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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (3 Viewers)

Now we're talking. But how do they afford that?
Well the main idea presented here would be to trade Reiff for Williams.

So the savings from Reiffs contract would account for most of what Williams wants, and Wulford speculates that number may be something like $14 million per year type of deal. Which is still a lot but maybe more managable than the $18 million or more that has mostly been floated around.

They are in the second wave of free agents now, so that is when other player contracts get some more perspective and prices come down.

According to this Reiffs contract will cost $13.2 million this season if they keep him. So if Williams would play for $14 million it wouldn't be much more.

The Vikings still owe Reiff a bonus of $4.4 million so that would count as dead cap for this year,.

So that would be the price, plus whatever else the Vikings might give Washington to do the deal.

 
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Well the main idea presented here would be to trade Reiff for Williams.
The Vikes should definitely look at any upgrade as something that can be offset with Reiff, either via trade or just a release and re-use of his cap. 

On Williams, I'm inclined to give him the 'proven talent' benefit of the doubt, but recall coming away from the thread dedicated to him thinking him something of a head case.

 
The Vikes should definitely look at any upgrade as something that can be offset with Reiff, either via trade or just a release and re-use of his cap. 

On Williams, I'm inclined to give him the 'proven talent' benefit of the doubt, but recall coming away from the thread dedicated to him thinking him something of a head case.
Yeah I dont know if that is the case.

Seems reasonable to be upset about doctors being negligent.  Is there other stuff as well?

Anyhow that's for the Vikings to decide. They likely are okay with whatever risks if their interested in trading for him.

 
Well the main idea presented here would be to trade Reiff for Williams.

So the savings from Reiffs contract would account for most of what Williams wants, and Wulford speculates that number may be something like $14 million per year type of deal. Which is still a lot but maybe more managable than the $18 million or more that has mostly been floated around.

They are in the second wave of free agents now, so that is when other player contracts get some more perspective and prices come down.

According to this Reiffs contract will cost $13.2 million this season if they keep him. So if Williams would play for $14 million it wouldn't be much more.

The Vikings still owe Reiff a bonus of $4.4 million so that would count as dead cap for this year,.

So that would be the price, plus whatever else the Vikings might give Washington to do the deal.
Seems they could accomplish the same thing by trading Harris. I would be much more inclined to say Washington would be more interested in Harris than Reiff. MN could easily move Reiff to guard. 

 
Yeah I dont know if that is the case.

Seems reasonable to be upset about doctors being negligent.  Is there other stuff as well?
I'd have to look but thought it was something about having a bunch of pitbulls that were pictured roaming free in his neighborhood, and him having a dogs will be dogs attitude. Just seemed like the more I read, the more knucklehead boxes I was checking off. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Seems they could accomplish the same thing by trading Harris. I would be much more inclined to say Washington would be more interested in Harris than Reiff. MN could easily move Reiff to guard. 
There's another idea.

What does Washington have to give back in that case?

Im still hoping they keep Harris, but maybe this would be a good move.

No gatuntee Reiff plays well at guard, but he would likely be better than Elf. That's not hard.

 
There's another idea.

What does Washington have to give back in that case?

Im still hoping they keep Harris, but maybe this would be a good move.

No gatuntee Reiff plays well at guard, but he would likely be better than Elf. That's not hard.
I could be wrong about the market for G but Reiff does not seem good value at his LT salary, performance questions aside. Think I’d take the cap relief cutting ties (or trading him elsewhere) and trying to get longer term/lower cost solution using one of the 1sts.

 
I could be wrong about the market for G but Reiff does not seem good value at his LT salary, performance questions aside. Think I’d take the cap relief cutting ties (or trading him elsewhere) and trying to get longer term/lower cost solution using one of the 1sts.
Not sure if you saw the Mock I did with Andy or not, but I went with Josh Jones OT from Houston at pick 22 then Gross Matos at pick 25.

As you can see from the mock this makes it challenging to address WR and CB with strong players who might be able to make a difference right away.

 
Not sure if you saw the Mock I did with Andy or not, but I went with Josh Jones OT from Houston at pick 22 then Gross Matos at pick 25.

As you can see from the mock this makes it challenging to address WR and CB with strong players who might be able to make a difference right away.
I truly enjoy following those mocks, but JMHO I don’t put a ton of weight on opinions that position X is difficult to solve with anything but the players being hyped. The Vikes have a lot of picks, and good teams find talent. No one would have thought Diggs was who he became, since he slipped to the 5th round. Just as well to take a guard given this team’s poor track record taking 1st round hyped WRs (CPat, Treadwell). Getting dramatic improvement at OL is the #1 need, far and away, with an immobile pocket passer. Cousins showed in Washington he doesn’t need flashy WRs. He needs time.

 
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I could be wrong about the market for G but Reiff does not seem good value at his LT salary, performance questions aside. Think I’d take the cap relief cutting ties (or trading him elsewhere) and trying to get longer term/lower cost solution using one of the 1sts.
I am not against moving Reiff to save money.

My understanding is the free agent guards are not very good. Josh Kline might be one of the better ones available right now.. Maybe I am missing someone though.

The Vikings have signed Rashod Hill and Udoh seems like a promising player maybe. Most of the journalists and so on I have listened to are against getting rid of Reiff, because of stability concerns, they did cut Kline and I think everyone wants Elf on the bench, so if they only return two starters, that is a shake up of continuity.

I would agree that the offensive line play could be worse without Rieff. Maybe it won't be though. Hill has played near as well as Reiff in my view when called on. Maybe that won't hold up over a full season? It doesn't seem like a huge drop off to me.

Another reason I think folks don't want to move on from Reiff is because of all the turnover on defense. They want some consistency some where. This team is going to look a lot different once they are done.

We been talking about this for years. I think its time to rebuild the lines. They do not seem to think so. They are trying to reload instead of build a foundation.

I know they are aware of the talent at tackle in the draft though and I think there are 5 tackles worth taking in the 1st round. So one of them has a good chance to be available at pick 22. The question then would be if that player will last to pick 25 or not.

 
My understanding is the free agent guards are not very good. Josh Kline might be one of the better ones available right now.. Maybe I am missing someone though.

Another reason I think folks don't want to move on from Reiff is because of all the turnover on defense. They want some consistency some where. This team is going to look a lot different once they are done.
To be clear, my post that you responded to was carry over from the ‘if they get Williams for Harris’ discussion, where you suggested sliding Reiff to G if he’s not part of that trade. If LT is solved with Williams, I’m not for shuffling $9M Reiff vs a 1st draftee to Solve guard.

I would not drop Reiff without upgrading the position. Hill is a wish/prayer move and that’s risky. Also agree FA does not look like an option to solve G. Feels like the sort of class the Vikes were navigating when they overpaid Reiff/Remmers.

 
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No. They have a surprising number of needs.
true... but two first round picks, I think it wouldn't be that hard to trade up to Miami or Oakland's spot (if they want out of that spot) to draft maybe someone like Justin Jefferson. Would still have a first round pick, and they should be able to get a decent CB there (Jaylon Johnson, Terrell, Fulton, etc). Two big needs right there.

 
true... but two first round picks, I think it wouldn't be that hard to trade up to Miami or Oakland's spot (if they want out of that spot) to draft maybe someone like Justin Jefferson. Would still have a first round pick, and they should be able to get a decent CB there (Jaylon Johnson, Terrell, Fulton, etc). Two big needs right there.
The Vikings need

2 starting corners.

At least one WR

Offensive linemen everywhere. Brian O;Niel is the only linemen they have who is good. They hope that Bradbury improves.

Defensive End. They lost Griffen and Weatherly.

Defensive Tackle Shamar Stephen is the worst returning starter on the defense. They haven't had a good pass rushing defensive tackle since Kevin Williams and a few games of Floyd before he had a career ending injury.

They need a safety. Remains to be seen if they need that safety to start.

That is 9 different players they need to add to the roster. 

Even with 5 picks in the first 3 rounds it is difficult to address all of these needs. There are going to be some holes in the line up, the question is how to prioritize the resources they do have to field the best team this season and in the next 2 seasons. 

I don't see how they could give up draft picks to move up for a WR. If they were going to trade up it would be for a QB who fell, but they are not looking at QBs. They signed Cousins to an extension and also brought back Sean Mannion. 

Is Jefferson being talked about in the teens now? A week or so ago he was falling into the 20's

There are enough good WR in the draft that I think the Vikings can get a good one at pick 58 although thats not a given if there is a huge run on them before then.

 
Offensive Line and Corner in the first...WR in the second...if it is anything else, I will not be happy!
I could accept DT/DE. Both lines need big upgrades, and strong DL will hide DB shortcomings.

i was just at a different Vikes forum and saw people expecting a mega extension for Cooks. Why in the world? Make him play out the year to prove he can make a full season and tag him if it is worth it. Why overpay long term now? Even reliable bell cows are not worth big $. He’s not even that.

 
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I could accept DT/DE. Both lines need big upgrades, and strong DL will hide DB shortcomings.

i was just at a different Vikes forum and saw people expecting a mega extension for Cooks. Why in the world? Make him play out the year to prove he can make a full season and tag him if it is worth it. Why overpay long term now? Even reliable bell cows are not worth big $. He’s not even that.
I actually like their DT's (Watts, Johnson, Holmes, Mata'afa, Pierce and Stephen) is not bad at all. Odenigbo and Hunter will start, so DE is a priority but DT isn't needed.

 
I actually like their DT's (Watts, Johnson, Holmes, Mata'afa, Pierce and Stephen) is not bad at all. Odenigbo and Hunter will start, so DE is a priority but DT isn't needed.
Last season defensive snaps for the DTs

Shamar Stephen 579 snaps 52.97% of the total snaps 15 solo tackles 6 assisted tackles 1 sack 2 QB hits

To give some context to how bad this is we can compare this to Sheldon Richardson from 2018 where he had 718 snaps 26 solo tackles 23 assisted tackles 4.5 sacks 16 QB hits

Stephen .036 tackles .0017 sacks .003 QB hits per snap

Richardson .085 tackles .0062 sacks .026 QB hits per snap

Richardson made tackles twice as much as Stephen sacked the QB 3 times more often and hit the QB 9 times more often.

Stephen has gotten a year older and not any better.

Linval Joseph 552 snaps 50.5% of the total snaps 44 tackles 3 sacks 6 QB hits

Joseph had a down year compared to how he has played previously. I thought he showed some decline in his play in 2018. That was more evident in 2019. 

Still Joseph made tackles twice as often, had 3 times the sacks and 3 times the QB hits as Stephen who played more snaps than Joseph did.

Hopefully Pierce can fill Joseph's shoes and force more double teams, and be more effective playing off the double teams. I don't think he is as good a pass rusher as Joseph and Linval had really good range to make plays on screens and other plays to the outside that Pierce may not match. This position has been addressed though, hopefully Pierce works out.

Jaleel Johnson 408 snaps 37.3% of the total snaps 29 tackles 3.5 sacks 5 QB hits

Stephen .036 tackles .0017 sacks .003 QB hits per snap

Johnson .07 tackles .0085 sacks .012 QB hits per snap

Johnson is better than Stephen although he is a bit of a tweener between NT and 3 technique and more on the NT side. TBH I never liked the pick. I recall watching his college games and watching him get pushed around. He has improved, I don't think he should start though unless Stephen is the only other option. Johnson has improved though and he doubled his snaps from 2018 (no Richardson to take them)

Armon Watts 121 snaps 11% of the total snaps 13 tackles 1,5 sacks 1 QB hit

Stephen .036 tackles .0017 sacks .003 QB hits per snap

Watts .11 tackles .0013 sacks .0082 QB hits per snap

The high tackle rate for Watts is outstanding but also a product of small sample size of 121 snaps. Still I thought he was impressive, and he got more push than Joseph did at times last season. He is a promising player, but he is a NT not a pass rusher.

Hercules Mata'afa 100 snaps 9.15% of the total snaps 1 tackle

I like this guy but he can't hold up against the run. He proved nothing.

Jalyn Holmes 73 snaps 6,68% of the total snaps 4 tackles

I really don't see a reason for optimism about Holmes, Mata'afa or especially Stephen who sucks and I feel badly needs to be replaced. I agree Watts and Johnson are nice depth. So maybe the Vikings have 3 DT who are okay counting Pierce. None of these guys can get after the QB though. 

That need is still there.

 
I suppose if the Vikings shift to more of a 3-4 front then the players they have better fit the 5 technique. They could go Eagle with Hunter and Odenigbo as the ends with 3 DT on early downs I suppose.

Eric Wilson did get a 2nd round tender. Maybe he will play more.

 
They really should go to a 3-4. Barr is better off in that sort of scheme and I'm sure Hunter child make the transition. Pierce would play nose. They'd need to figure out the ends, I guess.

It just seems like the athletes coming out of college for that scheme far more than 4-3. It's easier to fill out the linebacker spots than it is the line.

 
In a 3-4 the ends would be Jaleel Johnson and either Stephen or Watts as the 3rd lineman. Watts would likely mix in with Pierce as the NT not sure they would play him at end or not.

Such an alignment would mean only playing 2 corners, and more often than not they will play 3 corners on 2nd and 3rd down, so we are only talking about the 1st down defense.

As far as acquiring LB being easier than Dlinemen perhaps thats true. In this draft it does seem like there are quite a few good LB who I was not considering for the Vikings based on the assumption that they will run a 4-3 most of the time (which they have done every year with Zimmer so far) and they already have 3 good LB so no need for another LB. If they did switch to a 3-4 then they would want more depth there.

The way I look at it is that the defense is only as good as its weakest link. Some of the things that I heard Eric Eager talking about suggested that as well.

The weakest link of the Vikings defense is Shamar Stephen. I want to see him replaced because I think that could improve the weakest link of it.

The other weak links of the defense will be at corner back. They are going to need 3 corners step up besides Hughes and Hill. They do have some guys on the roster who could fill one or two of those roles I suppose, but I do not know who those players are right now. Kris Boyd? They are going to need to draft multiple corners and Hill is not a player that Zimmer wants to count on.

It is going to take some serious magic on Zimmers part for this defense to not be worse than last years.

 
In a 3-4 the ends would be Jaleel Johnson and either Stephen or Watts as the 3rd lineman. Watts would likely mix in with Pierce as the NT not sure they would play him at end or not.

Such an alignment would mean only playing 2 corners, and more often than not they will play 3 corners on 2nd and 3rd down, so we are only talking about the 1st down defense.
That's not necessarily true...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_defense

A common defensive front adjustment for 3–4 teams to accommodate the nickel backfield involves putting the two outside linebackers into a three-point stance shading the offensive tackles (i.e. a 5 technique). To complete the adjustment, the 3–4 defensive ends are moved to face or shade the offensive guards. The nose tackle is removed for a defensive back. The purpose of this is to leave the four best pass rushers on the field in a long yardage situation. This is not the only adjustment that can be made. Bill Arnsparger would often remove linebackers from a 3–4 to create nickel and dime sets, replacing them with defensive backs.[4]
Although this next year it probably WOULD be as finding three corners that Zimmer would WANT to play might be the real trick.

 
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Vikings Next Man Up: OL Oli Udoh

Wlulford doing a nice job with these write ups of the back up players on the Vikings who may be moving into starting roles sooner than later.

I do think Samia and Udohs development are part of the reason why the Vikings released Josh Kline. I have hope that Kubiak and Dennison know what they are doing and they have a plan for the offensive lines improvement moving forward. Udoh may be a part of that. The Vikings also have Hill who is a capable swing tackle.

Vikings Next Man Up: WR Bisi Johnson

At the end of this article there is a clip of all of Johnsons targets in 2019. He falls down a lot.

 
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I keep doing mock drafts and I am finding that certain players are not dropping to pick 58 but they are dropping into the 40's and 50's so my thought is for the Vikings to trade down from pick 22 and try to get a early 2nd round pick plus whatever else gets thrown into it. The best case scenario for this would be trading with the Bengals for their 2nd and 3rd round picks, as I saw in one mock draft, but I doubt even the Bengals are dumb enough to do a trade like that, but if they do the Vikings should take it.

I think there is about 45 players who are worth taking in the first round i another way of putting this, so if the Vikings trade pick 22 for a pick in the 30-40 range they should still get a similarly talented player as they would have at pick 22.

Now positionally there are some drop offs. I think there are 6 1st round caliber offensive tackles in this draft. Jedrick Wills Tristan Wirfs, Josh Jomes, Andrew Thomas, Mekhi Becton and Ezra Cleveland. A lot of the time it seems that 4 or 5 of these players are drafted before pick 22. I have seen Cleveland going in the 2nd round at times, so this feels like a reach to take him that high, but I don't think it is when he never falls to pick 58.

In the 2nd round there will be several WR who drop but most of the good ones (and there are a lot of good ones) are gone by pick 58 also. It feels like a reach to take a WR at pick 22 or pick 25 though when the guys I want, like Reagor are consistently there in the 2nd round.

In other instances I am missing my targeted player by 2 or 3 picks. The Vikings have 12 picks to work with and they should hopefully be able to move up a few spots when/if they see something like that happening.

If the Vikings did trade down from one of their 1st round picks, they would have 12 or more picks to try to move around in the draft as needed. 

I think I am done with draft simming now. I have the free version so I can't trade. I think trading down into the 2nd round with one of the 1st round picks is definitely a move the Vikings want to make in order to maximize their draft capital.

 
If the Vikings did trade down from one of their 1st round picks, they would have 12 or more picks to try to move around in the draft as needed. 
They have 12 picks right now, I think they they should package something with the 58th overall pick to move up to get who they are targeting as their "third" guy. 

But I agree, most of the guys that they might be targeting are gone about pick 50 so if they can move up 10-20 spots, that would be ideal. There are always a few surprises in the top 50 so they might get lucky and have a few drop - at least a few that I think are worthy, but who knows.

Hopefully they can get Harris signed to more than the franchise tag and spread that money out a bit. There are a few CB's still in FA that might be worth it to bring in before the draft as well. Not saying they shouldn't draft one with one of those first three picks they have but they need some depth there with experience.

 
I would feel more comfortable about the inexperience at corner with Harris and Smith back there than just Smith.

There are some good safety prospects in the draft. I think they are going to play more zone and having the safeties makes that more effective.

If they traded one of the firsts for a 2nd and 3rd then they could likely upgrade pick 58 for the cost of the 3rd they gained and  get another top 50 pick.

 
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Another option (and I think someone mentioned it earlier) would be to draft Kenneth Murray and move Barr to DE. I kind of like the options that would give the team.

 
FunkyPlutos said:
Another option (and I think someone mentioned it earlier) would be to draft Kenneth Murray and move Barr to DE. I kind of like the options that would give the team.
That is an interesting idea.

We have not seen Ifeadi Odenigbo play enough to know how good he will be on base downs against the run. He only played 33.6% of the snaps last season and most of those were in passing situations. We have seen he can play end or 3 technique as a pass rusher well. I don't think he fits the role of a 3-4 5 technique defensive end to force the double team and keep the OLB free from the tackle, but maybe he can?

Or maybe if they do use Barr as an edge rusher they have someone else next to him on early downs?

I will believe it when I see it. Been hearing about Barr rushing the passer more every year he has been here. Adding another LB who can cover would free him up for that type of role though. I am still on the fence about how good Eric Wilson is in coverage. I don't feel comfortable with him doing that as much as Barr has been. I think Barr is better than Wilson.

The Vikings have been a 4-3 for as long as I can remember. I'm still targeting guys that iMarinelli or Tony Dungy would want. On that note Rod Marinelli went to the Raiders and they signed Maliek Collins who would be much better than Shamar Stephen.

If they are going to play some 3-4 then they might be interested in different defensive linemen such as  Raekwon Davis who are essentially off my board when drafting for the 4-3 and NT already covered.

Speaking of NT here is another nice article" Vikings Next Man Up: DT Armon Watts

 
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Ok, not believing the OBJ rumors, BUT if the Browns would be interested in Anthony Harris, I could see them making some sort of move that wouldn't cost them a 1st or 2nd rounder...that I could live with...thoughts?

 
Ok, not believing the OBJ rumors, BUT if the Browns would be interested in Anthony Harris, I could see them making some sort of move that wouldn't cost them a 1st or 2nd rounder...that I could live with...thoughts?
Totally agree. I love watching OBJ make plays but there's very low chance they welcome him into this locker room or cut players to fit his $14M-$15M cap number. I do like the idea of the Vikes using Harris or draft pick ammo to fill holes... but it has to make sense.

 
Adam Thielen was undrafted and Diggs was a 5th rounder.   Spielman was burned not so long ago by Treadwell and Patterson.  This is why I expect the Vikings will be spending a lot of draft picks on wide outs in the late rounds.  IMO it would really feed Spielman's ego to get another potential star from the back of the draft.  

 
Adam Thielen was undrafted and Diggs was a 5th rounder.   Spielman was burned not so long ago by Treadwell and Patterson.  This is why I expect the Vikings will be spending a lot of draft picks on wide outs in the late rounds.  IMO it would really feed Spielman's ego to get another potential star from the back of the draft.  
True!

Also, looking at Thielen, Sharpe, Johnson and Beebe (he looked decent in the short time he was healthy) - it isn't ideal but not completely bare either. Especially with Irv Smith flashing his talent at times last year and it being a deep WR class, I'm expecting OL and CB in the first round contrary to what everyone is saying in mock drafts. 

 
I think it's more likely they pick two defensive players in the first - like defensive lineman and a corner.

Madubuike/Blacklock/Davidson with one and Arnette/Diggs/Fulton/Igbinoghene with the second.

 
Right now according to Sportrac and OvertheCap say the Vikings have $12 million available in cap space.

OBJs contract is $14 million and stays that price for the remainder of his contract. For 2020 according to OTC OBJ has $11 million guaranteed and if the Browns were to release him they could save 3 million but would still have to pay the 11 million that is guaranteed if they trade him? That is not clear to me who pays the $11 million.

If the Vikings would have to pay OBJ $14 then yes it would make sense to pay that by trading them Anthony Harris whos contract is worth about that right now as well. Other options would be Riley Reiff, Kyle Rudolph and Shamar Stephens but because of guarantees in their contracts, not much saving can be found by releasing/moving them. 8 million for Reiff, 3 million for Rudolph and 1 million for Stephen are the savings the Vikings could find there.

So if the Browns are not eating that $11 million by trading him, the deal is too cost prohibitive for the Vikings to do, in part because they are paying Diggs $9 million in dead cap for trading him to the Bills. Which is what makes me think that if Browns traded OBJ to the Vikings, they would be on the hook for the $11 million not the Vikings. But that does not seem to be the case for some reason? Its complicated. The Giants should have ate all OBJ guaranteed money when they traded him to the Browns, yet I am still seeing this $11 million cap hit for the Browns if they move him. 

 
I think it's more likely they pick two defensive players in the first - like defensive lineman and a corner.

Madubuike/Blacklock/Davidson with one and Arnette/Diggs/Fulton/Igbinoghene with the second.
A name I keep seeing moving up into the 20's who I think might make a lot of sense for the Vikings is Ezra Cleveland. He 100% is a Kubiak type of OT, and would allow them to kick Reiff inside.

Of those CB's you mentioned, I think Fulton would be the only one I'd be ok with at 25. I might just be making up a narrative in my head, but I can't imagine drafting Diggs after trading his brother, and that is crazy high for Arnette or Igbinoghene. What about AJ Terrell?

It'll never happen, but I don't think it'd be a bad idea to go CB at both 22 and 25.

 
It just be freely surprised if they went o-line in the first. They just don't seem serious about replacing Reiff. 

They're not in a great place to take a CB. After Okudah and Henderson are off the board there's no real stud to count on. I don't think scouts like Terrell that much. Another name  you could consider is Jeff Gladney.

 
In the CBS mocks Cleveland would be the only tackle left as 5 or 6 of the other guys were already gone by pick 22.

I'm not against it. I think he would be a good fit. 

The value around 20 does seem good for corners and there are 4 or more of them worth picking there I think.

Similar to WR though, there are enough options that I think they could trade down, pick up an extra pick and still get one of those 8 to 10 guys top half of round 2.

I did fool around with trading down with both picks, but I think they should keep and use one of them for a lineman on either side of the ball.

 
The Vikings would have to pay the salary for OBJ 11 million of it is guaranteed. The Browns won't eat that.

Sorry for my confusion about that a bit ago.

 
Probably won't happen but after years of wishing we could fix the OL I wish we could just bite the bullet this year and if the right players are there go OL with both of the first round picks.  After all these years of trying to patch together a line with projects and questionable overvalued free agents if the right prospects are available I'd love to get two potential studs to anchor the line for the next 10 years.  They should be able to find value prospects at CB and DL in the rest of the draft and let Zimmer and Patterson coach them up and develop them.  So tired of our OL being something we need to work around, let's get that solid this year.

 

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