Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)

[bueno]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

 

[Redwes25]

watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

Did they say it melted out of Rector Vessel? Hopefully, the Containment holds as I have read that this Mark I system is thought to have some flaws.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

What evidence do you have that core catchers exist at these reactors?

It's supposed to be S.O.P.

Nuclear regulations are a living, breathing thing. What's SOP today wasn't 20 years ago; and what's SOP in twenty years probably isn't today.I have a feeling that such a containment feature were not built into these reactors during construction and I doubt you can add one after the initial fueling. I hope I am wrong.

 

[The Z Machine]

watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Form my understanding the radioactive steam isn't that bad since the half-life of the radioactive components in irradiated H20 is pretty short. As long as the core doesn't explode and spew pieces of the core around, the impact will still be far less than that at Chernobyl. Worse than TMI though most likely.Probably the greatest fear is that the molten core gets into the ground, polluting the groundwater there forever.

 

[bueno]

watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

Did they say it melted out of Rector Vessel? Hopefully, the Containment holds as I have read that this Mark I system is thought to have some flaws.

Really hard to figure out what is happening from talking heads, but the fact that they have evacuated non-essential personnel has me a bit worried. I am hoping it is precautionary until they can take some more readings and learn what has really happened.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Will there be a run on iodine tablets?

 

[The Z Machine]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

Thanks for the link, Sande. Good to have you back.Q: How they hell are they going to clean up a melted (or partially melted) core once it's finally cool. Also, how long will it take to cool down? Finally, what the heck are they going to do with the H20 that has come in contact with the melting core? I guess they could filter it and let it sit for a bit while the radioactivity wears off.

 

[CBusAlex]

In situations like these, you have to discern clearly what is happening and read between the lines.Accepting the Japanese government's press releases as gospel is too far in one direction.Thinking that this is going to cause radiation problems all over the world is too far in the other direction.Somewhere in the middle is probably right.

You've got one group of people, including nuclear physisicts and MIT scientists, describing how a nuclear plant works, what happens during a meltdown, how it is contained, and what kind of radiation is released. And then you've got another group of people basically saying "LOL they're cooling it with seawater, that can't be good?". These are not equally credible arguments. The truth doesn't need to be somewhere in the middle.

 

[bueno]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

As steam is vented, there will be a spike in radiation levels, so I would be surprised if that didn't happen, but the levels should dip substantially as the steam is dispersed. But if the venting cannot be controlled, then neither can the radiation levels. Doesn't mean millions will die of radiation poisoning, but radiation is perceived with a lot of trepidation. You can't see it, you can't feel it, yet it can kill you. That's why people like Dodds panic a bit. Radiation exposure standards are set real low though, and the best friend here is dilution (and a favorable wind).The way I look at it is once it is diluted, it is relatively harmless. Each of us consume a little tritium every time we have a cup of coffee (unless you have a well tapping water that hasn't seen the light of day for 80 years). Dilution of a short half-life isotope is the best way to mitigate any danger. So the big problem is loss of the ability to control emissions.

 

[Leviathan]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

I already had an emergency kit at home. I think that's something a lot of us Californians (living in earthquake areas) do. It has water, beef jerky, canned food, blankets, first aid kit, etc. I would rather have that stuff than fight giant lines at the supermarket when an order to flee is given for an earthquake, etc.

What about toilet paper. My buddy in Japan said that was one of the first things to sell out in Tokyo.

 

[renesauz]

As a former Navy Nuc, I've purposefully avoided the FFA and this discussion. EVen now, I've not read but three or four posts in here...by design.

This much I will say...A HUGE proportion of what's discussed in the media is being discussed by folks who either A: Have a political and/or economic stake in Nuclear power...one way or another. OR B: Have very limited first-hand knowledge and understanding of what Nuclear power is and how it works.

Folks in category B rely on info from folks in category A, and ROUTINELY deduce incorrect answers. It's very frustrating to listen to them. I haven't come here because it would be even more frustrating to debate the topic with folks who have half-formed opinions based on incorrect and often mis-leading data.

I've read the offical, confidential reports on both 3MI and Chernobyl. 3MI was almost a joke. Although serious, it's impact on both the environment and on the surrounding population was virtually non-existant. Chernobyl was a Sodium cooled reactor in a country that placed ZERO preium on safety...an almost completely differant kind of beast.

The problems in Japan are serious, but they do not pose nearly the threat that has been proposed. If a serious threat to the population were to be realized, it would have happened in the first 24 hours. Unlike Chernobyl, these reactors are, and have been, shut down since the quake. MOst "radiation" (I hate the term in this context because it's not strictly accurate) has already decayed away except for the SOLID fuel plates themselves. Plates which do not lend themselves easily into being "atomized" in such a way as to easily be propelled airborne.

Long term cleanup costs and localized environmental problems would be the most serious problems associated with "meltdowns" at this point...not serious exposure to the public. Evacuations are necessary precautions, but don't read too much into them. ANy radioactivity that has reached the public, or would have reached them, was primarily short lived stuff that will not pose a long term risk.

Nuclear power remains a far FAR safer fuel source then any carbon based sources (fuel oil, coal, etc.), and even with accidents like these, puts far fewer pollutants into the atmosphere then the carbon sources.

Look at it this way: We all know traveling by plane is safer than by car. The plane crash, like the nuclear accident...is far more dramatic, and has the potential for more immediate deaths...but the long term statistics don't lie...they're still safer....MUCH MUCH safer. Don't get sucked into the hype.

 

[David Dodds]

Serious question here by those much more informed than me:

The people that are holding the firehouses that are spraying seawater into these reactors, are they putting themselves in danger?  Will we find these guys likely dying of cancer because of their heroic actions to try and cool these reactors?

 

[mcintyre1]

Disclaimer, I can not attest to the accuracy of any of the statements in the quoted text, they are taken from Reddit in a discussion about the newest explosion at the plant. What I can say, is that the remarks about officials avoiding questions at the press conference was repeated by more than 1 poster on reddit in more than one topic, seemingly as the press conference was being shown on NHK.Link to original post

I was just listening to a nuclear reactor expert on Al Jazeera explain that things are much more grim than what the Japanese officials are saying at their press releases. The 2nd explosion happened as "water levels were so low they exposed the fuel rods", but why were the water levels so low suddenly? He said the only explanation was that the actual core was now leaking and boiling away all the water at a faster rate than what was previously being pumped in, causing the pressure to rise and a reactor container to explode.

This 3rd explosion now may only reinforce what he was saying: the core is leaking. All those brave men and women working around the clock to keep the reactors cool essentially know they are going to die within a month from the radiation exposure, but they are sticking with it to save their country. This is straight from the expert's mouth. He was visibly distraught because the physics of what the press releases are saying don't add up right.

Edit Two anchors on NHK TV, a news channel from Japan, have a little dry-erase board mock up of the nuclear reactor. They are describing the containment vessel with the fuel rods and the water cooling it off to the television. They just said that this 3rd explosion has damaged the containment vessel, and explained that the containment vessel is now the last vessel protecting the outside world from the radioactive material. They said this means that it is very likely that the radioactive material is now exposed and leaking after this 3rd explosion.

Edit 2 There is a conference being held right now by the people who are directly managing the cooling process, The Tokyo Electric Power Company. They are being very vague and keep "apologizing for the inconvenience and concerns" this situation is bringing about in the public. Media members keep asking questions about what actually happened and insisted multiple times "we just want the facts" because the explosion that just occurred was not from hydrogen build up and the officials are not answering their specific questions about the damage or its implications.

Edit 3 Tensions seem to be very high at the conference. The media is asking questions and the officials are still being vague and not giving them direct answers. To get an idea of their vague replies: Someone asked what the reasoning behind the workers reportedly evacuating because of the explosion. The official replied along the lines of "Because there was a sound." You can see why frustrations are increasing during this conference.

Edit 4 The conference ended with the officials saying the pressure inside the vessel has gone down and that they can increase the water levels, but the people at the conference keep asking how they can do all of this if the vessel is damaged and broken. It is my final analysis of that conference that the officials may not know the extent (if any) of the damage of the vessel, but the media at the conference feel like something is terribly wrong and could not get any direct answers from the officials.

Facts that can be taken from this conference: The explosion occurred near/in the "suppression chamber" (which is located at the bottom of the containment vessel and holds the fuel rods and the water). Extent of damage is not known at the moment, but ALL THE WORKERS AT THE PLANT THAT ARE NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH PUMPING WATER INTO THE CHAMBER have evacuated. The core is now feared to be leaking.

Edit 5 Water levels are only covering about 2.7m of the fuel rods in Reactor 2. This is "about half the length of the fuel rods." This suppression chamber is the "last line of defense" for Reactor 2, and it is now damaged.

Here is the diagram the Japanese news anchors are showing of the suppression chamber, where the explosion occurred.

Edit 6 Now the anchors have a guest on and they are discussing that things are very serious. They are criticizing the Tokyo Electric Power Company for being very unclear at their press conference and how the officials did not share enough information with the public to explain what the implications of this explosion means. The anchors are now concerned for the safety of the people of Japan because of how vague the Tokyo Electric Power Company was during its explanation.

Edit 7 Officials now report they are observing a vapor coming from the top of Reactor 3. They are unsure of what this vapor/smoke is.

Edit 8 The US Government has now said that Japan has sent out a request for help with cooling the reactors.

Edit 9 The pressure in the suppression chamber where the cooling process occurs is now down to 1 ATM. The expert guest on NHK TV has said that this may very well mean that cracks have occurred in the chamber. 1 ATM is the normal pressure you feel everywhere on Earth, and for a SEALED suppression chamber that contains boiling water from the heat emitted from the fuel rods, the pressure should be much higher from all the vapor and gas forming inside the chamber and having no where to go. If the atmospheric pressure inside the chamber is the same as outside, this almost definitely means there are cracks in the chamber.

 

[bueno]

As a former Navy Nuc, I've purposefully avoided the FFA and this discussion. EVen now, I've not read but three or four posts in here...by design.

This much I will say...A HUGE proportion of what's discussed in the media is being discussed by folks who either A: Have a political and/or economic stake in Nuclear power...one way or another. OR B: Have very limited first-hand knowledge and understanding of what Nuclear power is and how it works.

Folks in category B rely on info from folks in category A, and ROUTINELY deduce incorrect answers. It's very frustrating to listen to them. I haven't come here because it would be even more frustrating to debate the topic with folks who have half-formed opinions based on incorrect and often mis-leading data.

I've read the offical, confidential reports on both 3MI and Chernobyl. 3MI was almost a joke. Although serious, it's impact on both the environment and on the surrounding population was virtually non-existant. Chernobyl was a Sodium cooled reactor in a country that placed ZERO preium on safety...an almost completely differant kind of beast.

The problems in Japan are serious, but they do not pose nearly the threat that has been proposed. If a serious threat to the population were to be realized, it would have happened in the first 24 hours. Unlike Chernobyl, these reactors are, and have been, shut down since the quake. MOst "radiation" (I hate the term in this context because it's not strictly accurate) has already decayed away except for the SOLID fuel plates themselves. Plates which do not lend themselves easily into being "atomized" in such a way as to easily be propelled airborne.

Long term cleanup costs and localized environmental problems would be the most serious problems associated with "meltdowns" at this point...not serious exposure to the public. Evacuations are necessary precautions, but don't read too much into them. ANy radioactivity that has reached the public, or would have reached them, was primarily short lived stuff that will not pose a long term risk.

Nuclear power remains a far FAR safer fuel source then any carbon based sources (fuel oil, coal, etc.), and even with accidents like these, puts far fewer pollutants into the atmosphere then the carbon sources.

Look at it this way: We all know traveling by plane is safer than by car. The plane crash, like the nuclear accident...is far more dramatic, and has the potential for more immediate deaths...but the long term statistics don't lie...they're still safer....MUCH MUCH safer. Don't get sucked into the hype.

Um... While I agree with you that the risk to the public has been somewhat overblown by the media, Iodine 151 has a half life of 8 days. Hasn't been that long yet.

 

[SofaKings]

As a former Navy Nuc, I've purposefully avoided the FFA and this discussion. EVen now, I've not read but three or four posts in here...by design.This much I will say...A HUGE proportion of what's discussed in the media is being discussed by folks who either A: Have a political and/or economic stake in Nuclear power...one way or another. OR B: Have very limited first-hand knowledge and understanding of what Nuclear power is and how it works. Folks in category B rely on info from folks in category A, and ROUTINELY deduce incorrect answers. It's very frustrating to listen to them. I haven't come here because it would be even more frustrating to debate the topic with folks who have half-formed opinions based on incorrect and often mis-leading data.I've read the offical, confidential reports on both 3MI and Chernobyl. 3MI was almost a joke. Although serious, it's impact on both the environment and on the surrounding population was virtually non-existant. Chernobyl was a Sodium cooled reactor in a country that placed ZERO preium on safety...an almost completely differant kind of beast.The problems in Japan are serious, but they do not pose nearly the threat that has been proposed. If a serious threat to the population were to be realized, it would have happened in the first 24 hours. Unlike Chernobyl, these reactors are, and have been, shut down since the quake. MOst "radiation" (I hate the term in this context because it's not strictly accurate) has already decayed away except for the SOLID fuel plates themselves. Plates which do not lend themselves easily into being "atomized" in such a way as to easily be propelled airborne.Long term cleanup costs and localized environmental problems would be the most serious problems associated with "meltdowns" at this point...not serious exposure to the public. Evacuations are necessary precautions, but don't read too much into them. ANy radioactivity that has reached the public, or would have reached them, was primarily short lived stuff that will not pose a long term risk.Nuclear power remains a far FAR safer fuel source then any carbon based sources (fuel oil, coal, etc.), and even with accidents like these, puts far fewer pollutants into the atmosphere then the carbon sources.Look at it this way: We all know traveling by plane is safer than by car. The plane crash, like the nuclear accident...is far more dramatic, and has the potential for more immediate deaths...but the long term statistics don't lie...they're still safer....MUCH MUCH safer. Don't get sucked into the hype.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

 

[mcintyre1]

Also a completely unconfirmed off-hand comment I heard from an "analyst" on CNN (who did not really sound like he knew anything about reactors- he was some kind of 'Security Analyst') mentioned that a couple of workers from the plant have died of radiation exposure. That seems a bit quick to have happened already, so I'll take that comment with a giant bag of salt.

 

[renesauz]

Serious question here by those much more informed than me:The people that are holding the firehouses that are spraying seawater into these reactors, are they putting themselves in danger?  Will we find these guys likely dying of cancer because of their heroic actions to try and cool these reactors?

Don't really know...because I don't completely trust the official reports of what EXACTLY they are doing. How close are they to the fuel? Is it exposed or sheilded? Has it "melted" at all, or is it still relatively intact? Are they spraying directly into the reactor vessel, or just keeping the entire building flooded (a viable tactic)?It's very possible that they are recieving serious doses of radiation, but I strongly suspect that they are not lethal, or even close to lethal, doses."Dying of cancer" is one of those misleading things about radiation. INcreased lifetime radiation increased likelihood of cancer, but this is a nebulous risk. Equate it to concussions in football....just because you picked up 50 REM of radiation doesn't mean your getting cancer. "Radiation sickness" can occur with as little as 200 REM (in a short period), but this is not cancer per se. 500 REM is (or used to be) the LD50 (that point where 50% deaths are expected....short term from radiation sickness.) Such a dose would more then triple lifetime cancer risks.

 

[bueno]

Serious question here by those much more informed than me:The people that are holding the firehouses that are spraying seawater into these reactors, are they putting themselves in danger? Will we find these guys likely dying of cancer because of their heroic actions to try and cool these reactors?

Hydrogen explosions are dangerous, but the workers aren't holding fire hoses - the seawater is being pumped into the reactor. It's not like there are firemen with hoses or anything.They will get more exposure, and it may be that it increases their risk slightly. But its not a Madame Currie type of thing.

 

[mcintyre1]

From BBC live website:

Details are now emberging about radiation levels after the blast at Fukushima's reactor 2 at 0610 local time (2110 GMT Monday). Tokyo Electric officials say that one hour of exposure at the nuclear plant would be equivalent to eight times at what a person might experience naturally during the year.

 

[Steve Tasker]

As a former Navy Nuc, I've purposefully avoided the FFA and this discussion. EVen now, I've not read but three or four posts in here...by design.This much I will say...A HUGE proportion of what's discussed in the media is being discussed by folks who either A: Have a political and/or economic stake in Nuclear power...one way or another. OR B: Have very limited first-hand knowledge and understanding of what Nuclear power is and how it works. Folks in category B rely on info from folks in category A, and ROUTINELY deduce incorrect answers. It's very frustrating to listen to them. I haven't come here because it would be even more frustrating to debate the topic with folks who have half-formed opinions based on incorrect and often mis-leading data.I've read the offical, confidential reports on both 3MI and Chernobyl. 3MI was almost a joke. Although serious, it's impact on both the environment and on the surrounding population was virtually non-existant. Chernobyl was a Sodium cooled reactor in a country that placed ZERO preium on safety...an almost completely differant kind of beast.The problems in Japan are serious, but they do not pose nearly the threat that has been proposed. If a serious threat to the population were to be realized, it would have happened in the first 24 hours. Unlike Chernobyl, these reactors are, and have been, shut down since the quake. MOst "radiation" (I hate the term in this context because it's not strictly accurate) has already decayed away except for the SOLID fuel plates themselves. Plates which do not lend themselves easily into being "atomized" in such a way as to easily be propelled airborne.Long term cleanup costs and localized environmental problems would be the most serious problems associated with "meltdowns" at this point...not serious exposure to the public. Evacuations are necessary precautions, but don't read too much into them. ANy radioactivity that has reached the public, or would have reached them, was primarily short lived stuff that will not pose a long term risk.Nuclear power remains a far FAR safer fuel source then any carbon based sources (fuel oil, coal, etc.), and even with accidents like these, puts far fewer pollutants into the atmosphere then the carbon sources.Look at it this way: We all know traveling by plane is safer than by car. The plane crash, like the nuclear accident...is far more dramatic, and has the potential for more immediate deaths...but the long term statistics don't lie...they're still safer....MUCH MUCH safer. Don't get sucked into the hype.

 

[renesauz]

Also a completely unconfirmed off-hand comment I heard from an "analyst" on CNN (who did not really sound like he knew anything about reactors- he was some kind of 'Security Analyst') mentioned that a couple of workers from the plant have died of radiation exposure. That seems a bit quick to have happened already, so I'll take that comment with a giant bag of salt.

Unfortunately, this is possibly true. They certainly had/have some containment issues, and serious doses to workers in the immediate vicinity are likely. That should not be taken to mean serious doses have been given to the public.

 

[bueno]

From BBC live website:

Details are now emberging about radiation levels after the blast at Fukushima's reactor 2 at 0610 local time (2110 GMT Monday). Tokyo Electric officials say that one hour of exposure at the nuclear plant would be equivalent to eight times at what a person might experience naturally during the year.

Kind of like what a frequent flier might experience then?

 

[Addai's Adidas]

Explosion in #2 tonight.

 

[Sudsy]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

As steam is vented, there will be a spike in radiation levels, so I would be surprised if that didn't happen, but the levels should dip substantially as the steam is dispersed. But if the venting cannot be controlled, then neither can the radiation levels. Doesn't mean millions will die of radiation poisoning, but radiation is perceived with a lot of trepidation. You can't see it, you can't feel it, yet it can kill you. That's why people like Dodds panic a bit. Radiation exposure standards are set real low though, and the best friend here is dilution (and a favorable wind).The way I look at it is once it is diluted, it is relatively harmless. Each of us consume a little tritium every time we have a cup of coffee (unless you have a well tapping water that hasn't seen the light of day for 80 years). Dilution of a short half-life isotope is the best way to mitigate any danger. So the big problem is loss of the ability to control emissions.

You've talked with my wife.

 

[renesauz]

From BBC live website:

Details are now emberging about radiation levels after the blast at Fukushima's reactor 2 at 0610 local time (2110 GMT Monday). Tokyo Electric officials say that one hour of exposure at the nuclear plant would be equivalent to eight times at what a person might experience naturally during the year.

If accurate, this....while serious....means that someone could spend many days in that immediate vicinity before coming down with radiation sickness. I imagine they'd rotate workers to limit exposures, but levels such as this are certainly not that difficult to work around. To quanitify...most people are exposed to about 10 millirem per month. That's only 120 millirem per year (not including medical X-rays, etc.) Regular beach goers could be 4-6 times that figure. 8 X 120 is less than 1 REM per hour. Serious radiation work, but very easy to work around.

 

[bueno]

There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.

Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

Looking.

Check the comments section here.

As steam is vented, there will be a spike in radiation levels, so I would be surprised if that didn't happen, but the levels should dip substantially as the steam is dispersed. But if the venting cannot be controlled, then neither can the radiation levels. Doesn't mean millions will die of radiation poisoning, but radiation is perceived with a lot of trepidation. You can't see it, you can't feel it, yet it can kill you. That's why people like Dodds panic a bit. Radiation exposure standards are set real low though, and the best friend here is dilution (and a favorable wind).The way I look at it is once it is diluted, it is relatively harmless. Each of us consume a little tritium every time we have a cup of coffee (unless you have a well tapping water that hasn't seen the light of day for 80 years). Dilution of a short half-life isotope is the best way to mitigate any danger. So the big problem is loss of the ability to control emissions.

You've talked with my wife.

Pray that we didn't do more than talk.

 

[David Dodds]

If the numbers posted in this report are true, do we have a problem?

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gamma-radiation-fukushima-downwind-ibaraki-disclosed-30-times-above-normal

based on a N, NE and NNE wind direction (where it originates), meaning all coming from Fukushima, with a normal reading in the 80 nGy/h range, the city of Kounosu Naka is at 3,024, Kadobe Naka is at 2,416, Isobe Hitachioota is at 1,213 and many others are in the mid to upper triple digit range! Again, this is based on wind coming out of Fukushima and ultimately headed toward the capital. Indicatively, normal terrestrial plus cosmic gamma radiation is about 80 nGy/h.

 

[renesauz]

Um... While I agree with you that the risk to the public has been somewhat overblown by the media, Iodine 151 has a half life of 8 days. Hasn't been that long yet.

8 days is very short. It means that every 8 days, HALF the radioactivity is gone. By contrast, Uranium 235 has a half life measured in millions of years. Iodine is a product that would be released in great quantities in a large loss of coolant to the atmosphere. HOwever..it's also easy to counter That's what Iodine tablets are for. Iodine concentrates in the thyroid. A temporary overdose of non-radioactive Iodine prevents the radioactive stuff from concentrating in the Thyroid, and very effectively protects folks from this element. They've passed these tablets out to those in the immediate area, but I suspect they've done so more for emotional and mental comfort than an actual need.

 

[bueno]

If the numbers posted in this report are true, do we have a problem?

http://www.zerohedge...es-above-normal

based on a N, NE and NNE wind direction (where it originates), meaning all coming from Fukushima, with a normal reading in the 80 nGy/h range, the city of Kounosu Naka is at 3,024, Kadobe Naka is at 2,416, Isobe Hitachioota is at 1,213 and many others are in the mid to upper triple digit range! Again, this is based on wind coming out of Fukushima and ultimately headed toward the capital. Indicatively, normal terrestrial plus cosmic gamma radiation is about 80 nGy/h.

I am confused, as the sites mentioned are south of the power plants and the wind is blowing to the northeast.

 

[bueno]

Um... While I agree with you that the risk to the public has been somewhat overblown by the media, Iodine 151 has a half life of 8 days. Hasn't been that long yet.

8 days is very short. It means that every 8 days, HALF the radioactivity is gone. By contrast, Uranium 235 has a half life measured in millions of years. Iodine is a product that would be released in great quantities in a large loss of coolant to the atmosphere. HOwever..it's also easy to counter That's what Iodine tablets are for. Iodine concentrates in the thyroid. A temporary overdose of non-radioactive Iodine prevents the radioactive stuff from concentrating in the Thyroid, and very effectively protects folks from this element. They've passed these tablets out to those in the immediate area, but I suspect they've done so more for emotional and mental comfort than an actual need.

I know what half life is. My point is that it hasn't been 8 days so your assertion that "most radiation has decayed away" is incorrect. In fact, as it has not been 8 days since shutdown, over half of the iodine is still around. Radioactive cesium is also still around. The half-life of uranium is not relevant as uranium isn't one of the daughter products causing concern. The fact that the core is still being heated as evidence that there are significant daughter products still present. The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

 

[renesauz]

If the numbers posted in this report are true, do we have a problem?http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gamma-radiation-fukushima-downwind-ibaraki-disclosed-30-times-above-normalbased on a N, NE and NNE wind direction (where it originates), meaning all coming from Fukushima, with a normal reading in the 80 nGy/h range, the city of Kounosu Naka is at 3,024, Kadobe Naka is at 2,416, Isobe Hitachioota is at 1,213 and many others are in the mid to upper triple digit range! Again, this is based on wind coming out of Fukushima and ultimately headed toward the capital. Indicatively, normal terrestrial plus cosmic gamma radiation is about 80 nGy/h.

It indicates that coolant has indeed been leaked to the atmosphere, but does not indicate a long term problem. Temporary (a week or so) doses 30X normal will not cause ANY immediate loss of life. It will increase the likelihood of any specific exposed individual to contract cancer at some lifetime point by a very amount. IE: If 50,000 people would have gotten and died of cancer in the next 25 years normally, that figure might rise to 50,050. (Perhaps a little higher, but such things are very hard to quantify) Serious? Yes. But small enough that the risk doesn't even remotely approach the hype.

 

[bueno]

If the numbers posted in this report are true, do we have a problem?

http://www.zerohedge...es-above-normal

based on a N, NE and NNE wind direction (where it originates), meaning all coming from Fukushima, with a normal reading in the 80 nGy/h range, the city of Kounosu Naka is at 3,024, Kadobe Naka is at 2,416, Isobe Hitachioota is at 1,213 and many others are in the mid to upper triple digit range! Again, this is based on wind coming out of Fukushima and ultimately headed toward the capital. Indicatively, normal terrestrial plus cosmic gamma radiation is about 80 nGy/h.

It indicates that coolant has indeed been leaked to the atmosphere, but does not indicate a long term problem. Temporary (a week or so) doses 30X normal will not cause ANY immediate loss of life. It will increase the likelihood of any specific exposed individual to contract cancer at some lifetime point by a very amount. IE: If 50,000 people would have gotten and died of cancer in the next 25 years normally, that figure might rise to 50,050. (Perhaps a little higher, but such things are very hard to quantify) Serious? Yes. But small enough that the risk doesn't even remotely approach the hype.

Right answer, but I am still confused because the meteorological reports show wind blowing from south to north.

 

[renesauz]

Um... While I agree with you that the risk to the public has been somewhat overblown by the media, Iodine 151 has a half life of 8 days. Hasn't been that long yet.

8 days is very short. It means that every 8 days, HALF the radioactivity is gone. By contrast, Uranium 235 has a half life measured in millions of years. Iodine is a product that would be released in great quantities in a large loss of coolant to the atmosphere. HOwever..it's also easy to counter That's what Iodine tablets are for. Iodine concentrates in the thyroid. A temporary overdose of non-radioactive Iodine prevents the radioactive stuff from concentrating in the Thyroid, and very effectively protects folks from this element. They've passed these tablets out to those in the immediate area, but I suspect they've done so more for emotional and mental comfort than an actual need.

I know what half life is. My point is that it hasn't been 8 days so your assertion that "most radiation has decayed away" is incorrect. In fact, as it has not been 8 days since shutdown, over half of the iodine is still around. Radioactive cesium is also still around. The half-life of uranium is not relevant as uranium isn't one of the daughter products causing concern. The fact that the core is still being heated as evidence that there are significant daughter products still present. The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

Iodine is NOT the only radioactive element present in the coolant of an operating reactor. The radiation emitted from coolant 10 minutes after shutdown is less than 10% of the radiation emmited from coolant seconds after passing through an operating reactor.Iodine is the immediate concern in loss of coolant because its half life is long enough to get to people and is in great enough quantities to matter...but it is still a short lived isotope.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

I must of missed it. Where is the evidence that fission has stopped?

 

[renesauz]

Off to bed. I may or may not poke back in at some point. Don't let the hype scare you too much!

 

[renesauz]

The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

I must of missed it. Where is the evidence that fission has stopped?

Fission has stopped. Fuel rods were inserted and they preclude fission. Fission in CHernobyl didn't stop because of an intensely differant design.Rods are actually a type of poisen to fission...they absorb free neutrons...no free nuetrons...no fission.bed time

 

[David Dodds]

3rd day, 3rd explosion, 3rd ruined reactor with the salt water flush. All is well.

 

[bueno]

Um... While I agree with you that the risk to the public has been somewhat overblown by the media, Iodine 151 has a half life of 8 days. Hasn't been that long yet.

8 days is very short. It means that every 8 days, HALF the radioactivity is gone. By contrast, Uranium 235 has a half life measured in millions of years. Iodine is a product that would be released in great quantities in a large loss of coolant to the atmosphere. HOwever..it's also easy to counter That's what Iodine tablets are for. Iodine concentrates in the thyroid. A temporary overdose of non-radioactive Iodine prevents the radioactive stuff from concentrating in the Thyroid, and very effectively protects folks from this element. They've passed these tablets out to those in the immediate area, but I suspect they've done so more for emotional and mental comfort than an actual need.

I know what half life is. My point is that it hasn't been 8 days so your assertion that "most radiation has decayed away" is incorrect. In fact, as it has not been 8 days since shutdown, over half of the iodine is still around. Radioactive cesium is also still around. The half-life of uranium is not relevant as uranium isn't one of the daughter products causing concern. The fact that the core is still being heated as evidence that there are significant daughter products still present. The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

Iodine is NOT the only radioactive element present in the coolant of an operating reactor. The radiation emitted from coolant 10 minutes after shutdown is less than 10% of the radiation emmited from coolant seconds after passing through an operating reactor.Iodine is the immediate concern in loss of coolant because its half life is long enough to get to people and is in great enough quantities to matter...but it is still a short lived isotope.

I realize I am being a purist here, but I think it is necessary to do so, especially given the potential for an anti-nuclear groundswell. Those of us who understand nuclear technology better than the general public need to be precise or credibility is lost. You were imprecise. I called you on it. Iodine is a short-lived isotope: true.Over half of it is gone: false.Isotopes that have half-lives measured in seconds are not really relevant, as those were gone quickly. However one also has to recognize that there is a decay chain. You split an atom, and the daughters decay. Fission products are dependent on the type of fission reaction, but if all were short-lived, then we wouldn't have pieces of nuclear reactors stored at INEL.

 

[jamny]

Explosion in #2 tonight.

That's so 7 o'clock.

 

[bueno]

The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

I must of missed it. Where is the evidence that fission has stopped?

Fission has stopped. Fuel rods were inserted and they preclude fission. Fission in CHernobyl didn't stop because of an intensely differant design.Rods are actually a type of poisen to fission...they absorb free neutrons...no free nuetrons...no fission.bed time

Goodnite. when you wake up, maybe you can explain how fuel rods preclude fission.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

The alternative is that fission was not shut down, but that appears not to be the case.

I must of missed it. Where is the evidence that fission has stopped?

Fission has stopped. Fuel rods were inserted and they preclude fission. Fission in CHernobyl didn't stop because of an intensely differant design.Rods are actually a type of poisen to fission...they absorb free neutrons...no free nuetrons...no fission.bed time

I heard a report that said that there is still low level fission and about 6% power in the core after reactor scram. The heat of this reaction needs to still be accounted for and taken away or the pressure increases to unsafe levels. Maybe I misunderstood this report. Or I took it in the wrong context."Intensely different design" I gather what you mean is the difference between graphite moderated water cooled and the water cooled water moderated reactor. In the Chernobyl accident, compounded with no shielding, the reactor's radioactive levels increased in proportion of loss of cooling, and out of control. In this type of GE reactor, radioactive levels decrease in proportion to loss of cooling.

 

[Fennis]

Sources tell NBC News the blast breached the container; radiation leaking

 

[David Dodds]

Nikeii down another 6% today after a similar tumble yesterday...Uggh.

 

[Fennis]

someone please tell me when its OK to be concerned. Because I am going with now.

 

[timschochet]

someone please tell me when its OK to be concerned. Because I am going with now.

What specifically do you fear is going to happen?

 

[3C's]

Sources tell NBC News the blast breached the container; radiation leaking

Is Dodds the source?I hope the source, whoever it is is wrong...but I thought I heard speculation of the same a bit earlier.

 

[Fennis]

someone please tell me when its OK to be concerned. Because I am going with now.

What specifically do you fear is going to happen?

More radiation leaking than eating bananas or smoking a pack of cigarettes.That the situation is still extremely dangerous.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Sources tell NBC News the blast breached the container; radiation leaking

Is Dodds the source?I hope the source, whoever it is is wrong...but I thought I heard speculation of the same a bit earlier.

CNN is waffling on confirming. It isnt good that they wont deny the report either.