Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)

[Dr. Octopus]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

That story is from today and seems to indicate that King "knows" this to be "fact" per his sources. Perhaps the arguments were made before but this is adding more substance and clearing up if the balls were actually tested.

 

[mphtrilogy]

why allow them to pick the balls at all.

let the ref's open up a sealed box and play with them, tough noogies.

spoiled brats man...

can you imagine MLB pitchers choosing there own baseballs?

a ridiculous practice by the NFL that needs to end, maybe the D will get a fair chance slanted there way for a change... over these prima donna qb's that get every single rule change the past 15 years...

 

[[icon]]

at anyone trying to explain this as purely a temperature shift issue. Cmon guys...

1 of 2 possible scenarios happened here:

1) New England had balls that were a bit low that passed inspection (potentially because the NFL has been lax on ball pressure to allow QB's to customize for improved offense). Those balls then dipped more when hitting the cold air resulting in an alleged (but not confirmed) 2psi below acceptable limits.

2) New England submitted balls within spec that passed inspection. Then they were able to surreptitiously gain access to the balls while in the protective possession of the NFL-assigned game official on the sideline and deflate 11 of the 12 balls by an alleged 2psi.

IMO 1 is INFINITELY more likely than 2.

GIVEN 1: Patriots are borderline off the hook and the onus is on the NFL/Officials and what MAY be lax enforcement of the rules across the board. Minor fines will be assessed and nothing more.

GIVEN 2: If the NFL can provide evidence the Patriots somehow tampered with the pressure of the balls after inspection, they should lose picks, there should be sizeable fines, and potential suspensions, depending on how egregious the offense.

As always, JMO.

 

[rjv]

A couple of things I'm not buying

#1 Brady and BB had no idea, that's BS; BB is the ultra control freak and I'm sure Brady knew that the balls felt different. There are retired QBs on NFL Live proving that an experienced hand can tell the difference.

Is this a Bill thing, or do you think that HCs are into every detail of what is going in the stadium on game day.

I just don't understand why people wouldn't believe a coach that said they would have no idea what is going on with the equipment on game day. I mean, forget game plan and last minute adjustments, let's get down to the field to check those ball psis, cleat length, grass length, temperature of the visiting team's locker room, etc, etc.. Even Qbs that are skeptical about Brady saying he had no clue are saying that no coaches were involved in the ball process but them and the equipment team.

People just want to see Bill fry.

NOTHING happens in that stadium without BB knowing about it. Sal Pal commented on Colin cowherds show that when he was there reporting in the past every time they knew exactly where he was at every second and he himself doesn't believe for one second that BB had no idea what goes on there.

 

[mbuehner]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

The process has been posted a ton - but confirmation that the refs measured the ball before game and didn't just do a spot check - is new.

Still just what MMQB "sources" say but if right somebody for sure let the air out.

And, most say would agree there is no way some ball boy would do this it on his own.

I wouldnt call that confirmation. Aside from an anonymous source, the actual wording used would be critical, and who the source is would be relevant to how careful their language is.

If the NFL simply concluded that the balls were examined and found to be correct, thats a long way from the balls being metered. We dont know. Until someone comes out and says the balls were measured, I dont think this is by any means settled.

 

[shader]

If Peter King's new allegations are true, that the balls were in fact tested and left the locker room at the correct limits...that does imply that someone was deflating them.

But it's more of a suspicion thing, not much you can prove.

There isn't a prescribed "penalty" for using an under-inflated ball. If a ball is under-inflated, the refs change it out and put in a proper ball. That's what was done in the game, and the game went on.

If the officials did properly test, than either a ballboy is deflating the balls without permission from Brady (which I find hard to believe), or Brady has a system in place with the ballboys to deflate the balls just a little bit after the test. It seems to me that this would be a massive risk for Brady to take as an established superstar.

But unless someone admits anything, I just don't know what the NFL can do.

What will probably happen is that Brady will begin using properly inflated balls, show no change in his performance, and people will forget about it, except of course for the people who hate the Pats.

Unless of course they find the ballboy soon and get him to fall on the sword.

 

[parrot]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

They are not a massive outlier.

The biggest correlation that can be drawn from those charts are teams with good QBs don't fumble as much.

Falcons/Colts/Patriots/Saints are the top teams for all fumbles, not just fumbles lost. The author tries to say the Patriots are an outlier because they are the only non dome team. I think a stronger case can be made is that Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady are generally some of the better QBs in the league and don't fumble as much as other QBs.

They did have one pretty big outlier year in 2010 when they only fumbled 9 times. And conveniently the 5 year periods he talk about all contain 2010, so that one year tends to skew every period. What's interesting is that the Patriots led the league in dropped pass % that same year at 7.8%, with the next closest team at 7.2%, and a league average of 5.24%. So they were a pretty good outlier there too. It's funny this advantage conferred in terms of fumbles doesn't carry over to dropped passes, since the balls are supposed to be so much easier to catch and all.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-receiver-drops-percentage/2010/

 

[Dr. Octopus]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

The process has been posted a ton - but confirmation that the refs measured the ball before game and didn't just do a spot check - is new.

Still just what MMQB "sources" say but if right somebody for sure let the air out.

And, most say would agree there is no way some ball boy would do this it on his own.

I wouldnt call that confirmation. Aside from an anonymous source, the actual wording used would be critical, and who the source is would be relevant to how careful their language is.

If the NFL simply concluded that the balls were examined and found to be correct, thats a long way from the balls being metered. We dont know. Until someone comes out and says the balls were measured, I dont think this is by any means settled.

The first bullet point strongly suggests they were tested. I'm not saying that it's true but based on that article the implication is that the balls were tested in a proper manner (it even lists that they were in the proper psi range).

 

[Tool]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

No way. A fully inflated ball from a "just enough" inflated ball feels very different in every sport. Even to a schlub like me. 12.5 vs 10.5 is a BIG difference.

Have you tested this?

 

[shader]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

No way. A fully inflated ball from a "just enough" inflated ball feels very different in every sport. Even to a schlub like me. 12.5 vs 10.5 is a BIG difference.

Have you tested this?

Of course he hasn't

 

[zilladog]

Ross Tucker ‏@RossTuckerNFL 1m1 minute ago

If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?

I really think that's how it really already works. That's why they don't put a gauge on the balls in the pre-game check. It looks like a football, it feels like a football, let's play football. Then the Colts tried to use the letter of the law to jack with the Pats and here we are.

You want a scandal? Put a meter on the IQ of sports media.

Unfortunately there aren't enough of you in this thread making this much sense.

Its an equipment issue people. Refs didn't check as good as they should have. This entire scandal is media driven silliness, and its frankly a shame how many of you were so quick to grab your pitchforks and tinfoil hats.

 

[12punch]

I like how after the balls were taken out of play for being low during the game the pats gathered them all back up and furtively topped them off hoping nobody would notice

dat peter king doe

 

[Tool]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4776939/piecing-it-all-together-on-deflated-footballs

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- On Wednesday, we produced an "all thoughts in one place" entry on the topic of the New England Patriots and underinflated footballs. Two days later, after hearing from Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, let's do it again.

Still many unanswered questions. Despite a rush to judgment in some circles, there is incomplete information to analyze. This is the challenge of the 24/7 news cycle. Unfortunately, that hasn't stopped some from publicly questioning the integrity of Brady, which from this viewpoint, has crossed the line based on the credible information available.

Following up on Schefter's words. On Thursday morning, ESPN.com NFL Insider Adam Schefter said the following on "SportsCenter": "My understanding is that the league has had a tough time getting somebody to substantiate everything. Now, the footballs are the footballs. We have the evidence and they've found that some of the footballs were underinflated or deflated. But to figure out the process, who's responsible, why this happened, my understanding is that it's been difficult for the league to ascertain those facts so far. ... I think the feeling all week long has been that it may be until after the Super Bowl that we have any announcement of any discipline, if there is any that does come forward in this particular case."

Focus shifts to the NFL. The league is not commenting on its "review" at this point. Brady said Thursday that the league has not contacted him, which is somewhat curious. From this viewpoint, that's the obvious place where the focus should now shift. By acknowledging their "review" and investigation in the first place, the NFL has given this story a tidal wave of momentum over the last five days. Some more information and transparency from the NFL on what they have, what they're looking for, and their process (pregame, during the game, postgame) would add critical context to the discussion at a time when personal reputations and the brand of one of its franchises are at stake. That is, unless the NFL likes the idea that talk of deflated footballs is leading national network newscasts and adds an element of drama in the build-up to Super Bowl XLIX.

Belichick's news conference. The way Belichick approached his Thursday news conferencewas a surprise. The feeling here was that he would open by talking about the Seahawks, the great challenge they present, and then mention something at the end of the opening statement about the deflated footballs and how he can't comment based on a league investigation. That would have been consistent with his approach in most situations like these. Instead, he was detailed and addressed the issue head-on. It felt like he put all his cards on the table.

Brady's news conference. The general sense from this viewpoint was that media members felt like Brady was going to "fall on the sword" during his news conference. When he didn't, that led to a negative backlash in some circles. While everyone is searching for answers, that doesn't seem fair. The first question asked to this reporter in a radio interview on Thursday night was, "Do you believe Brady?" The answer: In 15 years covering Brady, there has been no reason to question his integrity. We should wait for some more information, specifically from the NFL, before we jump to this level of discussion.

A big disappointment. That sums up any personal feelings here. Also, it's time for the NFL to step up. If the Patriots are found guilty of any wrongdoing, hold them accountable and let's move on to talk about the game. If there is no evidence of wrongdoing at this point, say it, mention that the review is ongoing, and let's move on to talk about the game.

This is a very good article IMO.

 

[Tango]

No penalties for Pats?

http://offthemonster.com/2015/01/this-just-in-sources-confirm-patriots-will-not-face-penaltiesfines/

 

[shader]

There aren't all that many scenarios left that don't involve someone flat out lying.

The only remaining scenario I can think of is the possibility that a ballboy was adjusting the pressure behind the back of Brady, and that just seems really unlikely.

The NFL states that they tested the PSI of all the balls pregame (would an official admit to improperly testing if his job was on the line?)

Belicheck states he knew nothing about it

Brady states he knew nothing about it

All three of these can't be true, unless you have a rogue ballboy, which seems incredibly unlikely. The thing with Brady is that he took an incredibly risky step coming out and vehemently denying any knowledge of this. If any proof ever comes out that he DID, lying is going to look far worse than anything that's happened so far.

I still think the problem is that the NFL didn't properly test, but then that doesn't make much sense either because they were warned about this pregame, right?

 

[Pop Tart]

Weren't they discovered at halftime, and the officials re-inflated them at that time?

They still scored 28 points in the second half. Take away the 1st half points and the Pats still win 28-7

This is a joke.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

No penalties for Pats?

http://offthemonster.com/2015/01/this-just-in-sources-confirm-patriots-will-not-face-penaltiesfines/

That does seem like an unbiased source.

 

[The General]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

and here we go again.....

Hasn't this been posted about 45 times in this thread?

The process has been posted a ton - but confirmation that the refs measured the ball before game and didn't just do a spot check - is new.

Still just what MMQB "sources" say but if right somebody for sure let the air out.

And, most say would agree there is no way some ball boy would do this it on his own.

I wouldnt call that confirmation. Aside from an anonymous source, the actual wording used would be critical, and who the source is would be relevant to how careful their language is.

If the NFL simply concluded that the balls were examined and found to be correct, thats a long way from the balls being metered. We dont know. Until someone comes out and says the balls were measured, I dont think this is by any means settled.

The process is supposed to include metering the ball.

The same website followed a crew around and filmed the whole process a while back. Probably about 12 people watched it originally. It shows them sticking a meter thing in the ball and checking it.

Bunch have people have in here have been saying it: If they confirm they metered the ball, then they are lower during the 1st half, 11 of 12 balls, then someone intentionally did it. People will argue that it's no big deal in terms of the actual game, some say it does matter. Whatever.

What would big a big deal is that a team intentionally gets around a rule, and then lies about it. Which you can say unless you think some ballboy is doing this on his own.

 

[12punch]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

could I also just quote this again for all the people crying when bb benches ridley for fumbling

 

[The Flying Elvis]

No penalties for Pats?

http://offthemonster.com/2015/01/this-just-in-sources-confirm-patriots-will-not-face-penaltiesfines/

I mean as a Pats fan I would be happy with this but are we really taking this is as a reliable source? It's basically if I just created a blog.

 

[shader]

Ross Tucker ‏@RossTuckerNFL 1m1 minute ago

If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?

I really think that's how it really already works. That's why they don't put a gauge on the balls in the pre-game check. It looks like a football, it feels like a football, let's play football. Then the Colts tried to use the letter of the law to jack with the Pats and here we are.

You want a scandal? Put a meter on the IQ of sports media.

Unfortunately there aren't enough of you in this thread making this much sense.

Its an equipment issue people. Refs didn't check as good as they should have. This entire scandal is media driven silliness, and its frankly a shame how many of you were so quick to grab your pitchforks and tinfoil hats.

I would imagine that's the case. I also think it's not a big deal. If Eli can soak his footballs and perform a massive amount of work on them to get them "perfect", I don't see why this is a big deal.

But...we have reports from Peter King that say that all the balls were tested at a specific psi. If that's true, it's not an equipment issue anymore, unfortunately.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

From MMQB: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

The condition of the footballs on Sunday is coming into clarity.


This is significant, because it takes weather-as-a-factor out of the possible reasons why New England’s footballs could have lost air while the balls on Indianapolis’ sidelines would have stayed fully inflated. I am told reliably that:

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

The conclusion: There is little doubt the New England footballs were tampered with by a human.

As was obvious all along.

 

[shader]

Weren't they discovered at halftime, and the officials re-inflated them at that time?

They still scored 28 points in the second half. Take away the 1st half points and the Pats still win 28-7

This is a joke.

Everyone knows that the PSI pressure had no impact in the Pats-Colts game.

 

[Tango]

No penalties for Pats?

http://offthemonster.com/2015/01/this-just-in-sources-confirm-patriots-will-not-face-penaltiesfines/

That does seem like an unbiased source.

Ha, true. Pats fans on Twitter sure are loving it though.

Through all of this I've learned a lot about Pats fans.

 

[the moops]

why allow them to pick the balls at all.

let the ref's open up a sealed box and play with them, tough noogies.

spoiled brats man...

can you imagine MLB pitchers choosing there own baseballs?

a ridiculous practice by the NFL that needs to end, maybe the D will get a fair chance slanted there way for a change... over these prima donna qb's that get every single rule change the past 15 years...

Pitchers routinely toss balls aside that don't feel right to them

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Weren't they discovered at halftime, and the officials re-inflated them at that time?

They still scored 28 points in the second half. Take away the 1st half points and the Pats still win 28-7

This is a joke.

Everyone knows that the PSI pressure had no impact in the Pats-Colts game.

Even the "salty haters" are admitting that.

 

[The General]

Weren't they discovered at halftime, and the officials re-inflated them at that time?

They still scored 28 points in the second half. Take away the 1st half points and the Pats still win 28-7

This is a joke.

This thread is impossible to read through but it's been said a lot. Most people agree that this doesn't matter in the scheme of that game, some say it would help and the previous game was very close. Whatever. Remove that from this.

The fact that they would change the ball after it is deemed good, then cover it up / lie about it, is the cheating / big deal part.

If the balls were properly measured before game - still waiting to see if that can definitively be said - then lower just a couple of hours later someone did that on purpose. There is no way some ball boy did that on his own.

Don't see how this is so complicated.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

could I also just quote this again for all the people crying when bb benches ridley for fumbling

Just for the record, 12punch is a Kool Aid Larry alias correct? KAL seems to have disappeared and you sound almost identical to him.

 

[[icon]]

The process is supposed to include metering the ball.

The same website followed a crew around and filmed the whole process a while back. Probably about 12 people watched it originally. It shows them sticking a meter thing in the ball and checking it.

The process is SUPPOSED To include metering every ball. In practice, given the number of QBs who are on record discussing high/low pressure balls, and the teams allegedly upset that this was brought to light SEEMS to indicate this was an unenforced "grey area".

I have no doubt that when doing a piece on "how to pre-check the balls" in front of TV cameras, the officials gave the full dog and pony show. I also have little doubt that officials do NOT go through that whole process before every game when there aren't cameras on them.

 

[mbuehner]

The process is supposed to include metering the ball.


The same website followed a crew around and filmed the whole process a while back. Probably about 12 people watched it originally. It shows them sticking a meter thing in the ball and checking it.

Bunch have people have in here have been saying it: If they confirm they metered the ball, then they are lower during the 1st half, 11 of 12 balls, then someone intentionally did it. People will argue that it's no big deal in terms of the actual game, some say it does matter. Whatever.

What would big a big deal is that a team intentionally gets around a rule, and then lies about it. Which you can say unless you think some ballboy is doing this on his own.

Theyre SUPPOSED to, yes. The Bears ball ball interview claimed they usually didnt. The video showed the refs fumbling around with the gauges, which is odd if they use them 40odd times a week.

IF they were definitively metered before the game, this is a serious scandal. If they were not, or the NFL doesnt confirm it, the best assumption is that the werent measured, and they probably dont get measured very often.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Weren't they discovered at halftime, and the officials re-inflated them at that time?

They still scored 28 points in the second half. Take away the 1st half points and the Pats still win 28-7

This is a joke.

Everyone knows that the PSI pressure had no impact in the Pats-Colts game.

Thank you. Jesus if one more Pats fan comes out of the woodwork to say OMGLOLZ we would have killed the Colts anyways....it's maddening.

 

[12punch]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

could I also just quote this again for all the people crying when bb benches ridley for fumbling

Just for the record, 12punch is a Kool Aid Larry alias correct? KAL seems to have disappeared and you sound almost identical to him.

thx, I'll take that as a compliment

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Not sure if this was already posted, but this is an interesting article on ball security and NE as a massive outlier:

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932

could I also just quote this again for all the people crying when bb benches ridley for fumbling

Just for the record, 12punch is a Kool Aid Larry alias correct? KAL seems to have disappeared and you sound almost identical to him.

thx, I'll take that as a compliment

Haha ok, just confirming. Was curious why you switched.

 

[mbuehner]

My best guess is that the NFL never comes out and says definitively whether those balls were metered, and this whole thing just sorta fades away.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

Worth posting every couple pages or so.

 

[randall146]

The pattern of cheating has been long established. Only a fool or fanatic could not see that.

I don't want to rehash this whole ridiculous thread, but what pattern are you talking about? A pattern would require at least 2 and generally 3 incidents. What "cheating" episodes are you referring to except Spygate (which was really rule-breaking more than cheating)?

What does that even mean? They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage. To me that is the definition of cheating. How do you define it?

They openly broke a rule about where you could tape the other team's signals from. They didn't hide it. They didn't tape anything they weren't allowed to tape. They didn't get an unfair advantage. They broke the rule because Belichick was stupid and stubborn and wanted to flaunt being the smartest guy in the room. They got punished because Belichick didn't easily cooperate with the investigation and insisted on pressing his mis-interpretation of the rule.

 

[KarmaPolice]

A couple of things I'm not buying

#1 Brady and BB had no idea, that's BS; BB is the ultra control freak and I'm sure Brady knew that the balls felt different. There are retired QBs on NFL Live proving that an experienced hand can tell the difference.

Is this a Bill thing, or do you think that HCs are into every detail of what is going in the stadium on game day.

I just don't understand why people wouldn't believe a coach that said they would have no idea what is going on with the equipment on game day. I mean, forget game plan and last minute adjustments, let's get down to the field to check those ball psis, cleat length, grass length, temperature of the visiting team's locker room, etc, etc.. Even Qbs that are skeptical about Brady saying he had no clue are saying that no coaches were involved in the ball process but them and the equipment team.

People just want to see Bill fry.

NOTHING happens in that stadium without BB knowing about it. Sal Pal commented on Colin cowherds show that when he was there reporting in the past every time they knew exactly where he was at every second and he himself doesn't believe for one second that BB had no idea what goes on there.

so tight security on members of the press at the stadium = BB personally knowing EVERYTHING that goes on in the stadium on game day?? He must be a deity.

 

[12punch]

here's an experiment for all you guys asking for experiments

 

[shader]

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

Worth posting every couple pages or so.

And Brady and Belicheck said they knew nothing about it. Unless the NFL has proof that they measured the PSI of the balls, the official that tested the balls is one of 3 or 4 people who could be lying here. We've seen the process of testing the balls. It's a guy with a pump putting the balls into a sink.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

Worth posting every couple pages or so.

Peter King could be spot on and I'm sure he has unnamed sources from the NFL offices. However, I would have to imagine the Goodell isn't happy with any leaks on the matter but my guess is he would go absolutely ballistic over any leaks that stated the NFL failed to follow proper procedures. Again, not saying the people talking to King don't have valid information but there is simply no way those sources would ever provide information that stated the refs didn't follow proper procedures.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

The pattern of cheating has been long established. Only a fool or fanatic could not see that.

I don't want to rehash this whole ridiculous thread, but what pattern are you talking about? A pattern would require at least 2 and generally 3 incidents. What "cheating" episodes are you referring to except Spygate (which was really rule-breaking more than cheating)?

What does that even mean? They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage. To me that is the definition of cheating. How do you define it?

They openly broke a rule about where you could tape the other team's signals from. They didn't hide it. They didn't tape anything they weren't allowed to tape. They didn't get an unfair advantage. They broke the rule because Belichick was stupid and stubborn and wanted to flaunt being the smartest guy in the room. They got punished because Belichick didn't easily cooperate with the investigation and insisted on pressing his mis-interpretation of the rule.

Nobody will ever know the truth about that incident because the league wasn't transparent about the investigation.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

Worth posting every couple pages or so.

Peter King could be spot on and I'm sure he has unnamed sources from the NFL offices. However, I would have to imagine the Goodell isn't happy with any leaks on the matter but my guess is he would go absolutely ballistic over any leaks that stated the NFL failed to follow proper procedures. Again, not saying the people talking to King don't have valid information but there is simply no way those sources would ever provide information that stated the refs didn't follow proper procedures.

King is such an NFL toady I always assume anything he prints was written by the PR guys on Madison Avenue. Would be surprised if his sources weren't NFL officialdom.

 

[The General]

The process is supposed to include metering the ball.

The same website followed a crew around and filmed the whole process a while back. Probably about 12 people watched it originally. It shows them sticking a meter thing in the ball and checking it.

The process is SUPPOSED To include metering every ball. In practice, given the number of QBs who are on record discussing high/low pressure balls, and the teams allegedly upset that this was brought to light SEEMS to indicate this was an unenforced "grey area".

I have no doubt that when doing a piece on "how to pre-check the balls" in front of TV cameras, the officials gave the full dog and pony show. I also have little doubt that officials do NOT go through that whole process before every game when there aren't cameras on them.

Yup. Exactly what I think.

It's just worth pointing out to people who keep acting as if this isn't an issue.

Can't see anyway they could prove this unless someone says something.

Even if refs say they checked it the process doesn't look too official, as you'd expect.

Will be different story next year for sure.

 

[randall146]

I think there's a huge psychological aspect to getting your balls just so you want them and thinking you can tell the difference, when my guess is in most cases, even professional qb's would not be able to in a blind test.

No way. A fully inflated ball from a "just enough" inflated ball feels very different in every sport. Even to a schlub like me. 12.5 vs 10.5 is a BIG difference.

It's a big difference if you have both balls and you are trying to compare. One will be obviously firmer than the other.

But, if the ref or QB are given a single ball, or a few of them pumped to the same PSI, are they going to be able to tell by feel whether they are above or below 12.5? I'd imagine quarterbacks have no idea what 12.5 "feels" like, or 10.5 feels like. What they know is whether they like the feel of the ball they are holding or not. I'd guess it would have to be much lower for someone to know by feel that a ball was illegally low pressure.

For example, any of us can compare two significantly differently inflated car tires and feel which one is firmer. But if you walked up to random car and felt one tire you wouldn't be able to say by feel whether it was inflated to 25 psi or 32 psi or 36 psi.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

This isn't about deflating balls; this is about is there a culture of cheating that they'll do anything to get an edge.

"This is a bigger issue, and I think most people are missing the issue. It's an issue of if there is a culture of cheating at the organization that most people look at as the gold standard in this league. Is there a culture of cheating and breaking the rules?''

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12216634/former-carolina-panthers-gm-marty-hurney-angry-spygate-amid-new-england-patriots-controversy

If anything comes if this (and, who knows?) I think this dynamic will be a part of it. There almost have to be a chunk of NFL front offices and owners who are sick of this crap and don't want to deal with the uncertainty of knowing whether the Patriots are cheating them every time they play. Would love to be a fly on the wall as the owners talk about this.

 

[KarmaPolice]

This isn't about deflating balls; this is about is there a culture of cheating that they'll do anything to get an edge.



"This is a bigger issue, and I think most people are missing the issue. It's an issue of if there is a culture of cheating at the organization that most people look at as the gold standard in this league. Is there a culture of cheating and breaking the rules?''

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12216634/former-carolina-panthers-gm-marty-hurney-angry-spygate-amid-new-england-patriots-controversy

where a lot of people disagree us that:

1. Doing things to get an edge on your opponent <> cheating.

2. Being punished once 10 years ago <> a "culture" of cheating.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The process is supposed to include metering the ball.

The same website followed a crew around and filmed the whole process a while back. Probably about 12 people watched it originally. It shows them sticking a meter thing in the ball and checking it.

The process is SUPPOSED To include metering every ball. In practice, given the number of QBs who are on record discussing high/low pressure balls, and the teams allegedly upset that this was brought to light SEEMS to indicate this was an unenforced "grey area".

I have no doubt that when doing a piece on "how to pre-check the balls" in front of TV cameras, the officials gave the full dog and pony show. I also have little doubt that officials do NOT go through that whole process before every game when there aren't cameras on them.

Yup. Exactly what I think.

It's just worth pointing out to people who keep acting as if this isn't an issue.

Can't see anyway they could prove this unless someone says something.

Even if refs say they checked it the process doesn't look too official, as you'd expect.

Will be different story next year for sure.

The reports that the refs were aware of this issue before the game suggests that they might have been more diligent than usual (if they aren't always diligent -- maybe they are).

 

[yellowdog]

Does anyone really believe Bill doesn't know the process the balls go through pre-game to be approved for the game?

 

[TobiasFunke]

• The 12 footballs used in the first half for New England, and the 12 footballs used by the Colts, all left the officials’ locker room before the game at the prescribed pressure level of between 12.5 pounds per square inch and 13.5 psi.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge at halftime. I am told either 11 or 12 of New England’s footballs (ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported it was 11, and I hear it could have been all 12) had at least two pounds less pressure in them. All 12 Indianapolis footballs were at the prescribed level.

• All 24 footballs were checked by pressure gauge after the game. All 24 checked at the correct pressure—which is one of the last pieces of the puzzle the league needed to determine with certainty that something fishy happened with the Patriots footballs, because the Colts’ balls stayed correctly inflated for the nearly four hours. There had been reports quoting atmospheric experts that cold weather could deflate footballs. But if the Patriots’ balls were all low, and the Colts’ balls all legit, that quashes that theory.

Worth posting every couple pages or so.

Peter King could be spot on and I'm sure he has unnamed sources from the NFL offices. However, I would have to imagine the Goodell isn't happy with any leaks on the matter but my guess is he would go absolutely ballistic over any leaks that stated the NFL failed to follow proper procedures. Again, not saying the people talking to King don't have valid information but there is simply no way those sources would ever provide information that stated the refs didn't follow proper procedures.

King is such an NFL toady I always assume anything he prints was written by the PR guys on Madison Avenue. Would be surprised if his sources weren't NFL officialdom.

I agree, but the NFL's interest here would be to make this story go away so nobody doubts the integrity of its product in the run-up to the Super Bowl. This does the opposite.

 

[mbuehner]

here's an experiment for all you guys asking for experiments

Its interesting, but immersing it in water changed the external pressure, which is relevant to gauge pressure.