MVP (1 Viewer)

[Chaka]

And where would the Colts be without Manning? The Pats without Brady?

Why is everyone focusing on that quote when much of my post was a defense of Manning?

 

[CalBear]

Chargers homer here, but Rivers is the only reason this team has had a chance.

If he pulls them into playoff contention by the time voting is conducted, I can't see how he doesn't win this.

Vick has been out of his mind, but missed alot of the season. If he stays healthy and keeps tearing up other teams, he might get the nod (although comeback player of the year would be more appropriate?)

And where would the Colts be without Manning? The Pats without Brady?

11-5?

This year? To be fair that was an 18-1 team Cassel took over.Moss was still playing fairly hard and Cassel is probably a tad better than...who? Seriously, without looking it up who is their backup this year? (Yes I actually knew it was Cassel at the time, always liked him as a prospect because there was no shame in being beat out by Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart at that time).

Cassel is 10-15 as a starter since he left, so it's not like he's the second coming of anything. Maybe New England wouldn't be 11-5 without Brady this year, but it's already been shown that they can be effective with a backup QB. Should Brady not have gotten the MVP in 2007 because he had a backup who was capable of guiding that team to 10+ wins?

 

[JD in the Valley]

So without Vick do u see philly even sniffing 500 ?? especially with there rough sched this year ? i see a 5-11 6-10 team

But Philly is not 5-11 or 6-10 now, let's compare apples to appleshilly is 7-3, with games coming @Chi, Hou, @Dall, @NYG, Minn, DallOur guess is with Vick, they finish 11-5, with Kolb 9-7.The Giants are 6-4, missing Nicks and Smith, with games with Jax, Wash, @MN, Phil, @GB @Wash.I see them finishing 9-7 at best with who they have right now.But you take away Peyton, Rivers, those teams don't win any more games.You take away Brady, Belichek might find a way to win a few.Brees: you have Billy Volek(?), you win a few.Rodgers, I don't know.

 

[Chaka]

Chargers homer here, but Rivers is the only reason this team has had a chance.

If he pulls them into playoff contention by the time voting is conducted, I can't see how he doesn't win this.

Vick has been out of his mind, but missed alot of the season. If he stays healthy and keeps tearing up other teams, he might get the nod (although comeback player of the year would be more appropriate?)

And where would the Colts be without Manning? The Pats without Brady?

11-5?

This year? To be fair that was an 18-1 team Cassel took over.Moss was still playing fairly hard and Cassel is probably a tad better than...who? Seriously, without looking it up who is their backup this year? (Yes I actually knew it was Cassel at the time, always liked him as a prospect because there was no shame in being beat out by Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart at that time).

Cassel is 10-15 as a starter since he left, so it's not like he's the second coming of anything. Maybe New England wouldn't be 11-5 without Brady this year, but it's already been shown that they can be effective with a backup QB. Should Brady not have gotten the MVP in 2007 because he had a backup who was capable of guiding that team to 10+ wins?

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

 

[CalBear]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

 

[Chaka]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

I really don't have any idea what point you are trying to make because just about none of what you are saying has anything to do with my OP.

 

[CalBear]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

I really don't have any idea what point you are trying to make because just about none of what you are saying has anything to do with my OP.

Your question, "where would <team> be without <player>?" is the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is, where are they with him? You can't punish someone for having a good backup.

 

[Sebowski]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

I was going to post the same thing. I don't think it's fair to hold a guy's backup against them. I know it is easy to do when you try to define what MVP really means. Your Montana example is a perfect illustration of that.

 

[Chaka]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

I really don't have any idea what point you are trying to make because just about none of what you are saying has anything to do with my OP.

Your question, "where would <team> be without <player>?" is the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is, where are they with him? You can't punish someone for having a good backup.

That's fine, I don't think Hoyer and Painter could replicate Cassel's success even if they were on the 2008 Pats but that's neither here nor there. My response was to point out that the argument for Rivers was the same as the argument for Manning and Brady "Where would team X be without their QB?" pretty much every team would suck without their top 5 QB. Every now and again you run into a Hostetler or Cassel but for the most part you suck when you lose your top 5 QB.Even though I made a case for both Manning and Brady I stated in my OP that I voted Roddy White.

 

[Insein]

I think QBs are terribly overrated...or perhaps it is better to say that they receive too much of the credit for success and too much of the blame for failure.And saying Cassel is 10-15 on the Chiefs in 1 1/2 years really isn't much of an argument either way. They were awful when he signed and they have been improving in what seems to be a potentially significant fashion. Time will tell but I wouldn't have called it a career for him after 11-5 and I won't call it after 21-20 either.

The point is, the fact that New England had a backup capable of putting together 10+ wins if Brady went down doesn't have any bearing on whether Brady deserved the MVP or not. Should Joe Montana not have won the MVP in 1989 and 1990 because he had Steve Young as a backup? It's not relevant.

I was going to post the same thing. I don't think it's fair to hold a guy's backup against them. I know it is easy to do when you try to define what MVP really means. Your Montana example is a perfect illustration of that.

It does illustrate how much is the player and how much is the system. Vick is excelling because the system allows him too. He's playing better than he ever has but he's not the MVP. Rivers is playing at a level above what he ever has before and is above what anyone else is doing this season. His team has the #1 offense for yards and the #3 for scoring. Not really him thats caused them to be 5-5.

 

[Buffaloes]

voted Brady

 

[stuckinthemuck]

Aren't these flaws in logic?

Because X never happened before it will never happen in the future.

His team would be even worse if he weren't playing for them.

The fact that no one has ever won Comeback Player of the Year award and MVP in the same year doesn't prevent it from happening this year.

Where would the Browns be without Peyton Hillis? The Steelers without Troy Polamalu (actually, we already know what happens without him).

 

[Tau837]

Aren't these flaws in logic?

Because X never happened before it will never happen in the future.

His team would be even worse if he weren't playing for them.

The fact that no one has ever won Comeback Player of the Year award and MVP in the same year doesn't prevent it from happening this year.

Where would the Browns be without Peyton Hillis? The Steelers without Troy Polamalu (actually, we already know what happens without him).

I don't believe anyone has said the first one in this thread. I pointed out that no player has ever missed 3+ games in a non strike season and won MVP, meaning it would be unprecedented if Vick wins. I didn't say that makes it impossible, but I think it highlights that he is probably a longer shot than many people think. Not because voters sit around and think that no one has ever done it before and so they shouldn't vote for him, but rather for the same reasons voters didn't choose another player in that situation in the past: it's hard to have a more impressive case in 13 games than every other NFL player, when many other players who had/are having great seasons played/will play 16 games.