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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)

Before I get bashed to pieces I'll preface this statement: I know Kahlil Mack is one of the best defensive players in the NFL. I believe hes a generational talent and I think he deserves every penny hes holding out for.

BUT... From an the organization's perspective is guaranteeing him $65-70 mil what's best for the franchise's future?

We hear it all the time... "Its a QB driven league". The big money goes to the QBs, that's just how it is today.  And another big chunk of change and draft picks goes to protecting those QBs. Look at what the Raiders are doing. They paid Derek, they used a 1st round pick on a LT and have one of the highest paid interior OLs in the league. Carr needs weapons, they gotta pay Cooper too. Gruden is going to focus on offense and trust in Guenther to turn around the defense. How quickly most of us forget. The defense has been HORRIBLE! Historically bad at times, with Mack. I'm just a fan, I don't know what the right answer is. But i don't think it would be the end of the world if Mack doesn't end up being a Las Vegas Raider. I hope they find a way to keep him, but from one fan to the rest of the Raider Nation, brace yourselves for the possibility of a "Mackless" future.

 
Why is the assumption that Mack is just waiting around for Raiders to make a decent offer?

Why is no one killing the Rams?

Why do people choke down every hot take some Clickbait reporter throws out there?

 
For the record (though I've said or implied it many times before), I have no problem with the Raiders paying Mack the going rate for the best edge in the NFL - i.e. ~$20 MM per and ~$70 MM guaranteed. He is worth that and I firmly believe they are offering him something near that.

 
massraider said:
Why is the assumption that Mack is just waiting around for Raiders to make a decent offer?

Why is no one killing the Rams?

Why do people choke down every hot take some Clickbait reporter throws out there?
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 Reportedly, the Rams  are making progress with their premier pass rusher. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 It does seem safe to say the Raiders have a better chance to win the Super Bowl with Kahlil Mack then without Kahlil Mack. 

Would you agree with that statement? 
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This is too much of a simplification. Add him to this year's roster and there might be absolute magic. Next year they are going to have to pay Cooper, Melvin, Bryant and potentially a new RT, among others while being cap strapped. And oh by the way, if they don't sign Mack, they still are virtually guaranteed to have him this year and next for any Superbowl run(s).

 
LawFitz said:
For the record (though I've said or implied it many times before), I have no problem with the Raiders paying Mack the going rate for the best edge in the NFL - i.e. ~$20 MM per and ~$70 MM guaranteed. He is worth that and I firmly believe they are offering him something near that.
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 I think this is an interesting direction to take this discussion… What do people see as a fair contract for possibly the best pass rusher in the NFL? 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 I think this is an interesting direction to take this discussion… What do people see as a fair contract for possibly the best pass rusher in the NFL? 
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Not 30% above Von in per year pay and 50% above in guarantees. That is what you have been arguing they should do for the last umpteen posts. According to the rumors and reports that I've seen, at least.

 
LawFitz said:
Not 30% above Von in per year pay and 50% above in guarantees. That is what you have been arguing they should do for the last umpteen posts. According to the rumors and reports that I've seen, at least.
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 That’s not what I’ve been arguing. I have been arguing that they should pay him. I never said how much they should pay him or how much of it should be guaranteed. That said, I am  also of the opinion that some of that should be guaranteed. He is a premium player. He could be and should be the centerpiece of that defense. He is a difference maker and a game changer. 

  Surely there must be something in the middle where the Raiders can guarantee some money, or backload a contract for the rest and still make Mack happy.

 I don’t think anyone here would argue that the Raiders are better with him than without him -  so they should be working as hard as humanly possible to make that happen. 

From everything I’ve heard, it’s a stalemate… Which seems foolish to me

 
^^^All you've said until just the last few posts is that the Raiders are stupid for not signing him. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it is what you said.

Like I've been saying all along, the Raiders want to sign him to a contract that makes him the highest paid edge in the league. It's Mack and his agent that are wanting WAY more than that. Bless 'em

 
LawFitz said:
^^^All you've said until just the last few posts is that the Raiders are stupid for not signing him. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it is what you said.

Like I've been saying all along, the Raiders want to sign him to a contract that makes him the highest paid edge in the league. It's Mack and his agent that are wanting WAY more than that. Bless 'em
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 Please quote me saying that they should guarantee all of that money. I’ll wait 

 
massraider said:
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-heres-why-aaron-donald-and-khalil-mack-are-still-waiting-for-new-deals/

Joel Corry with a good take on why Mack and Donald are unsigned.  This may take a while, and I think the chances that the reason Mack isn't signed is because the Raiders are beign cheap is pretty crazy.

Sooner he gets paid, the cheaper he's gonna be, but Mack isn't going anywhere, so don't worry about it yet.  
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I posted this in July.  Basically, Donald and Mack are in the territory of setting the market again for defenders.  They share an agent.  The Raiders control Mack for the next three years easily, so a trade isn't happening.  Also, even before the Donald talk started recently that they were close, there was STILL no talk that the Rams were being stupid, or that he was being traded.  So why is OAK different?

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 Broke ### Mark Davis needs to sell this team, or take out a loan to pay Mack.  

Generational talents at defensive line do not come along every day. That’s why they call them “generational talent”

This is just stupid. No one on defense should have to play on a “show me“ contract after the numbers he’s put up. 

 Pay the man. End this stupidity. 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
Mark Davis [is stupid]. 

The raiders front office [are stupid].

i don’t care what Belichick would do. They dealt Garaopolo & kept old AF Tom Brady, so I’m not sure the Pats are a beacon of competence to point to right now. 

And it’s irrelevant to whether or not the Raiders should pay arguably the best defensive lineman in the NFL - a disruptive force who terrorizes opposing QBs - and creates turnovers and points at a spectacular rate. 

That’s a man you pay. To trade him or let him hold out is stupid. Mark Davis, Raiders FO & maybe even Gruden are stupid here, to answer your question. Literally anyone in the Raiders org saying “nah, we don’t need that guy. Don’t pay him” is stupid.

every team needs that guy. 
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So what you meant with all of this, as it turns out, is that that Mack should sign the contract the Raiders are offering... i.e. highest paid edge in the NFL. And that he's stupid for not taking it. They are trying to pay him. He's trying to break them.

I'm glad to inform you of the real here, but next time before you come into a team thread popping off about how stupid the team leadership is, do some research first.

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 That’s not what I’ve been arguing. I have been arguing that they should pay him. I never said how much they should pay him or how much of it should be guaranteed. That said, I am  also of the opinion that some of that should be guaranteed. He is a premium player. He could be and should be the centerpiece of that defense. He is a difference maker and a game changer. 

  Surely there must be something in the middle where the Raiders can guarantee some money, or backload a contract for the rest and still make Mack happy.

 I don’t think anyone here would argue that the Raiders are better with him than without him -  so they should be working as hard as humanly possible to make that happen. 

From everything I’ve heard, it’s a stalemate… Which seems foolish to me
Click to expand...
It's possible for the Mack team to be unreasonable.  If I stipulate that having Mack makes a Super Bowl team more likely, will you agree that the previous statement is possible?

There is no history of this Raiders front office having a problem signing anyone.  In fact, they signed Carr before other QBs, without needing a franchise tag, or anything, and saved themselves millions in the process.  

 
By the way, the reporter that is talking about Mack holding out in the season, said this in the same article:

• Funding a long-term deal for Mack is not an issue for the Raiders’ Davis. Sources said Davis has the necessary financial liquidity to put Mack’s fully guaranteed funds into escrow, per the league’s collective-bargaining agreement.
Click to expand...
https://sports.yahoo.com/heres-raiders-khalil-mack-contract-stalemate-no-end-sight-053506892.html

The Raiders haven't even had to franchise him.  He is ENTERING the option year of his contract.  He's a bargain for this year, and he would be a bargain as a franchise player.  

Stop and think about if this is really as pressing a problem as some are making it out to be.  

I want him signed.  I am happy to overpay for our own homegrown defensive stud.  If we have to wait for Donald first, so be it.  It's not ideal, but most teams go through this.  We have time.  We have YEARS.  He cannot go anywhere.

 
LawFitz said:
So what you meant with all of this, as it turns out, is that that Mack should sign the contract the Raiders are offering... i.e. highest paid edge in the NFL. And that he's stupid for not taking it. They are trying to pay him. He's trying to break them.

I'm glad to inform you of the real here, but next time before you come into a team thread popping off about how stupid the team leadership is, do some research first.
Click to expand...
 Why do you insist on interpreting what I’m saying to suit your narrative? 

 Said consistently throughout this topic is that the Raiders are stupid to allow a stalemate to happen with their best defensive player. 

 That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 I said they’re stupid for not paying the man. They should pay him. He’s their best defensive player. They’re better with him then without him. So they should get it done. 

 If they cannot afford to get it done (as rumor has it)    Then Mark Davis should sell the team to someone who can afford to pay his players.

 I have not deviated from this position once throughout this topic. Pay your players. Do not allow still needs to happen with your best defense of player. Negotiate in good faith and keep your players happy. That’s part of owning and running a  football team. 

 I’ve been very clear in this. There is zero reason for you to interpret this in any other way that I have said it. 

 
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massraider said:
I want him signed.  I am happy to overpay for our own homegrown defensive stud.  If we have to wait for Donald first, so be it.  It's not ideal, but most teams go through this.  We have time.  We have YEARS.  He cannot go anywhere.
Click to expand...
 Exactly this. I’m not even a Raiders fan, but I think they should pay their best player and get a deal done even if that means overpaying him. 

 I am not as convinced that they have the money to do so. Rumors on local talk radio have said otherwise. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 Exactly this. I’m not even a Raiders fan, but I think they should pay their best player and get a deal done even if that means overpaying him. 

 I am not as convinced that they have the money to do so. Rumors on local talk radio have said otherwise. 
Click to expand...
They said that before we signed Carr as well.

 
massraider said:
It's possible for the Mack team to be unreasonable.  If I stipulate that having Mack makes a Super Bowl team more likely, will you agree that the previous statement is possible?

There is no history of this Raiders front office having a problem signing anyone.  In fact, they signed Carr before other QBs, without needing a franchise tag, or anything, and saved themselves millions in the process.  
Click to expand...
 I completely agree that’s possible. The Mack team may be unreasonable and their demands. 

 But that doesn’t mean you close down lines of communication as it sounds like the Raiders have done. At least, that’s been there public statement. 

 I can see there may be many things going on behind the scenes that the public is not privy to. 

 Seems like every year there are a number of players that are unreasonable in their demands. Yet somehow almost all of those teams manage to solve the crisis without a premier player missing games. 

 For the Raiders sake, I sure hope they can be one of those teams. 

 
@Hot Sauce Guy Now that you know more about the situation, who do you think is causing the stalemate?

I'll answer: it's Mack. Gruden's Raiders aren't stupid. Al would've paid him the ridiculous sum he wants. Al's dead. Stop listening to Cris Carter's hot takes.

 
LawFitz said:
@Hot Sauce Guy Now that you know more about the situation, who do you think is causing the stalemate?

I'll answer: it's Mack. Gruden's Raiders aren't stupid. Al would've paid him the ridiculous sum he wants. Al's dead. Stop listening to Cris Carter's hot takes.
Click to expand...
:lol:

 I never listen to Chris Carter. 

 I do listen to Greg Papa though. 

 I have no idea who’s causing the stalemate. All I know is stalemates are not productive. 

Somehow the situation has devolved. That seems foolish on both parts

 
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LawFitz said:
You mean the Greg Papa that was just let go under what are rumored to be not so great terms with Mark Davis? Might as well listen to Cris Carter.
Click to expand...
 Actually, Papa came out and said it was his own fault and he seems pretty amiable about it. He remains a big-time Raiders fan. I don’t think that is coloring his analysis of the situation. 

 You would have to listen to him to make the comparison to Chris Carter.  You would have to listen to him for yourself to confirm that,  but I think he’s still one of the best  analysts in the game, and particularly for Raider’s football. 

 
I reiterate that none of us know.  

Mark and Reggie are not going on the record, and Gruden is saying the right coachspeak without speaking to any negotiation details.

That leaves Mack's agent, and the media to create the story.  It's a fair bet that 'sources' is Mack's agent. ProFootballTalk built their business on agent 'sources'.  

There are points of no return where worry is warranted.  We haven't reached that point.

Once the last preseason game is over, that's one milestone.  Donald getting a deal is another milestone (and vice versa for the Donald holdout).  If Donald signs a deal, that sets the market.  If that doesn't move Mack's negotiation, I will worry.  If he sits out more than a game, I will worry.

I also don't think Mack is gonna sit out a bunch of games.  I also don't think he's getting traded, and I don't think there's any bad blood that a 65 mill guarantee wouldn't completely heal.

 
LawFitz said:
@Hot Sauce Guy Now that you know more about the situation, who do you think is causing the stalemate?

I'll answer: it's Mack. Gruden's Raiders aren't stupid. Al would've paid him the ridiculous sum he wants. Al's dead. Stop listening to Cris Carter's hot takes.
Click to expand...
Bingo! Older Raider fans were at the mercy of Old Al's bad decisions. From his treatment of Marcus Allen, giving away a 1st round pick for Richard Seymour, not keeping Gruden the first time around, Larry Brown, Javon Walker, DHB and on and on... Davis and Gruden are doing what other teams are doing. No one is giving the Rams and Steelers grief. But every time Bell and Donald show up and play. It's all part of the deal.

 
Given what we've seen from the Raiders defense in preseason, I am not too concerned even if Mack misses regular season games. This defense is going to be force with or without him. As long as he's there by the second half of the season, it'll be just fine. I suspect Gruden and Co. are currently operating from a similar view.

 
OK, since this is a fantasy football site,  if you had drafted Mack In an IDP league, what would your confidence be in that pick on a scale of 1 to 10 right now? 

 He was the fifth  defensive player off the board in my draft on Sunday. He probably would’ve been the first or second had he not been holding out. If the draft were today, I think he would’ve dropped a bit further still. 

 
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massraider said:
YES!

I also miss BIll King's voice.  

Not gonna lie, Tom Flores, Lincoln Kennedy, and JT the Brick aren't on my Xmas card list.......
Click to expand...
 I truly detest JT the brick. 

 I do like Lincoln Kennedy quite a bit though. I think he’s a fine analyst. 

Very bright guy and uses his substantial experience to color his opinions.  I disagree with him sometimes, but he does present his opinions thoughtfully. 

 
LawFitz said:
Given what we've seen from the Raiders defense in preseason, I am not too concerned even if Mack misses regular season games. This defense is going to be force with or without him. As long as he's there by the second half of the season, it'll be just fine. I suspect Gruden and Co. are currently operating from a similar view.
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That's what I've been trying to say. And Gruden said it for the whole world hear at the beginning of camp. "The defense wasn't very good WITH Mack the past couple years." They aren't worried about Mack, they're worried about how the He!! they're gonna cover Tyreek Hill twice a year lol. They'll get more pressure now (hopefully) with these young bucks on the Dline. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
OK, since this is a fantasy football site,  if you had drafted Mack In an IDP league, what would your confidence be in that pick on a scale of 1 to 10 right now? 

 He was the fifth  defense of player off the board in my draft on Sunday. He probably would’ve been the first or second had he not been holding out. If the draft work today, I think he would’ve dropped a bit further still. 
Click to expand...
I've never played IDP, but if Guenther's defense is anywhere near as good as it has looked, 16 games of Mack this year should make him the NFL's defensive player of the year. He's going to blow away his sack and TFL numbers with this scheme. That's why he should've reported to TC and worked for. I'm especially dismayed by his stance now that we've all seen what Guenther and the rooks are bringing. Effing Shilique even has game now!

Von reported. Carr reported. They got deals done. Follow their lead, Mack.

 
Bruno2 said:
That's what I've been trying to say. And Gruden said it for the whole world hear at the beginning of camp. "The defense wasn't very good WITH Mack the past couple years." They aren't worried about Mack, they're worried about how the He!! they're gonna cover Tyreek Hill twice a year lol. They'll get more pressure now (hopefully) with these young bucks on the Dline. 
Click to expand...
 That’s a little shortsighted in my opinion. A great way to defend Tyreek hill is by putting Mahomes on his rear end.  One with the strip sack that gets the Raiders the ball. The “Mack attack“  can make a shaky secondary look a whole lot better. 

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
OK, since this is a fantasy football site,  if you had drafted Mack In an IDP league, what would your confidence be in that pick on a scale of 1 to 10 right now? 

 He was the fifth  defense of player off the board in my draft on Sunday. He probably would’ve been the first or second had he not been holding out. If the draft work today, I think he would’ve dropped a bit further still. 
Click to expand...
I'd be worried about him pulling a hammy when he comes back.

But I wouldn't think he's gonna miss any games.  So 8, on a 1-10 scale.  

I've been reading too many quotes, from and about too many holdouts over the years, that made it sound like Player X was NEVER gonna play for Team Y ever again, and most somehow managed to show up, and collect checks.  

 
Bruno2 said:
Random thought... What if Arden Key ends up being a 10 sack a year guy? Would they trade Mack for a boatload of picks if that's the case? Key at a fraction of the cost (for a couple years anyway), 10+ sacks off the edge is still 10+ sacks no matter who's getting them.
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Yes but two 10+ sack guys is more.

MATH!!!

 
Also, Mack has made no inflammatory statements publicly.  He and Donald both seem content to let it play out.  No frustrating phone calls to Colin Cowherd, no angry tweets.

My favorite was the Detroit talk radio guy that said he spoke to a limo driver who said he was driving Mack to meet the Lions front office.   :lol:   

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
 That’s a little shortsighted in my opinion. A great way to defend Thai reek hill is by putting Mahomes on his rear end.  One with the strip sack that gets the Raiders the ball. The “Mack attack“  can make a shaky secondary look a whole lot better. 
Click to expand...
Agreed. The point I'm trying to make is Mack can't do it on his own. For years all they had on defense was Mack and Irvin and the rest was garbage. They also have to find a way to cover TEs and RBs coming out of the backfield which have killed them over the years.

 
#Raiders rookie Marcell Ateman has not dropped any of his nine catchable targets through three preseason games, the eighth-most receptions of any wide receiver without a drop this preseason #RaiderNation
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:thumbup:

 
massraider said:
How bad were the draft grades for this team, and what would they be today.

JUST SAYIN'
Click to expand...
Right? A starting LT, 2 DTs to push the pocket, a pass rusher in Key, a future RT (hopefully). And don't forget Nick Nelson. And Ateman as a possession/red zone target. They did their homework this year.

 
massraider said:
Also, Mack has made no inflammatory statements publicly.  He and Donald both seem content to let it play out.  No frustrating phone calls to Colin Cowherd, no angry tweets.

My favorite was the Detroit talk radio guy that said he spoke to a limo driver who said he was driving Mack to meet the Lions front office.   :lol:   
Click to expand...
 That was hilarious. 95.7 the game  kept playing the Larry David scene with the limo driver got drunk. I was dying. :lol:  

 
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