Sucks that this season has gone so haywire that I can't even enjoy beating the Steelers. As the organization has shown us, future draft picks more important than what happens this year. So, we win to take ourselves out of lead for #1 pick, AND Cooper continues to flourish like Mack. Real bad look for Gruden & McKenzie.
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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter joey
- Start date
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Cooper flourishing is the understatement of the week. Good lord. The raiders look like tools.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
As much as I love villapiano he is wrong. I'd say it to his face and run like hell then buy him a beer
or
if he abides, put on the pads and let him take his shot on a crossing pattern. As long as we can document it and go for a beer afterwards
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
Villipiano looks foolish. How is Cooper responsible for not getting targets or for being traded? Villapiano should be furious at the person or persons trading away great young players.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
Why? Cooper was playing like crap for the Raiders. You could see it on the field and in his body language. Cooper was half assing it on the field for the Raiders for a while now. I believe that is what Villapiano was talking about.
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Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Good win over an historic rival to help dampen their playoff push.
Sucks to be in a position where our draft picks look worse as a result of a win, but you play to win so glad we're not just rolling over and have some degree of fight in it.
Conley seemed to have a solid game, and the win gives Gruden and company something to be positive about.
Looks like Reggie continues to be talked about as a guy not returning next year.
Sucks to be in a position where our draft picks look worse as a result of a win, but you play to win so glad we're not just rolling over and have some degree of fight in it.
Conley seemed to have a solid game, and the win gives Gruden and company something to be positive about.
Looks like Reggie continues to be talked about as a guy not returning next year.
Chaka
Footballguy
I was also vocally critical of Coop but obviously there is a little more to that story. Considering what he is doing after a mid-season trade while being the only option in the passing game with an average QB you have to wonder if maybe his frustration was a little justified and his lack of performance should be put on Gruden.krsone21 said:
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
Even Gruden said that Cooper was open but was not getting the ball. There was something going on and it was not all or even much of Cooper. It is not like Cooper asked to be traded. That would have been made public by now.
The whole Cooper situation just shows how messed up and dysfunctional this organization has been and is becoming. It doesn't matter why he wasn't getting the ball, the fact that nobody at the Raiders facility could figure out how to get him the ball or keep him motivated is pathetic. Everyone in that building should be ashamed of themselves. Its getting tiresome watching all these ex Raiders excel, good for them, but the Raiders have essentially become a farm team for the rest of the league.
Chaka
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Good for Reggie to get out of the Gruden disaster. Reggie was not a draft master but he did ok. From what Gruden has shown so far, this is not going to be a favorable move for the Raiders.
ICON211
Footballguy
Never got all the Reggie love in here. He was a poor drafter that did not come close to building a championship caliber roster and had two bad coaching hires. 1 playoff appearance and 0 playoff wins in six years. I doubt anyone is going to be beating down his door to give him another GM job. Gruden may well turn out to be worse at running the show, but let's not act like Reggie built a dynasty here.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Here is what I don't get with Cooper. The entire time he was with us he struggled with drops. Now, unless he had a drop this last game (I didn't check) then he has not had one single drop in any of the games with the Cowboys.
What the hell.
What the hell.
kaso
Footballguy
The love for Reggie was driving out of three key points;
1. He wasn't Al Davis (in the later years of Davis and his decision making)
2. He got the Raiders out of cap hell and handcuff's way faster than anybody assumed.
3. The contracts he offered were sound and extremely team friendly.
Reggie will be the next GM hired. There is no doubt that he will be sought after.
Chaka
Footballguy
Not sure how it was scored but he had a bad one go through his hands and hot him in the face yesterday.
Chaka
Footballguy
Considering how well Mack and Cooper are playing I think it is fair to wonder how much better every player on the roster would perform elsewhere.
squistion
Footballguy
Not really if he was going to be let go anyway, This may have been to distract from Cooper's 3 TD game yesterday (or maybe suggest that he was somehow responsible).
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
#2 and #3 specifically is what I think Reggie did a great job with. Yes, the coaching decisions were spurious -- Reggie walked in before the 2012 season started, replacing Hue Jackson with Dennis Allen. Arguable who is a worse HC buwe promptly dropped from two consecutive seasons at 8-8 to three seasons of not winning more than 4 games. So as a GM who brought in the right coaches, Reggie was not your guy.
However he absolutely set us up the right way in managing through contracts and cap space. I credit his moves as the ones that helped us shed dead weight and put together a team via draft, FA, and retention of the right players and get us to 12-4 and back in the playoffs in 2016.
I don't have an answer on why the team suddenly reversed fortune in 2017 outside of Carr not seeming to clearly be back from injury. But the pieces put in place going into this season as well as our draft gave me a lot of hope and, I thought, were enough to give Reggie another year. And our woes this year aren't solely at the feet of Reggie.
I get why he was fired, but I think Reggie deserved more benefit of the doubt -- at least one more year to help Gruden and team through transition. If not for drafting, at least in planning for contractual issues as we get so many draft picks last year and these upcoming two years, that seem to play to Reggie's ability to cut the right deals, restructure deals correctly, etc.
Love seeing Cooper flourish and show some fire to boot. But he is not suddenly an entirely different players. In the last few games I've seen him drop or not hang on to catchable balls -- the one @Chaka references is a good one -- was this the one where the ball hit Cooper square in the breadbasket? He still has instances where he can have better hands, and to be fair, he still is an amazing route runner. Lot of good and not so good about his game that persists, and that gets lost in how everyone loves to see this kind of situation in a more binary light.
ICON211
Footballguy
Mack played just as well with the Raiders as he is in Chicago. The difference is he has better players around him and his team is winning so more people are taking notice of just how great he is. As far as Amari he looked like the same player this year as he did last year under two different coaching staffs. He is being used as a true 1 in Dallas so some of that is on Gruden, but I think just the change of scenery has been good for him.
Reggie did have some draft hits, but not enough. When I looked I saw 10-12 good picks in six drafts. He had a couple great picks and the rest not very good. You're not going to win consistently with only a handful of good players and the Raiders roster was severely lacking especially when you consider he had six years to build it however he saw fit.
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ICON211
Footballguy
Reggie drafted 3 players to build around. In my opinion where he failed was who he tried to bring in as the supporting cast for Mack (especially), Carr and Cooper. He hit on some free agents on offense like with Crabs, KO, Penn and Hudson. But on the defensive side of the ball he was never able to bring in the right guys to support Mack. The failed 2nd round draft picks were killers (Watson, Edwards, Ward and Obi) I think Joseph was the wrong pick, and Irvin was always a situational player. Sean Smith was a horrible get and Amerson was a little unfair. He played great to get his extension then mailed it in. The secondary has always been a joke and for some reason they could never find a playmaker in middle of the defense. And overall, the depth was razor thin. This was pretty evident in 2016 after Carr went down, the whole team deflated and were defeated even before they took the field in Houston that year. Then look to 2017 with all the locker room drama, just speculation, but maybe Gruden saw this as a no win situation and blew it all up.
ICON211
Footballguy
Completely agree with this. I think people are overrating the job he did based on only a few players. The roster he built as a whole was not good enough.
Before Reggie we sucked and were the laughing stock of the NFL and it was so bad that we couldn't defend it. Reggie got us to not suck so bad but more importantly got us some self respect back and gave us hope that at least the captain wasn't going to run us into an iceberg. This was an organization on life support and Reggie helped us down the road of healing. Now it looks like our sickness is coming out of remission. If we turn back into a complete s**t show again, the only thing left to do is get Davis to sell the team. Win, lose or draw I put the outcome all on Davis going forward. He had a GM that was going to keep the business financially sound. If it all goes sideways again, I hope that mofo goes absolutely broke and is delivering my pizzas.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
From what I can recall this year he had caught just about everything, catchable, thrown his way.
much different to last year
joey
Footballguy
Agreed. I haven’t watched all the Cowboys games the past few weeks but, the parts I have seen, Cooper is making catches that he was dropping half the time in the past year+ with the Raiders. I think the dude is uber-focused and determined since the trade. "Chip on the shoulder" type deal.
Chaka
Footballguy
Yes/No. The defensive acquisitions were mostly busts (I think MEIII got derailed by injury more than anything) but he built one of the best offensive line in the league, through good drafting and FA acquisitions, provided a legitimate #1 WR talent and a borderline #1 talent as the #2 WR. Clive Walford was a sad miss at TE. But I can't think of many teams that survive their franchise QB going down.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
You definitely want a GM with a better draft track record, and the criticism in that sense is fair -- you want to see continued, sustained, forward momentum, and quick, decisive, and smart course corrections when you don't have that forward trajectory that gets you back on track quickly.
But some other realities: Reggie himself isn't solely responsible for making draft picks by himself in a vacuum. First round picks in general have about a 53% success rate -- and these are for widely accepted and lauded blue chip prospects. Let's not pretend that most draft picks hit across the board, year in/year out, for any team let alone the Raiders. PFF did a study last year, I believe, rating the previous 20 years of picks, finding only 7.9% of picks were either great or legendary, with 79.5% of picks labelled average, poor, useless, or DNP. Far from the exact science I see it expected to be time in and time out.
I also think that we're shortsighting this year's draft with Miller, Hall, Hurst, Key, maybe even Ateman. Jury is still out, probability is that they fall in this average-to-useless bucket given historical data, but they've all looked solid this year and seem to have a good base to build from. TIme will tell from this crop, but I'm willing to bet this will turn out to be Reggie's second strongest draft after 2014.
But some other realities: Reggie himself isn't solely responsible for making draft picks by himself in a vacuum. First round picks in general have about a 53% success rate -- and these are for widely accepted and lauded blue chip prospects. Let's not pretend that most draft picks hit across the board, year in/year out, for any team let alone the Raiders. PFF did a study last year, I believe, rating the previous 20 years of picks, finding only 7.9% of picks were either great or legendary, with 79.5% of picks labelled average, poor, useless, or DNP. Far from the exact science I see it expected to be time in and time out.
I also think that we're shortsighting this year's draft with Miller, Hall, Hurst, Key, maybe even Ateman. Jury is still out, probability is that they fall in this average-to-useless bucket given historical data, but they've all looked solid this year and seem to have a good base to build from. TIme will tell from this crop, but I'm willing to bet this will turn out to be Reggie's second strongest draft after 2014.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Was the last draft Reggie or Gruden? It is too early to tell but so far this is an average draft at best. Next year and the year after are really when the 2018 draft should be graded. The pick that looks really bad so far is Miller.
Ok Miller is no Johnathan Ogden but think hes done ok. Clark from the Seahawks and Judon from the Ravens ate him up pretty bad from what I saw, and hes definitely had some bad games but I think hes looked good at times. At best he has potential to become a solid LT, which isn't a terrible thing. We'll know a lot more about him next season after taking his lumps this year. Don't get me wrong, I would be much happier with Derwin James at that pick, but you know, it's the Raiders ....
ICON211
Footballguy
Reggie may have had the GM title when the draft took place, but this is Gruden's draft. Everything that has happened since the draft has shown this is Gruden's show and he has final say on the roster and pretty much everything else.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Interesting how well Carr is playing lately. I think if he has the surrounding talent he can get a team to the playoffs. If Gruden trades him, as some have advocated, it would be just as egregious as the Mack trade. From a dynasty prespective I think this is an interesting landing spot for a rookie/FA.
I wonder what kept Cooper from succeeding in Oakland. Can anyone recall a player that has had the career arc like Cooper?
I wonder why it took the team so long to get Conley on the field. He looks capable of being a shut down CB.
I wonder what kept Cooper from succeeding in Oakland. Can anyone recall a player that has had the career arc like Cooper?
I wonder why it took the team so long to get Conley on the field. He looks capable of being a shut down CB.
These are questions I have too. I think the Cooper debacle is a combination of issues which stems from the lack of coaching stability that has plagued the team during the Reggie era. We heard all the time how QBs like Carr who are forced to learn new offenses every year struggle. Well, couldn't the same be said for WRs? Add that to Carr's problems, the rookie tackles and the lack of a consistent running game to keep defenses honest could have frustrated Cooper. Athletic ability has never been a question with Cooper, it's always been the lack of passion and fire he always seemed to display. I think simply put, a change of scenery is what he needed.
Conley is a different situation altogether. I think there are a lot of behind the scenes stuff we'll never know. Maybe early in the season Gruden didn't like his attitude, work ethic, who knows... I seem to remember earlier in the season Melvin was having issues with Gruden and got benched for a couple weeks. Something like that may have been going on with Conley too. I will say he does flash some serious talent at times. Hopefully he can lock down one of those corner positions heading into next season and onto Vegas. Just my 0.02.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Fantastic questions, all of them.
Have no clue on the answers of what was bottling up the Carr/Cooper connection, or why it took so much time to get Conley playing time. I do agree that shedding Carr would be a terrible move at this point, as I've mentioned, because it completely invalidates the one sane reason why we moved Mack (we couldn't likely keep both and build a winning team).
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Carr will probably be around for another year for the reason you pointed out. Its going to be fun watching Cooper and Mack in the playoffs this year. Yay football.
More salt in the wound... Last weeks AFC Defensive Player of the Week was..... Denico Autry. Fun times to be a Raider fan.
He's pumped and playing with a chip on his shoulder. Give him time to get settled and sign his brand new, expensive contract. Four or five games don't make a hall of famer. Give him time time to get settled.
Lot's of doom and gloom in here. Looking on the bright side of things, Raiders have actually been playing better. A ton of Carr bashing the beginning of the season but he has thrown 11 TD's and zero INT over the past eight games. Granted he had some stinkers in there (Ravens, Seahawks) but you have to give him some slack for the WR's available and Cable as OL coach. Maybe we are finally seeing the players getting adjusted to a whole new coaching staff.
Even the defense seems to have improved ..... a little anyway. Great to see Conley on the upswing.
Still OK with both trades even though it is painful seeing the Cowboys and Bears dropping the picks to the end of the round. May change my mind in a year or two but for the long term, still believe it was the thing to do. Have a LOT of wholes to fill. LB should be #1 priority.
Funny, most years except the Mack/Carr year the pundits basically panned McKenzie's drafts and said they overreached. Gruden started trading and cutting them and suddenly and suddenly it was Gruden dumping all of McKenzie's wonderful pics. You knew he was gone eventually. Timing was strange. Figured it would be at the end of the season.
Even the defense seems to have improved ..... a little anyway. Great to see Conley on the upswing.
Still OK with both trades even though it is painful seeing the Cowboys and Bears dropping the picks to the end of the round. May change my mind in a year or two but for the long term, still believe it was the thing to do. Have a LOT of wholes to fill. LB should be #1 priority.
Funny, most years except the Mack/Carr year the pundits basically panned McKenzie's drafts and said they overreached. Gruden started trading and cutting them and suddenly and suddenly it was Gruden dumping all of McKenzie's wonderful pics. You knew he was gone eventually. Timing was strange. Figured it would be at the end of the season.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Hey Strider! Welcome to the Raider Booster Glass-Half-Full camp! Our membership numbers within this sub are the vast minority, but someone has to keep hope alive!
Agree with all points. I am not sure what we can attribute to Carr's recent productivity, as I don't notice any change in offensive approach or drastic deviations from regular game scripts. Nor do I understand why he couldn't show the same consistency early in the year/last year with arguably better players around him.
But good to see regardless.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Oh come on. Cooper and Mack were wonderful pics. The Raiders will not have another Mack in decades if ever again. Lets just hope they can find another Cooper. WR is another hole to fill on top of all the other holes that were already there. Add pass-rushing DE to the big needs list as well.
Never said Cooper and Mack were not great picks. If it was Five on Five we'd be in GREAT shape. But its eleven vs. eleven. So having studs doesn't always translate into wins. Harder to hide your weaknesses with eleven starters. Just said besides those two and a few more, McKenzie reached and/or missed on a lot of picks. And I agree - will probably never have another Mack, but under the circumstances the cost to keep him on a bad team just doesn't make sense provided the money saved fills some holes.
Find another Cooper? Heck - I'd rather find another Crabtree then Cooper. Which Cooper are you talking about. The dropsy Cooper from 2017? The three game wonder Cowboys Cooper? The early 2018 Raiders "coaches won't give me the ball' Cooper? Who exactly is Cooper anyway? He's like the hot & cold three point shooter. I can name many receivers not hot & cold and not #1 picks. - Smith-Schuster, Robert Woods, Diggs, Edelman, Keenan Allen. I can also name many #1 picks who are consistent in production - Jones, Green, Hopkins, Beckham. He's not in that class. Can he be sure. Media and Cowboy fans have him being the next Jerry Rice because of three great games in a row. I even heard one announcer say Cooper already has paid the Cowboys back for the number 1 pick and anything else from here on in is gravey on top. Really. Everyone likes to pile on Gruden and the Raiders right now because they are down and yeah, made some tough trades for fans and players alike. Hopefully making the tough moves in 2018 pays off going forward.
If not... I'll reserve some positive thoughts for the new coach and GM Ha Ha!
My biggest complaint is I miss Greg Papa. Musburger is terrible. And Lincoln Kennedy must say 'partner' once every few minutes or so. That's like two hundred freakin' partners a broadcast. I just... can't... take that...
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joey
Footballguy
I like this Strider guy. Welcome aboard.
For the record, though, I'm trying to become a FORMER Raiders fan, so please don't drop too much logic and hope on us, otherwise I might change my mind and sign up for another decade of torture.
Chaka
Footballguy
Cooper has had two amazing games out of the last three. Two stellar, phenomenal games.
He has been, at the very least been good in 5 of 6 games since joining the Cowboys mid season. One down game, and he joined the team in week 8.
I have no problem suggesting JDR and his staff were not very good at scheming or simply recognizing they may have had a better talent than they could utilize.
So where I land right now is Gruden is not as good as JDR or Garrett.
Think about that.
Ed Wood
Footballguy
As good a place as any to check back in.Chaka said:
* First, pumped about the Pittsburgh win and battling the Chiefs the entire game. Far from tanking, I'd say most of the team has little quit in them. Credit Gruden for that.
* On the other hand, Gruden comes off looking like a fool in the whole McKenzie mess. Nobody's buying it, Jon. Shoulda just said, "I want to build the team my way and there's no room for Reggie in the equation. We thank him for his efforts. Would that have been so hard?.
* And on Chaka's point above, Gruden said in the summer that Cooper was going to be the "centerpiece" of the offense. Yeah, right. At least JDR did a few things to get him going when he was in a funk (particularly I remember putting him in motion a lot--something I didn't see this year). Instead it's been "we had him open a few times but we chose not to go to him" for a number of weeks. Yech.
I think Gruden can still get guys to play for him (at least for awhile; seems like his is the type of act that would wear thin after a few seasons) but can he evaluate accurately and get the right guys in a Las Vegas, er, Oakland uniform? (I'm trying to block out his Tampa Bay drafts and his evaluations of Peterman and Connor Cook--yikes!!) He's got five golden opportunities to find the right players and will have a bunch of other opportunities besides. If he doesn't he has no one to blame but himself.
