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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter joey
- Start date
Chadstroma
Footballguy
-Yup, missed on Bryant.... because of suspension.
-Ward was cut by the Cowboys and would have been cut by us. Switzer became expendable because of other moves panning out. We got something for him rather than nothing. I doubt we would have got anything for Ward if we had not made that move.
-Worley is another high risk/high reward situation. He has shown talent on another team and looked solid. He will sit a few and come back later.
-Ok, veterans. Gruden likes vets. And?
-You would have had them keep Melifonwu? Ok, sure, missed on the pick. All teams miss. I would say this draft is full of hits.
-Reports on team being demoralized? Fanbase.... sure. Team? I would like to see evidence and not your take on 'facts'
That last part shows how your facts are poo. So, go back to the Chicago Bears thread and poo there please.
I can't believe how much I'm in the minority here. Breaking the bank for pass rushers does not win championships. You all really think the Bears are going to the Super Bowl now?
Who's got the best winning percentage the past 18 years? The Patriots. Can you name their edge rushers in that time frame? Ok Chandler Jones. And what happened to him? Hes in Arizona on a mediocre team with QB issues. The only time they faltered is when they couldn't protect Brady.
Teams like the Rams get all the headlines, good for them. Paying the most money for FAs guarantees nothing in the win column. Who was picking the Eagles last year? No one! I'm not saying the Raiders are better off without Mack but I'm also saying they won't be as bad as all the naysayers, whiners and know-it-alls think they will be. This team goes how Derek Carr and the offense performs, just like two years ago. The defense is terrible, it's always been terrible. Has anyone been watching? Mack is exceptional, so is Von Miller. But is it worth Trevor Simien and 5 wins? That's the choice Denver made. The Raiders made the choice to go with the QB. You can't have the best of both worlds.
Who's got the best winning percentage the past 18 years? The Patriots. Can you name their edge rushers in that time frame? Ok Chandler Jones. And what happened to him? Hes in Arizona on a mediocre team with QB issues. The only time they faltered is when they couldn't protect Brady.
Teams like the Rams get all the headlines, good for them. Paying the most money for FAs guarantees nothing in the win column. Who was picking the Eagles last year? No one! I'm not saying the Raiders are better off without Mack but I'm also saying they won't be as bad as all the naysayers, whiners and know-it-alls think they will be. This team goes how Derek Carr and the offense performs, just like two years ago. The defense is terrible, it's always been terrible. Has anyone been watching? Mack is exceptional, so is Von Miller. But is it worth Trevor Simien and 5 wins? That's the choice Denver made. The Raiders made the choice to go with the QB. You can't have the best of both worlds.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Sounds like a crummy way to run a team to me.
Bears didn’t make concessions. They have Mack now.
all the Raiders had to do with Mack was pay him. They chose not to.
putting this on Mack after ADonald signed is kinda silly. Donald set the market.
The Raiders opted to not pay a top 3 DL market value. That’s the long and the short of it IMO.
I don’t see how you put this on Mack - why’s he gotta make concessions after the Aaron Donald deal?
Looking at the chronology, this seems like it’s 100% on the Raiders.
elshagon
Footballguy
I guess I don't agree with the bolded statement. Von Miller was the highest paid edge rusher at $19 million/year. Mack is now the highest paid at $23.3 million/year. So when you say the Raiders decided to not pay him market value which was Von Miller's $19 million by paying Mack almost 25% more it doesn't look like market value to me. It looks like 25% over market value to me. Sure the Rams did it with Donald but that may come back to haunt them when their QB is off his rookie deal. Choices have to be made, I would have liked to keep Mack but we may end up with a better opportunity to get better without him and his salary.
msommer
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Donald set the market.
Mack is arguably better than Donald.
the Bears paid Mack what he wanted - seems like regardless of what Donal got, you can’t argue that Mack got “market value”.
Its a risk to sign any player. They gave Carr a boatload of $.
What makes me believe they’re better off paying Mack, even at a premium; is that they may end up much worse as well. They may end up drafting poorly.
and for *this* year at least, they’re worse without Mack.
They had a chance to lock up 27 yr old Mack in his prime at a premium. And in 5 years, or whenever that deal would have ended, when Mack haz another 60 sacks under his belt (& lord knows how many FF/DFR) there will be another “next highest paid defensive player in the league”.
And today’s Mack deal will seem tame by comparison. Same as it ever was. This seems to happen all the time.
At the end of the day the odds that the Raiders improve by subtraction seem lower than the odds of paying Mack this much and regretting it later.
One guy’s opinion.
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elshagon
Footballguy
Yeah but Donald set the market at his position. It depends on how you want to value each position. The Raiders paid Carr and need to protect him by paying for offensive linemen. After that if you overspend too much at other positions you get yourself in trouble. Tying up 25% of your salary cap on two players is risky when you have as many holes to fill as the Raiders do. How do you fill holes? Through the draft. We are now set up to do just that over the next two years. Now they need to have another great draft like the one they just had and in a couple years hopefully this trade will be looked back at as something that was a positive. Sure sucks now though.
rockaction
Footballguy
Both you and Hot Sauce Guy are right, IMHO.
I think the situation comes down to an artificially depressed wage ceiling and timing.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
I don't see anyone disputing that but the defense will be better then last year. Better depth, better schemes, and better coaching.
ICON211
Footballguy
I still see people talking about what Reggie does and what Reggie values and this and that and I'm not sure why. Reggie may still have the GM title, but this is Gruden's show. He is calling all the shots and making the ultimate decisions.
Yesterday was a tough day, but I'm over it today. While losing Mack is not good, it's not the end of the world either. They decided they did not want to allocate that kind of money to a non QB. And the Bears met the price they needed to get to trade him. If you have a QB on his rookie deal it's a lot easier to pay Mack and Donald what they got. We don't have that situation.
Yesterday was a tough day, but I'm over it today. While losing Mack is not good, it's not the end of the world either. They decided they did not want to allocate that kind of money to a non QB. And the Bears met the price they needed to get to trade him. If you have a QB on his rookie deal it's a lot easier to pay Mack and Donald what they got. We don't have that situation.
ICON211
Footballguy
Well not really. Here are the real facts:
Traded a 3rd rd pick for Bryant months ago now cut - Yes, that is a fact, he was cut because of looming suspension.
Gave 33 yr old Nelson 14.2 mil over 2 years & cut Crabtree - Fact
Trade 2nd rd pick Ward for Switzer then dump him to Steelers for zip - Ward would have been cut anyway and since has been by Dallas. Raiders didn't get a lot for Switzer, but not nothing.
Sign Worley who gets arrested and suspended - He was arrested before Raiders signed him and they knew he would likely get some sort of suspension.
Sign 33 yr old Leon Hall to start - He was never signed to start.
Signs 35 yr old Reggie Nelson - Fact, but so what
Signs 35 yr old Derrick Johnson - Fact, but so what
Signs Tahir Whitehead to a 6.3 mil annual contract - Fact, but so what
Sign Marcus gilcrest to play safety cut 2nd rd pick Melifonwu - Fact, but so what
Trade all pro Khalil mack for a net 1st & 2nd rd pick Demoralizing your team - We all know the trade details and it might not be a net 2nd and the team being demoralized is your opinion
Tough to start a post with "here's the facts" then have it full of misinformation and inaccuracies.
massraider
Footballguy
Don't even try and get into a rational discussion with flapgreen. Waste of time.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I see an average D. And, an average O. We still don't have a true slot WR. Or TE. Or 3rd WR. I'm not sur RB is any better than last year. Lynch is a year older. Martin is still Martin and showed nothing during the preseason.
msommer
Footballguy
Are you saying there shouldn't be a salary cap?
If so, are you sure that would benefit the Raiders?
RaiderBones
Footballguy
I disagree with most of this to be honest but that's just my opinion.
Personally I think Cooper would thrive in the slot and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't spend a lot of time there this season.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
I think Patton said it best:
"what a day, when you can look it in the face and hold your vomit."
"what a day, when you can look it in the face and hold your vomit."
Chaka
Footballguy
No ####### way!!!
~Bruce Irvin
No way!
~Derek Carr
That doesn't sound too moralized to me.
RBM
Footballguy
WTF. You didn't really dispute anything he said. Just tried to spin the ugly truths to make yourself feel better.
rockaction
Footballguy
Eephus just told us during a music draft that the beatings would continue until morale improves. Somehow that seems apropos here.
RBM
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Wait, dude wanted to beat the week-old salary record for a pass rusher by 25%. That can't be the message the other guys are taking away.
Chaka
Footballguy
Donald set the market as reigning defensive MVP which makes it an apples to apples comparison to Mack.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am not certain Paul Guenther warrants any guarantee about that outcome. Most people thought it was a pretty vanilla hiring at best.
rockaction
Footballguy
But like people have pointed out, he set the market with a rookie quarterback contract. This is where the cap and CBA send such bad and distorted signals to these franchises and players. Any time you start to artificially depress a wage, you wind up with distorted info. Pricing and wages contains info. Regulation or outright capping kills that information.
efactor
Footballguy
Miller signed that contract two years ago. Times change, the cap goes up and Mack is a better player overall at this point (IMO anyway).
Assuming the NFL continues at their current financial growth status, Rodgers won’t be the highest paid QB in 2 years, even if he is still the best QB.
Chaka
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
msommer already called me out today on the cap/wage argument and Mack. Wanted to know if I was for a cap or not. I politely declined to open that barrel.
ICON211
Footballguy
I thought the Mack deal would have taken $60-70M guaranteed to get it done. It took $90M. They decided they didn't want to pay him that much especially given Carr is a really high priced player. They paid Carr and Gabe Jackson market rate as well as several other players. they didn't want to pay a non QB what mack got and got 2 1s for him. I'd rather have him than not, but I understand the team's position too.
massraider
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Uh, and they still gave up a 3rd round pick for a knucklehead that was 1 mistake from a suspension (which you admit was pending)
that was perhaps the worst move of any team in the NFL in the last few drafts I can remember. A total head scratcher - and you’re not exactly defending it here.
Does it make it a better move that Bryant is getting suspended?
I thought it was mostly accurate.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
I'd rather get Charles Tapper from DAL, but I think we stick with Irvin/Key/Brown/Calhoun rotation at DE.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I really believe it's going to a rough season. It's one thing to lose while rebuilding. It's another to lose while flailing about with no direction.
ICON211
Footballguy
I hate the Martavis Bryant thing. It might bother me more than Mack. I can't defend the Martavis Bryant trade. It was a big risk and it turned out to be totally wrong.Uh, and they still gave up a 3rd round pick for a knucklehead that was 1 mistake from a suspension (which you admit was pending)
that was perhaps the worst move of any team in the NFL in the last few drafts I can remember. A total head scratcher - and you’re not exactly defending it here.
Does it make it a better move that Bryant is getting suspended?
I thought it was mostly accurate.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
well thats not entirely true...they paid Carr
im guessing if they HAD the money to pay Mack they would have
when they get to Vegas things will be better ...again im just guessing
I keep thinking about the Defensive line the Raiders have right now...seems pretty damn good...maybe they see a couple of guys that can really bring it and are thinking they can pay them down the road when the cash flow is more abundant.....clearly this was a money issue
Chaka
Footballguy
Tapper is probably a better player at this point but Johnson can walk right into Guenther's system.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
and that seems REALLY important to Gruden....a lot of the vets he signed are familiar with his system and wanted them to show the young guys how it works...like player/coaches on the field
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
100% this.
So many here have disputed this though.
But then that depends on whether it’s a money issue because of smart cap management or if it’s a money issue because they simply don’t have the $.
if the former, which I doubt; I think they’re being penny-wise & pound foolish.
If the latter, Mark Davis should sell the team.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Mack no longer wanted to play for OAK and might have sat out the entire season and then jaked it next year on a Franchise tag. Once someone doesn't want to be somewhere there is nothing you can do. Mack would have earned $13.5MM this year- it's not like, say, a David Johnson making one-sixth or so of that. This is on Mack IMO and the Raiders did *great* to get what they did from CHI. And, when you have a salary cap, paying a non-QB the max salary is rarely "value" and the Bears lost this trade, big-time, unless Mack provides an "enthusiasm lift" in attendance or team performance.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Do I really need to remind you about last years DC and the immediate improvement when he was fired last year? Guenther is at least as good as Pagano. Much better than Norton (as much as I like Norton as a person).
I am not a fan of Vanilla Ice Cream but I will take it every time over a heap of rotten fish heads.
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ICON211
Footballguy
If he sat out the season his contract his contract would not have tolled and they wouldn't have had to franchise him. Pretty sure the Bears didn't have to worry about attendance.
