The Z Machine
Footballguy
What type and from where? Radioactive steam? If so, that's not a huge concern. If it's other fission products that's some bad news.No one answered my question RE cleanup of a melted core, BTW.
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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
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Insoxicated
Getting close to buying territory... another 6-7% and I'm diving in IMO.
Fennis
Footballguy
If you're in the market for radioactive, underwater, broken bridges perhaps I can hook you up.
bueno
In a class by himself
You let it cool and then you isolate it from the environment, or you could break it into little pieces and reprocess it to recover the fuel. The latter is a rational decision, the former a political one.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Just wondering... What is on the opposite side of the globe from Fukushima?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I like the political one better. The reprocessed fuel is "dirtier" in the event of a future accident. Priority one is killing the damn thing. I could care less about the recovery of this precious fuel.
Fennis
Footballguy
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
tom22406
Footballguy
The Prime Minister of Japan asked citizens within 30 K of the plant 1 to remain indoors until further notice and that some radiation has leaked but they feel the levels at this time aren't high enough to cause serious harm and that they are just being cautious and will continue to attempt to cool down the reactors as they have been doing.
This came from an NHK broadcast.
This was up from the 20K that was being told before.
Also reported that the #4 was on fire but wasn't in use at the time of the quake.
This came from an NHK broadcast.
This was up from the 20K that was being told before.
Also reported that the #4 was on fire but wasn't in use at the time of the quake.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
After doing some reading on BWR and PWR designs, it's pretty clear that Chernobyl was a terrible design. No outer containment vessel and graphite moderation?
bueno
In a class by himself
How do you figure that reprocessed fuel would be dirtier? Refining the rods and reusing the fuel is more logical. It is what France does.The US has lots of spent fuel rods that could be reprocessed into new fuel if politicians allowed it.
David Dodds
Administrator
This from an internet message board:
From the Press Conference: Reactor No.4 Is on Fire
That's the reactor who had been shut down for maintenance when the earthquake hit, and was supposed to be totally "cold".
Turns out that they stored some used fuels there in the building. Then, the blast from the latest explosion damaged the building of the reactor 4.
Fire in the reactor No.4 is not involving the fuels, but the fuels are giving off radiation (meaning it's "hot").
From the Press Conference: Reactor No.4 Is on Fire
That's the reactor who had been shut down for maintenance when the earthquake hit, and was supposed to be totally "cold".
Turns out that they stored some used fuels there in the building. Then, the blast from the latest explosion damaged the building of the reactor 4.
Fire in the reactor No.4 is not involving the fuels, but the fuels are giving off radiation (meaning it's "hot").
David Dodds
Administrator
up to 30K radius now. Clearly this is completely under control. Seriously, my heart and thoughts are for everyone in Japan right now. This really sucks.
JbizzleMan
Footballguy
How much do Geiger counters cost? 
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I read a report in the NYT site that stated that they weren't sure if the rods in reactor 1 was using reprocessed fuel. They explain that the release of radiation is complicated further. I am sure that you understand what they are talking about. I don't pretend to be an expert on that. In any case, do you think in this kind of emergency that affects the entire planet, that the cost or value of this fuel is of any consequence in making a decison for a solution?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Spent fuel rods are continually giving off radiation. That's the problem with their storage. The containers for these rods have to be sealed from the environment for thousands of years in order not to pollute the environment.
PIK95
Footballguy
How much do Geiger counters cost?
I was gonna buy a radar gun but this may be a better idea. 
David Dodds
Administrator
CNN is reporting that radiation increased to levels that can impact human health. This was stated by someone of importance in Japan. Everyone within 30KM (18 mile) is suppose to stay inside. That sure sounds like a breach happened to me.
bueno
In a class by himself
Do you think the risk of leaving radioactive rods in confinement is less than the risk of extracting the useful radioactive material in them for further use and then sealing the non-useful stuff in a much smaller glass brick like France does?
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Yo Z. What's up dude?So, bury it in concrete, consider the place uninhabitable for a long, long time. Not sure what else you do with a melted blob of nuclear material without exposing people to irradiated fuel.Speaking of, nobody is talking about the co-located spent nuclear fuel. That could be a problem too.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
The opposite could easily be argued.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I like the smaller waste footprint of Frances method. but if this is done just primarily for the sake of investment and not safety and security, I think it's a terrible idea. You do know what I am talking about..about the reprocessed fuel rods being less stable in a nuclear meltdown? I know nobody wants to talk about the miniscule risk of a meltdown, but here it is upon us. Impossible to ignore.
bueno
In a class by himself
I invite you to do so.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Rough translation of Japanese Prime Minister's speech from NHK live:
"Please listen to my message calmly....every possible method has been used to cool down the reactors. However, for reactor 1 and 2, hydrogen have come out causing explosion. Reactor 4 we have seen fire.... and radiation has spread from these reactors. And the readings of the levels seem very high. And there is still very high risk of more radioactive material coming out..
....We need everyone from 20km from the power plant 1 to evacuate.....everyone near #2 Power Plant within 10km please move out. We are trying everything we can to make sure further radioactive leakage does not occur. Workers injecting seawater are putting themselves at extreme danger in trying to prevent further leakage."
He then ended his speech and began to walk away, but stopped to listen to one question. The question was something to the effect of "You didn't mention any possible damage to reactor 2, what is the situation at that reactor?" He said that he would not comment on any of the reactors specifically, that he intended only to give a generic overview of the situation. He then walked away from the podium.
A high level cabinet member then came to the podium to answer questions, I wasn't able to hear this part well, so I'm borrowing from other people's summaries of the press conference here:
--------------------
Reactor 4 at the site is now on fire. Reactor 4 did not have any fuel rods in it at the time of the earthquake, but there is spent fuel in the reactor.
Reactors 1 and 3 had the outer containers blown off. Reactor 4 had "things fall into it" rather than exploding out.
Reactor 2. The explosion occurred roughly 3 minutes after the fire started in reactor 4. A hole was observed in the #2 reactor. The inner chamber (I assume they mean the containment vessel) seems to have been the source of the explosion. A smoke/steam mixture can be seen emitting from the #2 reactor building, but it is not certain what it is. It could be hydrogen.
Reactors 1, 2, and 3 remain under active water cooling, which is "continuing smoothly." Next issue is how to maintain the cooling and deal with the fire in reactor 4.
All but 50 people injecting water into reactor 2 have been evacuated. "The issue I am reporting, however, is a high concern to you. We ask that you remain indoors if you are beyond the evacuation limits. If you are still within the boundaries of the evacuation zone, please leave the area. The radiation levels will decrease greatly as you get farther from the reactor but will still depends on wind conditions. Close your windows if you stay indoors."
Q: Is there any damage to reactor 2?
A: "There is a very high possibility that some portion of the containment vessel was damaged" -- direct quote from the cabinet secretary.
"Please listen to my message calmly....every possible method has been used to cool down the reactors. However, for reactor 1 and 2, hydrogen have come out causing explosion. Reactor 4 we have seen fire.... and radiation has spread from these reactors. And the readings of the levels seem very high. And there is still very high risk of more radioactive material coming out..
....We need everyone from 20km from the power plant 1 to evacuate.....everyone near #2 Power Plant within 10km please move out. We are trying everything we can to make sure further radioactive leakage does not occur. Workers injecting seawater are putting themselves at extreme danger in trying to prevent further leakage."
He then ended his speech and began to walk away, but stopped to listen to one question. The question was something to the effect of "You didn't mention any possible damage to reactor 2, what is the situation at that reactor?" He said that he would not comment on any of the reactors specifically, that he intended only to give a generic overview of the situation. He then walked away from the podium.
A high level cabinet member then came to the podium to answer questions, I wasn't able to hear this part well, so I'm borrowing from other people's summaries of the press conference here:
--------------------
Reactor 4 at the site is now on fire. Reactor 4 did not have any fuel rods in it at the time of the earthquake, but there is spent fuel in the reactor.
Reactors 1 and 3 had the outer containers blown off. Reactor 4 had "things fall into it" rather than exploding out.
Reactor 2. The explosion occurred roughly 3 minutes after the fire started in reactor 4. A hole was observed in the #2 reactor. The inner chamber (I assume they mean the containment vessel) seems to have been the source of the explosion. A smoke/steam mixture can be seen emitting from the #2 reactor building, but it is not certain what it is. It could be hydrogen.
Reactors 1, 2, and 3 remain under active water cooling, which is "continuing smoothly." Next issue is how to maintain the cooling and deal with the fire in reactor 4.
All but 50 people injecting water into reactor 2 have been evacuated. "The issue I am reporting, however, is a high concern to you. We ask that you remain indoors if you are beyond the evacuation limits. If you are still within the boundaries of the evacuation zone, please leave the area. The radiation levels will decrease greatly as you get farther from the reactor but will still depends on wind conditions. Close your windows if you stay indoors."
Q: Is there any damage to reactor 2?
A: "There is a very high possibility that some portion of the containment vessel was damaged" -- direct quote from the cabinet secretary.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
hmmm. Go on...
bueno
In a class by himself
Which nuclear waste facility do you believe is safer? The one in France or the leaky barrels at INEL?
David Dodds
Administrator
Hearing about 400 Millisieverts levels at the Fukushima plant area. This sounds like a breach to me as those levels are quite high. I don't yet have a confirmation on that number, but have seen it posted in multiple places.
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Fennis
Footballguy
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Certainly our current form of disposal needs improvement. And I am not in general against reprocessing fuel rods. But in this case, we need to follow the political solution as lives and an entire countries future hangs in the balance. If they can kill this reactor and only a limited perimeter is affected, they need to do so ASAP. The time for the other debate can come later.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Japan has the largest reprocessing facility in the world so they know a thing or two about it. No need for the constant references to France. I doubt many of the fuel assemblies are in tact. We know the zirconium cladding has been peeling off on some. I'd bet the cranes to move the assemblies around are shot. Even a partial meltdown would make rod extraction very complicated for any damaged assembly. How do you know what's damaged and what's not? Cameras are probably shot so it's impossible to know which rods are extractable, which are not (there are thousands of rods in every reactor).Uranium conversion and enrichment are very cheap, relatively speaking. I can't imagine a cost-effective rationale for reprocessing.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I millisievert = 100 millirems, so this about 40 rems. That's very high indeed.
Fennis
Footballguy
I just heard that on NHK announced by the Japanese Energy Cabinet Secretary
Trump Tight
Footballguy
Is there any reason we can't put nuclear waste somewhere else off the planet? Is it just cost? What does it cost now to store a kilo of nuclear waste?
tom22406
Footballguy
I can confirm that as well as to what was said.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Where is this radiation coming from?
LHUCKS
Footballguy
it's not cost effective
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Fennis
Footballguy
presumably Reactor No.4, but they haven't confirmed which one.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
I've already made a case for why reprocessing may not be a good idea. I think the benefits of burying this site as soon as possible are pretty straight forward. There's another option too. If you can get to the fuel, get it out, store it properly, lock the door and move on.
bueno
In a class by himself
Well you can't exactly break it into little pieces and reprocess it until they kill the reactor can you? once we get to that point, what makes more sense to you -encasing it on site in concrete and hope it is contained for longer than the human race will likely last, or reprocessing the fuel? Seems like a non-brainer decision to me.
bueno
In a class by himself
I can imagine an environmental reason for doing so.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I guess they are likely going the Chernobyl route now aren't they?
It's impressive/sad that it seems no matter how many "failsafes" and "backups" and "contingency plans" you have, something can STILL go wrong.
It's impressive/sad that it seems no matter how many "failsafes" and "backups" and "contingency plans" you have, something can STILL go wrong.
Trump Tight
Footballguy
How many kilos of nuclear waste are generated per year? Say $5,000 per kilo for Proton rocketry, the 10B cleanup would get what, 2*106 Kgs out of our hair.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Nothing have been going right so far. It sickens me. 
bueno
In a class by himself
Radioactive decay would be my first guess.The situation has gotten to the point where it is approaching worst case scenario.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sounds like it, but I still don't know what that means. I'm not clear what "concerned" means in this context, or what "meltdown" means, or what "breach" means. When I use the word "means", I'm taling about what it means for the Japanese public, and for the world. Are we talking about thousands of people getting cancer? Dying? Clouds of radioactive gas spreading around the Earth? Apocalypse? What the heck are we talking about??
bueno
In a class by himself
Chernobyl is not where we are going. Meltdown is.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Many reactors have an adjacent spent fuel storage pool where used fuel is stored until it's cool enough to work with. Then the spent fuel is usually stored in storage casks, sometimes on-site, other times in a separate location (Japan intends to reprocess spent fuel). This is another source of irradiated nuclear material that must be a concern, albeit probably secondary right now.
timschochet
Footballguy
Can you define what "worst case scenario" exactly is? For Japan and the world?
