy was your "star". How would you feel then? Not saying what Carroll did is right, but there is a lot more riding on the coach's job (or manager in your case) than you allude to.

 

[Mark Davis]

I think any time you are a 1st round pick you owe it to yourself to come out. Especially in this case where Mays was top 10 to top 15 last year if he comes out. However, he also needed to realize Pete Carroll had only his own self interest at heart.

I don't blame Carroll for doing what it took to try and win. He knew USC was going to struggle more this year than they had in the past and he needed every player he could get. Carroll was looking out for himself and Mays should have done the same.

I'm a 49ers fan and have no problem saying that. Pete Carroll owed Taylor Mays nothing in the draft. It's on Taylor Mays now to try and make him regret that decision to pass him over. He needs to get to work putting all those physical tools he has together and learn to play the ball in the air much better. All the talent is there, he just needs to work on developing it. If he really wants to get back at Pete Carroll, that's the way to do it, and he will have twice a year in divisional games to show him again and again.

 

[CalBear]

What if you were the manager (i.e. coach) of the intern group and were held to very high standards (your job depends on this group's success) and this guy was your "star". How would you feel then? Not saying what Carroll did is right, but there is a lot more riding on the coach's job (or manager in your case) than you allude to.

I am a manager, and I hope I'm held to high standards. I assure you that trying to undermine people who want to leave the group is not the way to get the best performance. (Football example: Mays and Leinart both performed more poorly as seniors than juniors).Open positions are also opportunities for the organization.

 

[thecatch]

Carroll is a snake who will say/do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

It's as simple as that really.

If that is your feeling and point, just say you are a hater and give good reasons for why. There are plenty. Or leave it alone. I don't buy the claim that is creeping in that Carroll somehow didn't help Mays be the best player he could be? To what end? I don't think it is worth a thread to try and trump up a claim of bad behavior where what the guy did was both reasonable and appropriate in the context of the less than pristine and altruistic world of college football.

Mays' whole complaint is that Carroll didn't help him be the best player he could be. Mays is saying that Carroll kept telling him, "Your skills are fine, you are going to be a 1st rounder." Now Mays gets to the draft, and his stock is dropping like a rock because Mays can't do X, Y, and Z. IMO, Carroll absolutely had an obligation to let Mays know he needed to work on X, Y, and Z during the last season, especially given what Mays sacrificed to come back (in terms of being a lock to be picked in the first round). If Carroll didn't take that additional year to coach Mays up on his weaknesses, Carroll let Mays down.

 

[MG345]

Mays' whole complaint is that Carroll didn't help him be the best player he could be. Mays is saying that Carroll kept telling him, "Your skills are fine, you are going to be a 1st rounder." Now Mays gets to the draft, and his stock is dropping like a rock because Mays can't do X, Y, and Z. IMO, Carroll absolutely had an obligation to let Mays know he needed to work on X, Y, and Z during the last season, especially given what Mays sacrificed to come back (in terms of being a lock to be picked in the first round). If Carroll didn't take that additional year to coach Mays up on his weaknesses, Carroll let Mays down.

A lot of assumptions being made in this thread, based on one side of the story. Not point to this post directly, but the thread as a whole. Why would we assume that Carrol didn't try to coach Mays up to be the best player available? While Mays may have been a lock for the first round last year, that doesn't automatically mean that Carrol did him a disservice by advising him to stay an extra year. In general, most players will benefit from staying in school an extra year, getting one more year to develop before hitting the pros. And while Carrol probably knew that USC wasn't going to be as good as years past, that doesn't mean that he sandbagged Mays' NFL potential by advising him to stay. Maybe Carrol honestly believed that Mays would selected in the first round, despite any short comings that were shown his senior year? The other side to this is, no one twisted Mays' arm to stay at USC. He is a big boy, and can make decisions for himself. Carrol had absolutely no control over what Mays does or doesn't do, and to for Mays to be pissed off that Carrol lied to him is really missing the point. There was no way to predict one way or the other where Mays went in the draft, if he stayed in one more year or not. To put all of the blame at Carrol's feet is unfair. For the record, I am not a Carrol fan, and am still skeptical of the hiring despite the Hawks having a good draft. You may want to point to me being a Seahawks fan (as some have done to others in this thread) as a reason for me to automatically side with Carrol, but nothing could be further from the truth. I just think making a judgment on these situations of "my word against his" when only having one side of the story is a bit naive and short sighted.

 

[RUSF18]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

Complete BS. There are plenty of coaches who have agreed with players' decisions to leave early when it makes financial sense to do so.

 

[Sweet Love]

What if you were the manager (i.e. coach) of the intern group and were held to very high standards (your job depends on this group's success) and this guy was your "star". How would you feel then? Not saying what Carroll did is right, but there is a lot more riding on the coach's job (or manager in your case) than you allude to.

I am a manager, and I hope I'm held to high standards. I assure you that trying to undermine people who want to leave the group is not the way to get the best performance. (Football example: Mays and Leinart both performed more poorly as seniors than juniors).Open positions are also opportunities for the organization.

It is almost impossible to compare the two, but what if (and I don't necessarily believe it myself), Carroll really thought the kid could get drafted just as high or better. I highly doubt anyone saw Earl Thomas coming (kid is only 20) and Mays did have a bigger slide than anyone predicted (could have absolutely happened last year too).It is a really unique situation college coaches are in and I don't see a "right" way to do it (we have also seen kids leave early and be devistated when they are not selected high enough).

 

[SSOG]

My inital reaction after hearing about Mays running his mouth was "Thank God the Eagles picked Nate Allen instead of this clown", but I'm willing to soften my stance on Mays now that I understand the full context of his gripes. That said, I still think that Mays should've kept the smack talking to himself and proved it on the field, especially the two games a year vs Seattle, and I also think that Mays, Leinart or any of Carroll's previous players who cost themselves money by staying the extra year in school have only themselves to blame.

Not really. You can't expect a college junior with no draft experience to understand how the draft really works. They've got people whispering in one year that coming out is the right choice, that they'll make millions of dollars and life will be one big gravy train. They've got people whispering in the other ear to stay a year. They don't know who is right, they don't know who to trust, because they know that there's a great chance that these whispering voices are really just looking out for their own interests rather than the interests of the player. Eventually, they have to trust SOMEONE. It makes sense to trust your head coach, someone who you have worked for and sweated for and practically killed yourself for over the last 3 years, someone who promised to look after you when he recruited you, someone who has been around for a while rather than showing up just as you get successful. I don't blame Mays for being deceived by Carroll into believing that Carroll really had his best interests at heart. Mays was the victim of a con.For what it's worth, plenty of college coaches do have the best interest of their players in mind. I've heard of lots of college coaches who have advised a player to turn pro early if their draft stock is high enough. Hell, even Nick Saban, the infamous liar, has advised some of his juniors that they should probably go pro. So it's not like Carroll is just one in a long line of college coaches without any integrity.

Carroll preached staying in school as being best for the players - as do a lot of coaches, recognizing that its bettter for the program and may be better for the player - depending on whether he improves his draft stock enough to change his earnings curve over his career. I suspect all coaches talk more to the players about the advantages to the player than to the program, while caring more about the program benefits. But I don't see anything remarkable about Carroll's behavior here, or even particularly unusual.He told Mays the same as he told everyone - and probably believes its general that its better for kids to stay the extra year to go in as the best player they can. And Mays almost certainly became better over his senior season. That his ranking got worse was due to production - but there are no promises here and Mays stock probably fell due to weaknesses in coverage ability was exposed when those around him were worse.

First off, there's really no way to "improve your earning potential" when you're already projected as a top 10 pick as a safety. Seriously, look at the risk/reward there. Safeties rarely go in the top 5 (I think Berry was the second in the last 20 years), so if you're projected to go 10th, you're pretty much at your ceiling. There's pretty much no "reward" for coming back, because you're at your ceiling... but there's plenty of "risk"- as evidenced by Mays. In Leinart's case, it's even more glaring. What possible "reward" can there be when you're projected to be the #1 overall draft pick? How on earth could Leinart improve his draft stock? If Carroll is advising 3rd rounders to come back and improve their stock, then that's one thing, but when you're talking about guys who are already likely to go in the top half of the first round, there is really no way in hell they're going to improve their earnings curve over their career.As to your second point, that staying in school makes you a better player... I do agree that Mays is probably better today than he was a year ago. Of course, if he'd gone to the NFL a year ago, he'd probably be even better still. Look at Mark Sanchez. Do you think Mark Sanchez would be a better player right now if he'd stayed at USC than he is after joining the league? The coaching is better in the NFL than it is at college. The competition for spots is tougher. NFL teams practice two to three times as much as college teams because there are no NCAA rules against it. Third stringers in the NFL are better than most college players, so even scrimmages against the 3s provides tougher competition than actual games against teams like Washington State or Arizona. The schemes are more complicated and more nuanced. It's true that a year in football will make you a better player, but the gains will be DRAMATICALLY greater in the NFL than they will in college.So... not only will returning to college when you're projected to go in the 1st wind up hurting your long-term earning potential, it will also STUNT YOUR DEVELOPMENT as a player.

 

[Nagle2998]

The people that are ripping Mays for listening to Carroll and saying he should have know better have to realize this guy even with his freakish size is just a kid and looked up to Carroll. I agree maybe he shouldn't have said those things to the media but sometimes kids don't realize everything when they are talking from the heart.

 

[Banger]

Carroll is doing his job in both instances. In college he's trying to get his guys to stay in as long as possible to make him and the program more successful. At the next level you can't live by the same rules in college and I can understand him changing tacts and going after who he thought was a more talented player.

What I don't understand and I think was bush was his publicly calling a player out. That's childish garbage and really just shows he's full of crap. Even if you don't agree with him shut your mouth.

 

[PDX Pain]

When Carroll was telling Sanchez to stay in school it was obvious why, despite what Carroll was telling him. Carroll wanted his star QB to help USC win the following year. I had no problem with that. Carroll was not the Seahawks coach at the time.

When Carroll was telling Mays to stay in school it was obvious why, despite what Carroll was telling him. Carroll wanted his star Safety to help USC win the following year. I had no problem with that. Carroll was not the Seahawks coach at the time.

Sanchez made the right decision. Mays didn't. Carroll just wanted to retain talent. Just like 90% of HC's in the NCAA's. AMAZING!!!!

The real story here is to see if Mays can make Seattle pay for it. The Hawks get to see him twice a year, and I'm frightened about it. Mays may not be motivated for 16 games per year, but he'll certainly be motivated for two, and that sucks.

 

[cstu]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

Complete BS. There are plenty of coaches who have agreed with players' decisions to leave early when it makes financial sense to do so.

True, but when a coach encourages a player to stay in school the player should realize that maybe he's doing for his own interest, not the player's.

 

[SSOG]

It is fine to take advice from various sources but Mays had to understand (and this applies for all kids who are considering coming out early) that his coach is going to give advice that is biased with his own agenda, that is human nature.

Complete BS. There are plenty of coaches who have agreed with players' decisions to leave early when it makes financial sense to do so.

True, but when a coach encourages a player to stay in school the player should realize that maybe he's doing for his own interest, not the player's.

Like I said, though... the player has to trust someone. Either he trusts potential agents telling him to leave, or else he trusts his coach. Maybe Mays was naive for trusting his coach, but that doesn't mean he still wasn't the victim of a con.Pete Carroll's actions are far from SoP for college coaches. I'll use Urban Meyer as an example, because he's the only coach whose practices I know much about. Meyer puts his juniors in contact with a draft advisory board and actual NFL scouts and coaches. If they're likely first or second rounders, advises them to go. I've seen Nick Saban praise juniors for leaving early, too. A little bit of integrity and reciprocity certainly hasn't prevented those two coaches from building powerhouse programs to rival USC's.Edit: Stoops and Mack Brown also advise their juniors fairly. I don't know about Tressell, but he seems like he'd be a pretty straight shooter, too. If he is, then I'd say that 5 of the 6 best coaches of the last decade all looked after their own players while still building a powerhouse program. Then you have Pete Carroll the snake oil salesman.

 

[seahawk 17]

Mays has sourgrapes. Everybody knew Seattle was taking a safety. (There were only two on the roster) Pete drafted the best out of the two.