Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[cstu]

I'm an unabashed Patriots fan. Always have been, probably always will remain so. If its found that the Patriots tampered with the balls after they were tested, then the NFL ought to throw the book at them. Go ahead and hammer them. Be my guest.

More than anything else, this story proves just how ignorant the average American journalist is about basic science. The science has been outlined in this thread a few times. Its also here:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/21/how-the-patriots-could-have-cheated-without-letting-air-out-the-ball/Eocm5m29nIlh0HRBjFWsYO/story.html, summarized by a college physics professor. The NFL rules provide an objective that is simply unattainable in cold weather games. Even if you provided the officials with balls that were at the upper limit of 13.5 psi, all it would take is a drop of about 20 degrees to make those balls illegal. Even if the balls were originally tested outside, there've been many occasions where the temperature dropped more than 20 degrees over the 5 hour period that is contained between 2 hours before kickoff and the end of the game. Simply put, every single game that experienced a 20 degree drop in temperature from the time the balls were tested and the end of the game was played with a ball that did not meet the acceptable pressure range.

ESPN is trotting out that gas bag Mark Brunell to comment on this issue. He says that he always had his balls inflated to 13.0 psi and he could tell if it was 12.5 or 13.5 and he always played with 13.0. Basic physics shows that he simply doesn't know what he's talking about. He may have started the game with a pressure of 13.0, but unless he played every game of his career at 1 pm and in good weather conditions, there had to have been many games that his 13.0 psi footballs would have been below 12.0 psi by games end. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just doesn't realize that the ball loses pressure in a lower temperature. I think its reasonable to interpret this as anecdotal proof that he was unable to tell the difference during game action between a legally inflated ball and one that was below the lower limit of 12.5 psi.

Once again, if the Patriots ordered the balls to be deflated after the official inspection, then they should be punished severely - regardless of whether or not other NFL teams engage in similar activities.

The failure in logic here is that the balls were likely tested indoors (after the game) and found at 10.5. They were probably even lower on the field.

 

[12punch]

This whole thing is hilarious.

To further cloud the issue, Indianapolis Colts linebacker DQwell Jackson, who says he didnt snitch on the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game, told NFL Medias Jeff Darlington on Thursday that Brady was using a Colts football at the end of the first half Sunday night

D'Qwell Jackson did not snitch. The initial report reads that he intercepted the pass and gave the ball to the Colts equipment manager....

probably to keep for him as a "this is the ball that I intercepted in the AFC championship game" thing.

The Colts equipment manager is the one who noticed the ball was slightly under-inflated and took it to the team higher ups.

Media screwed up this part of the story as well saying D'Qwell noticed under inflation. Just because the media prints it, doesn't meen they are right.

I don't think the media even screwed it up. That's exactly what they reported on ESPN the first day. That the equipment manager brought it up after the Jackson INT. It just got lost in translation through the forum that people started saying Jackson was the one that noticed. I don't think the media (at least not ESPN) ever even reported that. I remember watching the story break on ESPN and them specifically saying that it was the equipment manager that noticed.

There were multiple versions of questions today to Brady about why Jackson could notice the ball and not Tom. Think the hack Ron Borges was asking them pretty forcefully.

EXACTLY!

I've heard all week from various media sources that the Colts LB noticed the ball was flat and brought it to the attention of his equipment manager.

FALSE!

The hole ordeal stemmed not from a player ... or a coach .... it was the freaking equipment manager who was bent because his team was getting their #### handed to them.

The Colt players / coach didn't notice or care. They still don't care.

well, then he was bent about a colts ball, apparently

keep up with the thread, dude

 

[bostonfred]

brunell also said that lower psi was a huge advantage - but then said he didn't use the lowest psi allowed.

it's weird, too, because ESPN organized an unbiased panel of experts who had all lost to the patriots in the afccg or superbowl. They're selling ads, not actual news.

Have any other QBs that aren't biased commented on this?

Yes. Some have said that it makes a difference others haven't. I'm guessing you're looking for counter examples, so Theismann could barely tell the difference, Moon said it was a non issue, Rodgers prefers more inflation, in fact a bunch of current players and coaches have said they think this is no big deal. There are obviously people on both sides. I just think the brunell thing is funny because it's ESPN acting like fox news or bill maher, bringing in a panel of like minded numb nuts to grind their axes.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

No way. A fully inflated ball from a "just enough" inflated ball feels very different in every sport. Even to a schlub like me. 12.5 vs 10.5 is a BIG difference.

Ok, but your making a lot of assumptions about what a 10.5psi inflated ball being 'just enough'. Its not like an underinflated beach ball or a nerf ball or something. The consensus seems to be it MIGHT be a noticeable difference at best. The refs handled the balls more than anybody and didnt notice anything.

If the cold can make Aaron Rodger's leg feel like turf it certainly, coupled with rain, can make the balls feel normal.

It's interesting though how different footballs are from gonads. In the cold, wind, and rain gonads shrink up and get tighter, and with a rougher exterior. They get harder, not softer. Perhaps the NFL and the manufacturer could consider a new ball incorporating some gonadiol material to help offset the ideal gas law and the soaking of the ball with rain.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

brunell also said that lower psi was a huge advantage - but then said he didn't use the lowest psi allowed.

it's weird, too, because ESPN organized an unbiased panel of experts who had all lost to the patriots in the afccg or superbowl. They're selling ads, not actual news.

Have any other QBs that aren't biased commented on this?

Troy Aikman who likely isn't very salty about all of his losses to the Patriots, but all of his time spent with Joe Buck may have dumbed him down a bit.

 

[Itchy Amos]

I'm an unabashed Patriots fan. Always have been, probably always will remain so. If its found that the Patriots tampered with the balls after they were tested, then the NFL ought to throw the book at them. Go ahead and hammer them. Be my guest.

More than anything else, this story proves just how ignorant the average American journalist is about basic science. The science has been outlined in this thread a few times. Its also here:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/21/how-the-patriots-could-have-cheated-without-letting-air-out-the-ball/Eocm5m29nIlh0HRBjFWsYO/story.html, summarized by a college physics professor. The NFL rules provide an objective that is simply unattainable in cold weather games. Even if you provided the officials with balls that were at the upper limit of 13.5 psi, all it would take is a drop of about 20 degrees to make those balls illegal. Even if the balls were originally tested outside, there've been many occasions where the temperature dropped more than 20 degrees over the 5 hour period that is contained between 2 hours before kickoff and the end of the game. Simply put, every single game that experienced a 20 degree drop in temperature from the time the balls were tested and the end of the game was played with a ball that did not meet the acceptable pressure range.

ESPN is trotting out that gas bag Mark Brunell to comment on this issue. He says that he always had his balls inflated to 13.0 psi and he could tell if it was 12.5 or 13.5 and he always played with 13.0. Basic physics shows that he simply doesn't know what he's talking about. He may have started the game with a pressure of 13.0, but unless he played every game of his career at 1 pm and in good weather conditions, there had to have been many games that his 13.0 psi footballs would have been below 12.0 psi by games end. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just doesn't realize that the ball loses pressure in a lower temperature. I think its reasonable to interpret this as anecdotal proof that he was unable to tell the difference during game action between a legally inflated ball and one that was below the lower limit of 12.5 psi.

Once again, if the Patriots ordered the balls to be deflated after the official inspection, then they should be punished severely - regardless of whether or not other NFL teams engage in similar activities.

The failure in logic here is that the balls were likely tested indoors (after the game) and found at 10.5. They were probably even lower on the field.

The common reports indicate that the balls were tested at half time and found to be below the legal limit. Even if the balls were brought inside to be tested, the air temperature inside the balls wouldn't instantaneously come up to room temperature. And the delay of the second half when the ref stopped the game and replaced the balls seems to indicate that they had just discovered the pressure issue, otherwise, they probably wouldn't have let the Patriots on the field with the deflated ball.

At this point its all conjecture, since the NFL hasn't provided much - if any- real details.

 

[The General]

Real question is how the ball boy is going to let the air out at the Super Bowl. They are going to be watching him like a hawk.

 

[Peak]

.....

Again... JMHO, but in many cases it's Occams Razor that wins the day.

Not a BB or Brady fan, but there isn't much evidence to nail down on these two. With that said, I think they are both guilty of lying about not know what was going on, either within the organization (BB), or how the equipment was pre-treated (TB).

I also like the fact that you brought Occam's Razor into play. I was just teaching my 11yr old about that yesterday. Good stuff and I can see it applying here.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Schefty was on Mike and Mike this morning and he basically said that if things remain the way they are as of now, with the NFL having no evidence that the Pats did anything and Belichick/Brady denying any wrongdoing plus some kind of logical explanation for the loss of PSI in the footballs, there is NOTHING that Goodell can do here.

Knowing how locked in Schefter is with the NFL, this thing seems to end with a whimper and not a bang.

So then I'll ask this question: When folks point to the huge penalty that the league levied against the Patriots for Spygate as proof that what they did was horrible and egregious cheating, what does the potential lack of league action against the Pats for this mean to you in terms of the seriousness (or lack thereof) of this? And before you go down the road to say that Spygate had proof and Ballghazi didn't: (a) that has never stopped Goodell from dropping the hammer in the past, and; (b) the league has direct proof of ball tampering by Minnesota earlier this year and Aaron Rodgers' admissions of overinflation and those are both going unpunished.

Short of any kind of new earth-shattering news, this "scandal" appears to be over. Might be time to move on, folks.

You stop that. I generally tune out for this two week festival of stupid. This is the first time in years I've been glued to the coverage. We need so much more of Brady saying "some guys like old balls" and the general, adolescent giddiness I've heard the entire time on WEEI. The Pats cro-mag crowd is really ramping it up with the conspiracy theories, poorly reasoned explanations, and god-awful comparisons that clear the team/players/staff of all wrongdoing and it's been so rich that I just don't want it to end. Some clown this morning was trying to compare low PSI to Peyton's glove! lmfao!! One legal, one not, but sure, that's a great comparison.

 

[parrot]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Brunnell have to do a blind test with balls with a 0.5 PSI increment. To see him guess wrong repeatedly would put this story to bed.

He might be able to tell in a TV studio if he squeezed a 13.5 psi ball and then squeezed a 11.0 psi ball, but if you tossed him a random football and asked him to identify whether it was more or less than 13.0, he's likely have a tough time with it.

Be sure and take him outside in the rain and 40ish degree weather too.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Time for the NFL to have a one-sized fits all ball prep. The original complaint was that balls were too slick right out of the box. That lead to allowing teams to prep the balls to get rid of that slickness, which opened Pandora's box. For now on a preapproved ball scuffing machine needs to be brought to each stadium. the balls for each team will each come right out of the box, go through the preapproved scrubbing and buffing, maybe with bristles from a particular breed of Russian boar and with abrasive mud from a particular Delaware river. They will then be air dried by tumble drying them in a Maytag Gold front load dryer, the Official ball dryer of the NFL, and then filled to exactly 13 pounds psi for anticipated kickoff temperature by Riddell accupumps, the Official ball pump of the NFL, available for sale at Target and other fine retailers. Each team will then use common balls, balls which are examined between each series by Mark Brunell, or a Mark Brunell trained ball inspector, the Official balls Inspectors for the NFL.

I know I would apply for the Mark Brunell Academy of Ball Inspecting. I would want to be the first to earn certification and to get into the league on Gene Steratore's crew.

 

[Anarchy99]

And if the league was ALREADY monitoring the ball inflation because of other complaints, wouldn't they make every effort to make sure they had the footballs under surveillance at all times?

They probably did, hence switching out the balls during the game. People are acting like they didn't check them multiple times and didn't switch the balls in. Again, it was 17-7 in the first half with the "deflated" balls and 28-0 in the second half with the replacement balls.

My point was if they were trying to catch the patriots in the act or find out why the parts footballs were below the psi threshold, then they would have had eyes on or cameras taping the footballs for every second of the pre game process and in game operations.

Who knows, maybe they have that. Maybe they don't. At this point we effective know close to nothing. All we really have to go on is what the media has reported with mostly anonymous sources and a bunch of talking heads with axes to grind.

If schefter is reporting accurately, short of a grand jury indictment and major shakedown (which I don't see the nfl really wanting), a lot of people calling for million dollar fines, suspensions, lost draft picks, and cap deductions are going to be disappointed.

 

[12punch]

Ross Tucker ‏@RossTuckerNFL 1m1 minute ago

If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?

I really think that's how it really already works. That's why they don't put a gauge on the balls in the pre-game check. It looks like a football, it feels like a football, let's play football. Then the Colts tried to use the letter of the law to jack with the Pats and here we are.

You want a scandal? Put a meter on the IQ of sports media.

Why dont we just let them play with a K2? Some guys have smallish hands, and would prefer the grip they can get on a K2.

You have to have some standard of consistency for the piece of equipment that is involved in every single moment of every single play as the focal point of the game. To say otherwise is bordering on ridiculous. I like Ross Tucker, but disagree with him here. They provide a range for the PSI, and the balls should all fall into that range. You can go high in that range if you are Aaron Rodgers, or low if you are Brady - but stay within the range.

I imagine that's the change that will come out of this. Every ball will be metered in the pre-game check from now on. Not a big deal. Never was a big deal.

refs probably love that

thx, indy

 

[Flying Elvis]

Over 2500 posts in this thread. Not sure why I feel the need to post my thoughts but here they are.

-I am not a Pats fan or hater.

-I think fans love to hate this team. Was the same for the Cowboys in the 90's.

-It's obvious to me that while the act of deflating a ball is a competitive advantage, it played no role in the Colts game. However, maybe in other games.

-I see no way that Bill is involved in any way shape or form.

-This is Brady/Ballboys/Equipment guys

-The risk ratio of advantage gained to potential penalty is beyond stupid.

-Perhaps I didn't see or hear the comments....but I noticed the Pats organization has never really said we are going to do our own internal investigation to find out what happened. It's been we will co operate with the league and deny any knowledge because it will be near impossible to prove. They know this.

-Based on the past of Spygate and now this will factor in the punishment. Bountygate did not deal with cheating and the league gave have huge penalties and then the Commish was seen as being light on the Rice case. This is going to get ugly imo.

However, the problem for the league is 2 fold. Obviously there is enough circumstantial evidence to prove some wrong doing, but the problem is who do you punish specifically and how much. They have to prove it beyond a doubt if they are going to suspend Brady. I do not see this happening.

Prediction:

Team fine - 1 million dollars

Team loses - 1rst and 2nd round picks

Brady fined - $50000-$100000

Hoody fined -$50000-$100000

Ball boys/equipment managers get fired.

I don't see draft picks being docked. It's too circumstantial for that. The fines may hit that range, but I'd guess they'll stick to the $25k noted in the rule and probably apply that on a per ball basis. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not it's true the league & refs were lackadaisical about this, though I don't expect the NFL to be honest about that to the public. If it's the 'unwritten rule' that I suspect reading between the lines, we'll see pretty mild penalties b/c NFL HQ knows they bungled yet another case.

I can say, unequivocally, there will absolutely not be a fired equip mgr./ball boy because of this. This organization would never throw a low level employee under the bus like that.

 

[Road Warriors]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Brunnell have to do a blind test with balls with a 0.5 PSI increment. To see him guess wrong repeatedly would put this story to bed.

He might be able to tell in a TV studio if he squeezed a 13.5 psi ball and then squeezed a 11.0 psi ball, but if you tossed him a random football and asked him to identify whether it was more or less than 13.0, he's likely have a tough time with it.

Be sure and take him outside in the rain and 40ish degree weather too.

Then send a few 300 lb men with bad intentions at him.

 

[Anarchy99]

Point spread for Pats Colts game next year? 28?

 

[Road Warriors]

Point spread for Pats Colts game next year? 28?

2 psi

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Pregame ball prep should have its own segment during pregame shows. Todays ball prep brought to you byGillette personal groomers and Nivea Skin care, the Official Metro Manscaping products of the NFL.

 

[12punch]

A couple of things I'm not buying

#1 Brady and BB had no idea, that's BS; BB is the ultra control freak and I'm sure Brady knew that the balls felt different. There are retired QBs on NFL Live proving that an experienced hand can tell the difference.

#2 All teams are messing with the balls. Rodgers admitted it but if all the teams are doing it then why did all 12 of the Colts' pass the PSI test?

I can't even imagine

this site

 

[[icon]]

.....

Again... JMHO, but in many cases it's Occams Razor that wins the day.

Not a BB or Brady fan, but there isn't much evidence to nail down on these two. With that said, I think they are both guilty of lying about not know what was going on, either within the organization (BB), or how the equipment was pre-treated (TB).

I also like the fact that you brought Occam's Razor into play. I was just teaching my 11yr old about that yesterday. Good stuff and I can see it applying here.

Thanks, and I'm a firm believer in Occams Razor in many cases.

I think TB/BB are being truthful about what they're being accused of, which is doctoring the pressure of the balls after inspection. I simply refuse to believe that actually happened, absent proof. If there IS evidence that happened, agreed with Itchy Amos that the book should be thrown at whoever is responsible.

I sincerely believe this is a case of an unofficial "Grey area" of non-enforcement. I think the Patriots balls passed the cursory "inspection". I think the balls MAY have dipped in pressure slightly due to the transfer from inside to outside, but they were likely in an unenforced "acceptable grey area" of low pressure beforehand. I think Brady picked a ball based on feel and the balls were set to that level. I think it's comical to think that Brady specifically dictated that the balls be set to 11psi or whatever they were reported to be at.

IF the NFL Officials were rigorously enforcing pressure, and this hand-feel test was SO obvious, as some of the ratings-hungry talking heads in the media are alleging, then officials would have picked up on it immediately as they handle the football constantly through the game.

IF there is no evidence the Patriots doctored the footballs after being "tested" by officials (which I'm nearly certain they did NOT do), there is no recourse for the NFL to hammer the Pats with any significant penalty. 25-50k fine on one or two folks (which will be absorbed by Kraft), and then tightening the "grey area" of acceptable ball-doctoring going forward. IMO.

Junior Clousseau, Out!

 

[biju]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

 

[Anarchy99]

Viagra or Cialis would seem like the perfect sponsors for the pregame ball inflation.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Time for the NFL to have a one-sized fits all ball prep. The original complaint was that balls were too slick right out of the box. That lead to allowing teams to prep the balls to get rid of that slickness, which opened Pandora's box. For now on a preapproved ball scuffing machine needs to be brought to each stadium. the balls for each team will each come right out of the box, go through the preapproved scrubbing and buffing, maybe with bristles from a particular breed of Russian boar and with abrasive mud from a particular Delaware river. They will then be air dried by tumble drying them in a Maytag Gold front load dryer, the Official ball dryer of the NFL, and then filled to exactly 13 pounds psi for anticipated kickoff temperature by Riddell accupumps, the Official ball pump of the NFL, available for sale at Target and other fine retailers. Each team will then use common balls, balls which are examined between each series by Mark Brunell, or a Mark Brunell trained ball inspector, the Official balls Inspectors for the NFL.

I know I would apply for the Mark Brunell Academy of Ball Inspecting. I would want to be the first to earn certification and to get into the league on Gene Steratore's crew.

Also, damn you. Someone at NFL HQ will spot this and run with it, leading to even more advertising crammed down our throats every Sunday.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Coach Ditka: We are now throwing our coverage to Erin Andrews, our sideline Reporter for todays game. Erin has had extensive experience covering ball preparation, and she will be here to discuss the preparation of Tom Brady's and Russell Wilson's balls for todays game. Erin?

 

[Flying Elvis]

Brady needs to do a peen-pill commercial immediately! "Ball deflation got you down? Viagra will get you right back in the game!"

 

[KarmaPolice]

A couple of things I'm not buying

#1 Brady and BB had no idea, that's BS; BB is the ultra control freak and I'm sure Brady knew that the balls felt different. There are retired QBs on NFL Live proving that an experienced hand can tell the difference.

Is this a Bill thing, or do you think that HCs are into every detail of what is going in the stadium on game day.

I just don't understand why people wouldn't believe a coach that said they would have no idea what is going on with the equipment on game day. I mean, forget game plan and last minute adjustments, let's get down to the field to check those ball psis, cleat length, grass length, temperature of the visiting team's locker room, etc, etc.. Even Qbs that are skeptical about Brady saying he had no clue are saying that no coaches were involved in the ball process but them and the equipment team.

People just want to see Bill fry.

 

[The General]

Ross Tucker ‏@RossTuckerNFL 1m1 minute ago

If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?

I really think that's how it really already works. That's why they don't put a gauge on the balls in the pre-game check. It looks like a football, it feels like a football, let's play football. Then the Colts tried to use the letter of the law to jack with the Pats and here we are.

You want a scandal? Put a meter on the IQ of sports media.

Why dont we just let them play with a K2? Some guys have smallish hands, and would prefer the grip they can get on a K2.You have to have some standard of consistency for the piece of equipment that is involved in every single moment of every single play as the focal point of the game. To say otherwise is bordering on ridiculous. I like Ross Tucker, but disagree with him here. They provide a range for the PSI, and the balls should all fall into that range. You can go high in that range if you are Aaron Rodgers, or low if you are Brady - but stay within the range.

I imagine that's the change that will come out of this. Every ball will be metered in the pre-game check from now on. Not a big deal. Never was a big deal.

refs probably love that

thx, indy

They are supposed to do this already. If the crew skipped that step they are probably not loving life right now.

 

[Boston]

Coach Ditka: We are now throwing our coverage to Erin Andrews, our sideline Reporter for todays game. Erin has had extensive experience covering ball preparation, and she will be here to discuss the preparation of Tom Brady's and Russell Wilson's balls for todays game. Erin?

The real controversy should be how she was dressed last week...she wasn't hired to dress up like an LL Bean model showing off their winter line...

 

[The General]

Coach Ditka: We are now throwing our coverage to Erin Andrews, our sideline Reporter for todays game. Erin has had extensive experience covering ball preparation, and she will be here to discuss the preparation of Tom Brady's and Russell Wilson's balls for todays game. Erin?

The real controversy should be how she was dressed last week...she wasn't hired to dress up like an LL Bean model showing off their winter line...

Warm weather Super Bowl should help. She is on the downslope so hopefully she gives it her all the next couple years while she still can.

 

[12punch]

brunell also said that lower psi was a huge advantage - but then said he didn't use the lowest psi allowed.

it's weird, too, because ESPN organized an unbiased panel of experts who had all lost to the patriots in the afccg or superbowl. They're selling ads, not actual news.

when are we getting more likes in this totalitarian state????

now I know why unions exist

 

[The Flying Elvis]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

They are not a massive outlier.

The biggest correlation that can be drawn from those charts are teams with good QBs don't fumble as much.

Falcons/Colts/Patriots/Saints are the top teams for all fumbles, not just fumbles lost. The author tries to say the Patriots are an outlier because they are the only non dome team. I think a stronger case can be made is that Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady are generally some of the better QBs in the league and don't fumble as much as other QBs.

 

[msudaisy26]

I heard that Goodell and his team are reading message boards so they get the punishment right, not like with Ray Rice. After Goodell got done reading this thread I am heading rumors that Goodell and the NFL are just going to contract the Patriots.

 

[Brony]

Now starting to think this might be more important than ISIS. And I was initially skeptic.

 

[stbugs]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see Brunnell have to do a blind test with balls with a 0.5 PSI increment. To see him guess wrong repeatedly would put this story to bed.

From watching Bettis squeeze them it doesn't seem difficult to tell the difference.

From watching Youtube, I could bend my iPhone 6 Plus if I apply a huge effort. I pretty much never do that in the normal course of holding it. How often would Mark Brunnell squeeze the ball after getting the snap? There is a big difference between standing there squeezing the ball to check it and holding the ball like you would in a football game. I played before and I don't recall any player ever squeezing the ball during a game.

 

[Bucky86]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

They are not a massive outlier.

The biggest correlation that can be drawn from those charts are teams with good QBs don't fumble as much.

Falcons/Colts/Patriots/Saints are the top teams for all fumbles, not just fumbles lost. The author tries to say the Patriots are an outlier because they are the only non dome team. I think a stronger case can be made is that Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady are generally some of the better QBs in the league and don't fumble as much as other QBs.

 

[shader]

Here's what I find really strange in a story that makes little sense to me.

The NFL was on alert from the Colts that the game-balls were under-inflated.

We've been told that the footballs stay with the officials until a few minutes before kickoff.

Where was the officiating crew before the game? Would you think they would have inflated the balls to the correct PSI if they were already warned?

Also, if they were inflated to the correct psi, wouldn't they have been watching the balls closely to make sure nothing happened?

 

[Idiot Boxer]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

The NFL offices have more leaks than the Pat's footballs

 

[stbugs]

A couple of things I'm not buying

#1 Brady and BB had no idea, that's BS; BB is the ultra control freak and I'm sure Brady knew that the balls felt different. There are retired QBs on NFL Live proving that an experienced hand can tell the difference.

Is this a Bill thing, or do you think that HCs are into every detail of what is going in the stadium on game day.

I just don't understand why people wouldn't believe a coach that said they would have no idea what is going on with the equipment on game day. I mean, forget game plan and last minute adjustments, let's get down to the field to check those ball psis, cleat length, grass length, temperature of the visiting team's locker room, etc, etc.. Even Qbs that are skeptical about Brady saying he had no clue are saying that no coaches were involved in the ball process but them and the equipment team.

People just want to see Bill fry.

I agree and I'm not a Pats fan. It's sort of like the government conspiracy theorists assuming they are watching everything and actually have the competence to do so. This is the same thing, BB is an evil genius who literally knows what every molecule in Foxboro is doing on Sundays and controls every movement of wind, rain and grass. Some of the people in this thread think that he controls every aspect of the game down to stitching in the uniforms, which I have heard contain small electrodes which shock defensive players fingers just enough to seem like static electricity (hence his weather control producing rain) that Brady can elude would be tacklers.

 

[shader]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

Where are you getting that info? I don't see it in your link.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

 

[Dr. Octopus]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

Where are you getting that info? I don't see it in your link.

I do. It's in the story.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Of course the balls manipulated. The only relevant questions is can you prove brady and or BB awareness and if you cant how do you stop kraft from suing the nfl if fines exceed $25k given the league is responsible for institutional control.

 

[12punch]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

that is absolutely awesome --- I love belichick so much

best coach in the history of sports

btw, that cutler must be the most stand up guy in the league --- maybe start cheating a little on the psi, dude

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Of course the balls manipulated. The only relevant questions is can you prove brady and or BB awareness and if you cant how do you stop kraft from suing the nfl if fines exceed $25k given the league is responsible for institutional control.

Well the "circumstantial evidence" becomes much stronger if what Peter King wrote is true. People often dismiss "circumstantial evidence", but it holds up even in a criminal case.

ETA: And they wouldn't need to show Brady or Billy's involvement it could be a penalty awarded against the organization.

I still think the penalty isn't going to be anything all that crazy though.

 

[mbuehner]

all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 ps

We dont know that.

 

[KarmaPolice]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776939/piecing-it-all-together-on-deflated-footballs

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- On Wednesday, we produced an "all thoughts in one place" entry on the topic of the New England Patriots and underinflated footballs. Two days later, after hearing from Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, let's do it again.

Still many unanswered questions. Despite a rush to judgment in some circles, there is incomplete information to analyze. This is the challenge of the 24/7 news cycle. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped some from publicly questioning the integrity of Brady, which from this viewpoint, has crossed the line based on the credible information available.

Following up on Schefter's words. On Thursday morning, ESPN.com NFL Insider Adam Schefter said the following on "SportsCenter": "My understanding is that the league has had a tough time getting somebody to substantiate everything. Now, the footballs are the footballs. We have the evidence and they've found that some of the footballs were underinflated or deflated. But to figure out the process, who's responsible, why this happened, my understanding is that it's been difficult for the league to ascertain those facts so far. ... I think the feeling all week long has been that it may be until after the Super Bowl that we have any announcement of any discipline, if there is any that does come forward in this particular case."

Focus shifts to the NFL. The league is not commenting on its "review" at this point. Brady said Thursday that the league has not contacted him, which is somewhat curious. From this viewpoint, that's the obvious place where the focus should now shift. By acknowledging their "review" and investigation in the first place, the NFL has given this story a tidal wave of momentum over the last five days. Some more information and transparency from the NFL on what they have, what they're looking for, and their process (pregame, during the game, postgame) would add critical context to the discussion at a time when personal reputations and the brand of one of its franchises are at stake. That is, unless the NFL likes the idea that talk of deflated footballs is leading national network newscasts and adds an element of drama in the build-up to Super Bowl XLIX.

Belichick's news conference. The way Belichick approached his Thursday news conferencewas a surprise. The feeling here was that he would open by talking about the Seahawks, the great challenge they present, and then mention something at the end of the opening statement about the deflated footballs and how he can't comment based on a league investigation. That would have been consistent with his approach in most situations like these. Instead, he was detailed and addressed the issue head-on. It felt like he put all his cards on the table.

Brady's news conference. The general sense from this viewpoint was that media members felt like Brady was going to "fall on the sword" during his news conference. When he didn't, that led to a negative backlash in some circles. While everyone is searching for answers, that doesn't seem fair. The first question asked to this reporter in a radio interview on Thursday night was, "Do you believe Brady?" The answer: In 15 years covering Brady, there has been no reason to question his integrity. We should wait for some more information, specifically from the NFL, before we jump to this level of discussion.

A big disappointment. That sums up any personal feelings here. Also, it's time for the NFL to step up. If the Patriots are found guilty of any wrongdoing, hold them accountable and let's move on to talk about the game. If there is no evidence of wrongdoing at this point, say it, mention that the review is ongoing, and let's move on to talk about the game.

 

[Itchy Amos]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

That 3rd bullet point is a bit strange. Which footballs? The original ones or the second half ones? Were they checked on the field or in the league office on Monday morning? Without proper context, its impossible to tell anything meaningful.

 

[The General]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

The process has been posted a ton - but confirmation that the refs measured the ball before game and didn't just do a spot check - is new.

Still just what MMQB "sources" say but if right somebody for sure let the air out.

And, most say would agree there is no way some ball boy would do this it on his own.