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McFadden Admits it was/is a Lis Franc Injury (1 Viewer)

Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.

 
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
 
Didn't Moss beat this injury years ago. I'm not sure how the severity compares but I don't think it's a death sentence.

 
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
 
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
They had no choice in letting Bush leave I don't think, they simply couldn't afford to pay him.
 
There are differing degrees of Lis Franc. Still ,that's serious. I don't see how you can't downgrade DMAC, but I wouldn't give up hope and he still has value because players have come back.

 
No reason to downgrade unless he had surgery. If it was just a sprain, he'll Be back to his old fragile self.

 
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
They had no choice in letting Bush leave I don't think, they simply couldn't afford to pay him.
I take it you have a firm grasp of the Raiders cap situation to make that statement. There are a number of player restructures that are ready to go, and Reggie McKenzie would get them done in a NY minute if needed. And there's still about $3.5M left under the cap to play with. They also could sign Tyvon Branch long term and free up more money there. They could have let Seymour walk last month and saved $7.5M. The Raiders aren't poor. It was their decision to move on from M. Bush. They could have decided to keep Bush for cheap (compared to the franchise tag), and in the end they didn't even try. Does that sound like a move a GM would make if he had any doubts about his franchise back?
 
IIRC, Westbrook's was a sprain, not a fracture and he didn't require surgery. I have no idea what DMAC did or needed but this can be (not saying it is on this case) a death knell for athletes.

Here is an informative link. It is old but has good illustrations.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/1998/0701/p118.html

I can't locate it now but there was another article I had at one time that talked about this injury with sports athletes and basically it said that if the degree of injury was serious, there was a good chance that the patient's range of motion and flexibility will be permanently compromised.

All in all, it kind of sounds like a potentially nasty injury. I guess anytime you have an injury that is named after a guy who used to do partial amputations on your foot when you got one of these; that's serious.

One other thing I took from the various readings is that this is one of those injuries that you have to give some good length of time to overcome. I guess that explains why DMAC was out so long last year and its probably a good thing for him that he has all offseason to recouperate.

 
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'finito said:
'Stephen Holloway said:
'Ketamine Dreams said:
'Amused to Death said:
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
They had no choice in letting Bush leave I don't think, they simply couldn't afford to pay him.
I take it you have a firm grasp of the Raiders cap situation to make that statement. There are a number of player restructures that are ready to go, and Reggie McKenzie would get them done in a NY minute if needed. And there's still about $3.5M left under the cap to play with. They also could sign Tyvon Branch long term and free up more money there. They could have let Seymour walk last month and saved $7.5M. The Raiders aren't poor. It was their decision to move on from M. Bush. They could have decided to keep Bush for cheap (compared to the franchise tag), and in the end they didn't even try. Does that sound like a move a GM would make if he had any doubts about his franchise back?
At the time Bush left the Raiders had $936 in cap room. It was reported heavily by the local media.
 
From the (limited) homework that I've done on this, it looks like McFadden never had surgery for this. That could be good (the injury wasn't severe enough to warrant it) or that could be bad (it was severe enough, but he didn't want to definitely miss the entire season and have a long, drawn out recovery, which he did anyway). If it was bad enough, and surgery wasn't performed, it may have gotten WORSE over the course of last season when he was trying to play again, but that's speculation.

I have no idea how bad of a lis franc he had, but they are never, ever good.

Duce Staley had the injury, and the surgery for it. He never came back to form.

Kevin Jones had the injury as well, but I don't know if he had surgery. He returned the following year, as the #2, but had another injury (unknown if it was related).

Westy sprained his, didn't have surgery, and returned fine.

Philip Rivers had one as well, and he's come back fine.

 
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'finito said:
'Stephen Holloway said:
'Ketamine Dreams said:
'Amused to Death said:
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
They had no choice in letting Bush leave I don't think, they simply couldn't afford to pay him.
I take it you have a firm grasp of the Raiders cap situation to make that statement. There are a number of player restructures that are ready to go, and Reggie McKenzie would get them done in a NY minute if needed. And there's still about $3.5M left under the cap to play with. They also could sign Tyvon Branch long term and free up more money there. They could have let Seymour walk last month and saved $7.5M. The Raiders aren't poor. It was their decision to move on from M. Bush. They could have decided to keep Bush for cheap (compared to the franchise tag), and in the end they didn't even try. Does that sound like a move a GM would make if he had any doubts about his franchise back?
At the time Bush left the Raiders had $936 in cap room. It was reported heavily by the local media.
They were never $936 from the cap. The media conveniently leaves out the $3M carry-over from the previous year. At the time Bush signed, they had close to $4M with the carryover. They could have easily worked out a deal for him if they wanted. Also, as I stated earlier, well before free agency, they had a choice to cut Seymour and free up $7.5M this year and they decided to pay him and later re-structured his deal. Fact is Bush was let go. Not wanted.
 
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'finito said:
'Stephen Holloway said:
'Ketamine Dreams said:
'Amused to Death said:
Brian Westbrook had one late in 2005. Pretty nice seasons in '06 and '07 averaging 5.1 and 4.8 per carry respectively. IDK if all LF injuries are the same though.
They are not all the same. There are sprains (of varying degrees), and fractures, which can also vary a bit. I think there is a chance that he isn't ready for the opener, or that he'll never be the same again, but that seems remote. A telling sign will be what they do in the draft.
I think that it was somewhat telling that they let Michael Bush leave (4 years $14 Million with $6.45 guaranteed) and then traded for Goodson.
They had no choice in letting Bush leave I don't think, they simply couldn't afford to pay him.
I take it you have a firm grasp of the Raiders cap situation to make that statement. There are a number of player restructures that are ready to go, and Reggie McKenzie would get them done in a NY minute if needed. And there's still about $3.5M left under the cap to play with. They also could sign Tyvon Branch long term and free up more money there. They could have let Seymour walk last month and saved $7.5M. The Raiders aren't poor. It was their decision to move on from M. Bush. They could have decided to keep Bush for cheap (compared to the franchise tag), and in the end they didn't even try. Does that sound like a move a GM would make if he had any doubts about his franchise back?
At the time Bush left the Raiders had $936 in cap room. It was reported heavily by the local media.
They were never $936 from the cap. The media conveniently leaves out the $3M carry-over from the previous year. At the time Bush signed, they had close to $4M with the carryover. They could have easily worked out a deal for him if they wanted. Also, as I stated earlier, well before free agency, they had a choice to cut Seymour and free up $7.5M this year and they decided to pay him and later re-structured his deal. Fact is Bush was let go. Not wanted.
They were able to sign Goodson for cheaper. And they may yet draft someone. Plus Taiwan Jones. I don't think we can conclude just from the fact that Bush was not renewed that Dmac is fine and fit.
 
Ask Gates how putting off sugery for a Lis Franc "sprain" worked out for him.

I think you have to downgrade DMC a little now and possibly more as additional details come out. If I recall, LF was specifically denied previously ... so is there more being held back now?

 
They were able to sign Goodson for cheaper. And they may yet draft someone. Plus Taiwan Jones. I don't think we can conclude just from the fact that Bush was not renewed that Dmac is fine and fit.
No one in their right mind goes into the season with potentially their only 2 RB options: a 3rd string running back with fumbling issues; and a raw 2nd yr back that has played a handful of games. Neither is considered a replacement for DMAC. This team goes only if DMAC goes, and it appears that Raiders management has put their trust in DMAC's continued progress. They know more about the truth of his health than any of us do.
 
Ask Gates how putting off sugery for a Lis Franc "sprain" worked out for him. I think you have to downgrade DMC a little now and possibly more as additional details come out. If I recall, LF was specifically denied previously ... so is there more being held back now?
Gates has plantar fascitis issues in his feet. Completely different injuries.
 
Ask Gates how putting off sugery for a Lis Franc "sprain" worked out for him. I think you have to downgrade DMC a little now and possibly more as additional details come out. If I recall, LF was specifically denied previously ... so is there more being held back now?
Gates has plantar fascitis issues in his feet. Completely different injuries.
:goodposting: Yeah, I've had PF issues from running, they are no fun at all. LF is totally different, and potentially far worse.
 
Ask Gates how putting off sugery for a Lis Franc "sprain" worked out for him. I think you have to downgrade DMC a little now and possibly more as additional details come out. If I recall, LF was specifically denied previously ... so is there more being held back now?
Gates has plantar fascitis issues in his feet. Completely different injuries.
I thought Gates tore his plantar fascia? Even worse than the chronic inflammatory plantar fascitis. What I worry about with a Lis Franc is any associated AVN (decreased blood flow) that will greatly delay the healing process. Across the board not a good injury to have.
 
As others have mentioned, not all LF injuries are the same. But this is a huge red flag for a RB, especially one that wasn't the most durable to begin with. This makes it very difficult to draft McFadden in the first round.

 
The other big issue in regards to DMAC is that the new coach isn't running the same offensive scheme that Hue ran that catered to DMAC. It might be possible that, injury aside, this new offense may not emphasize the running game as much or be beneficial to DMAC.

Don't the Raiders still have Marcel Reece? Not implying he is a legit option, just saw where someone said they only had two guys beyond DMAC. I'm sure they will add a guy late in FA or in the draft or camp. The more I think about it, it seems to be sending the message that maybe they just aren't super concerned about putting so much emphasis on running the ball now.

 
The other big issue in regards to DMAC is that the new coach isn't running the same offensive scheme that Hue ran that catered to DMAC. It might be possible that, injury aside, this new offense may not emphasize the running game as much or be beneficial to DMAC. Don't the Raiders still have Marcel Reece? Not implying he is a legit option, just saw where someone said they only had two guys beyond DMAC. I'm sure they will add a guy late in FA or in the draft or camp. The more I think about it, it seems to be sending the message that maybe they just aren't super concerned about putting so much emphasis on running the ball now.
Greg Knapp's the new OC in Oakland. He'll be running a hybrid of the WCO. It appears to be run heavy with Carson Palmer taking shots downfield and rolling pockets. As for the run game, they ran a power blocking system mixed with some zone blocking, but that's all being scrapped for the ZBS, similar to what they ran in Houston. It did wonders for Foster and Tate, and DMC is no less talented than those two. It all depends on his health, which is still a question mark. But the good news is has a lot more time to rest and heal. The other guy you're missing is Lonyae Miller, who rolled around the Cowboys PS last year but was picked up by new Raider GM Reggie McKenzie earlier this year. I think it's interesting because he's not a holdover from the previous regime, but one of Reggies guys. At 6 ft and 230, he's flashed some talent in open space and could be in the mix as well. Or he could be another practice squad guy too. Who knows? We have to wait and see what shakes out post-draft. I don't see the Raiders spending any more money on FA RB's going forward.
 
Ask Gates how putting off sugery for a Lis Franc "sprain" worked out for him.

I think you have to downgrade DMC a little now and possibly more as additional details come out. If I recall, LF was specifically denied previously ... so is there more being held back now?
Gates has plantar fascitis issues in his feet. Completely different injuries.
:goodposting: Yeah, I've had PF issues from running, they are no fun at all. LF is totally different, and potentially far worse.
Correct. ... and sorry for not being clear.Point was to be that Gates believed it was a one or two week "rest" concern. Then it was more ... and more ...

LF potentially being worse, it does not bode well to hear DMC "admit" it is LF now.

 
Point was to be that Gates believed it was a one or two week "rest" concern. Then it was more ... and more ... LF potentially being worse, it does not bode well to hear DMC "admit" it is LF now.
Point is it doesn't matter what the player believes. They all think they are supermen with amazing regenerative ability. And DMC wasn't allowed to "admit" anything in the prior regime. Even if he wanted to. The fact he's talking about it now, isn't some sort of sign that he was hiding it on purpose. It's just a sign that the new regime is being more candid with the press than the old one.
 
Point was to be that Gates believed it was a one or two week "rest" concern. Then it was more ... and more ... LF potentially being worse, it does not bode well to hear DMC "admit" it is LF now.
Point is it doesn't matter what the player believes. They all think they are supermen with amazing regenerative ability. And DMC wasn't allowed to "admit" anything in the prior regime. Even if he wanted to. The fact he's talking about it now, isn't some sort of sign that he was hiding it on purpose. It's just a sign that the new regime is being more candid with the press than the old one.
I disagree with a lot of your assertions in this thread.I think the Raiders let Bush go b/c he was too expensive, not because they wanted to.I think the team was clearly hiding the severity of DMC's injury last year.I think out of necessity, they are taking a ride him til he breaks approach with DMC this season. If he breaks, then so be it as a lost season. Next year, they will have draft picks, cap space, plus DMC's salary to rebuild.Lastly, I think Reggie McZ thinks much more highly of Mike Goodson than many on this board and considers him a decent worst case for 2012.
 
Point was to be that Gates believed it was a one or two week "rest" concern. Then it was more ... and more ... LF potentially being worse, it does not bode well to hear DMC "admit" it is LF now.
Point is it doesn't matter what the player believes. They all think they are supermen with amazing regenerative ability. And DMC wasn't allowed to "admit" anything in the prior regime. Even if he wanted to. The fact he's talking about it now, isn't some sort of sign that he was hiding it on purpose. It's just a sign that the new regime is being more candid with the press than the old one.
I disagree with a lot of your assertions in this thread.I think the Raiders let Bush go b/c he was too expensive, not because they wanted to.I think the team was clearly hiding the severity of DMC's injury last year.I think out of necessity, they are taking a ride him til he breaks approach with DMC this season. If he breaks, then so be it as a lost season. Next year, they will have draft picks, cap space, plus DMC's salary to rebuild.Lastly, I think Reggie McZ thinks much more highly of Mike Goodson than many on this board and considers him a decent worst case for 2012.
This seems to be the best thinking so far in this thread. The Raiders liked M Bush but could not fit him into their plans due to cap restraints. Goodson makes for a decent veteran back up in case (highly likely case) that DMC misses time again. The Raiders are in rebuilding mode. There is no other way to put it. Some good players are going to have to be let loose in that process. Obviously, some already have.
 
Just to add some facts to the converation

Return to Play Outcomes

Nunley and Vertullo (2oo2) showed RTP rates in 15 athletes following either conservative or surgical management:

◦Stage 1: Excellent outcome with conservative management and RTP between 11 and 18 weeks.

◦Stage 2 (Either B1 or B2): Mostly excellent outcomes with ORIF or CRIF, with athletes RTP between 12 and 20 weeks. Poor outcomes were noted in some athletes who displayed diastasis (>2mm) on X-ray and were managed non-operatively.

◦Complex Lisfranc Injuries: RTP time-frames is not well reported in significant injuries including significant fracture dislocations. However, it is safe to assume that these injuries are season ending, with likely RTP rates longer than Stage 2 injuries.

Take Home Messages

◦You must maintain a high clinical suspicion for these injuries

◦Early and accurate diagnosis is essential for Lisfranc joint injuries to ensure the quickest RTP

◦In many cases these are not massive injuries with a significant mechanism

◦Bone scan and WB X-Rays are the most useful diagnostic images for subtle Lisfranc injuries

◦Differentiation between Stage 1 and Stage 2 injuries is essential to ensure the best outcome for the athlete

Reported outcomes are excellent and RTP for lower grade injuries is 3 – 5 months

It seams the McFadden injury is of the Stage 1 or Stage 2 variety. If that is the case "reported outcomes are excellant". From all of the research I have done the key is diagnosing it early/accuratley. It is often misdiagnosed and that is what leads to the more severe injury that is frequently career ending.

 
Just to add another wrinkle... I do recall a point last season when DMC tried to do some "light running" and subsequently reaggravated the injury. Not sure what that means for his recovery time frame.

 
Just to add some facts to the converation

Return to Play Outcomes

Nunley and Vertullo (2oo2) showed RTP rates in 15 athletes following either conservative or surgical management:

◦Stage 1: Excellent outcome with conservative management and RTP between 11 and 18 weeks.

◦Stage 2 (Either B1 or B2): Mostly excellent outcomes with ORIF or CRIF, with athletes RTP between 12 and 20 weeks. Poor outcomes were noted in some athletes who displayed diastasis (>2mm) on X-ray and were managed non-operatively.

◦Complex Lisfranc Injuries: RTP time-frames is not well reported in significant injuries including significant fracture dislocations. However, it is safe to assume that these injuries are season ending, with likely RTP rates longer than Stage 2 injuries.

Take Home Messages

◦You must maintain a high clinical suspicion for these injuries

◦Early and accurate diagnosis is essential for Lisfranc joint injuries to ensure the quickest RTP

◦In many cases these are not massive injuries with a significant mechanism

◦Bone scan and WB X-Rays are the most useful diagnostic images for subtle Lisfranc injuries

◦Differentiation between Stage 1 and Stage 2 injuries is essential to ensure the best outcome for the athlete

Reported outcomes are excellent and RTP for lower grade injuries is 3 – 5 months

It seams the McFadden injury is of the Stage 1 or Stage 2 variety. If that is the case "reported outcomes are excellant". From all of the research I have done the key is diagnosing it early/accuratley. It is often misdiagnosed and that is what leads to the more severe injury that is frequently career ending.
:goodposting: Thanks for sharing this research. :thumbup:
 
This may be a naive question .... If DMC does have a serious Lisfranc problem, and the Raiders know it, why wouldn't the Raiders have traded DMC and retained Bush? Especially if they are in rebuilding mode (as some have suggested), it would seem logical to wring the most value out of DMC by trading him before the extent of the injury became known. DMC has 2 years left on a rookie contract at $5m per year, so he's pretty affordable to a team that needs a RB. If there is a significant injury problem, then by retaining DMC, the Raiders have reduced his trade value to zero. Even for untrained me, that seems like an illogical management move.

Is there some contract or salary cap reason they could not trade DMC? If not, then it seems the most logical conclusion is that the Raiders truly believe he has more value as a RB1 than Bush. Or perhaps there is some angle I'm not seeing?

 
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This may be a naive question .... If DMC does have a serious Lisfranc problem, and the Raiders know it, why wouldn't the Raiders have traded DMC and retained Bush? Especially if they are in rebuilding mode (as some have suggested), it would seem logical to wring the most value out of DMC by trading him before the extent of the injury became known. DMC has 2 years left on a rookie contract at $5m per year, so he's pretty affordable to a team that needs a RB. If there is a significant injury problem, then by retaining DMC, the Raiders have reduced his trade value to zero. Even for untrained me, that seems like an illogical management move.Is there some contract or salary cap reason they could not trade DMC? If not, then it seems the most logical conclusion is that the Raiders truly believe he has more value as a RB1 than Bush. Or perhaps there is some angle I'm not seeing?
Maybe they were worried what the trading partner's physical would reveal, which could effectively kill his value.
 
This may be a naive question .... If DMC does have a serious Lisfranc problem, and the Raiders know it, why wouldn't the Raiders have traded DMC and retained Bush? Especially if they are in rebuilding mode (as some have suggested), it would seem logical to wring the most value out of DMC by trading him before the extent of the injury became known. DMC has 2 years left on a rookie contract at $5m per year, so he's pretty affordable to a team that needs a RB. If there is a significant injury problem, then by retaining DMC, the Raiders have reduced his trade value to zero. Even for untrained me, that seems like an illogical management move.Is there some contract or salary cap reason they could not trade DMC? If not, then it seems the most logical conclusion is that the Raiders truly believe he has more value as a RB1 than Bush. Or perhaps there is some angle I'm not seeing?
There is no way to hide DMC's Lisfranc injury if it is serious, other teams will do their due diligence you can bet the farm on that. So that only leaves us with the conclusion that his Lisfranc injury is of the minor variety. And his contract is pretty affordable for what marquee running backs are commanding in salary these days. He's got two years at around $5M left, but his cap number is close to twice that number. The final year is voidable. So this may indeed be the last year he plays for the Raiders even though he will no doubt be part of next year's cap. I have stated my case before regarding Bush, and I've backed it up with facts. They have been no lower than $3.6 to $3.8M under the cap throughout free agency. They decided that trading for a cheap RB in Mike Goodson is a better option than throwing the balance of their cap space at M. Bush. The only reason Bush wanted to leave was to start somewhere, but settled to be a backup for less money than he originally thought he was due. But had the Raiders wanted him, he would have stayed. The Raiders simply showed no interest. They could have signed him if they wanted. Money wasn't an issue, cap space was there. They decided to prudently wait out the free agent market and pick up key lower priced guys to rebuild the defense. Now this is just my opinion, but I think the Raiders decision to let Bush go says less about them not liking Bush as it does they are confident that DMC will be ready for next season. If he's not, there won't be any sleight of hand to pawn him off during the draft, there just aren't any prize sucker GM's out there.
 

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