One generation of progressive leadership to plunge Venezuela into civil war (1 Viewer)

[chet]

Venezuela elected a socialist president in 2001 and the country plunged into civil war less than 20 years later. When will the far left progressives realize that socialism only results in death and misery for the citizens of the country? An absolute travesty.

click here for a timeline

 

[The Z Machine]

While there is a humanitarian catastrophe in Venezuela, it's hardly a civil war. No doubt their economy has been wrecked and they have had a massive brain and labor drain there. Many misguided economic policies.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Venezuela elected a socialist president in 2001

Chet, how do you think conditions in Venezuela in 1998, when Chavez won a landslide election, contributed to his coming to power?

Also curious about how you think the US-backed coup against Chavez in 2002 might have influenced later events?

 

[jon_mx]

Upon learning the fact that when Chávez left office, the inflation rate was at 29.4%, Biden's white house staff broke out loudly singing a chorus of, "Woah, we're half way there! Woah, livin' on a prayer!"

 

[moleculo]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

 

[timschochet]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

Of course there are. The example of Sweden alone indicates that socialism can last for decades without death or misery. I am not arguing here that socialism was best for Sweden or any other country; only pointing out that it doesn’t necessarily result in instability.

Venezuela is a country, like so much of this planet, in which the majority of the public have lived in extreme poverty, in which education, chances of economic advancement, and a secure middle class has always been lacking, and in which whatever wealth there is has always been controlled by a tiny minority backed by corporations from other countries (including, until very recently, the USA). I suggest that these factors are much more important than political ideology to causing instability and violence to occur.

 

[msudaisy26]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

 

[chet]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

No. Cuba. USSR. Cambodia. North Korea. China. Hundreds of millions dead from socialist regimes in the 20th century and there are still people who think it's a viable alternative to capitalism.

 

[The General]

I am anti-civil wars.

 

[timschochet]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

I certainly don’t agree with this. A dictatorship of any form is a bad form of government.

 

[moleculo]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

No. Cuba. USSR. Cambodia. North Korea. China. Hundreds of millions dead from socialist regimes in the 20th century and there are still people who think it's a viable alternative to capitalism.

What do you consider the Nordic countries?

 

[msudaisy26]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

I certainly don’t agree with this. A dictatorship of any form is a bad form of government.

Not if that dictator was a benevolent leader.

 

[Rich Conway]

What do you consider the Nordic countries?

Probably not Scotsmen.

 

[timschochet]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

I certainly don’t agree with this. A dictatorship of any form is a bad form of government.

Not if that dictator was a benevolent leader.

Interesting. I challenge you to produce a historical example.

 

[moleculo]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

I certainly don’t agree with this. A dictatorship of any form is a bad form of government.

Not if that dictator was a benevolent leader.

Interesting. I challenge you to produce a historical example.

Singapore?

 

[msudaisy26]

Interesting. I challenge you to produce a historical example

Without looking into too much, (I am not the history buff you are and the word leader would have to be defined.) Jesus.

Too be honest there are probably a lot of examples of people that would have been tremendous leaders that never got the chance. I will also concede this works better in theory than actually trying to find that person.

I am a person that would rather try, fail and go backwards a little, then keep the status quo and not go for upside.

Just thought of another. I think Bernie Sanders would be a dictator that a country could thrive under.

 

[tymarsas]

Not if that dictator was a benevolent leader.

Even if there was a benevolent leader, the problem is they eventually the die and get replaced by someone else (likely not as benevolent). I also doubt there are many people that can hold absolute power and not be corrupted by it. It's theoretical. It doesn't exist in the real world.

 

[Shula-holic]

Interesting. I challenge you to produce a historical example

Without looking into too much, (I am not the history buff you are and the word leader would have to be defined.) Jesus.

Too be honest there are probably a lot of examples of people that would have been tremendous leaders that never got the chance. I will also concede this works better in theory than actually trying to find that person.

I am a person that would rather try, fail and go backwards a little, then keep the status quo and not go for upside.

Just thought of another. I think Bernie Sanders would be a dictator that a country could thrive under.

(sorry, sometimes an emoji is the best way to capture a feeling)

 

[BladeRunner]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

No. Cuba. USSR. Cambodia. North Korea. China. Hundreds of millions dead from socialist regimes in the 20th century and there are still people who think it's a viable alternative to capitalism.

What do you consider the Nordic countries?

Ahh, of course. The old "Nordic Countries" standard response when talking about socialism. I got some bad news for you: Those Nordic countries will be the first to tell you they aren't Socialist.

IIRC, they tried it back in 70's or 80's or 90's and dropped it faster than the truth at a DNC convention.

 

[HellToupee]

I think Bernie Sanders would be a dictator that a country could thrive under.

Let’s just take a mulligan and move on

 

[Amused to Death]

socialism only results in death and misery

Are there other examples of socialism that did not result in death and misery?

Just checking the logic here.

No. Cuba. USSR. Cambodia. North Korea. China. Hundreds of millions dead from socialist regimes in the 20th century and there are still people who think it's a viable alternative to capitalism.

What do you consider the Nordic countries?

Ahh, of course. The old "Nordic Countries" standard response when talking about socialism. I got some bad news for you: Those Nordic countries will be the first to tell you they aren't Socialist.

IIRC, they tried it back in 70's or 80's or 90's and dropped it faster than the truth at a DNC convention.

Do they still have taxpayer funded healthcare?

 

[The Z Machine]

No, the Nordic countries are not socialist as conceived of by Marx. However if some of the policies in place there were propsed for the US, you know what the first word out of many mouths would be.

High taxes, generous social safety net, universal health care and pensions...

 

[Shula-holic]

No, the Nordic countries are not socialist as conceived of by Marx. However if some of the policies in place there were propsed for the US, you know what the first word out of many mouths would be.

High taxes, generous social safety net, universal health care and pensions...

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Taxes in Sweden

Here's your quick guide to taxes in Sweden, summarised in five pointers. Individual tax rates, corporate taxes and VAT are three of them!

sweden.se

 

[moleculo]

No, the Nordic countries are not socialist as conceived of by Marx. However if some of the policies in place there were propsed for the US, you know what the first word out of many mouths would be.

High taxes, generous social safety net, universal health care and pensions...

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Taxes in Sweden

Here's your quick guide to taxes in Sweden, summarised in five pointers. Individual tax rates, corporate taxes and VAT are three of them!

sweden.se

Does that mean I don't have to pay for health insurance any more? And, don't have super high deductibles?

 

[Shula-holic]

No, the Nordic countries are not socialist as conceived of by Marx. However if some of the policies in place there were propsed for the US, you know what the first word out of many mouths would be.

High taxes, generous social safety net, universal health care and pensions...

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Taxes in Sweden

Here's your quick guide to taxes in Sweden, summarised in five pointers. Individual tax rates, corporate taxes and VAT are three of them!

sweden.se

Does that mean I don't have to pay for health insurance any more? And, don't have super high deductibles?

You're gonna pay, one way or the other. It's just a matter of who you're paying.

 

[msudaisy26]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad form of government. Any style can work and flourish. It is the people running the government and the way they abuse it that cause the problems.

Congrats on posting the dumbest thing I have ever read on these forums ever.

Thanks. I am glad I made your Labor Day.

 

[Rich Conway]

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Sign me up.

Welcome

...

fairtax.org

 

[The Z Machine]

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Taxes in Sweden

Here's your quick guide to taxes in Sweden, summarised in five pointers. Individual tax rates, corporate taxes and VAT are three of them!

sweden.se

Yes, those taxes are much higher than in the US, and as a mid-career professional, i would be significantly impacted. But yes, I think I would trade that tax system + social welfare for everyone vs the system we have here in the US.

 

[Shula-holic]

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Sign me up.

Welcome

...

fairtax.org

You and I will not only be in the ground but long decomposed before our tax code is dismantled in such a way. I'm all for a flat tax/fair tax proposal and changing the code, but the only people even remotely serious about it aren't the people you'd want in charge of it.

 

[Shula-holic]

To be fair, are you willing to implement their tax system to get there? Think long and hard about the VAT and who pays it.

Taxes in Sweden

Here's your quick guide to taxes in Sweden, summarised in five pointers. Individual tax rates, corporate taxes and VAT are three of them!

sweden.se

Yes, those taxes are much higher than in the US, and as a mid-career professional, i would be significantly impacted. But yes, I think I would trade that tax system + social welfare for everyone vs the system we have here in the US.

I don't feel the same way but fair enough. At least you feel that way knowing that it would never be a tax the rich thing. It doesn't and couldn't work that way in order to keep their economy going.