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Official Donald Trump for President thread (4 Viewers)

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Loan Sharks said:
Unless you are a moderate Republican who wants Trump to reject he foolish conservative principles of anti homosexuality, anti abortion and religious whackos. 
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Oh bull####. It's not that conservatives has stopped caring about the issues you mentioned. It's that they care about illegal immigration, Islam, and white nationalism more. Trump is a hardliner on those issues and that's all that's important. 

 
timschochet said:
Oh bull####. It's not that conservatives has stopped caring about the issues you mentioned. It's that they care about illegal immigration, Islam, and white nationalism more. Trump is a hardliner on those issues and that's all that's important.
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Meh, I truly think Trump supporters are tired of being duped into voting against their own interests based primarily on religious based wedge issues that just aren't important to them anymore. Maybe that's not true for your average Trump supporter (he did court a fair number of Evangelicals) but I sure get that feeling from Trump supporters on this board.

 
SameSongNDance said:
Meh, I truly think Trump supporters are tired of being duped into voting against their own interests based primarily on religious based wedge issues that just aren't important to them anymore. Maybe that's not true for your average Trump supporter (he did court a fair number of Evangelicals) but I sure get that feeling from Trump supporters on this board.
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This is (potentially) the real shift in American politics, and why (I think) that so many GOP elders are disavowing Trump.   

 
timschochet said:
Oh bull####. It's not that conservatives has stopped caring about the issues you mentioned. It's that they care about illegal immigration, Islam, and white nationalism more. Trump is a hardliner on those issues and that's all that's important. 
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People focus on Hillary's scandals because she doesn't give us anything else to talk about.

One reason excitement about Fiorina fizzled out so quickly was she always talked about the problems and not the solutions.  Voters already know all about the problems and they want to support someone who have ideas on how to fix them.

 
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Loan Sharks said:
Unless you are a moderate Republican who wants Trump to reject he foolish conservative principles of anti homosexuality, anti abortion and religious whackos. 
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My comment had nothing to do with what Trump said or his reasons for saying it. He needs to get more voters, not alienate more voters. His comment is sure to alienate conservatives and he simply cannot afford to lose any votes. I don't see how he adds new voters with his comments. Seems like a net loss to me. 

 
I think you guys are missing the point of the Trump candidacy.

He's following the Jesse Ventura model of victory.  In that model, his policy positions are irrelevant.  Ventura won by establishing himself as a "man's man" and driving young adult males to the voting booth in record numbers to vote for him.  Everything Trump does is calculated to achieve that goal, from being tough on illegal immigration to parading around with beautiful women at his side.  If you are some middle aged guy that worries over policies details, he really isn't targetting you. 

You can read an overview of how Ventura won here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces98/stories/ventura110498.htm

There's more info here:

http://www.polmeth.wustl.edu/files/polmeth/lacy00b.pdf

Ventura was being crushed in the polls until mid-October.  He went from 10% in the polls to victory in about 3 weeks.  If Trump is modelling his campaign after Ventura's victory ( and I believe he is) , being down 7%-10% in May shouldn't faze him at all.

 
Two big problems for trump if that is truly his strategy - and at this point it seems clear that broadening his base isn't exactly at the top of his list of priorities, so you may be onto something with that Ventura thing -

1) the demographics of Minnesota in 1998 (white= 90%) are not representative of the US in 2016 (closer to 60%)

2) the electoral college means that states with concentrations of non-white populations can disproportionately represent those populations vs. what their overall percentage would otherwise indicate

 
Ventura was in a three-candidate race.  He won with something like 37% of the vote.  You can do that with mostly young white male voters in Minnesota.

Trump needs to get roughly 50%, unless there's some third-party candidate that takes votes from Hillary.  Trump needs to appeal to a broader slice of the electorate than Ventura did.

 
timschochet said:
It isn't. What YOU don't seem to understand is that Trump supporters are a minority of the public, and that this will be proven in November. Yes the paradigm has shifted for you and other Republican voters who chose this guy as your standard bearer, but in the bigger scheme of things you are going to be shown to be irrelevant. So enjoy the next few months, Cinderella,  because midnight is approaching. 
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You all said this during the republican primaries. Yet here we are still talking Tump...In my 35 years of voting it hasn't mattered who is president...My life and standard of living remained just fine...So either way I don't care...But it would be great if Trump won just so I can watch your heads explode.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
You all said this during the republican primaries. Yet here we are still talking Tump...In my 35 years of voting it hasn't mattered who is president...My life and standard of living remained just fine...So either way I don't care...But it would be great if Trump won just so I can watch your heads explode.
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I bet it has mattered to the parents and wives of the 7600 servicemen who have been killed in battle since 2003.

 
If you are speaking from a city like NYC, DC, Chicago, or Boston.  Your town and the surrounding area is already voting Hillary.  Trump doesn't care about your vote.  That includes me in Northern Virginia, which is filled with high and mighty Democratic party glitterati that hide behind the veil of liberalism while using the working man Democrats around the country for their own personal gain. I was at a party with about 300 of them last month. At least the Republicans don't hide behind the veil.

You know who Trump does want to get out to vote... white males and Hillary bashing women in OH, PA, GA, and FL.  There are plenty of them, especially the latter.  Pretty much everyone in my family and extended family in areas all over the country is going to vote for Trump. They hate what Hillary represents.  More of the same.   And the funny thing is 80% of them are Democrats.  I am the moderate Republican kind of squirming because Trump is bonkers at times.  But in the end he'll get my vote.

Biden really screwed the pooch.  He would have beaten Hillary easily.  He would have beaten Trump.  Poor decision.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
Republicans since 2009 down?
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Yeah who is supporting Trump again?

We had a wing of the GOP which was icing down Congress and threatening default if the debt ceiling was raised.

We have Goppers who cheered Trump when he promised he would eliminate the debt in 8 years.

We have Republicans who cheer Trump when he says he will default.

We have Republicans who cheer when Donald says don't worry we will just print more money.

These are all the same people? If so they are schizophrenic.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
Yeah who is supporting Trump again?

We had a wing of the GOP which was icing down Cobgress and threatening default.

We have Goppers who cheered Trump when he promised he would eliminate the debt in 8 years.

We have Republicans who cheer Trump when he says he will default.

We have Republicans who cheer when Donald says don't worry we will just print more money.

These are all the same people? If so they are schizophrenic.
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Trumpkins aren't really Republicans.  Nor are they conservatives.  He's running almost exclusively on angry white nativism, and that strikes a chord across both parties with the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.  Far more decent Republicans are horrified with this development than actually support it.  Clowns like Palin are going to jump on board, but the rest of the party is distancing themselves quickly.

 
cstu said:
I bet it has mattered to the parents and wives of the 7600 servicemen who have been killed in battle since 2003.
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I'm assuming that the parents and wives know that when their loved one signs up for military duty, that they may be required to defend our country in some form or fashion and with that comes risk...No different than when somebody chooses to be a police officer. Do you blame the president when a police officer gets killed?

 
Has there ever been a Presidential Nominee who as soon as they got the nod had party leaders coming out of the woodwork vowing to never vote for them like Trump has?

Serious question.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
I'm assuming that the parents and wives know that when their loved one signs up for military duty, that they may be required to defend our country in some form or fashion and with that comes risk.
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Some liberals just can't fathom this line of thinking. 

 
Riversco said:
I think you guys are missing the point of the Trump candidacy.

He's following the Jesse Ventura model of victory.  In that model, his policy positions are irrelevant.  Ventura won by establishing himself as a "man's man" and driving young adult males to the voting booth in record numbers to vote for him.  Everything Trump does is calculated to achieve that goal, from being tough on illegal immigration to parading around with beautiful women at his side.  If you are some middle aged guy that worries over policies details, he really isn't targetting you. 

You can read an overview of how Ventura won here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces98/stories/ventura110498.htm

There's more info here:

http://www.polmeth.wustl.edu/files/polmeth/lacy00b.pdf

Ventura was being crushed in the polls until mid-October.  He went from 10% in the polls to victory in about 3 weeks.  If Trump is modelling his campaign after Ventura's victory ( and I believe he is) , being down 7%-10% in May shouldn't faze him at all.
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There are certainly SOME similarities.

But Jesse, while quirky, did not run a negative campaign. He didn't attack Mexicans, or Muslims, or Hispanics. His rhetoric wasn't divisive. If it had been, I doubt he would have come close to winning.  

 
Skoo said:
Has there ever been a Presidential Nominee who as soon as they got the nod had party leaders coming out of the woodwork vowing to never vote for them like Trump has?

Serious question.
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1964.  George Romney (Mitt's dad) and Nelson Rockefeller both ran against Goldwater in the primaries and refused to endorse him in the general election - which came back to bite them in 1968 as conservatives never forgave them and thought they had cost Goldwater the election (which was laughable as he didn't stand a chance anyway). I am assuming there were other top Republicans who did that too, although Nixon was not among them and did endorse Goldwater (also did some token campaigning).

 
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Coeur de Lion said:
Trumpkins aren't really Republicans.  Nor are they conservatives.  He's running almost exclusively on angry white nativism, and that strikes a chord across both parties with the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.  Far more decent Republicans are horrified with this development than actually support it.  Clowns like Palin are going to jump on board, but the rest of the party is distancing themselves quickly.
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Life is looking pretty great where I'm sitting. You may want to try and not be so ####### wrong all the time guy. 

 
Skoo said:
Has there ever been a Presidential Nominee who as soon as they got the nod had party leaders coming out of the woodwork vowing to never vote for them like Trump has?

Serious question.
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I asked this question before, it might take a deep dive into electoral history. Taft vs Teddy R are probably the last two to have this kind of split but Taft was an old respected name and both had been presidents. William Bryant for the Dems in the late 1800s maybe?

Goldwater 64? McGovern 72? At least those guys were Senators.

I think Huey Long had this potential for Dems in 1936 but of course he never got there.

 
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squistion said:
1964.  George Romney (Mitt's dad) and Nelson Rockefeller both ran against Goldwater in the primaries and refused to endorse him for the general election - and it came back to bite them in 1968 as conservatives never forgave and thought they had cost Goldwater the election (which was laughable as he didn't stand a chance anyway). I am assuming there were other top Republicans who did that to, although Nixon did endorse Goldwater (and did some token campaigning).
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Republican anti-Goldwater ad sounds a lot like their attitude towards Trump today.

 
squistion said:
1964.  George Romney (Mitt's dad) and Nelson Rockefeller both ran against Goldwater in the primaries and refused to endorse him in the general election - which came back to bite them in 1968 as conservatives never forgave and thought they had cost Goldwater the election (which was laughable as he didn't stand a chance anyway). I am assuming there were other top Republicans who did that too, although Nixon was not among them did endorse Goldwater (and also did some token campaigning).
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Ironically it was that rejection of Rockefeller in 68 which drove Hillary from the GOP. She was a Rockefeller Republican, she might still be.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Ironically it was that rejection of Rockefeller in 68 which drove Hillary from the GOP. She was a Rockefeller Republican, she might still be.
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Except for the fact that there aren't any Rockefeller Republicans in today's GOP. The moderate or liberal wing that Rockefeller and George Romney represented is extinct. Hillary would have left the party eventually anyway, and perhaps Rockefeller's rejection may have hastened that, but it still would have happened.

 
squistion said:
Except for the fact that there aren't any Rockefeller Republicans in today's GOP. The moderate or liberal wing that Rockefeller and George Romney represented is extinct. Hillary would have left the party eventually anyway, and perhaps Rockefeller's rejection may have hastened that, but it still would have happened.
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I'm not disagreeing. It's arguable this 64-68 process continued into the 80s and even 90s. In the 50s the professional truly moderate professional and financial class was largely Republican, I think now it's largely Democratic. This little seismic shift if not temporary may be a continuation of the process.

 
timschochet said:
There are certainly SOME similarities.

But Jesse, while quirky, did not run a negative campaign. He didn't attack Mexicans, or Muslims, or Hispanics. His rhetoric wasn't divisive. If it had been, I doubt he would have come close to winning.  
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Ventura was a way ahead of the country on a lot of issues.  He was a little too fiscally conservative but overall I supported his ideas.  In fact, they still look good:

On March 3, 2016 Ventura released a shortlist of preliminary campaign platforms if he were to run for president. Included were rebuilding infrastructure, focusing on alternative energy, ending all foreign wars and following the teachings of Major General Smedley Butler, ending the war on drugs and reforming campaign financing.[85]
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I was watching the Jackie Robinson documentary the other night and his widow said it was Goldwater that drove him out. IIRC same thing happened with King.

What is the political capital or goodwill lost in terms of total votes and influence lost in those two. Put King, Robinson, Douglass, Tubman and Lincoln on a screen altogether side by side as Republican heritage and where would they be today? But no pffffft squandered that away like a pensioner at the casino on a Saturday night.

 
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cstu said:
People in the military are owed a just cause to fight for.
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I think it would help these arguments pro or con if Trump had not lied to get out of military service, falsely raised money for the military to save his own rep and which he still hasn't mostly handed out, and also insulted our men and women in the armed services what 3-4 times along the way?

This is probably an example of how a normal policy debate can't get past Square 1 with Donald because regardless of anyone's view Donald is absolutely FOS on this.

 
 


Wayne Slater Verified account ‏@WayneSlater


Trump in 2008: Clinton sex scandal 'unimportant'. Trumpsters understand the game: everybody - even our guys - lie.
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http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/12/29/donald-trump-bill-clinton-lewinsky-unimportant.cnn

- I think in the big boy Trump thread there is a discussion about what an awful person Bill is, but what difference does it make if the other guy has said before that Bill's and Hillary's records with women is just a big fat so-what?
 
elbowrm said:
Two big problems for trump if that is truly his strategy - and at this point it seems clear that broadening his base isn't exactly at the top of his list of priorities, so you may be onto something with that Ventura thing -

1) the demographics of Minnesota in 1998 (white= 90%) are not representative of the US in 2016 (closer to 60%)

2) the electoral college means that states with concentrations of non-white populations can disproportionately represent those populations vs. what their overall percentage would otherwise indicate
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The 2nd party is kinda backwards - the electoral college actually overstates the strengh of smaller states - which by and large (though not exclusively) tend to have less diversity than larger states with big urban populations.

California has 55 electoral votes.  Wyoming has 3.  So Calfornia has 18.33333 times the electoral votes of Wyoming.

However California's population is 39.145 million vs 586,000 for Wyoming.  That is California has nearly 67 times many people. 

If you combine the 12 states (and DC) with 3 or 4 electoral votes and the smallest state with 5 ev and smallest state with 6 ev you have a total of 55 ev (same as Cali).

These places (Alaska, DC, Delaware, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, Wyoming, Hawaii, Idaho, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, West Virginia, Nevada) have a 2015 population combined of 17.775 million people.  Less than half the population of California but the same electoral vote pull.

Not disagreeing with the point that Trump's challenge is very different than Ventura's - it is.  Part of that is because he was running 3rd party and part of it was that he was able to grow the electorate in a way that is just unrealistic for a Presidential General Election (where turnout is generally highest).

-QG

 
Walking Boot said:
$200 per person, $25K per person, that's nothing.

Obama's costs way more. Hillary charges millions for speeches that no one is allowed to report on. Guy I work with just hosted Obama a few months back for 50K per person. Obama can't be bought, either, right? What's he raising money for again, he's not even campaigning?
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In which it is explained yet again that the guy who is anti-establishment is just another typical establishmentarian.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
It was a rather sad & weird performance on CNN today.
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I wake up some days and I realize the candidate I support is also supported by Sarah Palin and Sean Hannity.

And I want to jump off a cliff.

Is this how Israel supporters feel when Palin, Santorum, and Bush support Israel openly? Oof.

 
cstu said:
Ventura was a way ahead of the country on a lot of issues.  He was a little too fiscally conservative but overall I supported his ideas.  In fact, they still look good:
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His policies are the most sane of any candidate, but his conspiracy theories are the craziest.

Maybe we're the crazy ones?

 
Walking Boot said:
I've said all along that Trump and Obama are virtually indistinguishable. They're the same. And they'll govern the same. The only problem people have with Trump is they only like when people break the rules to help themselves. They hate when "the other side" plays by the same crooked rules.
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There are arguments for and against campaign finance reform, that's not the problem. The problem is Donald pretending to be different and claiming he's self financed and outside the system when he's from the actual bowels of it. It's crazy bizarre to hilarious to see him dive into piles of political money even as he claims he not accountable to anyone. It's nuts that anyone would believe it.

 
Walking Boot said:
I've said all along that Trump and Obama are virtually indistinguishable. They're the same. And they'll govern the same. The only problem people have with Trump is they only like when people break the rules to help themselves. They hate when "the other side" plays by the same crooked rules.
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:mellow:

 
AAAll-Stars said:
Is this gets Bernie to run, then I'm all for it.

If Bernie doesn't run, then Romney is the biggest sore loser on the face of this planet.

Dude loved Trump in 2012 and now thinks Trump is the worst. A total fraud.
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Romney running 3rd party would absolutely be sore loserdom. Running a no-name is pointless and running an old name just plays into everyone's mood against all that has passed before. Frankly they're in a jam. And really that's true for the GOP as a whole, oh yeah Trump was great when they needed him.

 
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