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***OFFICIAL*** Washington Nationals ongoing thread (2 Viewers)

Denard's always been pretty fragile, as I recall. Rendon was drafted with injuries and question marks. When that oaf Casey Janssen jumped on his back last night I thought he was going to tear him in half.

 
JZilla said:
Denard's always been pretty fragile, as I recall. Rendon was drafted with injuries and question marks. When that oaf Casey Janssen jumped on his back last night I thought he was going to tear him in half.
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Yeah he was a concussion risk when they traded for him.

Taking risks on guys with spotty health histories is clearly part of the master plan. It results in a lot of frustration but on the whole it's worked out for them for more often than not- after all they've been I believe the second-most winning team in the game since the start of 2012. I certainly prefer the three years we got out of Span to Alex Meyer at this stage, Rendon and Giolito look like absolute steals even if Rendon only averages 120-ish games a year through his time with the Nats, etc.

BTW I went to a talk with Rizzo, Lerner and Boswell on Monday evening and Rizzo actually said that their next wave of data-driven analysis will be applying it to injuries- knowing who needs what rest or special treatment, how long to have guys rehab from various ailments, etc. So Marvelous, sounds like you'll get your wish.

 
That's about all she wrote, and now they're laughingstocks again thanks to the ridiculous Werth bobblehead that got recalled :lmao:

Let's bring back the Natinals jerseys this weekend

 
I saw a blurb that the Orioles put Darren O'Day on revocable waivers. If he clears, would the Nationals consider trading for him? How much would they give up?

 
40 days until the Caps start their season, 58 days until the Wizards start their season.

FWIW I haven't totally thrown in the towel. If the Nats somehow can avoid losing further ground over the next two days, they have a huge chance to make up ground over the following week. They play four at home while the Mets play three on the road in Miami (supposedly Giancarlo Stanton may be back) and then they get the three gamer at home vs the Mets with their rotation hopefully lined up. That stretch of 7 games is their big shot. Of course if they go into it 7.5 back it might not matter, but if they manage to stay 6.5 back going in I could definitely see them being 3 or 4 back by next Thursday.

Or at least I could see that if they have a competent manager. They don't, which is why I know exactly how many days are left until the Caps and Wizards start their seasons.

 
Going to be very difficult at best. If the Mets go just 16-15 in their remaining games the Nats would need to finish 23-9. Might be time to shut Sherzer down and save his arm for next season.

How bout dem Redskins!!!

 
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Swing 51 said:
Come on Tobias, I know you don't care for the team name but aren't you in football mode yet?

Captain Kirk time!!
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:lmao: I wish I could quit them, but I can't. I've given up trying. I'm already talking myself into a 7-9 campaign on the basis of a semi-decent defense. I hate myself.

 
I'll take 7-9!

Thinking 5 wins at the most. Before the Kirk announcement I was thinking Grudes would be gone by November. Now perhaps Dannyboy will give him some time.

 
TobiasFunke said:
40 days until the Caps start their season, 58 days until the Wizards start their season.

FWIW I haven't totally thrown in the towel. If the Nats somehow can avoid losing further ground over the next two days, they have a huge chance to make up ground over the following week. They play four at home while the Mets play three on the road in Miami (supposedly Giancarlo Stanton may be back) and then they get the three gamer at home vs the Mets with their rotation hopefully lined up. That stretch of 7 games is their big shot. Of course if they go into it 7.5 back it might not matter, but if they manage to stay 6.5 back going in I could definitely see them being 3 or 4 back by next Thursday.

Or at least I could see that if they have a competent manager. They don't, which is why I know exactly how many days are left until the Caps and Wizards start their seasons.
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I know there was some thought that maybe he had learned something after shuffling the rotation last week. Bullpen usage last night showed that he is still not up to the job. I hope that sealed his fate. Of course, they'll probably just replace him with some other early 2000s Arizona Diamondback like Jay Bell.

 
Don Quixote said:
TobiasFunke said:
40 days until the Caps start their season, 58 days until the Wizards start their season.

FWIW I haven't totally thrown in the towel. If the Nats somehow can avoid losing further ground over the next two days, they have a huge chance to make up ground over the following week. They play four at home while the Mets play three on the road in Miami (supposedly Giancarlo Stanton may be back) and then they get the three gamer at home vs the Mets with their rotation hopefully lined up. That stretch of 7 games is their big shot. Of course if they go into it 7.5 back it might not matter, but if they manage to stay 6.5 back going in I could definitely see them being 3 or 4 back by next Thursday.

Or at least I could see that if they have a competent manager. They don't, which is why I know exactly how many days are left until the Caps and Wizards start their seasons.
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I know there was some thought that maybe he had learned something after shuffling the rotation last week. Bullpen usage last night showed that he is still not up to the job. I hope that sealed his fate. Of course, they'll probably just replace him with some other early 2000s Arizona Diamondback like Jay Bell.
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Bullpen usage is terrible, but I also feel like he screws them with stuff like his unwillingness to make defensive replacements after the team takes the lead. I don't know if denDekker reaches either of the key hits to LF in the 7th but he might have had a shot. Werth had no shot.

 
Since Williams won't return next year and things are toast as it is, I'd like to see Knorr get a crack over the next month to see how he does and if he could be the full-time manager next year.

...Not all Williams' fault tonight though. How are we short of bullpen arms on the day of roster expansion?

 
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Don Quixote said:
Since Williams won't return next year and things are toast as it is, I'd like to see Knorr get a crack over the next month to see how he does and if he could be the full-time manager next year.

...Not all Williams' fault tonight though. How are we short of bullpen arms on the day of roster expansion?
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How does he put Janssen in the 9th a day after he threw about 300 pitches?

Is Williams really toast? He's rizzo's hand picked guy right?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Don Quixote said:
Since Williams won't return next year and things are toast as it is, I'd like to see Knorr get a crack over the next month to see how he does and if he could be the full-time manager next year.

...Not all Williams' fault tonight though. How are we short of bullpen arms on the day of roster expansion?
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How does he put Janssen in the 9th a day after he threw about 300 pitches?Is Williams really toast? He's rizzo's hand picked guy right?
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Yeah, I probably would have given Janssen a day of rest, and gone with Papelbon in the 9th, and Solis as needed for extras. Williams definitely gets some/a lot of blame.I also just find it weird though that we somehow had a bullpen shortage on Sept. 1.

The "toast" may be wishful thinking on my part. I don't see how any manager could survive a terrible year of managing like this.

 
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Don Quixote said:
Since Williams won't return next year and things are toast as it is, I'd like to see Knorr get a crack over the next month to see how he does and if he could be the full-time manager next year.

...Not all Williams' fault tonight though. How are we short of bullpen arms on the day of roster expansion?
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:goodposting: :goodposting: :goodposting:

Makes no sense. Still stupid of Williams not to use Papelbon, but he should never have been put in the position of having just two options for two roles (closer and 9th inning guy with Solis slated as the long extra inning guy). How does that happen on the day of roster expansion, with a 22 year old starter on the mound who is already well past his previous high for IP and Janssen coming off a 26 pitch outing?

 
Williams was on the Junkies this morning. He was a bit salty. They've become friendly with him so they didn't hit him super hard but asked him all these questions.

If you can find it online, you should listen.

 
dgreen said:
Williams was on the Junkies this morning. He was a bit salty. They've become friendly with him so they didn't hit him super hard but asked him all these questions.

If you can find it online, you should listen.
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I didn't listen, but I've seen everyone taking Williams to the woodshed on Twitter for his quote that he didn't use Papelbon because "he's our closer." Obviously, it's stupid, but I also didn't find it surprising/noteworthy. He's always been fairly rigid in his defined bullpen roles (such as his "7th inning guys" quote in the playoffs last year, and why he didn't use Storen/Papelbon against the Mets, among many other countless examples). I thought it was obvious to anyone who has watched the team that that was the reason that Williams did not use Papelbon. Again, a completely stupid reason, but that's always been his M.O.

 
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What kills me is they already knew the Mets lost, but they have Janssen out there taking his 49th pitch in the last 24 hours with two men on. Sorry, but that tells me you're not trying to win.

 
Don Quixote said:
dgreen said:
Williams was on the Junkies this morning. He was a bit salty. They've become friendly with him so they didn't hit him super hard but asked him all these questions.

If you can find it online, you should listen.
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I didn't listen, but I've seen everyone taking Williams to the woodshed on Twitter for his quote that he didn't use Papelbon because "he's our closer." Obviously, it's stupid, but I also didn't find it surprising/noteworthy. He's always been fairly rigid in his defined bullpen roles (such as his "7th inning guys" quote in the playoffs last year, and why he didn't use Storen/Papelbon against the Mets, among many other countless examples). I thought it was obvious to anyone who has watched the team that that was the reason that Williams did not use Papelbon. Again, a completely stupid reason, but that's always been his M.O.
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Yes, his answer was basically that Papelbon is the closer and it was a save situation. He then said something like, "If we use Papelbon there and he shuts him down, then who closes?" Um, someone else? How about actually getting yourself to a closing situation before worrying about who is closing? He was asked about Papelbon going two innings, but Williams said he had 7, 8, 9 due up in the 10th so whoever pitched the 9th wasn't going to pitch the 10th unless you double switch with Desmond.

They also discussed the short bull pen despite the expanded rosters. He mentioned that Roark isn't eligible to come back for a couple more days and AJ Cole is coming off a start and wouldn't have been eligible anyway.

 
dgreen said:
Don Quixote said:
dgreen said:
Williams was on the Junkies this morning. He was a bit salty. They've become friendly with him so they didn't hit him super hard but asked him all these questions.

If you can find it online, you should listen.
Click to expand...
I didn't listen, but I've seen everyone taking Williams to the woodshed on Twitter for his quote that he didn't use Papelbon because "he's our closer." Obviously, it's stupid, but I also didn't find it surprising/noteworthy. He's always been fairly rigid in his defined bullpen roles (such as his "7th inning guys" quote in the playoffs last year, and why he didn't use Storen/Papelbon against the Mets, among many other countless examples). I thought it was obvious to anyone who has watched the team that that was the reason that Williams did not use Papelbon. Again, a completely stupid reason, but that's always been his M.O.
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Yes, his answer was basically that Papelbon is the closer and it was a save situation. He then said something like, "If we use Papelbon there and he shuts him down, then who closes?" Um, someone else? How about actually getting yourself to a closing situation before worrying about who is closing? He was asked about Papelbon going two innings, but Williams said he had 7, 8, 9 due up in the 10th so whoever pitched the 9th wasn't going to pitch the 10th unless you double switch with Desmond.

They also discussed the short bull pen despite the expanded rosters. He mentioned that Roark isn't eligible to come back for a couple more days and AJ Cole is coming off a start and wouldn't have been eligible anyway.
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Well sure. God forbid you are forced to double-switch out the deepest position on the ballclub, Matt. Even after using Turner as a PR (which he was right to do but waited for an out to do it for some reason) he had multiple options available to switch out Desmond, including a straight swap for Espinosa or course or even moving Uggla to second, Escobar to SS and Rendon to 3B if he were so inclined.

As for the bullpen, did he mention De Los Santos, or Grace, or Hill?

 
I don't have any real problem with anything Williams has done in this Cards series. It's a better team, and our bullpen sucks. Everyone's just piling on now.

 
JZilla said:
I don't have any real problem with anything Williams has done in this Cards series. It's a better team, and our bullpen sucks. Everyone's just piling on now.
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Really?

Yeah, the bullpen sucks, but Papelbon is the least sucky reliever there. You have to use him with the game and maybe the season on the line. Svrluga lays out the case for it pretty clearly.

I'd be reluctantly OK with saving the closer in the middle of the season when you've got to balance things like his usage and his quest to accumulate saves with the immediate interests of the team. But not here. Not when you're down 6 games in early September, and have a chance to get a win in a place you haven't won since 2012, and your closer has thrown a total of 8 pitches since last Saturday.

 
I don't think it's that egregious.. when you're in a tie game late on the road, if you get a lead you're going to need a save.. I don't think it's that uncommon to hold your closer for that. If you can't count on your bullpen, which he can't, then sure you'll always be open to criticism. I definitely understand and I know he's out the door and he deserves it, but I don't think anything he's done with that pen these two games has been worth getting up in arms about. The pen just sucks.

 
JZilla said:
I don't think it's that egregious.. when you're in a tie game late on the road, if you get a lead you're going to need a save.. I don't think it's that uncommon to hold your closer for that. If you can't count on your bullpen, which he can't, then sure you'll always be open to criticism. I definitely understand and I know he's out the door and he deserves it, but I don't think anything he's done with that pen these two games has been worth getting up in arms about. The pen just sucks.
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Sure, it's not uncommon to hold your closer on the road even though it's not the best strategy for winning the game. But that's because most of the time you have to balance the decision that gives your team the best chance to win a single game with other factors like overworking him over the course of the season if you use him in every high-leverage situation, or feeding him saves to help him accumulate stats for arbitration or personal glory.

None of that stuff was in play here. Papelbon is at just 50 innings on the season. He didn't pitch Monday and threw only 8 pitches on Sunday afternoon. He's already got guaranteed money for next year and even if he didn't or he wants to chase Rivera, at this point in the season you're too desperate to worry about those concerns, especially with Janssen coming off a 26 pitch outing.

There's been other pretty obvious smaller mistakes too. His refusal to bring in a defensive replacement for Werth with late leads is inexplicable regardless of whether it's actually cost the Nats any runs, for example. Even his right moves are weird- yesterday he correctly used Turner to steal a base but for some reason he waited until there was one out to do it. If Turner had swiped that bag with no outs instead of one out, maybe he moves to third on the Taylor fly ball to center and Robinson brings him home. Boom, now you've got a three run cushion for Drew and presumably a one run head in the 9th and you're using Papelbon without question.

 
I couldn't blame him for waiting to replace Ramos on the base either, Ramos is their best hitting catcher and he's been en fuego. If Taylor reaches with no outs, it's all good, you're still fielding your best lineup.

These are the kinds of things you can certainly pick apart but like I said I wouldn't call any of it bad managing per se.

They weren't going to win that game no matter what, and they won't win tonight either.

 
TobiasFunke said:
40 days until the Caps start their season, 58 days until the Wizards start their season.

FWIW I haven't totally thrown in the towel. If the Nats somehow can avoid losing further ground over the next two days, they have a huge chance to make up ground over the following week. They play four at home while the Mets play three on the road in Miami (supposedly Giancarlo Stanton may be back) and then they get the three gamer at home vs the Mets with their rotation hopefully lined up. That stretch of 7 games is their big shot. Of course if they go into it 7.5 back it might not matter, but if they manage to stay 6.5 back going in I could definitely see them being 3 or 4 back by next Thursday.

Or at least I could see that if they have a competent manager. They don't, which is why I know exactly how many days are left until the Caps and Wizards start their seasons.
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My path to the division remains intact thanks to Zim and Darin Ruf. Now it's time for the big move. Pitching is in rough shape but at least the bats are hot and the Braves' offense sucks.

 
:lmao: at Harper's comments about fans leaving in the 7th. Can't wait for Tobias to defend them, although in a non 18 inning game that wasn't in October, I'm sure there is some sort of excuse.

:ptts:

ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports. :lmao:

 
Doctor Detroit said:
:lmao: at Harper's comments about fans leaving in the 7th. Can't wait for Tobias to defend them, although in a non 18 inning game that wasn't in October, I'm sure there is some sort of excuse.

:ptts:

ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports. :lmao:
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I was at the game Friday night and surprised by the number of empty seats (game of the year by the way). They draw very well in summer, especially on weekends, but when school starts everything changes, including people leaving early.

This team as been very difficult to watch this year. Lots of expectations and very few instances of anyone manning-up. How many times have I seen them take a lead or score a couple runs and then one of these "fragile orchid" starters or relievers give up a few runs in the very next inning. Even the offense rarely punches back--lots of 3 up 3 down right after they give up runs. I guess that is not exactly sabermetric analysis but someone needs to show some grit. There's just something missing.

 
tdog said:
Doctor Detroit said:
:lmao: at Harper's comments about fans leaving in the 7th. Can't wait for Tobias to defend them, although in a non 18 inning game that wasn't in October, I'm sure there is some sort of excuse.

:ptts:

ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports. :lmao:
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Even the offense rarely punches back--lots of 3 up 3 down right after they give up runs.
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Pretty disappointing yesterday. Had all of the momentum after Ramos hit that slam and then poof, its gone!

 
I am glad that Harper said the stuff about the fans. I mean seriously are we the only fan base that complains about games because it is too cold or too hot. If this game was tonight or was a weekend game that is still going on at midnight then maybe you have a gripe given how awful the traffic/metro situation is. but no excuse for not being there given this is maybe the most important regular season series in Nationals history.

It is funny how National fans are ready to jump on and off the train so quickly and yet Redskin fan will be talking Super Bowl no matter how awful the team is.

 
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