Otis
Footballguy
Listen Dodds, this isn't an all-or-nothing proposition. It's not either massive devistation or "ok fine Otis everything is fine let's just play frisbee there.". Jesus.
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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
Flashmasterg
Footballguy
According to Yahoo the workers have returned!!
bueno
In a class by himself
Geez David, have you had your annual physical yet? If not, ask your doctor to check your brain wave patterns.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't believe this. And it's very different from a Ham thread. Dodd is putting facts out there, and saying, "I'm worried about this, you should be too." We can debate how much one should be worried. Ham, on the other hand, puts in half-truths and myths from websites filled with crackpot theories, and then makes outright assumptions from thin air. Dodds hasn't done this. I think Dodds is overreacting, but he is overreacting to facts not to BS.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Why semd reporters to japan to bail on MAJOR breaking news like a worker exodus? Jesse stay with a story.
David Dodds
Administrator
I hear you Bueno
bueno
In a class by himself
Ever hold a match up to that little round thing in the ceiling?
Otis
Footballguy
It's all definitely black and white. Should we start colonizing Mars now given how bleak the situation is?Dodds>turn on CNN. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is your friend. He's been live all nut debunking the hysteria. HTH
Blue-Kun
Footballguy
Here's what I've seen. Grain of salt and all that. A rough translated timeline from news updates.
March 15th
00:41am: #2 reactor pressure and water levels as follows:
Reactor pressure: 1.72MPa
Reactor water level: Downscale
01:11am: #2 reactor vents presumed open:
Reactor pressure: 1.44MPa -> 0.92MPa
02:07am: #2 reactor pressure as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.63MPa
02:45am: #2 reactor pressure and water levels as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.653MPa
Reactor Water Level: Downscale
03:00am: At the #2 reactor, due to pressure in the drywell exceeding planned specifications, despite measures to lower pressure and inject water, pressure did not decrease.
05:00am: At the #3 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: (A) 0.24MPa
(B) 0.24MPa
Reactor Water Level: (A) -1800mm
(B) -2300mm
05:00am: At the #2 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.626MPa
Reactor Water Level: Downscale
06:14am: At the #4 reactor, a sound is heard and a hole is opened in the wall.
At the #3 reactor, there is smoke.
At the #2 reactor, an abnormal sound occurs at the suppression pool, in which pressure lowers, thus an abnormal event has occurred.
06:20am: At the #2 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.612MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -2700mm
06:42am: At the #2 reactor, there is the appearance of damage to the suppression pool (Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano’s Press Conference)
06:56am: Appearance of a deformation in the roof at the #4 reactor.
08:25am: White smoke confirmed from the 5th floor area of the #2 reactor building.
09:16am: In order to prevent hydrogen explosions in the vents at the #5 and #6 reactors, studies are made regarding removing panels from the walls of the buildings.
09:38am: A fire is confirmed at the 3rd floor northwest area of the #4 reactor building and fire fighters are notified.
10:01am: A request is made by the American Military to the Ministry of Economics, Trade and Industry regarding the fire at the #4 reactor.
10:21am: Regarding the fire at the #4 reactor, an electrical generator is set up to restart circulation. Presently, the American military and JSDF are preparing for fire fighting activities.
10:59am: An order is received by Fukushima Dai-ichi Offsite Center to evacuate. Evacuation to Fukushima Prefectural Government Building.
11:00am: Fire at #4 reactor appears, at first glance, to be extinguished.
11:25am: At reactor #2, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.27MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -1200mm
11:26am: Offsite center completes evacuation to Fukushima Prefectural Government Offices.
11:30am: At reactor #3, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.249MPa
Reactor Water Levels: (A) -1900mm
(B) -2300mm
11:31am: Fire at #4 reactor appears to be extinguished, however as there is oil nearby, the chance of reignition cannot be ruled out.
12:29pm: Confirmation of fire extinguished at #4 reactor (as personnel cannot enter the building, confirmation is made from outside)
1:24pm: Debris from the explosions cannot be removed sufficiently to allow fire fighting and transport vehicles to enter. Plans are made to continue efforts to remove debris through the night.
1:30pm: At reactor #2, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.608 MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -1700mm
March 15th
00:41am: #2 reactor pressure and water levels as follows:
Reactor pressure: 1.72MPa
Reactor water level: Downscale
01:11am: #2 reactor vents presumed open:
Reactor pressure: 1.44MPa -> 0.92MPa
02:07am: #2 reactor pressure as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.63MPa
02:45am: #2 reactor pressure and water levels as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.653MPa
Reactor Water Level: Downscale
03:00am: At the #2 reactor, due to pressure in the drywell exceeding planned specifications, despite measures to lower pressure and inject water, pressure did not decrease.
05:00am: At the #3 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: (A) 0.24MPa
(B) 0.24MPa
Reactor Water Level: (A) -1800mm
(B) -2300mm
05:00am: At the #2 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.626MPa
Reactor Water Level: Downscale
06:14am: At the #4 reactor, a sound is heard and a hole is opened in the wall.
At the #3 reactor, there is smoke.
At the #2 reactor, an abnormal sound occurs at the suppression pool, in which pressure lowers, thus an abnormal event has occurred.
06:20am: At the #2 reactor, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.612MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -2700mm
06:42am: At the #2 reactor, there is the appearance of damage to the suppression pool (Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano’s Press Conference)
06:56am: Appearance of a deformation in the roof at the #4 reactor.
08:25am: White smoke confirmed from the 5th floor area of the #2 reactor building.
09:16am: In order to prevent hydrogen explosions in the vents at the #5 and #6 reactors, studies are made regarding removing panels from the walls of the buildings.
09:38am: A fire is confirmed at the 3rd floor northwest area of the #4 reactor building and fire fighters are notified.
10:01am: A request is made by the American Military to the Ministry of Economics, Trade and Industry regarding the fire at the #4 reactor.
10:21am: Regarding the fire at the #4 reactor, an electrical generator is set up to restart circulation. Presently, the American military and JSDF are preparing for fire fighting activities.
10:59am: An order is received by Fukushima Dai-ichi Offsite Center to evacuate. Evacuation to Fukushima Prefectural Government Building.
11:00am: Fire at #4 reactor appears, at first glance, to be extinguished.
11:25am: At reactor #2, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.27MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -1200mm
11:26am: Offsite center completes evacuation to Fukushima Prefectural Government Offices.
11:30am: At reactor #3, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.249MPa
Reactor Water Levels: (A) -1900mm
(B) -2300mm
11:31am: Fire at #4 reactor appears to be extinguished, however as there is oil nearby, the chance of reignition cannot be ruled out.
12:29pm: Confirmation of fire extinguished at #4 reactor (as personnel cannot enter the building, confirmation is made from outside)
1:24pm: Debris from the explosions cannot be removed sufficiently to allow fire fighting and transport vehicles to enter. Plans are made to continue efforts to remove debris through the night.
1:30pm: At reactor #2, pressure and water levels are as follows:
Reactor Pressure: 0.608 MPa
Reactor Water Levels: -1700mm
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
they just needed a siesta
Otis
Footballguy
Impossible. That doesn't jibe with my endworld scenarios.
David Dodds
Administrator
People are making claims. I would like to see a link.
Otis
Footballguy
Explain to me why you need 100 people in that building right now.
bueno
In a class by himself
Maybe you should try different shtick though.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I question the motive of sending them back in there. All 6 reactors are in trouble and pressure rising in each. It has been said that the pumping of seawater is like trying to inject water into an inflated ballon. If the seawater is not making it to the inner vessel, what is the point of sending these 50 brave souls to their death? It looks more like a political statement, and that "hail mary" pass missed its mark.
Blue-Kun
Footballguy
bueno
In a class by himself
Hey Venus is uninhabitable and look at all the radiation it gets from the sun!
Das Boot
Footballguy
Coordinates: 51°16′20″N 30°13′27″E
David Dodds
Administrator
Well the fire supposedly started in #4, because the workers were too busy pumping sea water into the other reactors. And since they have stated these are the only 50 workers, what happens when some get tired? Is it ok not to spray the sea water for 6 hours or so? How long will these 50 people be needed in this task? Again, MAYBE there is an explanation that makes sense. I have my hunches that these people are being sacrificed. Wilked (the expert in this thread) said something very similar. Bueno believes it only takes a few people so everyone else was sent home.The issue I have with this whole thing is the big wall of secrecy. No updates. Clear people out 18 miles away. No readings given to the public. No explanation of actions or next steps. All talks with the media halted. Even our government is saying they are being kept out of the loop. Google Japanese Nuclear and you find a history of non-compliance in this area. A history on grossly under-reporting things from TEPCO, etc. The world seems to want to help here, but Japan is acting if something terribly wrong is happening. So yes I am concerned because to me it looks like a complete cover up (of something) is underway. And magically months from now when they say it's cool for people to go back to their homes, I think there are still a zillion questions which I doubt will ever be answered. If this kind of power is as safe as every says it is, it doesn't need to be run like this. And the very fact that's not happening, well I think it adds a huge cloud to the "safeness" of this kind of power. So for the people that think this "nukes" Nuclear power for awhile, I suspect it will indeed as the level of secrecy points to something that is far less "safe" than has been advertised.
Fennis
Footballguy
Its weird to me how much the bar moves each time there is bad news. Every time something progresses worse, the reaction among people like you is that OK, thats normal, its not really bad, its all to be expected. It's getting to the point that anything short of a complete meltdown ala China Syndrome indicates Dodds (and Fennis) are just overreacting nuts who should wear tin foil hats.**sig material
bueno
In a class by himself
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I suspect that you are right. The IAEA will need to wield more power in the future from a watchdog perch, with real enforcement action and economic sanctions imposed for non-compliance. People will mistrust nuclear, and that is a shame. But I can't blame them.
David Dodds
Administrator
Exactly. I am not sure if people are even watching the same thing unfold.At first: Loss of power, loss of backup power. Things getting hotter. Japan decides to push sea water in to cool one of the reactors off and vent off the steam. Yes that sucks that they will ruin the reactor, but it's old anyway. At least only one is damaged. And lucky for us, three reactors are offline.A bit later: A hydrogen explosion takes place removing a big part of the building. Japan tells us not to worry, that's not the containment area. And we now have issues in three of the six reactors.a bit later: Radiation found 100 miles away at sea by our Navy. Oh maybe that steam does contain a bit of Cesium and other harmful things.a bit later: More explosions. Japan indicating some level of breach has actually happened. Pictures now showing the tops of these reactors are missing. and those inactive reactors...Well they have major issues now too because all of the reactors are also holding spent rods as well. That area at the top....where that is where we store the spent rods. And they need to be under water constantly or they get super hot. and yes radiation is coming off them.a bit later: We are going to send everyone, but 50 workers home. Plus we are widening the evacuation zone and telling people to seal up their houses and not use the air conditioners. But the air is 100% safe. Believe us.a bit later: We are no longer talking to the media.a bit later: We are getting really high readings outside the plant. We are pulling everyone back.I am sure I have a missed a few events, but how anyone thinks this isn't getting worse and worse is beyond me. The Japan government lied (or with held critical info) from the very start and then finally created a gag order when it was obvious this situation isn't getting better.
bueno
In a class by himself
It doesn't justify the level of terror you seem to be experiencing.
Fennis
Footballguy
Which specfic couple of posts indicate terror?
bueno
In a class by himself
Most everything David has posted has undertones of emotional panic.
Fennis
Footballguy
maybe you're projecting your own repressed feelings on Dodds
bueno
In a class by himself
I do not appear to be the only one that thinks that.
bueno
In a class by himself
What do nuclear explosions have to do with nuclear reactors?
Fensalk
Footballguy
Here is a video of ABC News correspondent George Stephanopoulos interviewing Dr. Michio Kaku of the City University of New York. He says we are almost at the point of no return and Japan needs to mobilize its air force to be ready to sandbag and seal these reactors in a sarcophagus of concrete like they did at Chernobyl.
David Dodds
Administrator
Here is a great link explaining what we are likely dealing with (with lots of pics). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiXIODVlfXk
Rovers
Footballguy
Cooper should never ever leave the sudio again. In one of his first broadacats from Japan, he was freaking out after an explosion. "Oh, is it safe here? Should we pull back? Am I in danger here?" Panic in his voice. Since then all he does is stammer and stutter. He can't put a coherent sentence together. Go home Anderson. The news networks are encouraging panic as much as they can too, and they have an audience licking their chops, apparently preferring to live in fear and panic of ... nothing. Hours, hours after the workers were sent back in, they were still repoerting that they had evacuated. Then they replay those old reports all night long. I don't beleive the workers were gone for much more than an hour. There was a release, once it was over, they went back in. Is it serious? Yes. Is it catastrophic or likely to become so? No. The real problem is Japan hates to keep the public informed, and as a result, people want to beleive the worst. Japan has always been secretive, it's really a cultural thing. The sad thing is this story has over shadowed the real disaster, the real carnage, the real problem. Over 10,000 dead, no food, no water, and freezing to death. No search dogs, just guys walking around sticking poles into the debris. No matter, but OMG! The nuke plants! OMG!
Rovers
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
Thank you for that
David Dodds
Administrator
Using helicopters to drop water now.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/japan-quake-nuclear-helicopter-idUSTFD00669920110316
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/japan-quake-nuclear-helicopter-idUSTFD00669920110316
David Dodds
Administrator
another Reuter's piece:
Workers briefly abandon Japan nuclear plant as crisis worsens
http://www.reuters.c...E72A0SS20110316
Workers briefly abandon Japan nuclear plant as crisis worsens
http://www.reuters.c...E72A0SS20110316
Last edited by a moderator:
David Dodds
Administrator
Area photo from Wednesday showing these reactors looking pretty bad:
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi1_march16_2011_dg.jpg
http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi1_march16_2011_dg.jpg
Rovers
Footballguy
The bottom line here is simply this:
If they can keep the spent fuel rods under water, any kind of water, it should not get dangerous. Well, hazardous yes, but not catastrophically life and crop threatening outside of Japan. It seems like spent fuel rods are more dangerous that the reactors themselves are, because the reactors are still encased, it's the spent fuel rods that seem to be the larger radiation risk. They don't have the enclosures that the reactors do. They have to be kept under water, big time.
Reactor 4 is the only one I am worried about. The roof is still on it, so they don't know if the spent rods are under water, and even helicopters can't dump water on them, the roof is cracked, but in the way of aerial drops of sea water. On the other hand, there aren't a lot of spaces for hard radiation to escape since it still has an enclosure, even if it has holes and cracks in it.
In any case, the threat to the US is really very small. It's still a Japanese problem and is 99% likely to remain only a problem for Japan.
If they can keep the spent fuel rods under water, any kind of water, it should not get dangerous. Well, hazardous yes, but not catastrophically life and crop threatening outside of Japan. It seems like spent fuel rods are more dangerous that the reactors themselves are, because the reactors are still encased, it's the spent fuel rods that seem to be the larger radiation risk. They don't have the enclosures that the reactors do. They have to be kept under water, big time.
Reactor 4 is the only one I am worried about. The roof is still on it, so they don't know if the spent rods are under water, and even helicopters can't dump water on them, the roof is cracked, but in the way of aerial drops of sea water. On the other hand, there aren't a lot of spaces for hard radiation to escape since it still has an enclosure, even if it has holes and cracks in it.
In any case, the threat to the US is really very small. It's still a Japanese problem and is 99% likely to remain only a problem for Japan.
Otis
Footballguy
Bingo. Voice of reason on all points.
jamny
Footballguy
They were showing search and rescue crews (with dogs) yesterday on the news. The media might be focusing mostly on the nukes but I think the earthquake/tsunami reaction is well represented on the ground. It's not just people sticking poles into the ground. There's a full effort underway.
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Topes
Footballguy
Actually, these ads are par for the course. I dount they were increased in rotation at all. Energy industries have been lobbying the public directly through news program ads forever, but it's an increasing trend.
He's a true ham. Almost always acting. Almost always awful to watch.
JaxBill
Footballguy
very informative, thanks.
JAA
Footballguy
This may be the smartest thing said in this thread
