Patriots being investigated after Colts game (5 Viewers)

[Anarchy99]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

I am still waiting to hear what Kraft's great options were to continue to fight the TEAM penalties. Unlike players, teams don't have great options to appeal and they can't go to arbitration. And as far as going to court, they would have to prove all of the following: intent, malice, and that the league broke the law by doing what they did to NE. From every legal expert I have seen, Kraft had no chance of winning. Zero. None. But he could have shelled out $25 million to try . . . and would still have lost.

So on that list of things to prove . . .

Did the league intentionally go out of their way to harm the Patriots above and beyond the processes and procedures within the NFL bylaws (I would say no)?

Did the league maliciously do what they did and purposely try to embarrass or defame the Patriots and intentionally falsify information or lie (I would say no)?

Did the league break the laws either criminally or within the scope of accepted business practices (I would say no)?

So please explain where this great case was and clear cut legal battle was that would get the Patriots draft picks back and fines eliminated?

So your argument for the Pats not admitting their guilt is to say the league did nothing wrong? If they did nothing wrong, then isn't it inherently all considered to be right, meaning they were guilty?

No. All I am suggesting is that the league followed its own procedures and protocols and did not break any laws. If the process was flawed, if the Wells report was shoddy, if the penalties were too harsh, etc. does not fall under the review or purview of a court.

A court would look at this case and see if the NFL followed there own procedures and bylaws, if their practices complied with appropriate labor and business laws, and whether there were any other criminal violations. If there were no process abnormalities or laws broken, they would not side with the Patriots . . . regardless if the report had inconsistencies, whether the penalties were the harshest in league history, and whether the league could care less about football inflation levels.

So again, just because the Patriots as a team could not mount a challenge is not the same as them admitting guilt. And for the record, I am not saying they didn't do anything, all I am pointing out is that the Patriots had essentially no opportunity to fight this. The only way they could have gotten any relief was if they continued on with their appeal and convinced Goodell that the Wells report was wrong and the $10 million investigation got it wrong (which was never going to happen). The only other option was suing the league, and they would had difficulty even coming up with a compelling legal argument to have their case heard all the way through.

 

[Anarchy99]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....

We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

I disagree with your assessment, but I guess that is subject to interpretation. I suspect Kraft went to his legal team and expert group of attorneys and they told him he had no recourse. I also think he went to Goodell and asked him if there was a way he would reconsider the penalties and Goodell said no. I don't take that as Kraft suddenly admitting guilt. To be clear, that doesn't mean that they are innocent, all it means is that Kraft had no way to fight the outcome.

If they really wanted to admit guilt then they would have admitted it. At any point they could have said on further review the equipment guys were doing some things they shouldn't have been (not defined) and they will make sure it never happens again. It would have been quick and easy . . . but they never went there.

IMO, Kraft saw no light the end of the tunnel and had no desire to ride this out for months only to lose and opted to just quit arguing about it.

 

[Old Smiley]

Just in terms of dollars, I'm thinking it would have cost, like, four times the fine to fight the fine.

ETA: Plus it's really hard to prove anything in this (despite all the armchair scientists and statisticians) and you've got to disprove a case that's already been made, however shoddily.

 

[skinsrule05]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

I disagree with your assessment, but I guess that is subject to interpretation. I suspect Kraft went to his legal team and expert group of attorneys and they told him he had no recourse. I also think he went to Goodell and asked him if there was a way he would reconsider the penalties and Goodell said no. I don't take that as Kraft suddenly admitting guilt. To be clear, that doesn't mean that they are innocent, all it means is that Kraft had no way to fight the outcome.If they really wanted to admit guilt then they would have admitted it. At any point they could have said on further review the equipment guys were doing some things they shouldn't have been (not defined) and they will make sure it never happens again. It would have been quick and easy . . . but they never went there.

IMO, Kraft saw no light the end of the tunnel and had no desire to ride this out for months only to lose and opted to just quit arguing about it.

There is no way they could have admitted guilt. That would be admitting that your golden boy QB is guilty. I know pats fans are not willing to admit it but the rest of the country knows, there is no way the equipment guys would have risked breaking NFL rules and lose there job all to modify a football unless their QB ordered it.

I agree if Kraft could have admitted guilt and just thrown a couple equipment guys under the bus he would have done it. But it wasn't possible to stop it there.

 

[Workhorse]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....

We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

What's funny is how many times you typed the words "Pats fans" in your response.

 

[davearm]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....

We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

Kraft saying "we're not going to fight this any longer" is not admitting guilt. In fact I am convinced he hasn't wavered at all in his belief, as you described it: this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent.

What Kraft has no choice but to accept is this: there is no appeal process available, there is no opportunity for arbitration, and any lawsuit would be totally frivolous.

He may want to fight, but there's noplace to go to fight.

 

[General Tso]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

Kraft saying "we're not going to fight this any longer" is not admitting guilt. In fact I am convinced he hasn't wavered at all in his belief, as you described it: this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent.

What Kraft has no choice but to accept is this: there is no appeal process available, there is no opportunity for arbitration, and any lawsuit would be totally frivolous.

He may want to fight, but there's noplace to go to fight.

He may not have any legal recourse (even that is a bit spurious in my opinion - he could always sue the NFL, it's just unlikely he would win) but he could still have done a lot more than accept his fate like he did. He could have continued to do what the Pats were doing up until that point - fighting it in the court of public opinion. But he decided to bail on that. And the are three possible reasons he did that:1. He's greedy. "One of the 32", making billions of dollars, and that in the end trumps all else.

2. He's a coward. It's not in his nature to fight. He's a bridge builder, not a bridge destroyer.

3. He knows the team is guilty.

Kraft couldn't have handled this more poorly. He came out fighting, energized his fan base to think the Pats really were innocent, fought some more after the report came out, and then at a meeting with "the group of 32" he suddenly pulls the plug and throws the team and Brady's legacy to the wolves.

If the Pats really are innocent, then what Kraft did here is beyond reprehensible. There are some things you fight to the bitter end, and legacy of your team and its star quarterback are on that list.

If the Pats are guilty, then Kraft got duped by his own people and has shown himself to be a fool as a businessman.

Either way, I'm done with this clown. He screwed Hartford in the late 90's and used us to leverage a better situation in Foxboro. I should have known then what a lech he was.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....

We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.

Kraft saying "we're not going to fight this any longer" is not admitting guilt. In fact I am convinced he hasn't wavered at all in his belief, as you described it: this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent.

What Kraft has no choice but to accept is this: there is no appeal process available, there is no opportunity for arbitration, and any lawsuit would be totally frivolous.

He may want to fight, but there's noplace to go to fight.

Oh come on... Once again the Pats Fans holding onto this theory is silly.

Kraft is a billionaire. If he believed he was innocent in this matter he would fight it to the end to protect his legacy. This is not about money, he has more than enough money to fight this if he believed he was innocent. He could have taken this matter into the courts and fought it, and he would have lost because you know why? They are guilty.

Since we are making up theories.... maybe Kraft did not want it to go into the courts as it may have hurt his legacy even more as they looked into other punishments given to the Pats as justification to the severity of this punishment.

Now, if you want to argue the punishment as being too severe by all means argue that, but a very high percentage of neutral fans (I would argue in the high 90 percentile) know the Pats are guilty of messing around with game balls on game day when they should not have been.

If Kraft really does believe he is innocent and just gave into Goodell it would be the biggest coward move there is. What is to stop Goodell from continuing to walk on Kraft and the Pats? If you truly believe the Pats are innocent and Kraft's best plan of action to fight the league is to fold then I feel sorry for you. Let's be real clear here though that this is not the case because Kraft realized that they made a mistake and are guilty. He wanted to lead people to believe he had no chance of winning this by what he said in his presser that he is not happy and still believes this is wrong blah blah blah but actions speak louder than words and he folded. It is clear he fooled some of you with that no where to turn theory. At the start remember he had you fooled in the innocent theory as well and that you guys were going to fight this till the end and you guys were ready to do whatever it took no matter what to plead innocence. That theory changed and so did your stance as now you had the no where to turn theory and it would cost to much money even though your owner is a billionaire. LOL

You don't think Kraft would have checked in with his legal team right at the start when he was pleading innocence and we will fight this schtick? He only realized he should have checked in with his legal team after he started pleading innocence? It was all posturing to see what Goodell actually had or was going to do.

You know why Kraft changed his mind? It changed because Goodell talked sense into him and said we have more on you than you know and you would be best served to take this punishment as you have zero chance to win this even if it goes to court. Game. Set. Match.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Deflating Deflategate

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?referrer=

http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The only thing that proves is that Kraft is a Republican with enough money to buy AEI's services.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The only thing that proves is that Kraft is a Republican with enough money to buy AEI's

services.

Kraft is a well known Democrat

 

[mr roboto]

Why are you grown men still arguing this stolid ####### story?

 

[Tool]

The only thing that proves is that Kraft is a Republican with enough money to buy AEI's

services.

Kraft is a well known Democrat

But it was so hysterical.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The only thing that proves is that Kraft is a

Republican with enough money to buy AEI's

services.

Kraft is a well known Democrat

But it was so hysterical.

The real funny thing about it (beyond being wrong about Kraft's politics) is that he wrote it without any sense of irony. You know, the kind that might come knowing that the NFL hired and paid Wells an obscene amount of money to put out a report that lo and behold absolved the NFL in this whole fiasco.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Well then I stand corrected. I don't get the connection then.

ETA: I'm confusing them with Cato. Which was founded in part by Charles Koch, and then effectively taken over by the Kochs because it was no longer conservative enough.

 

[Run It Up]

Well then I stand corrected. I don't get the connection then.

ETA: I'm confusing them with Cato. Which was founded in part by Charles Koch, and then effectively taken over by the Kochs because it was no longer conservative enough.

The Koch bros. Literally the devil.

 

[moleculo]

Deflating Deflategate

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?referrer=

http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

both of these articles were written by economists. They do a fair job of tearing down the Wells analysis, but they do not appear to have read the Exponent report.

Wells did a terrible job of explaining the science involved; I had significant doubts when I read the Wells report too. It wasn't until I read the Exponent report that I really understood the conclusions being drawn. Wells conclusions were accurate, he simply did not do a fair job of explaining why.

aei.org (and Krafts Nobel winning chemist) both seem to allow for the possibility that Anderson used a different gauge when testing the Colts balls vs the Pats balls pre-game. This isn't something that makes a lot of sense to me, and is not discussed explicitly in the report. I don't find any explanation relying on different gauges being used to be credible.

 

[Tool]

Deflating Deflategate

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?referrer=

http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

both of these articles were written by economists. They do a fair job of tearing down the Wells analysis, but they do not appear to have read the Exponent report.

Wells did a terrible job of explaining the science involved; I had significant doubts when I read the Wells report too. It wasn't until I read the Exponent report that I really understood the conclusions being drawn. Wells conclusions were accurate, he simply did not do a fair job of explaining why.

aei.org (and Krafts Nobel winning chemist) both seem to allow for the possibility that Anderson used a different gauge when testing the Colts balls vs the Pats balls pre-game. This isn't something that makes a lot of sense to me, and is not discussed explicitly in the report. I don't find any explanation relying on different gauges being used to be credible.

Well you don't find them credible. I guess that settles it then.

 

[moleculo]

Deflating Deflategate

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?referrer=

http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

both of these articles were written by economists. They do a fair job of tearing down the Wells analysis, but they do not appear to have read the Exponent report.Wells did a terrible job of explaining the science involved; I had significant doubts when I read the Wells report too. It wasn't until I read the Exponent report that I really understood the conclusions being drawn. Wells conclusions were accurate, he simply did not do a fair job of explaining why.

aei.org (and Krafts Nobel winning chemist) both seem to allow for the possibility that Anderson used a different gauge when testing the Colts balls vs the Pats balls pre-game. This isn't something that makes a lot of sense to me, and is not discussed explicitly in the report. I don't find any explanation relying on different gauges being used to be credible.

Well you don't find them credible. I guess that settles it then.

 

[davearm]

Deflating Deflategate

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?referrer=

http://www.aei.org/publication/on-wells-report/

both of these articles were written by economists. They do a fair job of tearing down the Wells analysis, but they do not appear to have read the Exponent report.

Wells did a terrible job of explaining the science involved; I had significant doubts when I read the Wells report too. It wasn't until I read the Exponent report that I really understood the conclusions being drawn. Wells conclusions were accurate, he simply did not do a fair job of explaining why.

aei.org (and Krafts Nobel winning chemist) both seem to allow for the possibility that Anderson used a different gauge when testing the Colts balls vs the Pats balls pre-game. This isn't something that makes a lot of sense to me, and is not discussed explicitly in the report. I don't find any explanation relying on different gauges being used to be credible.

Well you don't find them credible. I guess that settles it then.

Do you find it plausible that before the game, Walt Anderson may have tested the Patriots' footballs with one gauge, then switched to a different gauge to test the Colts' footballs?

 

[davearm]

In the current “Deflategate” controversy, the New England Patriots have been accused of illicitly deflating footballs before the start of their 2015 American Football Conference championship game against the Indianapolis Colts. The National

Football League and the lawyers it hired have produced a report — commonly known as the “Wells report” — that has been used to justify penalties against the Patriots and quarterback Tom Brady.

The implication here is the NFL handed down penalties before the Wells report was produced.

In the very first paragraph, the authors reveal their anti-NFL bias.

 

[Workhorse]

In the current “Deflategate” controversy, the New England Patriots have been accused of illicitly deflating footballs before the start of their 2015 American Football Conference championship game against the Indianapolis Colts. The National

Football League and the lawyers it hired have produced a report — commonly known as the “Wells report” — that has been used to justify penalties against the Patriots and quarterback Tom Brady.

The implication here is the NFL handed down penalties before the Wells report was produced.

In the very first paragraph, the authors reveal their anti-NFL bias.

In two sentences, you've revealed your anti-reading comprehension bias.

 

[Run It Up]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

 

[Stealthycat]

Monta knew Jerry used stickum

Montana knew his OL greased their jerseys

Steve Kerr admitted lying about starting lineup

Falcons guilty of piping in sounds

Tom? more likely than not knew the balls were maybe or maybe not tampered with

LOL you guys

 

[Old Smiley]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

I'll keep going. We're half way there. That article's dead on.

If McNally "took the top off" the game balls post inspection, that's an out and out violation. Of a minor rule based on a manufacturer's recommendation. And the Patriots have received the biggest penalty in league history for it. That's a joke, but there you are.

BUT! The far, far greater disservice to the sport was done by the league in the shameful way this was handled. Right out of the bloody gate. And the Pats are paying for it.

As Baloney Sandwich said above, the league's bought and paid for independent investigation fulfilled its purpose and exonerated the league. Surprise!

Week six baby.

(Actually, we should pull a Popovich and rest everybody.)

 

[Bayhawks]

Monta knew Jerry used stickum

Montana knew his OL greased their jerseys

Steve Kerr admitted lying about starting lineup

Falcons guilty of piping in sounds

Tom? more likely than not knew the balls were maybe or maybe not tampered with

LOL you guys

Sigh......Here we go again:

Montana didn't lie and refuse to cooperate with an NFL investigation.

Steve Kerr doesn't play in the NFL, and what he did was akin to the injury report games BB plays (which is largely ignored by the NFL).

Falcons didn't lie and refuse to cooperate with an NFL investigation.

 

[Bayhawks]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

I'll keep going. We're half way there. That article's dead on.

If McNally "took the top off" the game balls post inspection, that's an out and out violation. Of a minor rule based on a manufacturer's recommendation. And the Patriots have received the biggest penalty in league history for it. That's a joke, but there you are.

BUT! The far, far greater disservice to the sport was done by the league in the shameful way this was handled. Right out of the bloody gate. And the Pats are paying for it.

As Baloney Sandwich said above, the league's bought and paid for independent investigation fulfilled its purpose and exonerated the league. Surprise!

Week six baby.

(Actually, we should pull a Popovich and rest everybody.)

Which Kraft, the Patriots, and Brady denied, lied about (they claimed to have done their own investigation but didn't find anything about "the Deflator?"), and then started pointing fingers at the league, demanding apologies, Goodell's job, etc. If they had just shut up, said "yeah, this idiot did this-we fired/suspended him;" it would have been done with months ago.

The Pats made this into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

 

[zilladog]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

I'll keep going. We're half way there. That article's dead on. If McNally "took the top off" the game balls post inspection, that's an out and out violation. Of a minor rule based on a manufacturer's recommendation. And the Patriots have received the biggest penalty in league history for it. That's a joke, but there you are.

BUT! The far, far greater disservice to the sport was done by the league in the shameful way this was handled. Right out of the bloody gate. And the Pats are paying for it.

As Baloney Sandwich said above, the league's bought and paid for independent investigation fulfilled its purpose and exonerated the league. Surprise!

Week six baby.

(Actually, we should pull a Popovich and rest everybody.)

Which Kraft, the Patriots, and Brady denied, lied about (they claimed to have done their own investigation but didn't find anything about "the Deflator?"), and then started pointing fingers at the league, demanding apologies, Goodell's job, etc. If they had just shut up, said "yeah, this idiot did this-we fired/suspended him;" it would have been done with months ago.The Pats made this into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

If it were you in this situation, and you believed you were innocent, you would make a big deal of it too.

If you were in the situation, and knew you were "more likely than not" guilty, you would'nt have made a very big deal of it.

 

[Bayhawks]

"IF" I had actually done my own investigation, as NE claimed, I'd have known those 2 employees weren't squeaky clean, & I wouldn't have done what the Pats did. Either they lied about their investigation, or thought they could get away with it. Either way, the resulting circus is (at least partially) their own doing.

 

[Old Smiley]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

I'll keep going. We're half way there. That article's dead on.

If McNally "took the top off" the game balls post inspection, that's an out and out violation. Of a minor rule based on a manufacturer's recommendation. And the Patriots have received the biggest penalty in league history for it. That's a joke, but there you are.

BUT! The far, far greater disservice to the sport was done by the league in the shameful way this was handled. Right out of the bloody gate. And the Pats are paying for it.

As Baloney Sandwich said above, the league's bought and paid for independent investigation fulfilled its purpose and exonerated the league. Surprise!

Week six baby.

(Actually, we should pull a Popovich and rest everybody.)

Which Kraft, the Patriots, and Brady denied, lied about (they claimed to have done their own investigation but didn't find anything about "the Deflator?"), and then started pointing fingers at the league, demanding apologies, Goodell's job, etc. If they had just shut up, said "yeah, this idiot did this-we fired/suspended him;" it would have been done with months ago.

The Pats made this into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

No. The league made this a big deal by:

1. Leaking false numbers. (On day one!)

2. Crowing about how serious ಠಠ it all was and how serious ಠಠ they were taking it and how they were ಠಠ protecting the integrity of the game.

3. More leaking. And more leaking. And anonymous sources. And more anonymous sources.

 

[Stealthycat]

sure Montana lied about it - he covered it up, just like Rice did and the OL ... bunch of cheaters, everything they did has an asterisk by it now, doesn't it ?

and still ... no evidence Patriots slightly reduced the air in the balls, just a good feeling that they did

seriously people ...

 

[Old Smiley]

One thing I'll dispute about the Hurley piece: It's about the contradictions in what McNally said.

"I base that mostly on the fact that he lied to NFL investigators multiple times about his trip into the bathroom, and even after he admitted to stopping in the bathroom, he claimed to have used a urinal. The bathroom he visited did not have a urinal."

Here's the thing there. If you pee in it, it's a urinal.

And a real question. What are the multiple lies? I'm asking.

 

[Run It Up]

"IF" I had actually done my own investigation, as NE claimed, I'd have known those 2 employees weren't squeaky clean, & I wouldn't have done what the Pats did. Either they lied about their investigation, or thought they could get away with it. Either way, the resulting circus is (at least partially) their own doing.

Uh, the Pats internal investigation found the footage of McNally going into the restroom with the balls immediatelly and handed it over to the league immediately. They were at the very least suspicious or noticed that it looked bad.

Which the league then immediately leaked.

 

[Bayhawks]

I feel like we can get this to 500 pages.

The NFL and Goodell should be embarrassed.

I'll keep going. We're half way there. That article's dead on.

If McNally "took the top off" the game balls post inspection, that's an out and out violation. Of a minor rule based on a manufacturer's recommendation. And the Patriots have received the biggest penalty in league history for it. That's a joke, but there you are.

BUT! The far, far greater disservice to the sport was done by the league in the shameful way this was handled. Right out of the bloody gate. And the Pats are paying for it.

As Baloney Sandwich said above, the league's bought and paid for independent investigation fulfilled its purpose and exonerated the league. Surprise!

Week six baby.

(Actually, we should pull a Popovich and rest everybody.)

Which Kraft, the Patriots, and Brady denied, lied about (they claimed to have done their own investigation but didn't find anything about "the Deflator?"), and then started pointing fingers at the league, demanding apologies, Goodell's job, etc. If they had just shut up, said "yeah, this idiot did this-we fired/suspended him;" it would have been done with months ago.

The Pats made this into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

No. The league made this a big deal by:

1. Leaking false numbers. (On day one!)

2. Crowing about how serious ಠಠ it all was and how serious ಠಠ they were taking it and how they were ಠಠ protecting the integrity of the game.

3. More leaking. And more leaking. And anonymous sources. And more anonymous sources.

Where did I say that didn't happen?

The Pats make it worse than it had to be by loudly, arrogantly proclaiming their innocence, promising full cooperation (then not doing so), and by refusing to admit their culpability.

 

[Bayhawks]

"IF" I had actually done my own investigation, as NE claimed, I'd have known those 2 employees weren't squeaky clean, & I wouldn't have done what the Pats did. Either they lied about their investigation, or thought they could get away with it. Either way, the resulting circus is (at least partially) their own doing.

Uh, the Pats internal investigation found the footage of McNally going into the restroom with the balls immediatelly and handed it over to the league immediately. They were at the very least suspicious or noticed that it looked bad.

Which the league then immediately leaked.

But, Kraft continued to demand apologies, claim they were innocent, and blew the whole situation more than was necessary.

IF they did a "full" investigation, they'd have come across the texts the discussed deflating footballs. At that point, demanding apologies, and claiming they were blameless was stupid, and made the situation much worse (and prolonged) than it had to be. They either lied about doing a full investigation, or decided to ignore the information they found.

IF they had come out and said "these 2 guys did something they shouldn't have done; we are going to suspend/fire them;" it would have been over. But they didn't, and now months later, we are still talking about it. Kraft and NE screwed up in how they handled the situation. That's undeniable. I'm not saying the NFL didn't screw up too, but only Pats homers can look at this situation and say NE didn't bring this (at least in part) upon themselves.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/as-brady-appeal-nears-roger-goodell-is-stuck-in-a-corner-of-his-own-creation/2015/06/17/a5fcbaa6-1456-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html

 

[Old Smiley]

YeeHaw.

 

[Run It Up]

Wheres Moleculo?

“The Wells report’s statistical analysis cannot be replicated by performing the analysis as described in the report,”

Apparently someone did try the experiment.

 

[Bayhawks]

Wheres Moleculo?

“The Wells report’s statistical analysis cannot be replicated by performing the analysis as described in the report,”

Apparently someone did try the experiment.

If you read the entire AEI report, they DO replicate the analysis, they chose to disregard it, claiming that the assumptions made (which gauge was used, when the footballs were measured, etc) weren't the assumptions they would have made. That line quoted is taken out of context, since it is based on AEI assuming things that weren't in the Wells report (where the PSI measurements were done, when they were done, etc).

Furthermore, when AEI starts off their report (or the abstract of it), with a braggadocious, false claim, it should bring into question the veracity of their findings. They claim that their study during bountygate was the cause (or at least part of the cause) of the lifting of the bountygate suspensions. They go on to say "news accounts have pointed to our analysis as contributing to that decision." I had never heard of AEI during the bountygate situation, so I went back and checked. I couldn't find a single mention of them or their work being in any way responsible for the lifted suspensions. Furthermore, Tagliabue didn't find the players innocent (as the AEI study asserted); in fact he re-iterated that they all (save Fujita) were guilty & he affirmed Goodell's findings for the players. So, he vacated the suspensions for other reasons, not because he believed the players were innocent, and certainly not because of AEI's work, as they claim.

http://espn.go.com/photo/preview/121211/espn_bountyruling.pdf

So, AEI starts their report by claiming that they were (partially) responsible for the resolution of the bountygate situation (not true), decide just to discount certain parts of the Wells report as not being accurate (which gauge was used, etc), make assumptions based on nothing substantial in their report (when/where the PSI measurements were taken), and come to the conclusion that the Wells report was wrong, and recommend that Goodell ignore it during the appeal. Yet, they ignore the other damning evidence which was a large part of the Wells report (text messages, refusal of NE & Brady to cooperate, etc).

This definitely seems like a completely un-biased, reliable, trust-worthy source of information.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Did Sally Jenkins ever concede Lance Armstrong was a blood doper? If so she was literally the last person on earth to do it.

 

[Stealthycat]

just glad they got the balls back to the correct PSI so Brady could perform better in the 2nd half of the AFC game and in the SB

keeping lower inflated balls more likely than not would have been bad for Tom's performance

oh .. and 75% of the INDY balls were under inflated too - never ever forget that both INDY and PATS were cheating by using under inflating balls

 

[Bayhawks]

just glad they got Brady for trying to get around the rules & for lying/trying to cover it up after the fact

even though lower inflated balls probably had no impact on Tom's performance, his belief that he is above the rules is the real issue

oh .. and never ever forget that PATS were cheating by under inflating balls after they'd been inspected, even if the impact on the game was probably insignificant

Nice to see that you've finally started to be smart.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I can't wait to see the discipline issued to the Patriots for the St. Louis Cardinals hacking scandal.

 

[moleculo]

Wheres Moleculo?

“The Wells report’s statistical analysis cannot be replicated by performing the analysis as described in the report,”

Apparently someone did try the experiment.

statistical analysis <> an experiment.

ETA: all I'm asking is for someone to replicate the transient analysis. Here's the bare minimum you need:

1. a good pressure gauge with at least 0.1 psi resolution.

2. at least one football, preferably used as to no longer have water-proof coating.

3. a standard refrigerator.

4. a $15 thermostat that can override your fridges themostat to set the temp to what ever you want. Personally, I use this one to regulate the temperature in my garage fridge to maintain proper beer fermenting temps.

5. stopwatch.

Procedure:

1. hook up thermostat to fridge, set to 48 dF.

2. set room temp thermostat to 72 dF.

3. adjust football to 12.5 psi.

4. moisten football, place in fridge. spritz and towel off football every 15 min (note: do not let football soak in standing water).

5. after 1.5 hours, bring football out of fridge. set stopwatch.

6. measure pressure of football every minute for 15 minutes.

7. compare to Exponents results.

It's pretty simple. If I had a football and a quality pressure gauge, I'd do it myself.

 

[Anarchy99]

Theoretically, wouldn't orher external factors enter into things? Barometric pressure, humidity, elevation, rain, etc.? Also, Patriots said to have rubbed the footballs to artificially increase PSI levels.

 

[Run It Up]

Okay so they didn't replicate the experiment.

Your opinion of the statistical analysis not lining up with the report and the appendeices?

 

[moleculo]

Theoretically, wouldn't orher external factors enter into things? Barometric pressure, humidity, elevation, rain, etc.? Also, Patriots said to have rubbed the footballs to artificially increase PSI levels.

if you would like to control for all of that, go for it....it's your experiment and if you feel it's important, do it. Personally, I don't feel like any of the above is significant.

My point is, and has been, that it's a fairly simple experiment to do. This is something that could easily be done in one of many labs throughout places like MIT, Harvard, or many of the various scientific labs in and around Boston or around the country. If the science in Exponents report is so faulty, why has it not been invalidated with a set of actual experiments?

I base my support for the Exponent report (and, therefore, the Wells report) 100% on the transient data - both their transient models as well as the experiments they ran to validate the models. If someone were to replicate their experiment and show the data to be invalid, I would be happy to change my tune.

 

[moleculo]

Okay so they didn't replicate the experiment.

Your opinion of the statistical analysis not lining up with the report and the appendeices?

In general, I don't put a whole lot of faith in statistical modeling. As AEI clearly shows, it's very easy to demonstrate whatever point you want to make with an air of certainty. I'll leave arguing about statistical analysis to the statisticians, of which I am not.

 

[Stealthycat]

I assume this year, every football game will see REF's checking pressure at halftime and hammering teams that let their balls get below 12.5

right ?

yeah .... no. nobody will check them, nobody will pay any attention will they? same way they NEVER have paid any attention

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I assume this year, every football game will see REF's checking pressure at halftime and hammering teams that let their balls get below 12.5

right ?

yeah .... no. nobody will check them, nobody will pay any attention will they? same way they NEVER have paid any attention

No, because they will assume the Patriots* quit facking cheating with the game balls. A non issue at that point.