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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

I'll be laughing pretty hard if the Wolves end up getting anything like that haul from CHI and CLE gets bumped out of the playoffs by the Bulls next year. "NO LEVERAGE"

 
Sammy3469 said:
Poor Tre and frosty.

When did Gibson learn to shoot?
Click to expand...
If we've still got Pek and Martin, Gibson doesn't need to do anything other than play D and grab boards. Add in McBuckets playing some SF and I don't think we'll be wanting for points. We'll still have issues defensively, though, I think.

 
What I will miss if they go with the CHI deal, however, is all the HST's turning on LeBron.

The seeds are already there. LeBron pushing the kid out the door to handpick a 3rd star is already making people like this homecoming a little less than if it were more "organic".

If CLE deals Wiggins for Love and doesn't make the Finals, it's going to be a ####show.

 
Any chance the bulls then go to Cleveland and offer love for wiggins and filler? Thibs is all about defense, right?

#scola

 
What could CLE reasonably do through FA next year to shore up the interior? I don't think Millsap will get anything approaching a max deal, and I think he'd fit beautifully there. Any chance they could clear space to make a run at Gasol? Maybe talk him into taking a Spurs-style title run discount? Amir to do the dirty work if Wiggins develops into a decent third scoring option? Doesn't sound like Aldridge is going anywhere. I wouldn't trust Brook Lopez. Not sure who else will be there...

If CLE's other starters mirror Lebron's past teammates, the shooters should see a notable bump in efficiency, so I'm not sure they need Love's floor stretching all that badly. I'm not sure keeping Wiggins and adding a decent part next year makes their five-year total-titles outlook any dimmer, overall. :shrug:

 
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mcintyre1 said:
Sammy3469 said:
Poor Tre and frosty.

When did Gibson learn to shoot?
Click to expand...
If we've still got Pek and Martin, Gibson doesn't need to do anything other than play D and grab boards. Add in McBuckets playing some SF and I don't think we'll be wanting for points. We'll still have issues defensively, though, I think.
Click to expand...
Teams will just collapse on Pek with that lineup especially with Rubio having the ball. Even with Mirotic at the 3, the floor spacing would be abysmal.

 
I bet most of these reported "offers" are being leaked by Minnesota to make it look like they've got more leverage than they really have.

 
mcintyre1 said:
Sammy3469 said:
Poor Tre and frosty.

When did Gibson learn to shoot?
Click to expand...
If we've still got Pek and Martin, Gibson doesn't need to do anything other than play D and grab boards. Add in McBuckets playing some SF and I don't think we'll be wanting for points. We'll still have issues defensively, though, I think.
Click to expand...
Mirotic would be the x factor in that deal, imo. I like Dougie, but his upside is pretty limited imo. Gibson is a nice D guy, but he's not young and soon to be not cheap. Mirotic really needs to be a Dirk Jr. anything other than a borderline playoff/borderline lottery squad I think.

 
Notorious T.R.E. said:
mcintyre1 said:
Sammy3469 said:
Poor Tre and frosty.

When did Gibson learn to shoot?
Click to expand...
If we've still got Pek and Martin, Gibson doesn't need to do anything other than play D and grab boards. Add in McBuckets playing some SF and I don't think we'll be wanting for points. We'll still have issues defensively, though, I think.
Click to expand...
Mirotic would be the x factor in that deal, imo. I like Dougie, but his upside is pretty limited imo. Gibson is a nice D guy, but he's not young and soon to be not cheap. Mirotic really needs to be a Dirk Jr. anything other than a borderline playoff/borderline lottery squad I think.
Click to expand...
I don't buy this offer at all. Mirotic had to buy out his Spanish contract - he had to have assurances from Chicago that he wouldn't be moved right away.

 
Notorious T.R.E. said:
MOAR Sheridan:

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 11m

.@knicksdude Chicago's offer dwarfs Cleveland's, IMO. #Twolves would get 3 starters (or 2 + McBuckets) who can shoot, defend, rebound.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 25s

.@Coach_JDJ If #TWolves go into full rebuild, they're at risk of losing Ricky Rubio. He doesn't want a rebuild. #Bulls offer fills 3 spots.
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 22s

.@chancy1993 Yes. Flip wants to win immediately. This trade would give him that chance. Same with Warriors trade if K.Thompson included.
Click to expand...
This is all that matters. From my eyes, nothing can match the Cavs offer. But Flip wants to win now. So that makes someone like Taj Gibson a valuable piece. Just not sure how viable this is in the Western Conference at the moment.

I just don't see how McBuckets and Mirotic are that valuable. Yes, people were rumored to want Mirotic with a top 10 pick this year and McBuckets went at 11 but guys like Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett were all better prospects than these guys in their drafts. Heck, people are in love with McDermott's summer league production but downplaying Bennetts. Yet, Bennett is over a year younger than McDermott.

 
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sporthenry said:
Notorious T.R.E. said:
MOAR Sheridan:

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 11m

.@knicksdude Chicago's offer dwarfs Cleveland's, IMO. #Twolves would get 3 starters (or 2 + McBuckets) who can shoot, defend, rebound.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 25s

.@Coach_JDJ If #TWolves go into full rebuild, they're at risk of losing Ricky Rubio. He doesn't want a rebuild. #Bulls offer fills 3 spots.
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 22s

.@chancy1993 Yes. Flip wants to win immediately. This trade would give him that chance. Same with Warriors trade if K.Thompson included.
Click to expand...
This is all that matters. From my eyes, nothing can match the Cavs offer. But Flip wants to win now. So that makes someone like Taj Gibson a valuable piece. Just not sure how viable this is in the Western Conference at the moment.

I just don't see how McBuckets and Mirotic are that valuable. Yes, people were rumored to want Mirotic with a top 10 pick this year and McBuckets went at 11 but guys like Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett were all better prospects than these guys in their drafts. Heck, people are in love with McDermott's summer league production but downplaying Bennetts. Yet, Bennett is over a year younger than McDermott.
Click to expand...
Quit making sense

 
sporthenry said:
Notorious T.R.E. said:
MOAR Sheridan:

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 11m

.@knicksdude Chicago's offer dwarfs Cleveland's, IMO. #Twolves would get 3 starters (or 2 + McBuckets) who can shoot, defend, rebound.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 25s

.@Coach_JDJ If #TWolves go into full rebuild, they're at risk of losing Ricky Rubio. He doesn't want a rebuild. #Bulls offer fills 3 spots.
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 22s

.@chancy1993 Yes. Flip wants to win immediately. This trade would give him that chance. Same with Warriors trade if K.Thompson included.
Click to expand...
This is all that matters. From my eyes, nothing can match the Cavs offer. But Flip wants to win now. So that makes someone like Taj Gibson a valuable piece. Just not sure how viable this is in the Western Conference at the moment.

I just don't see how McBuckets and Mirotic are that valuable. Yes, people were rumored to want Mirotic with a top 10 pick this year and McBuckets went at 11 but guys like Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett were all better prospects than these guys in their drafts. Heck, people are in love with McDermott's summer league production but downplaying Bennetts. Yet, Bennett is over a year younger than McDermott.
Click to expand...
Don't assume those guys were better prospects just because of draft spot. This year's draft was freaky deep at the top, and lot of this year's also-rans would be contenders for a top spot in leaner years.

 
Freelove said:
What could CLE reasonably do through FA next year to shore up the interior? I don't think Millsap will get anything approaching a max deal, and I think he'd fit beautifully there. Any chance they could clear space to make a run at Gasol? Maybe talk him into taking a Spurs-style title run discount? Amir to do the dirty work if Wiggins develops into a decent third scoring option? Doesn't sound like Aldridge is going anywhere. I wouldn't trust Brook Lopez. Not sure who else will be there...

If CLE's other starters mirror Lebron's past teammates, the shooters should see a notable bump in efficiency, so I'm not sure they need Love's floor stretching all that badly. I'm not sure keeping Wiggins and adding a decent part next year makes their five-year total-titles outlook any dimmer, overall. :shrug:
Click to expand...
I doubt they'd be able to talk Millsap or Lopez or Amir in for the amount of money they'd have available. Pau signed a 3 yr/ 22M contract with the Bulls, not sure if there's an out there.

 
Meant Marc, not Pau.

But I'm not assuming anything in terms of what cap space they currently have available. We all know that when acquisitions have to be made, roster gymnastics need to be performed. I think they could probably clear the decks enough for what a Millsap might demand. Especially given the gravitas Lebron seems to carry, and the willingness of people to bend over backwards to play with him.

As I understand it, they'd be stuck to something like a midlevel if they do nothing. Is that right? I'm no capologist, so I'm genuinely wondering. Isn't it possible they could shuffle deck chairs to clear space and add a better than mid-level big? Maybe it's not...

 
Freelove said:
sporthenry said:
Notorious T.R.E. said:
MOAR Sheridan:

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 11m

.@knicksdude Chicago's offer dwarfs Cleveland's, IMO. #Twolves would get 3 starters (or 2 + McBuckets) who can shoot, defend, rebound.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 25s

.@Coach_JDJ If #TWolves go into full rebuild, they're at risk of losing Ricky Rubio. He doesn't want a rebuild. #Bulls offer fills 3 spots.
Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 22s

.@chancy1993 Yes. Flip wants to win immediately. This trade would give him that chance. Same with Warriors trade if K.Thompson included.
Click to expand...
This is all that matters. From my eyes, nothing can match the Cavs offer. But Flip wants to win now. So that makes someone like Taj Gibson a valuable piece. Just not sure how viable this is in the Western Conference at the moment.

I just don't see how McBuckets and Mirotic are that valuable. Yes, people were rumored to want Mirotic with a top 10 pick this year and McBuckets went at 11 but guys like Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett were all better prospects than these guys in their drafts. Heck, people are in love with McDermott's summer league production but downplaying Bennetts. Yet, Bennett is over a year younger than McDermott.
Click to expand...
Don't assume those guys were better prospects just because of draft spot. This year's draft was freaky deep at the top, and lot of this year's also-rans would be contenders for a top spot in leaner years.
Click to expand...
I understand it isn't apples to apples. Bennett was a stretch at #1 but McDermott wasn't going #1 overall last year. Bennett would likely have gone higher than him this year especially when you consider his age. Mirotic went 23rd in the same draft Thompson went 4th. Some of that is attributed to Mirotic not coming over but enough for 19 spots?

Of course this gets into the difficulty of trying to separate potential from actual. Thompson, Waiters, and even Bennett have all been in the league. For the most part, we know about them. None have lived up to their draft spots but I don't think they are busts (giving Bennett some benefit of the doubt). And I think people forget about age in this. They see rookies as all the same. Will Mirotic come in and be better then Thompson because they are the same age? Will McDermott be better than Waiters now or Bennett in a year?

 
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Paulymaggs said:
Why would CHI even entertain adding Love? :shrug:

They going to play him at SF? :topcat:
Click to expand...
Pau would come off the bench, and that's probably the best spot for him. I'm not real sure how folks got to be so excited about a 34 YO rapidly declining Pau being a huge addition and somebody you want starting on a title contender.

 
I lol'd at the line that "rubio doesnt want a rebuild"

Rubio should be glad the T Wolves will even offer him a 10M+ contract when he is an RFA, not sure they give a crap about what he thinks of a rebuild if that is what they want to do.

 
Why is no team with tons of cap room making a play for Monroe? That dude can probably be had with 11-12M since Pistons probably aren't sure he is worth tying up their cap space for next few years.

I really think he can be good without playing for a team with a million bigs who clog the lane for him.

 
I'm pretty sure that we're all in agreement that the Cleveland/Wiggins offer is better, especially when considering you get a pick or two (albeit probably late round).

If Flip is doing this for Rubio or to win now, seems like a poor move, but I still wouldn't feel like we were left holding the bag.

If we're talking a non-Wiggins CLE offer, I'd rather have Chicago Whiteys.

 
Notorious T.R.E. said:
MOAR Sheridan:

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 11m

.@knicksdude Chicago's offer dwarfs Cleveland's, IMO. #Twolves would get 3 starters (or 2 + McBuckets) who can shoot, defend, rebound.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 25s

.@Coach_JDJ If #TWolves go into full rebuild, they're at risk of losing Ricky Rubio. He doesn't want a rebuild. #Bulls offer fills 3 spots.

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops · 22s

.@chancy1993 Yes. Flip wants to win immediately. This trade would give him that chance. Same with Warriors trade if K.Thompson included.
Click to expand...
And by "win now" that means they want to be a 10 seed again?

 
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11251473/why-trading-kevin-love-no-brainer-nba?refresh=true

Because this is the Internet, camps have formed since the Cleveland Cavaliers signed LeBron James and began exploring the possibility of trading No. 1 overall pick Andrew Wiggins to the Minnesota Timberwolves as part of a package for Kevin Love. Are you #TeamWiggins or #TeamLove?

Though it's certainly possible to be part of #TeamWiggins because of belief in his upside and the value of his cheap rookie contract, the debate has highlighted that not everyone is sold that Love is a superstar. As someone who's on the record believing that Love is a top-five player in the NBA and one of the most valuable to ever hit the trade market, let me explain why.

An elite scorer

We'll start with this: Love is not just a good scorer, he's a great one. He has managed to expand his perimeter game without sacrificing his interior scoring and trips to the free throw line. Last season, Love was one of four players in the league to average at least two 3-pointers and six free throws per game. (Love, who averaged 2.5 3s and 6.8 FTs, cleared both marks with ease.) The rest of the group, per Basketball-Reference.com: Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant and James Harden.

Because so much of his offense comes in the efficient spots around the basket, at the free throw line and beyond the 3-point arc, Love has pushed his usage rate to superstar territory the past three seasons without sacrificing his efficiency, as measured by true shooting percentage. Here's how the league as a whole rated by these two measures last season:

[graph here I can't cut and paste]

I've marked on the chart league averages (a 20 percent usage rate and a .541 true shooting percentage) and the line that reflects the typical trade-off between usage and efficiency. A player anywhere along that line is approximately an average scorer, and the farther that players are above it, the better they are. Let's zoom in on the top right quadrant, featuring players who are above average in both categories.

[moar graph]

This time, I've shifted the line upward to make it easier to separate the best of the best scorers. Durant and LeBron James stand on their own. As I wrote during the season, Durant and James have shattered the previous threshold for the combination of usage and efficiency. Behind them are Harden and Stephen Curry, who are more efficient than any other non-MVP high scorers. Love and Dirk Nowitzki make up the third tier, ahead of less efficient players who use more possessions like Anthony and Russell Westbrook.

More than just a scorer


Love's work on the glass is well established. His rebound totals overstate his ability because Love plays more minutes than rebounding specialists, and spending so much time on the perimeter has made him merely an average offensive rebounder. Still, Love ranked fifth among regular players in defensive rebound rate in 2013-14.

Beyond that, Love improved the passing dimension of his game last season, in part because of the chemistry he developed throwing outlet passes to Corey Brewer. He handed out assists more frequently per play than George Hill or Patty Mills. Among big men, only Joakim Noah of the Chicago Bulls had a better assist rate than Love.

Numbers don't support Love as a defensive liability

Even the biggest Love skeptic would concede his prowess as a scorer and rebounder -- right before bringing up the defensive end. Here's the thing: It's hard to find statistical support for the widespread notion that Love is a defensive turnstile.

It's possible to highlight stats that showcase Love's defensive shortcomings, particularly as a rim protector. New SportVU player-tracking data on NBA.com showed that last season opponents shot 57.4 percent when Love was within five feet of attempts near the rim, the league's fourth-worst rate among players who defended at least five rim attempts per game.

However, opponent shooting percentage tells only half of the story. Love's reluctance to contest shots also kept him out of foul trouble and opponents off the free throw line. His 1.8 fouls per 36 minutes were the fewest of any regular big man last season (no one else was below 2.0 per 36), and not coincidentally, the Timberwolves allowed the league's lowest rate of free throws per field goal attempt. The trade-off between not fouling and surrendering layups didn't always work out for Minnesota and former coach Rick Adelman encouraged his team to foul more frequently, but looking at opponent shooting percentages without context is unfair to Love.

There's also the matter of rebounding. For individual players, defensive rebounding is not as valuable as offensive rebounding because many defensive rebounds are discretionary -- another defender will get the rebound if one individual does not -- but it's still part of defense, and the Timberwolves have had a better defensive rebound percentage with Love on the court every season of his career. Last season, per NBA.com/Stats, they rebounded 75.3 percent of opponents' misses with Love and 72.4 percent when he was on the bench.

Add it up and ESPN's real plus-minus shows Love as an above-average defensive player, even for a big man. (Post players rate better on defense in plus-minus metrics as compared to perimeter players.) And despite playing Love with another poor rim protector in center Nikola Pekovic, Minnesota was average defensively last season.

Why Wolves haven't won

The biggest Love criticism isn't defense. It's his team's record.

"Love is so overrated," one NBA executive told Insider's Jeff Goodman last week. "He's never won."

No Love For Wolves
As bad as the Timberwolves have been overall, they have been worse without Love. As the chart at right shows [didn't paste], according to NBA.com/Stats only once in his six seasons has Minnesota been outscored by fewer than 4.7 points per 100 possessions -- a mark equivalent to last season's Detroit Pistons -- with Love on the bench. That came in 2012-13, when Love was limited to 18 games after breaking a bone in his hand during training camp.

Last season, the Timberwolves outscored opponents by 4.4 points per 100 possessions with Love on the floor, a mark similar to the Miami Heat with Ray Allen, for one. They were done in by their poor bench -- exacerbated by Adelman playing his starters together, which inflated their ratings at the expense of reserves -- and a historic inability to win close games. Minnesota finished with the league's 10th-best point differential, which would have ranked fourth in the East.

Even discounting those issues, the Timberwolves' combination of a high-rated star and a below-.500 finish was rare but not unprecedented. Love joined five other examples since the ABA-NBA merger, including Michael Jordan twice, of a player posting 20-plus wins above replacement player for a sub-.500 team.

Player........Team..Year..WARP..Win%
Kevin Garnett..MIN..2006..20.2..402
Charles BarkleyPHI..1988..23.1..439
Michael Jordan.CHI..1985..20.3..463
Kevin Love.....MIN..2014..20.3..488
Michael Jordan.CHI..1987..22.5..488
Moses Malone...HOU..1981..20.6..488

[Awesome that this is half Wolves]

While Jordan's Bulls grew into a contender later in his career (his appearances above came in his first and third seasons), Barkley, Garnett and Malone enjoyed newfound team success after changing uniforms. Malone and Garnett both won championships in their first season with their new teams, while Barkley's Suns reached the Finals in his first season. Barkley and Malone both were named MVP the year after their trades, and Garnett finished third in the voting.

In all those cases, it turned out that the problem was the rest of the team, not the star. The statistical evidence suggests a similar re-evaluation will take place if Love is traded to a team that can better support his unique skills.
Click to expand...
 
biggamer3 said:
Why is no team with tons of cap room making a play for Monroe? That dude can probably be had with 11-12M since Pistons probably aren't sure he is worth tying up their cap space for next few years.

I really think he can be good without playing for a team with a million bigs who clog the lane for him.
Click to expand...
Pistons would match an 11-12M offer. In fact they've supposedly offered him 5/60 to stay.

Monroe is hesitant to sign an offer sheet because the Pistons would just match it and then he's stuck. He would be more open to a long-term deal if they got rid of Josh Smith.

The Pistons would like to get rid of Smith, but there's not a lot of teams lining up for that contract. They got one terrible offer from Sacramento and that's it.

If the Pistons can't keep Monroe, they would prefer to do a sign-and-trade rather than just letting him walk for free.

It's not clear if Monroe wants out bad enough to play for the 5.5M qualifying offer this year.

So at this point it's all just a standoff, which could last until the October deadline for Monroe to sign.

 
Per source: Forman put a deadline on TWolves response so that there isn't this back-and-forth playing the Cavs and Bulls against each other.

 
Spartans Rule said:
biggamer3 said:
Why is no team with tons of cap room making a play for Monroe? That dude can probably be had with 11-12M since Pistons probably aren't sure he is worth tying up their cap space for next few years.

I really think he can be good without playing for a team with a million bigs who clog the lane for him.
Click to expand...
Pistons would match an 11-12M offer. In fact they've supposedly offered him 5/60 to stay.

Monroe is hesitant to sign an offer sheet because the Pistons would just match it and then he's stuck. He would be more open to a long-term deal if they got rid of Josh Smith.

The Pistons would like to get rid of Smith, but there's not a lot of teams lining up for that contract. They got one terrible offer from Sacramento and that's it.

If the Pistons can't keep Monroe, they would prefer to do a sign-and-trade rather than just letting him walk for free.

It's not clear if Monroe wants out bad enough to play for the 5.5M qualifying offer this year.

So at this point it's all just a standoff, which could last until the October deadline for Monroe to sign.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that, it makes perfect sense. Monroe is smart not to sign up with them long term since Smith is absolutely toxic to Monroe's game. Also having a horrible PG in Jennings doesn't make it any more appealing to stay in D Town long term.

 
Spartans Rule said:
biggamer3 said:
Why is no team with tons of cap room making a play for Monroe? That dude can probably be had with 11-12M since Pistons probably aren't sure he is worth tying up their cap space for next few years.

I really think he can be good without playing for a team with a million bigs who clog the lane for him.
Click to expand...
Pistons would match an 11-12M offer. In fact they've supposedly offered him 5/60 to stay.

Monroe is hesitant to sign an offer sheet because the Pistons would just match it and then he's stuck. He would be more open to a long-term deal if they got rid of Josh Smith.

The Pistons would like to get rid of Smith, but there's not a lot of teams lining up for that contract. They got one terrible offer from Sacramento and that's it.

If the Pistons can't keep Monroe, they would prefer to do a sign-and-trade rather than just letting him walk for free.

It's not clear if Monroe wants out bad enough to play for the 5.5M qualifying offer this year.

So at this point it's all just a standoff, which could last until the October deadline for Monroe to sign.
Click to expand...
I don't understand how some teams could think a guy they just signed as an UFA 12 months ago would have any trade value.

Trade value for an UFA that's not a no doubt max guy should theoretically be something close to zero the moment they sign. The only thing that would change that would be overplaying the contract (rare), some team that wanted him clearing cap space, or well, when you are dealing with Kings.

 
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Notorious T.R.E. said:
Emiliano Carchia @sportando 4 minutes ago

Sixers not so high on Dion Waiters according to @paxer89 sportando.com/en/usa/nba/128…

Who is, Emiliano?
Click to expand...
Sixers have been tied to Waiters since last year. Google Waiters/Sixers and you get tons of hits about their interest. I'm sure they aren't very high on him b/c he isn't very efficient but still a young guy on a rookie contract. Sixers need a SG and it gets them something for Thad. Imagine they'd prefer picks but I'd say they would do it. Not to mention, Waiters is from Philly so maybe that does something.
 
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