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NFL Network's list of top ten Steelers of all time (1 Viewer)

timschochet

Footballguy
1. Mean Joe Greene

2. Terry Bradshaw

3. Franco Harris

4. Rod Woodson

5. Jack Lambert

6. Mel Blount

7. Troy Polamalu

8. Hines Ward

9. Lynn Swann

10. Jerome Bettis

Notables they left out(which I would consider): Ben Roethlisberger, Jack Ham, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Andy Russell, James Harrison, Ernie Stautner

Very surprised that Rod Woodson went so high. His best years as a Steeler were from 90-94; he got injured in 95 and never fully recovered until he left the team. He also is the only one on the top 10 who doesn't have a ring (as a Steeler.). I also don't think, that for all his flashiness, Lynn Swann was a better receiver than Stallworth. But I actually would likely have left them both off and placed Big Ben in the top 10 somewhere.

I don't think Joe Greene is the most talented player the Steelers ever had, but I can understand putting him #1 because he was the face of the franchise during the years of its greatest success.

Thoughts?

 
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1. Mean Joe Greene2. Terry Bradshaw3. Franco Harris4. Rod Woodson5. Jack Lambert6. Mel Blount7. Troy Polamalu8. Hines Ward9. Lynn Swann10. Jerome BettisNotables they left out(which I would consider): Ben Roethlisberger, Jack Ham, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Andy Russell, James Harrison, Ernie StautnerVery surprised that Rod Woodson went so high. His best years as a Steeler were from 90-94; he got injured in 95 and never fully recovered until he left the team. He also is the only one on the top 10 who doesn't have a ring (as a Steeler.). I also don't think, that for all his flashiness, Lynn Swann was a better receiver than Stallworth. But I actually would likely have left them both off and placed Big Ben in the top 10 somewhere. I don't think Joe Greene is the most talented player the Steelers ever had, but I can understand putting him #1 because he was the face of the franchise during the years of its greatest success. Thoughts?
I'm not a Steelers fan, and I am certainly no Steelers historian, but I think this list is better:1. Greene2. Bradshaw3. Lambert4. Blount5. Harris6. Woodson7. Webster8. Ham9. Roethlisberger10. StautnerVery tough call for the #10 spot... IMO Polamalu may very well end up deserving it, and Bettis, Swann, Stallworth, and Ward are all worthy of strong consideration.
 
1. Mean Joe Greene2. Terry Bradshaw3. Franco Harris4. Rod Woodson5. Jack Lambert6. Mel Blount7. Troy Polamalu8. Hines Ward9. Lynn Swann10. Jerome BettisNotables they left out(which I would consider): Ben Roethlisberger, Jack Ham, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Andy Russell, James Harrison, Ernie StautnerVery surprised that Rod Woodson went so high. His best years as a Steeler were from 90-94; he got injured in 95 and never fully recovered until he left the team. He also is the only one on the top 10 who doesn't have a ring (as a Steeler.). I also don't think, that for all his flashiness, Lynn Swann was a better receiver than Stallworth. But I actually would likely have left them both off and placed Big Ben in the top 10 somewhere. I don't think Joe Greene is the most talented player the Steelers ever had, but I can understand putting him #1 because he was the face of the franchise during the years of its greatest success. Thoughts?
I'm not a Steelers fan, and I am certainly no Steelers historian, but I think this list is better:1. Greene2. Bradshaw3. Lambert4. Blount5. Harris6. Woodson7. Webster8. Ham9. Roethlisberger10. StautnerVery tough call for the #10 spot... IMO Polamalu may very well end up deserving it, and Bettis, Swann, Stallworth, and Ward are all worthy of strong consideration.
Dawson was better than Webster, but Webster has all the rings. I agree that Ham has to be somewhere on this list.
 
I like Rod Woodson, but I think he is way overrated on these types of things (see NFL Top 100). No way should he be at #4, nor should he be ranked higher than Blount.

 
Steelers, in order, from the NFL Network's Top 100 list:

Greene

Lambert

Woodson

Blount

Bradshaw

Ham

Webster

 
Bradshaw is ranked too high. This is the Steelers we are talking about. I would get the W.R.'s off of the list and move in L.B.s, maybe Roethlisberger, and a chin with some spittle. Also, maybe a beard to represent all of the great Steeler bearded players over the years.

Pittsburgh is Defense. At least in my mind.

 
Ham

Lambert

Mean Jo Green

Harrison-Porter (I think they may be the same guy)

Terrible Towel

Spittle chin with beard

Harris

Kevin Green

Woodson

The Hair

 
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1. Mean Joe Greene2. Terry Bradshaw3. Franco Harris4. Rod Woodson5. Jack Lambert6. Mel Blount7. Troy Polamalu8. Hines Ward9. Lynn Swann10. Jerome BettisNotables they left out(which I would consider): Ben Roethlisberger, Jack Ham, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Andy Russell, James Harrison, Ernie StautnerVery surprised that Rod Woodson went so high. His best years as a Steeler were from 90-94; he got injured in 95 and never fully recovered until he left the team. He also is the only one on the top 10 who doesn't have a ring (as a Steeler.). I also don't think, that for all his flashiness, Lynn Swann was a better receiver than Stallworth. But I actually would likely have left them both off and placed Big Ben in the top 10 somewhere. I don't think Joe Greene is the most talented player the Steelers ever had, but I can understand putting him #1 because he was the face of the franchise during the years of its greatest success. Thoughts?
I'm not a Steelers fan, and I am certainly no Steelers historian, but I think this list is better:1. Greene2. Bradshaw3. Lambert4. Blount5. Harris6. Woodson7. Webster8. Ham9. Roethlisberger10. StautnerVery tough call for the #10 spot... IMO Polamalu may very well end up deserving it, and Bettis, Swann, Stallworth, and Ward are all worthy of strong consideration.
Upon further reflection, I'd change the order a bit:1. Greene2. Lambert3. Blount4. Ham5. Bradshaw6. Webster7. Woodson8. Harris9. Roethlisberger10. StautnerSurprised there hasn't been much comment on Stautner.
 
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I was very surprised to see Woodson at 4. Great player, maybe the best athlete ever to play for the Steelers but not a top-5 Steeler of all-time. Mean Joe has to be number one, he was the top player on the best defense of all-time. There is some debate from 2-5 but I agree with the posters that slant 2/3 towards defense. I'd put Lambert and Blount at 2-3 in some order. I think Bradshaw and Franco have to be 4-5 in some order. After that it's wide open. If Ben wins his 3rd SB he's a legit top 5 Steeler, maybe ahead of Bradshaw. I don't think there's much debate that Ben will go down as the best Steelers QB of all-time.

My 6-10 would include: Ben, Hines, Polamalu, Ham and Woodson.

11-15: Bettis, Stallworth, Swann, tie Dirt Dawson/Mike Webster

 
woodson was very humble on that show and agreed that a number of other players shouldve been ahead of him IIRC

Ham instead of Bettis for sure

stallworth needs to be on that list but not sure who to remove.

 
I was very surprised to see Woodson at 4. Great player, maybe the best athlete ever to play for the Steelers but not a top-5 Steeler of all-time. Mean Joe has to be number one, he was the top player on the best defense of all-time. There is some debate from 2-5 but I agree with the posters that slant 2/3 towards defense. I'd put Lambert and Blount at 2-3 in some order. I think Bradshaw and Franco have to be 4-5 in some order. After that it's wide open. If Ben wins his 3rd SB he's a legit top 5 Steeler, maybe ahead of Bradshaw. I don't think there's much debate that Ben will go down as the best Steelers QB of all-time. My 6-10 would include: Ben, Hines, Polamalu, Ham and Woodson.11-15: Bettis, Stallworth, Swann, tie Dirt Dawson/Mike Webster
Wow, no respect for Webster here. And you really wouldn't have Stautner in your top 15?
 
I assume Kordell is #11?

Seriously though, there's no way Bettis belongs on this list. He only averaged over 4.0 in three of his ten years as a Steeler. I realize that average isn't everything when you are talking about a bruising back like Jerome, but I still see him as a player that was good for a long time but not great. Obviously I feel the same way in regards to him being a finalist for the HOF.

 
I was very surprised to see Woodson at 4. Great player, maybe the best athlete ever to play for the Steelers but not a top-5 Steeler of all-time. Mean Joe has to be number one, he was the top player on the best defense of all-time. There is some debate from 2-5 but I agree with the posters that slant 2/3 towards defense. I'd put Lambert and Blount at 2-3 in some order. I think Bradshaw and Franco have to be 4-5 in some order. After that it's wide open. If Ben wins his 3rd SB he's a legit top 5 Steeler, maybe ahead of Bradshaw. I don't think there's much debate that Ben will go down as the best Steelers QB of all-time. My 6-10 would include: Ben, Hines, Polamalu, Ham and Woodson.11-15: Bettis, Stallworth, Swann, tie Dirt Dawson/Mike Webster
Wow, no respect for Webster here. And you really wouldn't have Stautner in your top 15?
No disrespect to Stautner and I never saw him play but unfortunately the Steelers were awful until Chuck Noll came along. I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of HOFs with multiple SB rings. Stautner was a 6 foot 220 pound D-O/lineman, roughly the same size as Ham or Lambert. Love Webster but it's hard to put any center in the top 10 Steelers and I'm not sure he was better than Dawson.
 
I wouldn't put any active players on the list. Still too much of an open book for those guys.
I think Troy already belongs there.I think if Ben plays well in 2 weeks and they win another SB, he's certainly in the mix.Ward should be in the discussion.Harrison is moving up the list, but not top 10 yet.
 
Mean Kevin Joe L.C. GreenWoodson

Chuck Cowerlin

Jack Hambert

The Roonies

Franco "Frenchy" Harris

Rod Polamaluson

Lynn "the Warden" Stallworth

Jerome "Rocky" Bleierettis

Ernie Dawson Webster

Big Ben Bradshawburger

O.K. I think I fit them in.

 
Mean Kevin Joe L.C. GreenWoodson

Chuck Cowerlin

Jack Hambert

The Roonies

Franco "Frenchy" Harris

Rod Polamaluson

Lynn "the Warden" Stallworth

Jerome "Rocky" Bleierettis

Ernie Dawson Webster

Big Ben Bradshawburger

O.K. I think I fit them in.
I think this needs to be Mel Woodsalamu.
 
I was very surprised to see Woodson at 4. Great player, maybe the best athlete ever to play for the Steelers but not a top-5 Steeler of all-time. Mean Joe has to be number one, he was the top player on the best defense of all-time. There is some debate from 2-5 but I agree with the posters that slant 2/3 towards defense. I'd put Lambert and Blount at 2-3 in some order. I think Bradshaw and Franco have to be 4-5 in some order. After that it's wide open. If Ben wins his 3rd SB he's a legit top 5 Steeler, maybe ahead of Bradshaw. I don't think there's much debate that Ben will go down as the best Steelers QB of all-time. My 6-10 would include: Ben, Hines, Polamalu, Ham and Woodson.11-15: Bettis, Stallworth, Swann, tie Dirt Dawson/Mike Webster
Wow, no respect for Webster here. And you really wouldn't have Stautner in your top 15?
No disrespect to Stautner and I never saw him play but unfortunately the Steelers were awful until Chuck Noll came along. I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of HOFs with multiple SB rings. Stautner was a 6 foot 220 pound D-O/lineman, roughly the same size as Ham or Lambert. Love Webster but it's hard to put any center in the top 10 Steelers and I'm not sure he was better than Dawson.
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.As for Stautner, he made 9 Pro Bowls and made 1st or 2nd team All NFL 9 times in 14 years. He retired as the career leader in safeties with 3 and ranked third in fumble recoveries with 23. He made the 1950s All Decade team, and was inducted in the HOF in his first year of eligibility. He is also the only player to ever have his number officially retired, though I think that is because they stopped that practice.Not sure how many here are familiar with the Approximate Value metric at pro-football-reference, but here is a list of all Steelers with career Weighted AV scores of 100+:9. Woodson (142)27. Greene (127)T43. Ham (119)T56. Lambert (114)T61. Stautner (112)T62. Blount (111)T89. Bradshaw (106)T108. Webster (103)T118. Harris (102)Obviously, you can debate the method used for Weighted AV, and I would not suggest that it is the right way to measure and rank players. Also, it is cumulative, which is why players like Roethlisberger and Polamalu don't show up. Regardless, it's an objective measure that shows that Stautner and Webster were really valuable. (Also, while I have all 9 of these players on my list, I did not look at the AV scores until writing this post.)
 
Bradshaw is ranked too high. This is the Steelers we are talking about. I would get the W.R.'s off of the list and move in L.B.s, maybe Roethlisberger, and a chin with some spittle. Also, maybe a beard to represent all of the great Steeler bearded players over the years.Pittsburgh is Defense. At least in my mind.
Bradshaw is too high. A career 51% passer with 212 TDs and 210 INTs.
 
Bradshaw is ranked too high. This is the Steelers we are talking about. I would get the W.R.'s off of the list and move in L.B.s, maybe Roethlisberger, and a chin with some spittle. Also, maybe a beard to represent all of the great Steeler bearded players over the years.Pittsburgh is Defense. At least in my mind.
Bradshaw is too high. A career 51% passer with 212 TDs and 210 INTs.
and 4 lombardis
 
I was very surprised to see Woodson at 4. Great player, maybe the best athlete ever to play for the Steelers but not a top-5 Steeler of all-time. Mean Joe has to be number one, he was the top player on the best defense of all-time. There is some debate from 2-5 but I agree with the posters that slant 2/3 towards defense. I'd put Lambert and Blount at 2-3 in some order. I think Bradshaw and Franco have to be 4-5 in some order. After that it's wide open. If Ben wins his 3rd SB he's a legit top 5 Steeler, maybe ahead of Bradshaw. I don't think there's much debate that Ben will go down as the best Steelers QB of all-time.

My 6-10 would include: Ben, Hines, Polamalu, Ham and Woodson.

11-15: Bettis, Stallworth, Swann, tie Dirt Dawson/Mike Webster
Wow, no respect for Webster here. And you really wouldn't have Stautner in your top 15?
No disrespect to Stautner and I never saw him play but unfortunately the Steelers were awful until Chuck Noll came along. I'd have a hard time putting him ahead of HOFs with multiple SB rings. Stautner was a 6 foot 220 pound D-O/lineman, roughly the same size as Ham or Lambert. Love Webster but it's hard to put any center in the top 10 Steelers and I'm not sure he was better than Dawson.
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.
It's an interesting debate but I think you're selling Hines short. He's been the face of the team for most of the past decade. He's 8th all-time in receptions. He'll likely finish 2nd in career postseason receptions, he owns a Super Bowl MVP and has all the intangibles Webster had (toughness, durability, leadership). Again no knock against Webster but many believe he's not even the Steelers best center ever.
Steelers: Saturday is judgment day for Dermontti Dawson

Voting him in should be a snap

Sunday, January 31, 2010

By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Chuck Noll, an old guard in his playing days with the Cleveland Browns, drafted one in 1988 in the second round from Kentucky. In the next round, he drafted a center from Notre Dame.

He and the Steelers believed they had just acquired two-thirds of their interior offensive line for the next decade. They were wrong, half wrong anyway. They found their center and missed badly on the other guy, but not the way they had planned.

Chuck Lanza, the center from Notre Dame, washed out quickly. Dermontti Dawson, the guard from Kentucky, moved to center one year later and not only succeeded Hall of Famer Mike Webster to continue the team's grand tradition at the position, but many believe he exceeded Webster's play over the next decade.

Dawson, among the finalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2010 that will be chosen Saturday in Miami, set a new standard for centers throughout the National Football League. Before Dawson, the center position featured men of strength to take on defensive tackles and nose tackles, and smart players who could call the pass protections and adjust blocking schemes for the entire line.

Dawson did that and more. He revolutionized the position because he also had such athletic ability, quickness and speed that he often led sweeps around end, blocked men not just in front of him but to his right, and rarely needed a double-team to block a defensive lineman as most centers did.

There are some who will say he was the greatest center who ever played in the NFL.

"I don't know if he was the first center to snap the football and lead on the sweep, but I've never seen a center do it as good," said Hall of Fame cornerback Rod Woodson. "The guy was a tremendous athlete, the strongest and probably most athletic offensive lineman I've ever seen."

**** LeBeau has been in the game for 51 years and agrees with Woodson.

"He's the first guy I ever saw as a center pull and lead sweeps," said LeBeau, who coached against Dawson and with him. "And they would lead Dermontti on what we called the 'plus nose tackle,' the guy who sat outside his shoulder with the play going to that side. His blocking assignment was to cut that guy out of that onside gap, almost impossible. But Dermontti could do it because of his quickness. You just don't see that very often."

Dawson not only made seven Pro Bowls before hamstring injuries forced him into retirement after the 2000 season, he was chosen first-team All-Pro six times as the best center in the NFL. He earned the first-team nod at center on the NFL's Team of the Decade for the 1990s. He also was chosen as the NFL's offensive lineman of the year in 1993 and '96 by two organizations and he played in 170 consecutive games.

Those Steelers teams of the 1990s did not dominate the league running the ball just because they wanted to do it.

"To me he was the best athlete to ever play that position," said former Steelers coach Bill Cowher. "He was very powerful and explosive, just a rare combination of quickness, explosion, and he was a very dependable player. This guy hardly ever missed a game.

"He redefined the position. Looking schematically, when you start to design the center to pull after the snap, not many can do it. When you look at the numbers we had in the running game, everything we did worked from the inside out, and to have a guy like Dermontti and such stability, that was a staple of every offense we had."

Cowher might be considered biased on the topic of Dawson, Bill Belichick cannot.

"He was one of the best players that we have ever played against at that position," said Belichick, who played the Steelers twice annually when he coached the Browns in the 1990s. "He had exceptional quickness.

"I think that really is the measure of a center is his ability to play against powerful guys that are lined up over him and try to bull-rush the pocket and collapse it in the middle so that the quarterback can't step up. Dawson had great leverage and quickness with his hands and his feet where he did a great job of keeping that pocket clean for [Neil] O'Donnell and those guys who played behind him.

"The other thing that I think was a key to the Pittsburgh running game for years is when the nose tackle or the defensive tackle is offset to the play side; if you are running to the right and the nose tackle is lined up in the center-guard gap on the right, or sometimes even on the inside shoulder of the guard; that is a very hard block for the center to get. Defensively, you feel like they should not be able to cut him off from the center position, but Dawson made that block consistently."That is precisely what LeBeau said. Belichick continued his praise of Dawson.

"Without him making those blocks inside, a lot of those runs for [Jerome] Bettis and [barry] Foster would not have been able to get downhill like they did. As great as those Steelers' running games were over the last decade-and-a-half that I played against them, the effectiveness of the center position has had a lot to do with that. Dawson was outstanding; as well as his protection in the passing game."

Webster and Miami's Dwight Stephenson were considered two very different styles of centers. Webster had the strength, Stephenson the quickness. Both are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Stephenson played from 1980 to 1987, made six Pro Bowls, five All-Pro teams and was the center on the all-1980s decade team.

"People referred to Dwight as the No. 1 guy but I think Dermontti was every bit his equal in all phases of the game," LeBeau said. "He played ahead of Dermontti, year-wise, but still I think Dermontti was the guy who popularized the pulling center. Dwight did a little bit but Dermontti did it a lot."

Tunch Ilkin, a two-time Pro Bowl right tackle, played on the offensive line with Webster and then with Dawson, and played throughout Stephenson's era.

"In my day, we always argued with guys around the league who was better, Webby or Dwight Stephenson," Ilkin said. "Everyone who picked Dwight picked him because of his athleticism. Those who pick Webby picked him because of his strength, toughness and power.

"If you put them both together, you've got Dermontti Dawson."For more on the Steelers, read the new blog, Ed Bouchette On the Steelers at www.post-gazette.com/plus. Ed Bouchette can be reached at ebouchette@post-gazette.com.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10031/10323...m#ixzz1C58LcVoC
 
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.
It's an interesting debate but I think you're selling Hines short. He's been the face of the team for most of the past decade. He's 8th all-time in receptions. He'll likely finish 2nd in career postseason receptions, he owns a Super Bowl MVP and has all the intangibles Webster had (toughness, durability, leadership).
I could not disagree more with this. I can only assume it is the recency effect, with Ward still playing and Webster retired for 20 years. But it's really not close.First off, I disagree that Ward has been the face of the team for most of the past decade. IMO Bettis and Roethlisberger and Polamalu have been the faces of the team moreso than Ward. Certainly, Ward is not a Peyton Manning like guy where you always thought of him first when you think of the Steelers during his playing career.

But that's really not what is important here. The crux of the matter is this: Webster is viewed by everyone to be one of the few best of all time at his position, possibly *the* best of all time. Ward is not viewed by anyone other than possibly Steelers fans as one of the few best WRs of all time.

This point is backed by the honors each of them has received. Ward doesn't come close to Webster there. His Super Bowl MVP and 4 Pro Bowls do not come close to comparing to Webster's 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowls, two All Decade team selections, and NFL 75th Anniversary team selection.

It is also arguable that a dominant center is more valuable than a dominant WR.

I respect Ward a lot. There is no slight in not ranking in the top 10 Steelers of all time. Look at the names on the list. I'm sorry, he just doesn't merit being up there. IMO he would be in the next 5.

 
no knock against Webster but many believe he's not even the Steelers best center ever.
It's hard for me to use an article like the one you posted to draw any conclusions about whether or not Dawson was better than Webster. Most of those quoted in the article had a bias from playing with or coaching Dawson. The guard quoted played with Dawson in his prime, but played with Webster at the end of his career. I'd imagine that if the writer of that article polled teammates and opponents from Webster's prime, you'd get just as many superlative quotes about him.The only thing the article really highlights is how athletic Dawson was, and that he was perhaps the most athletic center to ever play. But does that make him the best? Does that make his career the best?They have comparable honors and awards, but Webster made a strong contribution to multiple Super Bowl championships. That's a huge factor that does not work in Dawson's favor.Bottom line, if the general belief is that Dawson is the best ever, why has he been waiting for 5 years to get in? I think he deserves it, and I would vote him in this year. But his wait doesn't seem to support your viewpoint.
 
They have comparable honors and awards, but Webster made a strong contribution to multiple Super Bowl championships. That's a huge factor that does not work in Dawson's favor.Bottom line, if the general belief is that Dawson is the best ever, why has he been waiting for 5 years to get in? I think he deserves it, and I would vote him in this year. But his wait doesn't seem to support your viewpoint.
Not really fair to compare SB titles is it? I can see doing it for a QB, but for a center? How many rings does Dwight Stevenson have? With regard to your question, let's face it: linemen on either side of the ball don't get the recognition in the Hall that quarterbacks, running backs, and wide receivers are going to get. Centers, guards, and noseguards are the "invisible" players in the NFL; coaches understand their value, but they're not sexy to the public.
 
They have comparable honors and awards, but Webster made a strong contribution to multiple Super Bowl championships. That's a huge factor that does not work in Dawson's favor.Bottom line, if the general belief is that Dawson is the best ever, why has he been waiting for 5 years to get in? I think he deserves it, and I would vote him in this year. But his wait doesn't seem to support your viewpoint.
Not really fair to compare SB titles is it? I can see doing it for a QB, but for a center?
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Here we have two of the very best centers of all time, arguably the top two. And we are comparing them. And it's very close... we're splitting hairs. Are you really saying that in that scenario, in judging which one had the better career, we should not give extra credit to the one who started on three Super Bowl champions over the other guy who did not play on a Super Bowl winner? Really?
How many rings does Dwight Stevenson have?
How many does Marino have? Not sure what point you are trying to make here.
With regard to your question, let's face it: linemen on either side of the ball don't get the recognition in the Hall that quarterbacks, running backs, and wide receivers are going to get. Centers, guards, and noseguards are the "invisible" players in the NFL; coaches understand their value, but they're not sexy to the public.
I guess you are addressing my point that Dawson has had to wait and saying it is because he is a center. But this is not always the case. Jim Otto and Jim Langer are modern era centers who were inducted in their first year of eligibility. Mel Hein is a pre modern era center who made it in the first HOF class, although it is true it was a very big class compared to today. Webster made it in his second year of eligibility.This doesn't hold for the other OL positions either. Who is the best guard of all time, Hannah? He made it in his first year. Who is the best tackle of all time, Munoz? He made it in his first year.My point on this is if someone is going to claim Dawson is the best center in NFL history, I'd expect him to be in already. :shrug:
 
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Bradshaw is ranked too high. This is the Steelers we are talking about. I would get the W.R.'s off of the list and move in L.B.s, maybe Roethlisberger, and a chin with some spittle. Also, maybe a beard to represent all of the great Steeler bearded players over the years.Pittsburgh is Defense. At least in my mind.
Bradshaw is too high. A career 51% passer with 212 TDs and 210 INTs.
This is always the FIRST thing mentioned with Bradshaw in many cases...alot of things factor in this, like you were actually allowed to kill QB's back then, Bradshaw is still one of the toughest QB's to play the game, ever, that's a fact, dude played with a cast on his arm at one point, and called his own plays while winning 4 Super Bowls, if that's not impressive than you don't know the NFL that well...he should be mentioned with any of the great ones, he earned it...
 
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.
It's an interesting debate but I think you're selling Hines short. He's been the face of the team for most of the past decade. He's 8th all-time in receptions. He'll likely finish 2nd in career postseason receptions, he owns a Super Bowl MVP and has all the intangibles Webster had (toughness, durability, leadership).
I could not disagree more with this. I can only assume it is the recency effect, with Ward still playing and Webster retired for 20 years. But it's really not close.First off, I disagree that Ward has been the face of the team for most of the past decade. IMO Bettis and Roethlisberger and Polamalu have been the faces of the team moreso than Ward. Certainly, Ward is not a Peyton Manning like guy where you always thought of him first when you think of the Steelers during his playing career.

But that's really not what is important here. The crux of the matter is this: Webster is viewed by everyone to be one of the few best of all time at his position, possibly *the* best of all time. Ward is not viewed by anyone other than possibly Steelers fans as one of the few best WRs of all time.

This point is backed by the honors each of them has received. Ward doesn't come close to Webster there. His Super Bowl MVP and 4 Pro Bowls do not come close to comparing to Webster's 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowls, two All Decade team selections, and NFL 75th Anniversary team selection.

It is also arguable that a dominant center is more valuable than a dominant WR.

I respect Ward a lot. There is no slight in not ranking in the top 10 Steelers of all time. Look at the names on the list. I'm sorry, he just doesn't merit being up there. IMO he would be in the next 5.
I'm not sure if Ward is one of the best 10 Steelers ever, but he's been one of the best 5 or so WRs in his conference at least four times that I can remember.
 
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.
It's an interesting debate but I think you're selling Hines short. He's been the face of the team for most of the past decade. He's 8th all-time in receptions. He'll likely finish 2nd in career postseason receptions, he owns a Super Bowl MVP and has all the intangibles Webster had (toughness, durability, leadership).
I could not disagree more with this. I can only assume it is the recency effect, with Ward still playing and Webster retired for 20 years. But it's really not close.First off, I disagree that Ward has been the face of the team for most of the past decade. IMO Bettis and Roethlisberger and Polamalu have been the faces of the team moreso than Ward. Certainly, Ward is not a Peyton Manning like guy where you always thought of him first when you think of the Steelers during his playing career.

But that's really not what is important here. The crux of the matter is this: Webster is viewed by everyone to be one of the few best of all time at his position, possibly *the* best of all time. Ward is not viewed by anyone other than possibly Steelers fans as one of the few best WRs of all time.

This point is backed by the honors each of them has received. Ward doesn't come close to Webster there. His Super Bowl MVP and 4 Pro Bowls do not come close to comparing to Webster's 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowls, two All Decade team selections, and NFL 75th Anniversary team selection.

It is also arguable that a dominant center is more valuable than a dominant WR.

I respect Ward a lot. There is no slight in not ranking in the top 10 Steelers of all time. Look at the names on the list. I'm sorry, he just doesn't merit being up there. IMO he would be in the next 5.
I'm not sure if Ward is one of the best 10 Steelers ever, but he's been one of the best 5 or so WRs in his conference at least four times that I can remember.
Exactly. A top 5 AFC WR 4 times... not comparable. :thumbup:
 
1. Mean Joe Greene

2. Terry Bradshaw

3. Franco Harris

4. Rod Woodson

5. Jack Lambert

6. Mel Blount

7. Troy Polamalu

8. Hines Ward

9. Lynn Swann

10. Jerome Bettis

Notables they left out(which I would consider): Ben Roethlisberger, Jack Ham, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Greg Lloyd, Kevin Greene, Andy Russell, James Harrison, Ernie Stautner

Very surprised that Rod Woodson went so high. His best years as a Steeler were from 90-94; he got injured in 95 and never fully recovered until he left the team. He also is the only one on the top 10 who doesn't have a ring (as a Steeler.). I also don't think, that for all his flashiness, Lynn Swann was a better receiver than Stallworth. But I actually would likely have left them both off and placed Big Ben in the top 10 somewhere.

I don't think Joe Greene is the most talented player the Steelers ever had, but I can understand putting him #1 because he was the face of the franchise during the years of its greatest success.

Thoughts?
Lambert actually was the "face" of the Steel Curtain back then, he got all the press and headlines while Mean Joe was grinding it out getting double teamed all day and freeing up everyone else, even then Greene was still making huge plays no matter how many guys they had in front of him, still one of the best all time players for any team. I've been a Steeler fan since the early 70's and Greene was and still is the greatest Steeler player of all time from what I've seen in my lifetime. There is just never enough said about what he used to do in the trenches, both within the rules and outside of them if he had to...he didn't get his nickname for nothing, one of the baddest dudes to ever play in the NFL.
 
Just Win Baby said:
Frenchy Fuqua said:
Wow. Very surprising to me about Webster. He was 1st team All Pro 5 times. He started 150 straight games at center for the Steelers during a span that definitely included the last two Super Bowl wins in the 1970s, and I think he also started for their second Super Bowl win, but I'm not sure where to find that info. He was one of two centers on the NFL's 75th Anniversary team (with Mel Hein), and the only Steeler to make that team on offense. He made both the 1970s and 1980s All Decade teams. To me, he is a nobrainer. It's really hard for me to believe, for example, that anyone would rank Hines Ward higher than Webster. IMO that is crazy talk.
It's an interesting debate but I think you're selling Hines short. He's been the face of the team for most of the past decade. He's 8th all-time in receptions. He'll likely finish 2nd in career postseason receptions, he owns a Super Bowl MVP and has all the intangibles Webster had (toughness, durability, leadership).
I could not disagree more with this. I can only assume it is the recency effect, with Ward still playing and Webster retired for 20 years. But it's really not close.First off, I disagree that Ward has been the face of the team for most of the past decade. IMO Bettis and Roethlisberger and Polamalu have been the faces of the team moreso than Ward. Certainly, Ward is not a Peyton Manning like guy where you always thought of him first when you think of the Steelers during his playing career.

But that's really not what is important here. The crux of the matter is this: Webster is viewed by everyone to be one of the few best of all time at his position, possibly *the* best of all time. Ward is not viewed by anyone other than possibly Steelers fans as one of the few best WRs of all time.

This point is backed by the honors each of them has received. Ward doesn't come close to Webster there. His Super Bowl MVP and 4 Pro Bowls do not come close to comparing to Webster's 5 1st Team All Pro selections, 9 Pro Bowls, two All Decade team selections, and NFL 75th Anniversary team selection.

It is also arguable that a dominant center is more valuable than a dominant WR.

I respect Ward a lot. There is no slight in not ranking in the top 10 Steelers of all time. Look at the names on the list. I'm sorry, he just doesn't merit being up there. IMO he would be in the next 5.
Really not close? Ward holds ever major Steelers receiving record in the regular and postseason (ahead of two HOFers) and ranks among the all-time NFL leaders in numerous categories. He also has a Super Bowl MVP. This is a list of all-time Steelers not who's the best at their position in NFL history. Webster was a HOF player and an all-time great center but I don't believe his impact was equal to that of Hines Ward. The NFL Network had Ward ahead of Webster so I'm not exactly on a limb here.
 
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Just Win Baby said:
Frenchy Fuqua said:
no knock against Webster but many believe he's not even the Steelers best center ever.
It's hard for me to use an article like the one you posted to draw any conclusions about whether or not Dawson was better than Webster. Most of those quoted in the article had a bias from playing with or coaching Dawson. The guard quoted played with Dawson in his prime, but played with Webster at the end of his career. I'd imagine that if the writer of that article polled teammates and opponents from Webster's prime, you'd get just as many superlative quotes about him.The only thing the article really highlights is how athletic Dawson was, and that he was perhaps the most athletic center to ever play. But does that make him the best? Does that make his career the best?

They have comparable honors and awards, but Webster made a strong contribution to multiple Super Bowl championships. That's a huge factor that does not work in Dawson's favor.

Bottom line, if the general belief is that Dawson is the best ever, why has he been waiting for 5 years to get in? I think he deserves it, and I would vote him in this year. But his wait doesn't seem to support your viewpoint.
Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but I think it's illogical to site the importance of synthetic AV scores at one point in this thread and later question the opinions of reputable contemporaries that played, coached or covered the players. Chase Stuart had an interesting piece on AV Scores, centers and Dirt Dawson. Here's a clip.

Dawson's career AV grade is 83, which probably underrates how good he was. Dawson rarely played on good offenses, which tends to cap how much AV a player can earn. Twenty-nine of the 39 first-team All-Pro centers named by the Associated Press since the merger played on teams that finished in the top in the league in scoring. Dawson was the center named in four of those other ten occasions, and he played on by far the worst scoring team ('98 Steelers) of any AP first-team All-Pro center. While one could argue that the Steelers lack of offensive success is evidence that Dawson was overrated and was earning his accolades based on reputation, I think the more likely argument is that Dawson's AV score is underrated because he was snapping to Kordell Stewart and Mike Tomczak.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5273
 
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