Swing 51
Footballguy
People say they hear this from fans every year. How come I never hear them say it? And I'm speaking of real "fans" here.
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***OFFICIAL*** Washington Nationals ongoing thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JZilla
- Start date
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Again had a chance to put two more on the board in bottom of sixth and Williams let's Scherzer hit with two outs. Scherzer wasn't pitching well and already at 90 something pitches. Predictively the top of the goes badly.Pretty disappointing yesterday. Had all of the momentum after Ramos hit that slam and then poof, its gone!Even the offense rarely punches back--lots of 3 up 3 down right after they give up runs.at Harper's comments about fans leaving in the 7th. Can't wait for Tobias to defend them, although in a non 18 inning game that wasn't in October, I'm sure there is some sort of excuse.
ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports.
JZilla
Footballguy
Team is full of orchids, head cases and "me first" guys. What's missing is team energy. But it's the downright terribleness of the bullpen that makes people turn it off(guilty)/walk out after they go down late in a game.I was at the game Friday night and surprised by the number of empty seats (game of the year by the way). They draw very well in summer, especially on weekends, but when school starts everything changes, including people leaving early.
ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports.
This team as been very difficult to watch this year. Lots of expectations and very few instances of anyone manning-up. How many times have I seen them take a lead or score a couple runs and then one of these "fragile orchid" starters or relievers give up a few runs in the very next inning. Even the offense rarely punches back--lots of 3 up 3 down right after they give up runs. I guess that is not exactly sabermetric analysis but someone needs to show some grit. There's just something missing.
What'd they have, 4 straight different relievers face four different guys in the seventh, all those stops in the action, slowly choking it away as usual in the glaring heat and humidity? Brutal is the right word for a lot of things about this team, starting with the manager and pen. If I was there with kids or a fussy woman, I would have left too.
Paying customers have a right to leave whenever they want. This team's lucky to have as full a house as they do most of the time, considering what they've won which is nothing of significance. If they could beat somebody besides the worst teams in baseball right now, maybe more fans would be into it. The players can choose how to react to a mass fan exodus like this, and I'm certainly not surprised to see these particular players react by whining.
Win the game, then you can say F-you to the people who left. Roll over and die like you do against every .500+ team since the games started to matter, then I guess you can whine to the press and go F yourself.
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Don Quixote
Footballguy
I would have liked to have seen Scherzer get pinch hit for (that was bottom of fifth, not sixth), but we also don't really have a reliable pitcher to put in in that situation. Scherzer gave up one in the sixth (not great), but, as soon as he was pulled, they go through four different pitchers and give up three in the 7th (even worse). I'm generally all for laying into Williams, but it was basically a no-win situation whatever he did there.Again had a chance to put two more on the board in bottom of sixth and Williams let's Scherzer hit with two outs. Scherzer wasn't pitching well and already at 90 something pitches. Predictively the top of the goes badly.Pretty disappointing yesterday. Had all of the momentum after Ramos hit that slam and then poof, its gone!Even the offense rarely punches back--lots of 3 up 3 down right after they give up runs.
ESPN radio killing Nats fans, among the worst in all of sports.
I want Storen to succeed so bad but he is finished as a pitcher. You can see with every single pitch the confidence draining.
Williams should have pulled him 3 batters ago but no idea with who. I heard Ross is going to the bullpen so maybe there is hope there
Williams should have pulled him 3 batters ago but no idea with who. I heard Ross is going to the bullpen so maybe there is hope there
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Holy crap he's bunting Anthony Rendon in the 9th not only taking the bat out of his hands but if it's successful taking the bat out of Bryce Harper's hands too. Unreal
Don Quixote
Footballguy
WTF was that?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
You just can't blow a 7-1 lead in a game with this importance. So frustrating.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Can Williams go tonight and let Knight manage the last four weeks?
Don Quixote
Footballguy
I don't blame Williams too much for middle relief doing its usual sucking, but bunting with Rendon (and keeping it on on a 3-1 count) with Harper on deck is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a manager do.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Williams seemed to blame Rendon in his press conference for hitting it too hard. I feel like Williams could use a physics lesson.
I don't know if I agree with Rendon bunting is a terrible idea. Playoff baseball (which last night was) is based on getting a run any way possible and most of the time it is based on moving runners over in scoring position at the expense of an out. Happens all of the time with no outs (think there was no outs). Now maybe you pinch hit for someone that can actually bunt well.
If this season like it pretty much looks like it will be, I put about 80% of the blame on Rizzo then Williams. You knew that the bullpen was going to be rough and while they did something with the 9th inning he completely ignored the 6th to 8th innings. Papelbon is a useless pick up because they are cooked before he gets out there.
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Don Quixote
Footballguy
1) It was going to be extraordinarily difficult for anyone to successfully bunt a 98 mph fastball.
2) 3-1 is a hitter's count, and you have your #2 hitter at the plate. Maybe he works a walk, and we have first and second and no outs, or gets a good pitch to hit.
3) Even if the bunt is successful, all you do is open first, and they'll walk Harper, which they did anyway.
4) We needed two runs there, because our bullpen was in no position to go extras.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Who cares? Mystics are in the playoffs!!!!!!!!
I think we can conclude the trade for Papalbon has been bad. Storen imploded, which should not be too surprising. I am still surprised the Nats did not go after Clippard and possibly another reliever.
JZilla
Footballguy
They should have obviously known Storen couldn't handle it, which is stupid, but yeah.. running a successful organization involves dealing with people and their feelings. The numbers are the easy part.
Ideally you would have the 8th and 9th locked down with those two and the pen would probably not be in shambles.
I didn't hate the move at the time so I can't ##### about it now.
Waive Storen, bring Ross right into the 8th and see what happens.
Ideally you would have the 8th and 9th locked down with those two and the pen would probably not be in shambles.
I didn't hate the move at the time so I can't ##### about it now.
Waive Storen, bring Ross right into the 8th and see what happens.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
DG was right, most of the two hours I spent monitoring local sportstalk was concentrated on the Redskins :X but they were talking some Nats. One guy called in saying Rizzo should be fired because he traded away Clippard and got Trea Turner when the goal was to win this year. Sigh. So many people mention Clippard as the reason for their 
season. He pitches 65 innnings a year one inning at a time! He's not that ####### important!
This team is well built it just has had a bunch of really impactful injuries (especially losing Rendon for most of the year), under-performing starting pitching, and a pretty bad bullpen. I follow the Tigers and Nats and I think Ausmus is a better manager than Williams, and I don't think Ausmus is very good. I think both franchises miscalculated in hiring managers with no experience, going from Jimmy and Davy to Brad and Matt probably were bad ideas.
I actually think Ausmus will be a good manager someday under different circumstances, Williams I'm not so sure about. Seems like he creates tension with this generation of players because he's a all out, dive even if you don't have to dive guy.
Overall the franchise is in terrific shape though. Scherzer, Ross, Stasburg, Roark, Giolitio, Lopez, and Gio is a lot of organizational depth at starter. You have Rendon, Turner, Difo, Escobar, Ramos and Espinosa with Harper and Taylor in the OF. They'll need a right-handed LF/1B bat because Werth looks like a platoon guy going forward (and he can never stay healthy anyway) and a veteran starter wouldn't hurt. Not sure about RZimm, I really don't have the love for him that others do.
Bullpens are weird animals, they can be great one year and horrible the next. Take a look at any five years of bullpen data and you'll see what I mean. I think they have most of the arms they need in the organization already, and this could be a top five unit next year. I wouldn't trade Storen unless I got something pretty good back, and I wouldn't go crazy spending a ton of money to try and patch something up that probably isn't as broken as we think.
season. He pitches 65 innnings a year one inning at a time! He's not that ####### important!This team is well built it just has had a bunch of really impactful injuries (especially losing Rendon for most of the year), under-performing starting pitching, and a pretty bad bullpen. I follow the Tigers and Nats and I think Ausmus is a better manager than Williams, and I don't think Ausmus is very good. I think both franchises miscalculated in hiring managers with no experience, going from Jimmy and Davy to Brad and Matt probably were bad ideas.
I actually think Ausmus will be a good manager someday under different circumstances, Williams I'm not so sure about. Seems like he creates tension with this generation of players because he's a all out, dive even if you don't have to dive guy.
Overall the franchise is in terrific shape though. Scherzer, Ross, Stasburg, Roark, Giolitio, Lopez, and Gio is a lot of organizational depth at starter. You have Rendon, Turner, Difo, Escobar, Ramos and Espinosa with Harper and Taylor in the OF. They'll need a right-handed LF/1B bat because Werth looks like a platoon guy going forward (and he can never stay healthy anyway) and a veteran starter wouldn't hurt. Not sure about RZimm, I really don't have the love for him that others do.
Bullpens are weird animals, they can be great one year and horrible the next. Take a look at any five years of bullpen data and you'll see what I mean. I think they have most of the arms they need in the organization already, and this could be a top five unit next year. I wouldn't trade Storen unless I got something pretty good back, and I wouldn't go crazy spending a ton of money to try and patch something up that probably isn't as broken as we think.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Williams trying to lose on purpose, right? What's any other explanation?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
It was Clippard for Escobar and not Turner anyway. Turner and Joe Ross came over in the Souza trade.Yeah,
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Did the caller really say Clippard for Turner? I hope he was corrected that we got Escobar for Clippard, who has been a pretty important piece this year.
..Of all of the injuries this year, I think Stammen's has gone relatively unmentioned a bit too much. Bullpen would be a lot different if Stammen was around to pitch the 7th.
..Of all of the injuries this year, I think Stammen's has gone relatively unmentioned a bit too much. Bullpen would be a lot different if Stammen was around to pitch the 7th.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Yeah he was corrected, and yes...he really said that. The radio staff pointed out they also got Ross back, but the caller was on a roll having just watched film of the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Old Hoss Radbourn @OldHossRadbourn 2m2 minutes ago
Washington, DC is a cesspool and this is its penance.
Washington, DC is a cesspool and this is its penance.
If we are going to go nuts on DC sports controversies (See Gruden trying to get RG3 injured), how about the idea that Williams is trying to putting the final nail in Storen's career by throwing him out there tonight. I mean the guy is a complete basket case with no confidence. The damn Mets crowd at the game were chanting "We Want Storen". So of course you choose him.
I have no issue with pulling Strasburg as it looked like it was the end after that homer. But to choose Storen is almost fireable it was so dumb
The season is over now so it is all a moot point. The chances of the Mets choking is about 3%
I have no issue with pulling Strasburg as it looked like it was the end after that homer. But to choose Storen is almost fireable it was so dumb
The season is over now so it is all a moot point. The chances of the Mets choking is about 3%
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The biggest issue for the Nats is the whole bullpen has imploded simultaneously. The reason they keep using Storen in the 8th inning is no one is pitching any better. Even Papalbon has given up a run in each of his last two outings.
Bullpens are funny animals. For the most part, it is cobbling together a bunch of pitchers who failed as starters and getting them to be effective one inning, sometimes one batter at a time. This is clearly Matt Williams biggest failure and he has shown no progress as the year went on.
The other big item: the Nats play their worst baseball in the most important games. A manager needs to keep the team loose, yet focused. I think Williams is wound up so tight, the whole team plays tight. The same thing happened with Davey Johnson in 2013. Once they were effectively eliminated, the team started winning.
Bullpens are funny animals. For the most part, it is cobbling together a bunch of pitchers who failed as starters and getting them to be effective one inning, sometimes one batter at a time. This is clearly Matt Williams biggest failure and he has shown no progress as the year went on.
The other big item: the Nats play their worst baseball in the most important games. A manager needs to keep the team loose, yet focused. I think Williams is wound up so tight, the whole team plays tight. The same thing happened with Davey Johnson in 2013. Once they were effectively eliminated, the team started winning.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Great great post here. Nats are a mess this season, disappointing in almost every way (Harper having a historic season makes it even more painful) but they're in good shape going forward, no overhaul necessary. Sometimes a bullpen comes together, sometimes it doesn't, and every year is totally different. If you'd told Mets fans in April that they'd lose Mejia and Blevins for effectively the whole season they would have assumed total disaster. If we don't lose Stammen and Barrett maybe our bullpen looks totally different. Learn from the mistakes made, confront some uncomfortable realities about front office favorites and find a better in-game manager and a bat to supplement or even replace Werth at the corner OF spot, tinker with the pen, and hope the ball bounces your way next year.DG was right, most of the two hours I spent monitoring local sportstalk was concentrated on the Redskins :X but they were talking some Nats. One guy called in saying Rizzo should be fired because he traded away Clippard and got Trea Turner when the goal was to win this year. Sigh. So many people mention Clippard as the reason for their
This team is well built it just has had a bunch of really impactful injuries (especially losing Rendon for most of the year), under-performing starting pitching, and a pretty bad bullpen. I follow the Tigers and Nats and I think Ausmus is a better manager than Williams, and I don't think Ausmus is very good. I think both franchises miscalculated in hiring managers with no experience, going from Jimmy and Davy to Brad and Matt probably were bad ideas.
I actually think Ausmus will be a good manager someday under different circumstances, Williams I'm not so sure about. Seems like he creates tension with this generation of players because he's a all out, dive even if you don't have to dive guy.
Overall the franchise is in terrific shape though. Scherzer, Ross, Stasburg, Roark, Giolitio, Lopez, and Gio is a lot of organizational depth at starter. You have Rendon, Turner, Difo, Escobar, Ramos and Espinosa with Harper and Taylor in the OF. They'll need a right-handed LF/1B bat because Werth looks like a platoon guy going forward (and he can never stay healthy anyway) and a veteran starter wouldn't hurt. Not sure about RZimm, I really don't have the love for him that others do.
Bullpens are weird animals, they can be great one year and horrible the next. Take a look at any five years of bullpen data and you'll see what I mean. I think they have most of the arms they need in the organization already, and this could be a top five unit next year. I wouldn't trade Storen unless I got something pretty good back, and I wouldn't go crazy spending a ton of money to try and patch something up that probably isn't as broken as we think.
A quick note about next season: Jayson Werth and Ryan Zimmerman are not going anywhere. They will be full time starters.
Werth is owed $42M for the next two years. Zimmerman's contract is for $60M over the next 4 years, with a $2M buyout of the 2020 season.
No one will trade for them. So barring injury, you can count on Werth in LF and Zimmerman at 1B.
Werth is owed $42M for the next two years. Zimmerman's contract is for $60M over the next 4 years, with a $2M buyout of the 2020 season.
No one will trade for them. So barring injury, you can count on Werth in LF and Zimmerman at 1B.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Sure you are stuck with them but that doesn't mean one or both can't be less dependent upon.Bring in a left handed LF/1b guy and you reduce your risk. Werth is nothing more than a platoon player now anyway, and he cant stay on the field more than two weeks at a time.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yup. There's plenty of examples of guys taking on reduced roles at the end of a big free agency deal. Aaron Rowand was the highest-paid position player on the 2010 Giants team that won the World Series. Shane Victorino was the highest paid position player on the 2013 Sox (although he had a decent bounceback year). It's easy to work around a deal like Werth's for a year or two if they go totally crazy and sign an Upton level star to play LF, or they can just sign someone like Gerardo Parra to take a start a two a week from Werth and be his defensive replacement and fill in for him adequately when the inevitable injury strikes.
I'm less concerned about Zimmerman, who is still an great hitter when healthy, as we saw post-ASB this year. His numbers weren't a fluke, he was at or near the league lead in hardest-hit balls off the bat during July and August. They can just re-sign Robinson for depth and the occasional platoon to let Zim rest his plantar fasciitis, hope for maybe 120 games or so from him, and I think they'll be fine at 1B.
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Next years lineup (not batting order)
Ramos
Zimmerman
Escobar
Rendon
Turner
Werth
Harper
Taylor
Bench;
Clint
Lobaton or another C
Espinosa
Some OF (den Dekker or mclouth)?
????
Rotation
Scherzer
Strasburg
Gio
Ross
Roark
Pen
Papelbon
Treinen
Rivera
Stammen
??? Who else returns?
Go after any FA this winter? What position?
Ramos
Zimmerman
Escobar
Rendon
Turner
Werth
Harper
Taylor
Bench;
Clint
Lobaton or another C
Espinosa
Some OF (den Dekker or mclouth)?
????
Rotation
Scherzer
Strasburg
Gio
Ross
Roark
Pen
Papelbon
Treinen
Rivera
Stammen
??? Who else returns?
Go after any FA this winter? What position?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I assume Giolito will be in the mix for the rotation- if not at the start of the season then probably soon after, assuming he starts well at AA or AAA. When all is said and done he could end up being an upgrade from Zimmermann; I don't think that would surprise anyone.
As Dr D said I suspect they'll go after an OF in free agency to supplement/replace Werth. The only impact OF prospect in their system in the OF is Robles (who is 18) so they're gonna need someone to cover both Werth's decline and a season or two after he leaves. Would make a lot of sense to spend now, with all the money coming off the books from the free agents and 2016 possibly being Strasburg's last year in DC.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Both Giolito and Lopez will likely get looks next year, if not right out of the gate. I hate Gio more than any other Nats player but when's he's right he's a middle of the rotation guy. Giolito is gonna be on an innings limit too, 117 innings this year and 96 last year. So you are looking at 150 or so innings which I'm sure they will carefully manage.
I can also see AJ Cole competing for a rotation spot as I am less sold on writing Roark's name down in ink into the rotation. But starting pitching overall should not be a big concern, you know...besides health.
Agree that they need some better bench players, I think Difo makes the team.
I can also see AJ Cole competing for a rotation spot as I am less sold on writing Roark's name down in ink into the rotation. But starting pitching overall should not be a big concern, you know...besides health.
Agree that they need some better bench players, I think Difo makes the team.
MattFancy
Footballguy
To be fair, the Skins haven't been the same since he leftYeah,
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Can we get Trae Turner some ABs now that we have folded and aren't playing for anything?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I was gonna post this same thing. Might as well get him a few weeks worth of at bats.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I agree. I assume they feel like they owe it to Desmond to give him as many opportunities as possible to add to/improve his numbers. And I'm OK with that, the "take care of our guys" attitude is one of the things I like about this organization. But they can put Turner at 2B and Rendon at 3B every other day or something. Even if he's not playing SS at least get him the ABs at this level.
