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Official Donald Trump for President thread (5 Viewers)

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Bruce Dickinson said:
But this charity scam... this one should have legs.  It can be explained in 140 characters or fewer, and very difficult to defend without also coming off as fundamentally flawed. 
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I hope so. But you would think that blatant bigotry would be easy to understand. You would think that threatening to withdraw from NATO would be easy to understand. You would think that misogyny, making fun of the handicapped and so many other awful things would be easy to understand. 

The public doesn't seem to care. This morning Trump leads Ohio by 5 points. There's a small part of me that wonders if his victory isn't inevitable. 

 
MattFancy said:
No medial results today on Dr. Oz.
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This dude has secret plans, no tax records and no medical records; the least transparent candidate in the history of the US and Trumpsters still believe Clinton is the one hiding stuff?  The cognitive dissonance of the Trumpettes is truly amazing. 

 
Here's a prediction: Trump wins. Trump voters get their 401 k's flushed when he tanks the economy and they blame Hillary for being a terrible candidate.

 
timschochet said:
I hope so. But you would think that blatant bigotry would be easy to understand. You would think that threatening to withdraw from NATO would be easy to understand. You would think that misogyny, making fun of the handicapped and so many other awful things would be easy to understand. 

The public doesn't seem to care. This morning Trump leads Ohio by 5 points. There's a small part of me that wonders if his victory isn't inevitable. 
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A lot of Ohio can be blamed on a few things.  Terrible Senate candidate against Portman (old failed Gov. Strickland with no new ideas), and backlash to the Deplorables and White Trash comments.  DNC dug their own hole.  

 
ericttspikes said:
Here's a prediction: Trump wins. Trump voters get their 401 k's flushed when he tanks the economy and they blame Hillary for being a terrible candidate.
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I already saw someone in the Hillary thread saying it was 100% the Democrat voters' fault if Trump gets elected President for nominating Hillary. 100%. 

 
timschochet said:
I hope so. But you would think that blatant bigotry would be easy to understand. You would think that threatening to withdraw from NATO would be easy to understand. You would think that misogyny, making fun of the handicapped and so many other awful things would be easy to understand. 

The public doesn't seem to care. This morning Trump leads Ohio by 5 points. There's a small part of me that wonders if his victory isn't inevitable. 
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You were the one talking me down from the ledge yesterday, so I'll do the same here- that stuff did matter.  If it didn't he wouldn't be trailing a very flawed candidate by 3-4 points on average.  Obviously it hasn't mattered nearly as much as it should, but it never will. No Trump supporters are going to abandon him even, as he said, if he shot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue. All that matters is hopefully winning over a few more undecided voters with every new story about how truly awful he is.

As for the poll- Trump doesn't lead Ohio by 5 points. One poll says he does.  Another poll three days ago had Clinton +7 there, and a third one four days ago had her +1.  And in any event Ohio doesn't matter. It's way past the 270 line.  If Clinton wins Ohio she's winning a landslide.  Trump has to win it to have any chance and then also has to pick off a number of other states with demographics not nearly as friendly to him.

He absolutely could win, I've always said that and definitely think that now.  Other than the improving economy, things are lined up ridiculously well for him right now. But this one poll is not cause for alarm IMO.  I seriously doubt you'd see Trump people freaking out about a poll showing Clinton +5 in Pennsylvania and that state is much more important than Ohio.

ETA:  Also remember that every poll that comes out today-Friday or so was taken at last partially over the last weekend, mostly after the Clinton fainting episode and the "deplorables" comment but before the Trump charity stuff, and the backlash on the deplorables comment where Trump people are now being asked whether some of their support really is deplorable (eg Pence on David Duke), and the reasonable explanations for Clinton's health. So it might get ugly for the next couple days.  But I'd say give it until a week or so from now before we start declaring Trump the frontrunner.

 
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“It’s very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it,”

-----

You know how we've been talking about noise and clutter?  When I read that quote I clearly remembered him saying it, but when I writing the post that prompted that callback it never came to mind.  He's made so many outrageous claims about all the unprecedented things he's done and will do, the pertinent one got lost in the shuffle.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
“It’s very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it,”

-----

You know how we've been talking about noise and clutter?  When I read that quote I clearly remembered him saying it, but when I writing the post that prompted that callback it never came to mind.  He's made so many outrageous claims about all the unprecedented things he's done and will do, the pertinent one got lost in the shuffle.
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FEC could certainly take a look too.

 
ericttspikes said:
This dude has secret plans, no tax records and no medical records; the least transparent candidate in the history of the US and Trumpsters still believe Clinton is the one hiding stuff?  The cognitive dissonance of the Trumpettes is truly amazing. 
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Indeed.

 
TobiasFunke said:
The fact that none of the Trump supporters in this forum will touch this with a ten foot pole is also a pretty good sign that it has legs. His behavior is that indefensible.

The problem is that it requires the more accessible (i.e.TV) media and the public to focus on it rather than being distracted by the ten insane things he and members of his campaign do every day. I have my doubts about the ability of either of them to do it.
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On Don Lemon last night, McEnany tried to go for the false equivalence by saying the Clinton Foundation also collects money from other people and gives it away, so what's the big deal?  When other panelists mentioned where the money goes, she then retreated to the transparency talking points.  

Agree with you about the problem of staying on message.  It's like the campaign is still operating from the Carville/Begala "rapid response" paradigm, and Trump is counter-countering by overwhelming the airwaves with noise.  (Whomever here compared the Trump campaign to a Denial Of Service attack... well said, and I probably owe you a Like.)  They need to get a surrogate or three out there speaking on the Trump Foundation scam at every spot and try to get it in every news cycle.    

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
On Don Lemon last night, McEnany tried to go for the false equivalence by saying the Clinton Foundation also collects money from other people and gives it away, so what's the big deal?  When other panelists mentioned where the money goes, she then retreated to the transparency talking points.  

Agree with you about the problem of staying on message.  It's like the campaign is still operating from the Carville/Begala "rapid response" paradigm, and Trump is counter-countering by overwhelming the airwaves with noise.  (Whomever here compared the Trump campaign to a Denial Of Service attack... well said, and I probably owe you a Like.)  They need to get a surrogate or three out there speaking on the Trump Foundation scam at every spot and try to get it in every news cycle.    
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This is fantastic, perfect analogy for what they do.

This is why the debates are so important and the moderator is such a topic of conversation.  Not only is that sort of thing harder to pull off when you're just one guy on a debate stage, it's also easier in that format for Clinton and hopefully the moderator to call out and fend off and force Trump to at least try to actually answer a tough question, or at least make it obvious that he's not doing so. Obviously the moderator would presumably do the same to Clinton but she's much more well-equipped to handle it and much less vulnerable.

 
TobiasFunke said:
This is fantastic, perfect analogy for what they do.

This is why the debates are so important and the moderator is such a topic of conversation.  Not only is that sort of thing harder to pull off when you're just one guy on a debate stage, it's also easier in that format for Clinton and hopefully the moderator to call out and fend off and force Trump to at least try to actually answer a tough question, or at least make it obvious that he's not doing so. Obviously the moderator would presumably do the same to Clinton but she's much more well-equipped to handle it and much less vulnerable.
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I'm hopeful the outrage over the media not holding Trump accountable will have an effect on the debates.  Trump went on CNBC earlier this week and demonstrated next-to-zero understanding of how monetary policy worked or how economic policy is put into motion, and the host just sat there and let him ramble.  (Trump also told a blatant lie about his finances, claiming not to be invested in the stock market when documentation shows he holds millions in stock, but that didn't even register.)  I almost wanted to apologize to Matt Lauer since he's hardly an isolated incident.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
On Don Lemon last night, McEnany tried to go for the false equivalence by saying the Clinton Foundation also collects money from other people and gives it away, so what's the big deal?  When other panelists mentioned where the money goes, she then retreated to the transparency talking points.  

Agree with you about the problem of staying on message.  It's like the campaign is still operating from the Carville/Begala "rapid response" paradigm, and Trump is counter-countering by overwhelming the airwaves with noise.  (Whomever here compared the Trump campaign to a Denial Of Service attack... well said, and I probably owe you a Like.)  They need to get a surrogate or three out there speaking on the Trump Foundation scam at every spot and try to get it in every news cycle.    
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:bye:

 
timschochet said:
The public doesn't seem to care. This morning Trump leads Ohio by 5 points. There's a small part of me that wonders if his victory isn't inevitable. 
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Can we please wait until after the debates before we hit the panic button? And even if Trump is leading Ohio by 5 right now (which, as TF pointed out, may not mean a whole lot) the chances are pretty good that with all of Clinton's opposition research there will be more things coming out about Trump that ARE going to register with the public.

 
One thing I like about Donald is that he's scandal proof. Not that he doesn't have scandals, heck he has at least a dozen going back to the 80's, but he just has so many of them that none of them individually matter. 

 
Time magazine is writing about Trump not releasing his medical records when he appears on the Dr. Oz show.  

Uggh.  We're all getting dumber.  

 
honky kong said:
Can we please wait until after the debates before we hit the panic button? And even if Trump is leading Ohio by 5 right now (which, as TF pointed out, may not mean a whole lot) the chances are pretty good that with all of Clinton's opposition research there will be more things coming out about Trump that ARE going to register with the public.
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You're right. Tobias is right. Like everybody else who wants Trump to lose, I swing back and forth from confidence to dismay. That Bloomberg poll hit me hard this morning. What the #### is wrong with people? I can rationally make sense of Trump fans on paper, even argue on their behalf. But deep down I don't get it. No matter what anybody thinks of Hillary Clinton, how can you possibly vote for Donald ####### Trump???

 
timschochet said:
You're right. Tobias is right. Like everybody else who wants Trump to lose, I swing back and forth from confidence to dismay. That Bloomberg poll hit me hard this morning. What the #### is wrong with people? I can rationally make sense of Trump fans on paper, even argue on their behalf. But deep down I don't get it. No matter what anybody thinks of Hillary Clinton, how can you possibly vote for Donald ####### Trump???
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:lmao:

 
timschochet said:
You're right. Tobias is right. Like everybody else who wants Trump to lose, I swing back and forth from confidence to dismay. That Bloomberg poll hit me hard this morning. What the #### is wrong with people? I can rationally make sense of Trump fans on paper, even argue on their behalf. But deep down I don't get it. No matter what anybody thinks of Hillary Clinton, how can you possibly vote for Donald ####### Trump???
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Welcome to my world 4 years ago. How could anyone vote for Obama against Romney if they actually looked at the candidates. Mind boggling. The non freebie voters  only looked at the D and fell inline like rubes walking the midway

 
HellToupee said:
Welcome to my world 4 years ago. How could anyone vote for Obama against Romney if they actually looked at the candidates. Mind boggling. The non freebie voters  only looked at the D and fell inline like rubes walking the midway
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The difference (one of them, anyway) is that Obama voters four years ago were more than willing to offer lengthy, rational, policy-based explanations as to why they were voting for him.  And when someone challenged them on one of their arguments they could respond. And when someone tried to explain something they hated about Obama, they'd respond to that too.

Trump's been a candidate for over a year now and we haven't gotten a single post explaining why someone would vote for him on the issues. The closest we've come is "protectionist trade policies!" but then as soon as someone points out that virtually every economist on both sides of the aisle rejects that as a terrible idea it's back to trolling and memes. And not one person responds to the many well-researched criticisms of Trump that have been posted here. 

For example I can pretty much guarantee that no pro-Trump voter will touch that Atlantic article about his sleazy "charity" workings on substance. If someone had posted something like that on Obama four years ago, posters would have broken it out point by point and explained why it was not accurate or not fair or whatever.  Care to take a shot on behalf of your guy?

 
How Did an Alleged Russian Mobster End Up on Trump's Red Carpet?


And here's a coincidence: The guy was indicted for being part of a global gambling ring run out of Trump Tower.

How did an alleged and notorious Russian mobster connected to an illegal international gambling ring run out of Trump Tower end up as a special guest at a Donald Trump event in Moscow in 2013? This may be one of the odder questions of the already-odd 2016 presidential campaign.

On April 16, 2013, federal agents burst into a swanky apartment at Trump Tower in New York City as part of a larger raid that rounded up 29 suspected members of two global gambling rings with operations allegedly overseen by a supposed Russian mob boss named Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov. The Russian was not nabbed by US law enforcement. Since being indicted in the United States a decade earlier for allegedly rigging an ice skating competition at the 2002 Olympics, he had been living in Russia, beyond the reach of Western authorities. And this new gambling indictment did not appear to inconvenience Tokhtakhounov. Seven months after the bust, he was a VIP attendee at Donald Trump's Miss Universe 2013 contest held in Moscow. In fact, Tokhtakhounov hit the red carpet within minutes of Trump. An alleged crime lord who was a fugitive from American justice was apparently a celebrity guest at Trump's event.

During the 2016 race, Trump's associations with Russia have sparked assorted controversies. He has praised Russian leader Vladimir Putin and made a series of contradictory remarks regarding his relationship with the autocrat. (In July, Trump said he had never spoken to Putin, but in a 2014 video, he claimed he had.) Trump has insisted on the campaign trail, "I have nothing to do with Russia." Yet he has a long history of attempting—and generally failing—to forge deals in that country. And Trump has been surrounded by campaign aides—including onetime campaign chairman Paul Manafort—with close and lucrative business ties to Russia and Putin allies.

 
Contrary to his claim of having nothing to do with Russia, Trump did pull off one major deal there: staging the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in the nation's capital. At the time, Trump co-owned the contest with NBC. The event landed him in the company of Tokhtakhounov and other high-profile Russians. And Trump hoped it would also bring him close to Putin. Months before the contest, he tweeted, "Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?"

Putin didn't show up, but, according to Russian media accounts and photos of the event, Tokhtakhounov did. He was part of a crew of wealthy and powerful Russians who, according to a press report, were treated as VIPs. Also present were Vladimir Kozhin, a top government official and member of Putin's inner circle (who the following year would be hit with US sanctions in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine) and Aras Agalarov, a Russian billionaire oligarch close to Putin with whom Trump wanted to develop a high-rise in Moscow. (Agalarov played a role in drawing the beauty contest to Moscow; it was held in a concert hall owned by his family business empire, and his son, a middling pop star, performed at the pageant.) After the event, Trump boasted to the New York Post, "Almost all of the oligarchs were in the room."

Asked how Tokhtakhounov came to be part of the red-carpet crowd at the event, a spokeswoman for Miss Universe, which Trump sold in 2015, said she was not familiar with his name.

In a phone interview with Mother Jones, Tokhtakhounov initially said he had not attended the beauty pageant. After being told that there were photos and media reports showing that he had been there, he acknowledged that he had been present at the glitzy gathering. But he denied that he had been a VIP and said he had purchased his own ticket. Tokhtakhounov also said he had no interaction with Trump at the event. 

The Trump campaign did not respond to a request for comment.

 
Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov's tale is an intriguing story of sports, Hollywood stars, poker, and alleged crime. The indictment filed by Preet Bharara, the US attorney in Manhattan, which triggered the 2013 raid, identified Tokhtakhounov as a vory v zakone—or a vor—a Russian term for a select group of the highest-level Russian crime bosses. A vor receives tributes from other criminals, offers protection, and adjudicates conflicts among other crooks. The indictment charged that Tokhtakhounov used his "substantial influence in the criminal underworld" to protect a high-stakes illegal gambling ring operating out of Trump Tower. He sometimes deployed "explicit threats of violence and economic harm" to handle disputes arising from this gambling operation. The indictment noted that in one two-month period he was paid $10 million by this outfit for his services.

The operations of the gambling scheme were handled by two other men: Vadim Trincher and Anatoly Golubchik. The indictment alleged that they and others ran "an international gambling business that catered to oligarchs residing in the former Soviet Union and throughout the world," used "threats of violence to obtain unpaid gambling debts," and "employed a sophisticated money laundering scheme to move tens of millions of dollars…from the former Soviet Union through shell companies in Cyprus into various investments and other shell companies in the United States." According to the US attorney, their enterprise "booked sports bets that reached into the millions of dollars" and laundered approximately $100 million.

Trincher, a dual citizen of the United States and Israel, was a championship professional poker player who had purchased a Trump Tower apartment located directly below an apartment owned by Donald Trump. In 2009, Trincher had paid $5 million for the posh pad. Two years later, he and his wife had reportedly hoped to hold a fundraiser in the apartment for Newt Gingrich's presidential campaign, but they had to cancel the event because of the presence of mold caused by a water leak. During one court hearing, the US attorney's office said that Trincher, then 52 years old, directed much of the racketeering enterprise from this Trump Tower apartment. "From his apartment, he oversaw what must have been the world's largest sports book," Assistant US Attorney Harris Fischman remarked. "He catered to millionaires and billionaires."

The indictment also targeted an associated gambling ring operated by Trincher's son Illya, Hillel Nahmad, the son of a billionaire art dealer, and others. (Nahmad also reportedly owned the entire 51st floor of Trump Tower.) This crew managed a high-stakes betting operation and money-laundering shop. The indictment charged another Trincher son named Eugene and several others with running illegal high-stakes poker rooms in and around New York City. This group included Molly Bloom, who had previously earned a reputation as an organizer of private poker games for celebrities, including Leonardo DiCaprio and Tobey Maguire. Following the raid, the New York Daily News reported that a witness told the paper that "games held by the crew in a Trump Tower apartment…[were] poker 'on steroids,' with cameos by movie and sports stars, including A-Rod."

Shortly after the indictment was issued, Tokhtakhounov told a Russian television channel that the case against him was "yet another fairy tale from the Americans." He claimed the prosecutors had included him in the indictment "to give the situation significance." He acknowledged that he knew two of the defendants and had placed bets with them. "Of course, in conversation," he added, "I might have given them advice on how to do things better."

 
Tokhtakhounov was trying to depict himself as a victim unfairly targeted by the United States. In 2002, he was indicted for allegedly fixing skating matches at the Salt Lake City Olympics. (The feds believed he had rigged events so that Russians would take home a gold and a French pair would win another gold—and he would pocket a French visa.) He was arrested in Italy, but soon Tokhtakhounov, who denied the charges, was let go and made his way back to Russia.

Something of a celebrity in Russia, Tokhtakhounov has engaged in various enterprises. He once owned casinos in Moscow. He claimed to be an organizer of pop concerts and fashion shows. He represented a modeling association, and he wrote novels. He lived in a high-end apartment building in Moscow and kept a palatial country house outside the city. He is currently wanted by Interpol for conspiracy to commit wire fraud, bribery conspiracy, wire fraud, and "bribery in sport contests."

A year following the Trump Tower raid, Trincher and Golubchik, after pleading guilty, were each sentenced to five years in prison. Each man was ordered to forfeit more than $20 million in cash, investments, and property. (Trincher's sons, Nahmad, and Bloom also pled guilty.) Tokhtakhounov, the US attorney's office noted, remained a fugitive.

Trump has cited the 2013 Miss Universe contest as proof he possesses serious foreign policy experience. In May, he told Fox News, "I know Russia well. I had a major event in Russia two or three years ago, which was a big, big incredible event." And it provided the reality television mogul the opportunity to hobnob with a Putin crony who is now under US sanctions, various oligarchs who are chums with the Russian leader, and an alleged Russian mafioso accused by the US government of protecting a global criminal enterprise that operated directly below one of Trump's own apartments in Trump Tower. What a small world.
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http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/trump-russian-mobster-tokhtakhounov-miss-universe-moscow

 
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TobiasFunke said:
The difference (one of them, anyway) is that Obama voters four years ago were more than willing to offer lengthy, rational, policy-based explanations as to why they were voting for him.  And when someone challenged them on one of their arguments they could respond. And when someone tried to explain something they hated about Obama, they'd respond to that too.

Trump's been a candidate for over a year now and we haven't gotten a single post explaining why someone would vote for him on the issues. The closest we've come is "protectionist trade policies!" but then as soon as someone points out that virtually every economist on both sides of the aisle rejects that as a terrible idea it's back to trolling and memes. And not one person responds to the many well-researched criticisms of Trump that have been posted here. 

For example I can pretty much guarantee that no pro-Trump voter will touch that Atlantic article about his sleazy "charity" workings on substance. If someone had posted something like that on Obama four years ago, posters would have broken it out point by point and explained why it was not accurate or not fair or whatever.  Care to take a shot on behalf of your guy?
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The Trump voters aren't really capable of that.  You would occasionally see a strong Romney guy give a dissertation on the pro/con of keynesian economy musings.  Those policy led discussions are gone.  All that's left is HILLARY IS WORSE OMG OMG.  There really isn't a single policy item Trump has that can be reasonably argued against what Hillary has up, she's just a tiny hair to the left of Romney on nearly all topics that matter.  She only swung left of Romney once it was necessary to take in some Sanders voters. So the reasonably well informed GOP types know there really isn't much to discuss and have long since abandoned this thread.

 
HellToupee said:
It absolutely is. The Obama win over Romney brought us TRUMP
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Please elaborate. Are you suggesting that Obama specifically brought us Trump, or that a Dem win over Romney brought us Trump? If you think Obama in particular is what brought this on, and that it wouldn't have happened with another Dem in office, then what is it about Obama in particular that drove it?

 
I get why Trump wants Ivanka out there making appearances and speeches.  But when she says Hillary Clinton's website doesn't have any health care policy proposals on it... I wonder how much longer the Trump campaign intends to deploy this "I know you are, but what am I?" strategy.

Hillary Clinton is a candidate with many, many weaknesses.  Claiming she is running a policy-free campaign is the opposite of true, very easily disproven, and the info Ivanka claims isn't there has been live for at least a year.

FWIW, there are thousands of words on health care policy on Clinton's website, broken down into many subcategories.  There might be more about health care on Hillary's website than there is on Trump's about all domestic and foreign policy combined.

Maybe the strategy is to drive traffic to Cinton's website to test the claim, then when voters get deluged in policy information they will get too bored to care or not want to vote for that brainiac know-it-all nerd.

 
igbomb said:
Are you suggesting that Obama specifically brought us Trump
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We've known for eight years that Obama is a secret Muslim trying to destroy the country. What we didn't realize is that his weapon of mass destruction is Trump. It's all coming together now.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
I get why Trump wants Ivanka out there making appearances and speeches.  But when she says Hillary Clinton's website doesn't have any health care policy proposals on it... I wonder how much longer the Trump campaign intends to deploy this "I know you are, but what am I?" strategy.

Hillary Clinton is a candidate with many, many weaknesses.  Claiming she is running a policy-free campaign is the opposite of true, very easily disproven, and the info Ivanka claims isn't there has been live for at least a year.

FWIW, there are thousands of words on health care policy on Clinton's website, broken down into many subcategories.  There might be more about health care on Hillary's website than there is on Trump's about all domestic and foreign policy combined.

Maybe the strategy is to drive traffic to Cinton's website to test the claim, then when voters get deluged in policy information they will get too bored to care or not want to vote for that brainiac know-it-all nerd.
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Because no one in the media calls them on it. 

 
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