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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
mr. furley
Footballguy
caught a guy on GMA with Robin Roberts testing common items.. he got to the bunch of bananas and the detector thingamawhatzit went berserkOHMYGOD>Radiaiton detection equipment is insanely sensitive. Finding traces of contamination on luggage from someone who recently came form the area in concern is not earth shaking news.Troubling, but hardly earth shaking.'JbizzleMan said:Chicago?!!? Where are you going to go!! IT'S EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, but we don't know where those bananas have been.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
So we've learned to hook up a remote power source or perhaps locate back up gens on high reinforced ground (likely manmade).
It's %!@$#^$ pathetic that irrational fears of radiation are keeping aid from reaching people who desperately need it. And STILL the reactors dominate the news because they breed fear.ETA: Some people here will go ape&^#@% if they learn even 50 people died of radiation poisoning. Others will go ape&%^$# when they learn of trace radioactivity found in some pond 10 miles away form the site 2 years from now, and they'll use this as evidance that nuclear power is unsafe.
Never mind the fact that the problem was caused by an earthquake and tsunami that DIRECTLY caused the deaths of tens of thousands, and left another 1/2 million homeless. Never mind the fact that the tsunami probably dragged 1000X more dangerous debris, fuel oil, gasoline and other environmental pollutants out to sea with it than the "nuclear catastrophe" will add.
Get a ^@#&$*@()$ grip people.
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Otis
Footballguy
LOL at CNN.
Telling their "expert" that he was "way out in front in predicting these problems over the last few days. How did you do it?!?!?!" Nice back patting here.
And I love the breaking news -- "LAST DITCH EFFORTS TO COOL REACTORS "SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE."" They put it in quotes to make sure everyone knows they were not completely effective and the world is still ending.
Telling their "expert" that he was "way out in front in predicting these problems over the last few days. How did you do it?!?!?!" Nice back patting here.
And I love the breaking news -- "LAST DITCH EFFORTS TO COOL REACTORS "SOMEWHAT EFFECTIVE."" They put it in quotes to make sure everyone knows they were not completely effective and the world is still ending.
Dr. Gobbler
Footballguy
Don't waste your time on these maroons, Ham. They still think oil comes from dinosaurs.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
The awful truth is that the death count was set the day this tragic earthquake/tsunami happened. There is very little hope of any search and rescue mission. Have you seen the pictures? As for the fear, it's real and I don't blame them for feeling it. This is an unprecedented event, and we don't have enough information to declare a safe environment. I heard Dr. Sanjay Gupta warn pregnant women and children of the effect of radiation on growing body cells and the link to cancer. I hear that the radiation around #3 and #4 is so bad around the pool that exposure for less than a minute could cause death. It's enough to make people fearful. If its my life and my childrens life, I err on the side of caution, seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Please dont critisize, you arent in thier shoes.
I'm talking about the people here. I'm talking about things like the US gov't telling her NAVY to stay several hundred miles away.Radiation around unsheilded spent fuel would be stupid high, deadly high no doubt...but that's NOT released radioactive material to the environment, and it's fairly easily fixed. Of course...nobody tells you it's relatively easily fixed and not a general danger to the public because tehy're too busy peddling fear...fear that's interfering with getting help to people who desperately need it.
David Dodds
Administrator
Good picture showing no water in spent rods area #4:
http://www.telegraph...n-meltdown.html
Japan nuclear plant: exposed to the elements - nuclear fuel in meltdown
http://www.telegraph...n-meltdown.html
Japan nuclear plant: exposed to the elements - nuclear fuel in meltdown
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Topes
Footballguy
Perhaps you ought to spend some time in the Earthquake/Tsunami thread. This is the meltdown thread.Comparing the meltdown to the greater catastrophe does not make it any better, or smaller.
There will be plenty of time to worry about the damage caused to the reputation of nuclear power in the future.
bueno
In a class by himself
Yes and no. Wat are the environmental costs of damming the Columbia? What are the environmental costs of mining uranium.And what are the economic benefits of mining coal, drilling for oil and gas, etc. We can't just pick and chose - we have to consider all costs and benefits.What about the environmental costs/economic benefits of waste to energy plants? And why are they so unpopular?Frankly, I cannot see even 40% of our energy being generated by wind and solar - it isn't there. Not saying it shouldn't be used where it makes sense, it's just that it doesn't make sense in many places.
bueno
In a class by himself
The earthquake affected Crescent City? Really?
bueno
In a class by himself
tectonic - it's tectonic.
bueno
In a class by himself
so we can burn it.
bueno
In a class by himself
Hey hammy, you want to get real scared?All fertilizer contains potash. Potash is generally in the form of potassium chloride. Potassium 40 is radioactive. Bet it gets into the food chain too.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Are waste to energy plants so unpopular? I never felt that was true. Maybe you have that perspective. If true, I suppose it's because they are woefully inefficient in terms of solid fuel to btu content, and the waste materials generated can be nasty. I have seen this in cogeneration plants where the goal is fuel nuetral status, but the effect is sometimes an increase in carbon footprint!The renewable category has more than wind and solar. There is geothermal, biofuels, tidal turbines, thermal storage. There is also a tremendous amount of wasted energy in inefficient architecture and building component and controls. The world now needs about 1.6 terrawatts hours/year to run at its current requirement. Or its equivalent Btu content. It needs to come from somewhere. I am not saying 40 percent will come from renewables. 15 percent should be a goal, and really it will take 20 years to get to that point. It's a long, slow ride to ramping renewables into a widely accepted, economic alternative. And getting to the question you asked, why choose one waste stream for economics and not another? I suppose there is some room for subjectivity prior to analyzing the fuel stream up to the plant. But the environmental costs the EPA are touting are fuel nuetral, and their aim is to eliminate mercury and other wastes at the emission cycle. So in that sense, it is a fair comparison, apples to apples...say.
bueno
In a class by himself
It shows that?
bueno
In a class by himself
geothermal is also pretty limited as we usually think of the term. However if we look at the possibility of circulating water through deep wells and then through heat exchangers, we can use it for limited heating and cooling (using normal geothermal gradient and shallow wells, we can keep circulating water at about 50 F. So that could help with heating in cold climes and cooling in warm ones, but as a supplement only. And there is a capital cost. I looked at it for my place and couldn't justify the capital costs.Why waste to energy plants are unpopular at least the Spokane one, is that they burn tires and people complain about it.I agree that we could have better passive solar systems and more efficient buildings, but again it becomes a matter of being able to justify the capital costs.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Go ahead and play along with his shenanigans. At best he is a complete moron, at worst he is pretending to be. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Geothermal's sweet spot for economic recovery is a place like Kentucky, where heating degree days close match cooling degree days. The maximum amount of heat transfer per btu is attained, (greatest delta T on average). The problem I had in installing was not economic, but regulatory, as aquifers owned by neighboring counties own water rights and wont permit penetration, even with a closed loop system. I can imagine a tire burning plant would be unpleasant to be around, like living around a tallow yard. And as for justifying capital costs, I do it all the time with building modeling systems. They are free to download from DOE FEMP. I highly recommend Equest.
gmbacm
Footballguy
Have a great season!
bueno
In a class by himself
I've never really been able to smell anything when I drove by it on the way to the airport. It is not like it is downtown or anything.You use DCF-ROI analysis? Because one of the problems is that it takes a long time to recoup the capital. Even without considering the time value of money, I couldn't make the numbers work for geothermal at my place north of Spokane, WA. And it gets real cold here. Hot not so much. Also, I use propane for heating, with some minor electricity (both of which are cheap here).Geothermal's sweet spot for economic recovery is a place like Kentucky, where heating degree days close match cooling degree days. The maximum amount of heat transfer per btu is attained, (greatest delta T on average). The problem I had in installing was not economic, but regulatory, as aquifers owned by neighboring counties own water rights and wont permit penetration, even with a closed loop system. I can imagine a tire burning plant would be unpleasant to be around, like living around a tallow yard. And as for justifying capital costs, I do it all the time with building modeling systems. They are free to download from DOE FEMP. I highly recommend Equest.
bueno
In a class by himself
Hey, you have a Broncos fan and a Raiders fan having a civil discussion here. This is history in the making!
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
ROI is a nice starting point. But I have to follow up with a government formula that spits out an SIR, savings to investment ratio. It is only official validation of the economics. I don't doubt that geothermal will be hard to justify. Your climate is heavily loaded with HDD's (heating degree days). Your benefit is mainly over the winter, and your delta T is less in the summer. I used to live in Colorado, and infrared heat was a good alternative to some propane equipment, particularly in high bay applications....and since electric is cheap, you may consider that.I've never really been able to smell anything when I drove by it on the way to the airport. It is not like it is downtown or anything.You use DCF-ROI analysis? Because one of the problems is that it takes a long time to recoup the capital. Even without considering the time value of money, I couldn't make the numbers work for geothermal at my place north of Spokane, WA. And it gets real cold here. Hot not so much. Also, I use propane for heating, with some minor electricity (both of which are cheap here).Geothermal's sweet spot for economic recovery is a place like Kentucky, where heating degree days close match cooling degree days. The maximum amount of heat transfer per btu is attained, (greatest delta T on average). The problem I had in installing was not economic, but regulatory, as aquifers owned by neighboring counties own water rights and wont permit penetration, even with a closed loop system. I can imagine a tire burning plant would be unpleasant to be around, like living around a tallow yard. And as for justifying capital costs, I do it all the time with building modeling systems. They are free to download from DOE FEMP. I highly recommend Equest.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
http://english.kyodo...1/03/79194.html
'Weeks' needed to cool down Fukushima nuke reactors: U.S. regulator
'Weeks' needed to cool down Fukushima nuke reactors: U.S. regulator
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Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
Better than "years".
timschochet
Footballguy
This was probably covered elswhere, but I can't find it: wasn't the ultimate solution to Chernobyl burying it in conrete? Will they eventually come to that here?
Anonymous Internet User
Footballguy
nah, nuking the site from orbit is the only way to be sure
Incogneto
Footballguy
Where do we all stand on this event now? Are we still running for the hills, or are our nerves calming? a week has passed now, and it looks like things are more in control now than they were yesterday....and same the night before....
Are we thinking this 'catastrophic event' has reached its peak of panic, and now settling, or is this still a 'MAJOR ISSUE!!!1!!'
Are we thinking this 'catastrophic event' has reached its peak of panic, and now settling, or is this still a 'MAJOR ISSUE!!!1!!'
Rovers
Footballguy
Did you think this was something that could happen overnight? And that previous post linked to a UK scandal rag is the Stuff National Enquirer is made of. They FACTUALLY stated that R4 spent fuel rod pool was dry. That is pure conjecture, they still can't see into the pool to know what the water level is or isn't, but one Japanese authority also claimed to have seen water in the pool, in fact during a fly by today. That report includes blatant lies.
DD... do you WANT a disaster of mega proprotions? It's almost like you are hoping, even praying for the worst possible scenario. You are worse than Anerson Cooper who keeps saying that "They are fighting for their lives..." which is sensationalism at it's absolute most pukifying.
DD... do you WANT a disaster of mega proprotions? It's almost like you are hoping, even praying for the worst possible scenario. You are worse than Anerson Cooper who keeps saying that "They are fighting for their lives..." which is sensationalism at it's absolute most pukifying.
Incogneto
Footballguy
It's post like this that dissapoint me that the '+' button doesnt work. I give you a big Plus
Otis
Footballguy
I lost all respect for CNN during this thing. And American major news outlets generally.
If you had a "biggest Lunatic at CNN" draft I would struggle between Spitzer and that lunati "meteorologist.". Cooper is a safe top-fiver.
Ham> I'd pop that iodine pill surplus up onto eBay ASAP if I were you.
If you had a "biggest Lunatic at CNN" draft I would struggle between Spitzer and that lunati "meteorologist.". Cooper is a safe top-fiver.
Ham> I'd pop that iodine pill surplus up onto eBay ASAP if I were you.
David Dodds
Administrator
http://www.globalpos...odine?page=full
Nuclear industry veteran explains why Japan's disaster could take a year to unfold, and contaminate for decades.
Nuclear industry veteran explains why Japan's disaster could take a year to unfold, and contaminate for decades.
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The wikipedia entry states that it was entombed (a sarcophagus of metal and concrete), but there are plans to build the largest moveable structure ever (an arch), away from the site, due to radiation concerns, and then place it over the existing ,due to concerns about its stability. The surrounding area had to be decontaminated first. Why can robots mix concrete on site and pour it over the current structure?
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David Dodds
Administrator
Why would I want a disaster to happen? That's pretty messed up to even think that. I have friends living in Japan and think these people have been through hell. I am posting links because I think this is an important event that has taken place.
Das Boot
Footballguy
Japan weighs need to bury nuclear plant
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/wl_nm/us_japan_quake
TOKYO (Reuters) – Japanese engineers conceded on Friday that burying a crippled nuclear plant in sand and concrete may be the only way to prevent a catastrophic radiation release, the method used to seal huge leakages from Chernobyl in 1986.
Officials said they still hoped to fix a power cable to at least two reactors to restart water pumps needed to cool overheating nuclear fuel rods. Workers also sprayed water on the No.3 reactor, one of the most critical of the plant's six.
It was the first time the facility operator had acknowledged that burying the sprawling complex was an option, a sign that piecemeal actions such as dumping water from military helicopters were having little success.
"It is not impossible to encase the reactors in concrete. But our priority right now is to try and cool them down first," an official from the plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co, told a news conference.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/wl_nm/us_japan_quake
TOKYO (Reuters) – Japanese engineers conceded on Friday that burying a crippled nuclear plant in sand and concrete may be the only way to prevent a catastrophic radiation release, the method used to seal huge leakages from Chernobyl in 1986.
Officials said they still hoped to fix a power cable to at least two reactors to restart water pumps needed to cool overheating nuclear fuel rods. Workers also sprayed water on the No.3 reactor, one of the most critical of the plant's six.
It was the first time the facility operator had acknowledged that burying the sprawling complex was an option, a sign that piecemeal actions such as dumping water from military helicopters were having little success.
"It is not impossible to encase the reactors in concrete. But our priority right now is to try and cool them down first," an official from the plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co, told a news conference.
David Dodds
Administrator
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-wrapup-20110318,0,2262753.story
U.S. nuclear officials suspect Japanese plant has a dire breach
From the article:
...U.S. government nuclear experts believe a spent fuel pool at Japan's crippled Fukushima reactor complex has a breach in the wall or floor...
...based on the sequence of events since the earthquake and information provided by key American contractors who were in the plant at the time...
...the spent fuel pool does not have its own containment vessel...the pool...contains 130 tons of uranium fuel...
...A breach in the pool would leave engineers with a problem that has no precedent or ready-made solution...
U.S. nuclear officials suspect Japanese plant has a dire breach
From the article:
...U.S. government nuclear experts believe a spent fuel pool at Japan's crippled Fukushima reactor complex has a breach in the wall or floor...
...based on the sequence of events since the earthquake and information provided by key American contractors who were in the plant at the time...
...the spent fuel pool does not have its own containment vessel...the pool...contains 130 tons of uranium fuel...
...A breach in the pool would leave engineers with a problem that has no precedent or ready-made solution...
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snitwitch
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
My Ex-wife worked for the LA Times. They take reporting extremely seriously there. I hope though for all of the people in Japan that they are wrong about what they just reported.
snitwitch
Footballguy
china syndrome time.
David Dodds
Administrator
I am not sure that China Syndrome is even possible. I am hoping for a great day where they can get water in.
David Dodds
Administrator
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/18/markets-commodities-graphic-corrected-idUSL3E7EH16W20110318
"Japanese engineers conceded on Friday that burying a crippled nuclear plant in sand and concrete may be the only way to prevent a catastrophic radiation release, the method used to seal huge leakages from Chernobyl in 1986."
"Japanese engineers conceded on Friday that burying a crippled nuclear plant in sand and concrete may be the only way to prevent a catastrophic radiation release, the method used to seal huge leakages from Chernobyl in 1986."
