Ha! In an era when defenses are being hindered, they always seem to find a way to be the worst. But let's look at the big picture. There aren't many good defenses anymore. Giving up 400 yards passing is really no big deal. But when your offense can only muster 10 pts in essentially a home game environment it's on them, not the defense. They held the Chargers to 26 pts, pretty good in this day and age right? The offense is the problem, specifically Carr is the problem. Did anyone see the INT at the goalline? He threw it right to the LB! It was horrible! And uncalled for, for a guy making his kind of money. He's playing like a rookie all over again. Learning a new complex offense or not, that play was inexcusable.
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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter joey
- Start date
az_prof
Footballguy
I hate to say it, but at this point, would it make sense to trade Cooper to Dallas? Get something for him?
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
just awful.
i was at that NO opener, a few years ago. such optimism!
i barely recognize the team now.
i've had enough. all passion is gone. i just don't care anymore.
gruden sucks
i was at that NO opener, a few years ago. such optimism!
i barely recognize the team now.
i've had enough. all passion is gone. i just don't care anymore.
gruden sucks
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
I believe we will be taking that L with us.so, um, we're gonna get killed in Ondon, right?
signed,
Team Spirit!
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Probably not killed. Lynch will gain some yards. But, a loss is likely. Does it even matter?so, um, we're gonna get killed in London, right?
signed,
Team Spirit!
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Wow, a bunch of guys here talking as if they are so disgusted with this team they are ready to jump ship. Won't blame you as we're all going through the same despondence. "How much longer can we/should we endure?" I share that seemingly never-evending frustration, but I'm a Raider, ride or die. If that's not you, completely understand.
I can't believe we're still miring in the Mack debate 6 weeks in. Good evidence out there and in this very thread on how keeping Mack hamstrung the team financially, and that while it sucks, it's an understandable approach for a team in the NFL in this day and age. But if we want to still pick scabs off just-barely-fresh wounds, I'm game:
(Fair warning, classic STC wall of text/paragraphs of rant coming)
I guess I was naive thinking that the team and Mack would work something out to ensure he got paid what he deserved, and managed the cap to do so -- shedding guys like Lynch, Martin, and Penn next year to give us the space to carry both Carr and Mack. Maybe have some realistic expectations/flexibility by those two to shift their deals to help make it happen. We saw Penn do it, and we even saw Carr do it.
While I'm not sure if that was possible (I'm less cap savvy than many in here), I do know that I did not see Mack or his camp express any flexibility -- it was completely the opposite, actually. Pay him a record-setting deal (and more than Donald), period -- that was the refrain from Mack's agent.I totally get Mack's position on this, he's worth it, careers are short, make your money while you can.
I definitely think some of the blame may be on the Raiders -- no one knows for sure, but I wonder if they clearly floated more flexible options like that out there that got Mack his break-the-bank/market-settig deal, but paid out at a cadence that allowed the team to keep both Carr and Mack.
But let's not lay the blame solely on the Raiders -- or Gruden -- for not keeping Mack. Negotiation is a two-way street, and where we saw other top-positional guys on the team be willing to shift their deals for the benefit of the team, we didn't see that from Mack.
Let's also not be naive about the nature of the NFL -- it's stated myriad times earlier, but a talented QB -- not even an elite one -- is more valuable to a team and in today's pass-happy NFL. Look at where mediocre game managers like Alex Smith and Flacco are ranked in terms of highest players and highest QBs in the NFL. Between a young talented franchise QB and the best d-player -- at his position or overall -- it's no choice for today's NFL teams, they are banking the QB.
Let's also not be naive about Gruden -- any coach will come in and start building a team of "his guys." Gruden has a vision for his system, and like any new offensive system, it often takes more than a year to get the system installed and the right players in place. I'd prefer a coach who builds his own long term offensive vision and identity but with a near-term vision by installing an initial system that fits to the personnel he has, rather than the other way around.
That's not Gruden. And he wasn't brought in to do things based on the old way. And Gruden is clearly and obviously a QB guy (that shouldn't have surprised anyone), and I think he clearly like what he has in Carr in terms of skill and match to his system. Was a no-brainer choice from Gruden's perspective either.
We are absolutely in Year 1 of a rebuild (again), and Gruden needs to be held accountable for turning things around quickly. But for those who might feel like it was wrong to bring him in, that he sucks and never was good -- who else would you have preferred? Yet another mediocre retread like Hue or Del Rio? Been there done that. At least Gruden brings some juice and excitement, and while he has a long way to go to show it, I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg of what he can do until this team and Carr adjusts to another new -- a much more complex and dynamic -- system.
I do think Carr is one of a few QBs who has the mind and motivation -- and most of the skills -- to make this work. But even a bright leader like Carr doesn't turn water to wine in the first quarter of a season under a complex system like Gruden's. I do have faith he can do it, but like you wish we can see it earlier, and wish Carr was more consistent.
But until this team settles in, and until Gruden gets the right guys in place -- I think our last draft was a huge step in the right direction and looks like it could pay off as these players gel and develop -- we're gonna see a lot of cr@p go down on the gridiron.
We'll see whether this gamble will pay off in about 1.5-2 years. If it doesn't, that sets us back even further. But we would have been there anyway had we not brought in Gruden and tried to fundamentally change this team.
I can't believe we're still miring in the Mack debate 6 weeks in. Good evidence out there and in this very thread on how keeping Mack hamstrung the team financially, and that while it sucks, it's an understandable approach for a team in the NFL in this day and age. But if we want to still pick scabs off just-barely-fresh wounds, I'm game:
(Fair warning, classic STC wall of text/paragraphs of rant coming)
I guess I was naive thinking that the team and Mack would work something out to ensure he got paid what he deserved, and managed the cap to do so -- shedding guys like Lynch, Martin, and Penn next year to give us the space to carry both Carr and Mack. Maybe have some realistic expectations/flexibility by those two to shift their deals to help make it happen. We saw Penn do it, and we even saw Carr do it.
While I'm not sure if that was possible (I'm less cap savvy than many in here), I do know that I did not see Mack or his camp express any flexibility -- it was completely the opposite, actually. Pay him a record-setting deal (and more than Donald), period -- that was the refrain from Mack's agent.I totally get Mack's position on this, he's worth it, careers are short, make your money while you can.
I definitely think some of the blame may be on the Raiders -- no one knows for sure, but I wonder if they clearly floated more flexible options like that out there that got Mack his break-the-bank/market-settig deal, but paid out at a cadence that allowed the team to keep both Carr and Mack.
But let's not lay the blame solely on the Raiders -- or Gruden -- for not keeping Mack. Negotiation is a two-way street, and where we saw other top-positional guys on the team be willing to shift their deals for the benefit of the team, we didn't see that from Mack.
Let's also not be naive about the nature of the NFL -- it's stated myriad times earlier, but a talented QB -- not even an elite one -- is more valuable to a team and in today's pass-happy NFL. Look at where mediocre game managers like Alex Smith and Flacco are ranked in terms of highest players and highest QBs in the NFL. Between a young talented franchise QB and the best d-player -- at his position or overall -- it's no choice for today's NFL teams, they are banking the QB.
Let's also not be naive about Gruden -- any coach will come in and start building a team of "his guys." Gruden has a vision for his system, and like any new offensive system, it often takes more than a year to get the system installed and the right players in place. I'd prefer a coach who builds his own long term offensive vision and identity but with a near-term vision by installing an initial system that fits to the personnel he has, rather than the other way around.
That's not Gruden. And he wasn't brought in to do things based on the old way. And Gruden is clearly and obviously a QB guy (that shouldn't have surprised anyone), and I think he clearly like what he has in Carr in terms of skill and match to his system. Was a no-brainer choice from Gruden's perspective either.
We are absolutely in Year 1 of a rebuild (again), and Gruden needs to be held accountable for turning things around quickly. But for those who might feel like it was wrong to bring him in, that he sucks and never was good -- who else would you have preferred? Yet another mediocre retread like Hue or Del Rio? Been there done that. At least Gruden brings some juice and excitement, and while he has a long way to go to show it, I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg of what he can do until this team and Carr adjusts to another new -- a much more complex and dynamic -- system.
I do think Carr is one of a few QBs who has the mind and motivation -- and most of the skills -- to make this work. But even a bright leader like Carr doesn't turn water to wine in the first quarter of a season under a complex system like Gruden's. I do have faith he can do it, but like you wish we can see it earlier, and wish Carr was more consistent.
But until this team settles in, and until Gruden gets the right guys in place -- I think our last draft was a huge step in the right direction and looks like it could pay off as these players gel and develop -- we're gonna see a lot of cr@p go down on the gridiron.
That would suck, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. I would like to see Cooper happy and flourishing, he's a great player with loads of heart. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him go if, to my points above, he doesn't fit what Gruden is trying to do. Cooper needs to develop himself, and owns getting some fire in his belly on the field to challenge and fight for every ball, and consider it his ball and no one else's. I question whether he's that guy, actually, but would rather keep him than not. But if it doesn't happen, I won't be surprised.
We'll see whether this gamble will pay off in about 1.5-2 years. If it doesn't, that sets us back even further. But we would have been there anyway had we not brought in Gruden and tried to fundamentally change this team.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
We're what, 1-2 in international games? The Seahawks definitely match up better to us both against the pass and the rush, and without any sign of a pass rush, we're way less dynamic in our defensive attack. But it's not as if we're facing tough match ups either.so, um, we're gonna get killed in London, right?
signed,
Team Spirit!
The passing game for the SEA has not gotten off the ground at all this year, and their O-line has let in the 3rd most sacks in the league. Conley and Melvin need to step up and do their jobs, period. Lockett and Baldwin are really talented, but can be covered. Not having a pass rush may ironically help us keep Wilson in the pocket, as he is so good at extending plays and making things happen when he's pressured and flushed. If we can leverage Hurst and the same kind of play that limited Gordon to 58 yards and 3 ypc, we can make the Seahawks more vulnerable an one-dimensional, which will help.
Seahawks have gotten gashed recently on the ground, but they've faced some pretty elite backs over the last few weeks. IMHO, they will face another one if Lynch gets fired up for this game -- he can do damage. If we're forcing Wagner to cover the run, and Miller helps shut down Frank Clark who is the biggest generator of QB pressure this season, we can give Carr time to do damage downfield. Without Thomas in the secondary, the Seahawks become much more vulnerable -- McDougald is still dangerous, but if we give Carr time and attack with Coop, Jordy, Cook, and Rishard while forcing the SEA to respect the run, I think we have a good shot to get the win.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
The Carr deal is the one that I'm not happy with. We signed him after 1 good year where a lot of things went right, then wrong, and we payed a lot of money to protect him. I understand getting a Franchise QB in and signed but were we too hasty? Was there discussion during that contract negotiation about the reality of Mack being the better player and would Carrs side take less to keep Mack on board?
Thing the that i always come back to is: What if we spent all that money, or just half of it surrounding both Carr and Mack, or just Mack. Where would we be?
RaiderBones
Footballguy
The good news is that Carr's contract is fairly cap friendly if the Raiders decide to move on from him starting next season and getting better from there.
ICON211
Footballguy
Bridgewater is the only interesting name of the group. The Raiders also have two first round picks and can draft a QB at one of them or use them to move up. Hopefully Carr plays really well the rest of the year and we don't have to start over at QB.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
If we allocated the money just for Mack and not aim to keep Carr?
We’d have McCarron as our starter. Maybe we’d have kept EJ or Cook. All sucky options, the same level of suck as the list that @FreshiZ posted.
Carr isn’t elite, nor is he playing to his potential. He is light years ahead of these other guys despite his travails.
Disagree. I do think Carr is Gruden’s guy. Gushed over him more than he usually gushes in his QB camp, and I believe part of the reason he came back to coach the Raiders - he sees a QB that can handle his system.ICON211 said:
Carr is definitely not the same QB physicall as he was in 2016. But I believe with a consistent offensive system, he’ll improve. Maybe not be elite or regain his accurate long ball, but improve to direct Gruden’s offense.
I also think the Raiders draft a QB next year. Maybe in the first round. That will set analysts and armchair GMs on fire with the narrative that Gruden is moving on from Carr.
But give the sorry state of our backup situation, having a decent backup only makes sense. We don’t have that now. It will help push Carr and provide security/contingency if we do move on because of injury or ineffectiveness.
But I do think Carr is Gruden’s guy.
Pressure is on everyone on this squad, not just Carr. And especially Gruden.
To that point, I do wonder if we’d have enough capital to afford Mack and Carr both if we didn’t pay Gruden so much.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
The reason some of us are still hung up on the Mack trade is because it was clear evidence the team didn’t put winning as their top priority. It was the day I could never look at the slogan Commitment to Excellence and not shake my head and laugh. Mack was the team’s best player. You don’t trade your best player if winning is your top priority. You figure out creative ways to keep your best player. I have mentioned upstream some avenues they could have taken to keep Mack.
It was also clear evidence that Lloyd Christmas is in over his head as an NFL owner. Some would argue that giving Gruden that huge contract was just as incriminating to Davis’ incompetency. Davis said he didn’t want to trade Mack. Someone should wake him up and tell him Gruden works for him.
This team looks to be picking in the top 10 in the near term and likley longer due to front office incompetence and Gruden's ego.
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Chaka
Footballguy
I'm not sure I buy the whole "Raiders could only afford Carr or Mack" narrative.
So teams can't have two great players? Carr's contract has already been surpassed a couple of times and the cap goes up every single year.
I think that argument is merely about helping rationalize not hating the team.
So teams can't have two great players? Carr's contract has already been surpassed a couple of times and the cap goes up every single year.
I think that argument is merely about helping rationalize not hating the team.
ICON211
Footballguy
There very well might be a Rich Gannon out there in Gruden's mind. He might have traded for him already. I don't think we really know what his plan is at QB despite his praise of Carr.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Cooper out with concussion, first half riddled with mistakes, penaties, turnovers, O line being a turnstile, horrific playcalling, poor coverage....
This tram is officially a dumpster fire and so hard to watch.
I thought Gruden was a guy who at least could adjust gameplan when they are so over matched, use TEs to help in protection, shake up the play calls.
He hasn’t this game so far at all, and I haven’t seen it all year.
Guys look dejected out there.
Maybe next year, but not holding my breath.
I had some hope, as evident from my posts above. Watching this game completely sapped any hope and joy out of me.
This tram is officially a dumpster fire and so hard to watch.
I thought Gruden was a guy who at least could adjust gameplan when they are so over matched, use TEs to help in protection, shake up the play calls.
He hasn’t this game so far at all, and I haven’t seen it all year.
Guys look dejected out there.
Maybe next year, but not holding my breath.
I had some hope, as evident from my posts above. Watching this game completely sapped any hope and joy out of me.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
No. No you don’t.
Enjoy the travels abroad (you don’t live in Budapest, do you?). No reason to ruin your day.
Chaka
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Cowboys.
ETA but it seems close. Still, love it or hate it (i hate it) it's too early to cut bait. Gruden is clearly cleaning house, Reggie will likely be gone too (definitely if rumors about Coop and Joseph being in the block are true) so we have to simply accept we are in full blown rebuilding mode and give it a chance.
Any chance we can trade Carr, Coop and Joseph for Khalil Mack?
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joey
Footballguy
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Cooper and Joseph on the trade block? Do they have the same agent as Mack?
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I we are truly committed to rebuilding, we should consider putting Gruden on the block.
Worked once, and if I recall, we got two 1sts and two 2nd round draft picks over three years.
Worked once, and if I recall, we got two 1sts and two 2nd round draft picks over three years.
$10 million a year to turn a team into the worst team in the league. Over-rated loser is stealing $ from the Raiders. I always knew he was a garbage head coach but he's taking it to new levels of suck.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
RaiderBones
Footballguy
What's the over/under for McCarron's first start?
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Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
If Denver keeps going the way it is maybe we can get Musgrave back!
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Praying Cooper gets traded to a team that will target him. Colts, Cowboys, Redskins, and dare I say, even the Browns reoresentt in upgrade for Cooper.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Packers, Philly, Rams...
ICON211
Footballguy
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
But we're giving up the 33rd overall pick.oswizzle said:
Ed Wood
Footballguy
I wonder at what point Gruden will declare his work so unsuccessful that he "won't take their money" as he vowed before the season? I'd say not in the first two years while he accumulates "his" guys. Maybe after that... 
I hate to harp on the Mack deal but this team is/was in a rebuild mode and when you're rebuilding you don't trade a player who's 27, in his prime and makes everyone around him better. YOU BUILD AROUND HIM. Especially when he's a model citizen on and off the field that his teammates love and respect.
Of all the numerous wacky things Gruden has done since taking over, this was by far the wackiest. Depending on what they do with their picks, that deal could set this team back 2 to 5 years.
I hate to harp on the Mack deal but this team is/was in a rebuild mode and when you're rebuilding you don't trade a player who's 27, in his prime and makes everyone around him better. YOU BUILD AROUND HIM. Especially when he's a model citizen on and off the field that his teammates love and respect.
Of all the numerous wacky things Gruden has done since taking over, this was by far the wackiest. Depending on what they do with their picks, that deal could set this team back 2 to 5 years.
kaso
Footballguy
Well I sure am happy I didn't have an opportunity to watch the game yesterday. The updates I got on Twitter and from a few buddies were enough for me to go home and immediately delete the recording.
While I can't speak to in game specifics. I am mightily confused by some of the tidbits I read about the game.
Why was Carr throwing behind the line of scrimmage so much?
What the hell happened to the protection? Again, just based on a few articles this was the most consistent pressure that Carr has faced in quite some time, and Seattle isn't a team known for their dline.
What has Conley done to earn 0 defensive snaps? In a lost season, and a lost game, even more reason to put a player out there and get real NFL experience under his belt.
The 2018 Raiders are ruining the football season for me.
While I can't speak to in game specifics. I am mightily confused by some of the tidbits I read about the game.
Why was Carr throwing behind the line of scrimmage so much?
What the hell happened to the protection? Again, just based on a few articles this was the most consistent pressure that Carr has faced in quite some time, and Seattle isn't a team known for their dline.
What has Conley done to earn 0 defensive snaps? In a lost season, and a lost game, even more reason to put a player out there and get real NFL experience under his belt.
The 2018 Raiders are ruining the football season for me.
Chaka
Footballguy
Let this one sink in people. Zero snaps. Zero as in none, nada, zilch, bupkis, nil, zip, nothing, goose egg, null, aught and absolutely ######## insane.
Reggie is clearly out the door so next year we can look forward to bad coaching AND a screwed up cap.
Winning?
