Patriots being investigated after Colts game (7 Viewers)

[Tango]

anyone hear Jim Miller's take on NFL Sirius XM today?

Patriots kicked the Colts' ### after halftime once the balls were all re-inflated.

it's a non-issue.

Pats cheated, they will take their fine and move on.

i can't believe what a huge deal a lot of you are trying to make this out to be.

Well if the great Jim Miller says so then there is no reason to discuss any further.

I do agree that the team and Brady will get fined and that will be the end of it. There is no way that pretty boy gets suspended.

Of course Miller is correct that the crime itself is not a huge deal. Something to be nicked for? Yes. But not a huge deal . HOWEVER, because of Brady's own actions the whole episode cannot be viewed as being solved with a slap on the wrist. The window for that opportunity for Brady closed in late January and he did not take advantage of it.

Instead, when confronted with this problem Brady tragically chose the wrong path. He chose to deny and cover up. The media dared him to raise the stakes and Brady made the poor choice to double-down on his "innocence", pass the buck to low-level employees, and continually deny.

The result? Jim Miller's point is hopelessly outdated and essentially useless. Brady should and will be punished with far more than a slap on the wrist.

 

[rockaction]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm already tired of the media narrative about cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

and fumble stats bear out.

Yes they do.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm

already tired of the media narrative about

cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip

and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out

of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

Let's accept your premise that a deflated ball is a competitive advantage. The NFL was alerted prior to the game about the issue. The game balls went missing and turn up with a Pats equipment employee yet the NFL decides to use the balls for the first half despite having 12 other

balls readily available. If people want to claim it was a competitive advantage then why aren't those same people screaming that the NFL compromised the integrity of the game by allowing those balls to be used?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm

already tired of the media narrative about

cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip

and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out

of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

Let's accept your premise that a deflated ball is a competitive advantage. The NFL was alertedprior to the game about the issue. The game balls went missing and turn up with a Pats equipment employee yet the NFL decides to use the balls for the first half despite having 12 other

balls readily available. If people want to claim it was a competitive advantage then why aren't those same people screaming that the NFL compromised the integrity of the game by allowing those balls to be used?

They didn't know the Pats had snuck off with them and tampered with them.

 

[massraider]

Of course Miller is correct that the crime itself is not a huge deal. Something to be nicked for? Yes. But not a huge deal . .

Yeah, yeah it is.

I agree with you that the cover up is what's really going to whack him, punishment-wise.

And in the case of the Colts game, I don't believe it affected anything much. The Colts are a flawed, finesse team with a great young QB. They have a lot of holes to fill.

BUT: Jim Miller is only correct if you assume that this was the only game the Patriots illegally tampered with footballs, or if you assume that there is no way their illegal footballs could have affected the outcomes of any games.

I happen to believe both of those assumptions are absurd, and one must be a fool to believe either one.

Regarding the first assumption: Two things make this difficult to believe that this was the first time that Brady's henchmen were illegally altering footballs: The text messages going back MONTHS, and the Colts telling the officials before the game. The Colts didn't guess correctly that one day, and you don't call yourself the Deflator, and make jokes about going to ESPN if this is your first rodeo in the bathroom with the bag o' balls.

Regarding the second assumption: Brady wanted the balls underinflated for a reason. Maybe he has small hands (bummer, Giselle :( ). Maybe it was easier to throw or easier to catch. But if the team was using illegal balls for a time before the Colts game, you truly have to be an idiot to not imagine a scenario where more throwable or catchable balls balls wouldn't affet the outcome of a game or three. And by the way, if you think the balls didn't matter, Tom Freaking Brady apparently disagrees with you.

A fair question becomes: Well, gee, how long has Tom been illegally altering the balls for his, and the Patriots benefit?

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

 

[amnesiac]

anyone hear Jim Miller's take on NFL Sirius XM today?

Patriots kicked the Colts' ### after halftime once the balls were all re-inflated.

it's a non-issue.

Pats cheated, they will take their fine and move on.

i can't believe what a huge deal a lot of you are trying to make this out to be.

I think you used to be right and the same sentiment problem shows up 100 or more times in pages 1-10 of this long thread.

But there is something else at work here that has moved this way beyond the outcome of the Colts game and the superbowl. Unfortunately for Brady and the Patriots, not only are they guilty of the minor and probably unnecessary cheating, but THEY are the ones who have made this into a much bigger deal.

Weirdly it has become acceptable and almost admirable for an athlete to come out and admit to wrong doing, accept the consequences of his actions and move on without the hot spotlight of the media. We may not like them or their actions but they get a pass and soon they are forgotten and we get back to putting them on the pedestal . But lie to us and carry on as if you are too great to be touched - now that brings on a completely different reaction among fans, commissioners and even fellow athletes. Look at the long line of athletes who refused to admit their wrong doings even though the evidence piled up... Pete Rose, countless Olympic athletes, Armstrong, Bonds, Clemens, ARod. I'm not comparing their actions, I'm comparing their cover-ups and persistent lies to protect themselves. If Brady responded like Rogers, acknowledging ball tampering as if it was nothing, everyone would say what you and countless others have said - that it's not a big deal, look what happened in the second half of the game when they used inflated balls. Give him the $25K fine for tampering and move on. But he lied and covered it up. And then he had to keep lying. And then blame the accusers. And then welcome an investigation only to fail to fully cooperate. And then to try to invalidate the conclusions of the investigation.. and on and on and on we go. It's like an addiction to a bad script. Hopefully Brady can just own up to the evidence take a 2-game suspension and a stupid fine and move on. And the rest of us will have to listen to the damn Pats fans gloat about how Brady handled the situation so well and he is the second coming of Jesus Christ, both human and divine... yahdah yahdah yahdah...

fair point. i'm just amazed this was investigated publicly in the first place. maybe that's why they've had such a strong reaction?

 

[rockaction]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm

already tired of the media narrative about

cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip

and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out

of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

Let's accept your premise that a deflated ball is a competitive advantage. The NFL was alertedprior to the game about the issue. The game balls went missing and turn up with a Pats equipment employee yet the NFL decides to use the balls for the first half despite having 12 other

balls readily available. If people want to claim it was a competitive advantage then why aren't those same people screaming that the NFL compromised the integrity of the game by allowing those balls to be used?

WEEI was grasping at straws and arguing this line of argument all day yesterday. I think the officials began to sub the balls out in the first half. There were a lot of moving parts to this.

http://deadspin.com/colts-player-officials-stopped-using-patriots-balls-in-1681329925

 

[massraider]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm

already tired of the media narrative about

cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip

and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out

of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

Let's accept your premise that a deflated ball is a competitive advantage. The NFL was alertedprior to the game about the issue. The game balls went missing and turn up with a Pats equipment employee yet the NFL decides to use the balls for the first half despite having 12 other

balls readily available. If people want to claim it was a competitive advantage then why aren't those same people screaming that the NFL compromised the integrity of the game by allowing those balls to be used?

There are plenty of people that are wondering how the officials let those balls be used for a half.

The officials mistakenly assumed that once the balls were checked, the Patriots would use those balls in good faith.

By the way the NFL didn't compromise the integrity. You're confusing the NFL with Tom Brady.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

That's what you guys are going with? I mean, I knew you would attack the source without considering the merits of the report, but I figured you would focus on them having an office in NYC and are therefore salty Jet or Giant fans.

I don't know who these 'you guys' are supposed to be --- I'm one person, and I referenced the los angeles times.

but I guess there are pats fans all over the world, considering how awesome they are.

According to the Los Angeles Times, "Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense."

In 2009, the Amazon Defense Coalition criticized an Exponent study commissioned by the energy company Chevron that dumping oil waste didn't cause cancer because Chevron's largest shareholder was a director on Exponent's board. Exponent "doubted" the director knew of the study. Controversially, Exponent research argued that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. The firm was also criticized for assisting industry efforts to reduce chromium regulation.

....

"The first thing you know is that when Exponent is brought in to help a company, that company is in big trouble,"

<--- edit

Does any of this matter, once the text messages come into play?

of all the reputable, legit, neutral people they could have hired for this, they chose some shady firm best known for manufacturing whatever desired results you might be looking for?

no, why would that matter?

The article does not say that they are a shady firm, it says that paid mouthpieces, like attorneys and their consulting engineers from the losing side in legal and advocacy battles would like you to believe so, yet if they could in any way prove that this is so the firm would not be allowed to present evidence in court.

It is amazing how insightful and critical you are on Taintriots criticism, yet you will accept as gospel any tripe needed to justify their ongoing and systematic culture of cheating.

 

[rockaction]

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

What's amazing about Brady, according to several things I've seen (and this may not be accurate, but it was on Olbermann last night), is that he denied even knowing about the psi rule when he had lobbied previously for the rule to be changed. How do you not know about psi standards after you've lobbied the NFL for a rule that would change control of the footballs regarding that very psi standard in the first place?

It beggars belief.

 

[massraider]

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

What's amazing about Brady, according to several things I've seen (and this may not be accurate, but it was on Olbermann last night), is that he denied even knowing about the psi rule when he had lobbied previously for the rule to be changed. How do you not know about psi standards after you've lobbied the NFL for a rule that would change control of the footballs regarding that very psi standard in the first place?

It beggars belief.

A salty hater could wonder if he hasn't been cheating and inserting illegal balls for 8 years.

 

[amnesiac]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

i agree that Brady did not handle this situation well.

but i will also say that the timing of this investigation was extremely poor, and that is on the NFL.

imo, this entire thing should've been handled behind the scenes.

 

[rockaction]

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

What's amazing about Brady, according to several things I've seen (and this may not be accurate, but it was on Olbermann last night), is that he denied even knowing about the psi rule when he had lobbied previously for the rule to be changed. How do you not know about psi standards after you've lobbied the NFL for a rule that would change control of the footballs regarding that very psi standard in the first place?

It beggars belief.

A salty hater could wonder if he hasn't been cheating and inserting illegal balls for 8 years.

That would be some high blood pressure salt right there.

 

[massraider]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

 

[massraider]

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

What's amazing about Brady, according to several things I've seen (and this may not be accurate, but it was on Olbermann last night), is that he denied even knowing about the psi rule when he had lobbied previously for the rule to be changed. How do you not know about psi standards after you've lobbied the NFL for a rule that would change control of the footballs regarding that very psi standard in the first place?

It beggars belief.

A salty hater could wonder if he hasn't been cheating and inserting illegal balls for 8 years.

That would be some high blood pressure salt right there.

They call me: Beef Jerky.

 

[amnesiac]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them. so it's about 50/50.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

"I've never been a part of a situation – and I certainly don't know of any – where guys were asking the equipment guys who handle the footballs to alter them once the game officials evaluated them," he said. "That, to me, is the thing that's the biggest difference when people start talking about, 'Well, everyone's doing this stuff.' That's just not true."

 

[massraider]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Not for nothing, a QB's opinion on this isn't much more legit here than anyone else.

Except for one QB: Tom Brady. And Tom Brady's opinion was that illegal footballs were very important to him.

 

[Godsbrother]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

Or Troy Aikman's

http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/Troy-Aikman-knew-Patriots-QB-Tom-Brady-had-hand-in-deflategate-37147559

 

[massraider]

Jon Stewart on DeflateGate

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I'd like to ask an honest question.

My belief has been that Brady likes the balls below the minimum allowed threshhold, and his guys know this, and prepare the balls below that threshhold and submit them like that to the refs hoping that they pass inspection. Basically what Rodgers says he does, except he likes them harder. Sometimes the refs pass them, sometimes not (one of the texts is #####ing that the refs pumped the balls up to 16). For the AFC Championship game, that's what the Patriots did - submitted prepared balls below the miinimum and hoped to get them passed.

My question is - what is in the Wells report that says that that could not be the case?

To me, there is a VERY big difference between a) submitting the balls underinflated and hoping to get them approved, and b) manipulating the balls AFTER they pass inspection. If the latter happened and Brady can be shown to have known that that was happening, I think he should get a vacation. If a) happened, I think this continues to be a ton of noise about absolutely nothing.

Nothing I've read in the text messages indicates to me that they were deflating the balls after the inspection. The NFL didn't even bother to record the pressure of the balls before the Colts game, so you can't figure out if they depressurized so much that it had to have been from tampering (the scientific consultants say asmuch in the excerp I read). This explanation would be consistent with Brady being shady in his behaviour because scenario a) is still technically against the rules.

So am I missing something? Is there something that gives any kind of evidence that the balls were tampered with after being inspected? Serious question.

Well the texts messages seem to indicate that the Pats equipment guys were prepared, with a needle, to let the air out of the balls, not to put air in. The Pats equipment guy took the balls from the supervision of the Officials without permission and against protocol. He, the guy with the needle, who had regularly been demanding and getting payola from Brady disappeared with the balls for up to 20 minutes causing consternation among the Officials. "Deflator" as he called himself then went down a hallway, into a bathroom that was lockable, caught on camera btw, to use the urinal in a bathroom without a urinal. 100 seconds later he emerged from the bathroom, a time frame which ahs been shown to be adequate to accomplish deflation. The balls, which had just been adjusted to proper inflation by Officials on alert to do so then were put in play. They were subject to the forces of the Ideal Gas Law. At halftime they were retested. It turned out that the Ideal Gas Law worked differently on the Patriots side of the field than the Colts. Patriots fans and MIT students are studying this anomalous effect, hoping for a Noble prize.

 

[GoBirds]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them. so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

 

[FUBAR]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

Lost what little respect I had for Troy Aikman.

guy gets suspended a year for trying to cripple people not nearly as bad as some other guy's football a pound light.

aikman be sharkin'

There's a certain logic where an Illegal advantage in a game trumps almost all else.

Not saying i agree with it, but there's a logic.

yeah, what advantage could possibly be gained by knocking an opposing player out of the game?

shark pool be sharkin'

My mind was on the radio talk show host I was listening to who was talking about there being "no way this is equal to domestic violence or drug use" and saying that anyone who thinks he deserves 6 games or more is crazy - referring to Whitney Mercilus's comments about Brady deserving an 8 game suspension.

 

[rockaction]

Jon Stewart on DeflateGate

The NYT headline send up had me in tears and the Gronk interlude was pretty funny. That NYC Daily Show audience was looking at Gronk like he was at the zoo. "Oh look, honey, a ridiculously authentic meathead jock!"

eta* Also, the bit about if one of the guys was nicknamed "The Deflator," what was the other guy's nickname -- "Johnny Cheats At Football?" had me

 

[randall146]

I'd like to ask an honest question.

My belief has been that Brady likes the balls below the minimum allowed threshhold, and his guys know this, and prepare the balls below that threshhold and submit them like that to the refs hoping that they pass inspection. Basically what Rodgers says he does, except he likes them harder. Sometimes the refs pass them, sometimes not (one of the texts is #####ing that the refs pumped the balls up to 16). For the AFC Championship game, that's what the Patriots did - submitted prepared balls below the miinimum and hoped to get them passed.

My question is - what is in the Wells report that says that that could not be the case?

To me, there is a VERY big difference between a) submitting the balls underinflated and hoping to get them approved, and b) manipulating the balls AFTER they pass inspection. If the latter happened and Brady can be shown to have known that that was happening, I think he should get a vacation. If a) happened, I think this continues to be a ton of noise about absolutely nothing.

Nothing I've read in the text messages indicates to me that they were deflating the balls after the inspection. The NFL didn't even bother to record the pressure of the balls before the Colts game, so you can't figure out if they depressurized so much that it had to have been from tampering (the scientific consultants say asmuch in the excerp I read). This explanation would be consistent with Brady being shady in his behaviour because scenario a) is still technically against the rules.

So am I missing something? Is there something that gives any kind of evidence that the balls were tampered with after being inspected? Serious question.

If you believe the refs who say they inspected the balls, then the deflation had to have happened after the inspection. Now, I don't believe that the refs generally made a big deal about inspecting and gauging every ball every game, but the refs claim to have inspected the balls for this game makes sense, because they had been notified repeatedly pre-game about the potential issue, and there are emails that confirm it

Also, if the deflation happened before inspection, it wouldn't be "deflation", it would be submitting underinflated balls and hoping they pass.

 

[amnesiac]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them. so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

lol, nice one. the other one that stuck out to me was Aaron Rogers.

 

[SacramentoBob]

So as predicted there is no damning evidence of any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats. That's all I really care about. "More likely than not to have done something" means nothing to me. We have the Pats fans who think it's a joke and the haters who had the noose hanging going in. Each side is going to believe what they want. It's like a bunch of liberals and conservatives arguing, there will be no common ground. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Carry on.

Did we already get a winner for the delusional fan post?

It's a contender.

I reread D1 and espnespn stands out.

Was wondering where some of the blowhards from earlier in the thread have been. Still a couple hiding. They have to come in and troll as there is no way to backtrack some of the crazy bs earlier in this thread. Makes for great entertainment.

Yup, they're completely locked in. Their egos won't allow them to backtrack and admit they were wrong.

 

[cstu]

Good news:

No further back than 2006, when Brady pushed for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls.

In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

Brady said at the time that he appreciated the opportunity to address the league’s Competition Committee and get a rule change that he felt would be advantageous to himself and other quarterbacks.

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel at the time. “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

What's amazing about Brady, according to several things I've seen (and this may not be accurate, but it was on Olbermann last night), is that he denied even knowing about the psi rule when he had lobbied previously for the rule to be changed. How do you not know about psi standards after you've lobbied the NFL for a rule that would change control of the footballs regarding that very psi standard in the first place?

It beggars belief.

All he had to do at the press conference was tell the truth.

Instead, his reputation is forever in the

 

[GoBirds]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

lol, nice one.the other one that stuck out to me was Aaron Rogers.

Nothing compared to Jim Miller's 11:40 pm segment, surprised everyone wasn't tuned in.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I'd like to ask an honest question.

My belief has been that Brady likes the balls below the minimum allowed threshhold, and his guys know this, and prepare the balls below that threshhold and submit them like that to the refs hoping that they pass inspection. Basically what Rodgers says he does, except he likes them harder. Sometimes the refs pass them, sometimes not (one of the texts is #####ing that the refs pumped the balls up to 16). For the AFC Championship game, that's what the Patriots did - submitted prepared balls below the miinimum and hoped to get them passed.

My question is - what is in the Wells report that says that that could not be the case?

To me, there is a VERY big difference between a) submitting the balls underinflated and hoping to get them approved, and b) manipulating the balls AFTER they pass inspection. If the latter happened and Brady can be shown to have known that that was happening, I think he should get a vacation. If a) happened, I think this continues to be a ton of noise about absolutely nothing.

Nothing I've read in the text messages indicates to me that they were deflating the balls after the inspection. The NFL didn't even bother to record the pressure of the balls before the Colts game, so you can't figure out if they depressurized so much that it had to have been from tampering (the scientific consultants say asmuch in the excerp I read). This explanation would be consistent with Brady being shady in his behaviour because scenario a) is still technically against the rules.

So am I missing something? Is there something that gives any kind of evidence that the balls were tampered with after being inspected? Serious question.

Well the texts messages seem to indicate that the Pats equipment guys were prepared, with a needle, to let the air out of the balls, not to put air in. The Pats equipment guy took the balls from the supervision of the Officials without permission and against protocol. He, the guy with the needle, who had regularly been demanding and getting payola from Brady disappeared with the balls for up to 20 minutes causing consternation among the Officials. "Deflator" as he called himself then went down a hallway, into a bathroom that was lockable, caught on camera btw, to use the urinal in a bathroom without a urinal. 100 seconds later he emerged from the bathroom, a time frame which ahs been shown to be adequate to accomplish deflation. The balls, which had just been adjusted to proper inflation by Officials on alert to do so then were put in play. They were subject to the forces of the Ideal Gas Law. At halftime they were retested. It turned out that the Ideal Gas Law worked differently on the Patriots side of the field than the Colts. Patriots fans and MIT students are studying this anomalous effect, hoping for a Nobel prize.

This post should shut down any Pats homer trolling, but sadly it won't.

 

[massraider]

So when this turns out to be false should we be expecting to see a thread about it?

Yes.

 

[cstu]

Second hand smoke causes a lot of things but it hasn't been found to have a large effect on cancer:

A large prospective cohort study of more than 76,000 women confirmed a strong association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer but found no link between the disease and secondhand smoke.

“Passive smoking has many downstream health effects—asthma, upper respiratory infections, other pulmonary diseases, cardiovascular disease—but only borderline increased risk of lung cancer,” said Patel. “The strongest reason to avoid passive cigarette smoke is to change societal behavior: to not live in a society where smoking is a norm.

“It’s very reassuring that passive smoke in the childhood home doesn’t increase the risk of lung cancer [in this study],” said Patel. “But it doesn’t decrease the need for us to have strong antismoking measures. There are very few never-smokers in smoking families.”

ETA:

Does exposure to secondhand smoke cause cancer?

Yes. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. National Toxicology Program, the U.S. Surgeon General, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer have all classified secondhand smoke as a known human carcinogen (a cancer-causing agent) (1, 3, 5, 7).

Inhaling secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in nonsmoking adults (4, 5). Approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths occur each year among adult nonsmokers in the United States as a result of exposure to secondhand smoke (2). The U.S. Surgeon General estimates that living with a smoker increases a nonsmoker’s chances of developing lung cancer by 20 to 30 percent (4).

from the NATIONAL CANCER institute --- they maybe know a thing or two about cancer

Secondhand Smoke Causes Lung Cancer

Secondhand smoke causes lung cancer in adults who have never smoked.4

• Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or at work increase their risk of developing lung cancer by 20–30%.2
• Secondhand smoke causes more than 7,300 lung cancer deaths among U.S. nonsmokers each year.4
• Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke are inhaling many of the same cancer-causing substances and poisons as smokers.2,3,4
• Even brief secondhand smoke exposure can damage cells in ways that set the cancer process in motion.4
• As with active smoking, the longer the duration and the higher the level of exposure to secondhand smoke, the greater the risk of developing lung cancer.4

from the CDC

Secondhand smoke causes cancer

from the AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETYoh, but wait..........cstu on footballguys doesn't think so --- I'll e-mail those guys your corrections.

salty trolls in usual form, I see, even after a couple months hibernation.

shark pool be sharkin'

From the Surgeon General on the CDC link you gave it far from clear that second hand smoke has a major impact on cancer. It even admits that cohort studies don't show an effect. It also shows an increase of 1-15% - that a wide range that tells me the date is not very clear, especially when the 2006 report said there wasn't sufficient evidence to conclude a causal association.

Summary and Review of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke

The 2006 Surgeon General’s report on secondhand cigarette smoke concluded that there was suggestive but

not sufficient evidence to conclude there was a causal association between exposure to secondhand smoke and

breast cancer. It also noted that the evidence was mixed and that the positive association was observed primarily

among premenopausal women in case-control studies. Since the 2006 report, 5 new cohort and 10 case-control

studies have been reported for the association of passive smoking with breast cancer. Additionally, updates have

been reported for 2 cohort studies and 1 case-control study. In general, the new RRs are lower than those previously reported.

For the most part, it continues to be true that case-control studies find statistically significantly

increased risk of breast cancer from all or most measures of exposure, while cohort studies do not. However, the case-control studies are more heterogeneous than the cohort studies across all exposure measures.

The three broadest categories of secondhand smoke exposure, Adult—any source, Ever

in lifetime, and Most comprehensive, are associated with significant increased risks ranging from 1–15% (Table

6.25S). However, the corresponding estimates for the most restricted sensitivity analyses are not statistically

significant, with risks ranging from 3–4% (Table 6.25S).

 

[massraider]

Bill Polian on ESPN now. Very interesting stuff, when trying to suss out a suspension.

• This has nothing to do with the CBA. This violation attacks the integrity of the game, and everyone here is really at the mercy of Troy Vincent/Goodell here.
• Precedent for this is the Ray Farmer suspension (4 games) and Rich McKay-minor suspension but important note here-he was suspended even tho he didn't know, because it was under his authority. This becomes important if thinking about draft picks, and Bill getting suspended.
• Polian believe that this violation is much worse than either of those violations. The Farmer thing didn't provide a competitive advantage, just a dangerous precedent.
• He believes suspensions, fines, and draft picks are all on the table.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

@ "Johnny Cheats-at-Football."

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Polian believe that this violation is much worse than either of those violations. The Farmer thing didn't provide a competitive advantage, just a dangerous precedent.

Salty hater!

Except that he's right. Even if you think it's a small advantage, it was an effort to cheat the game on the field. The NFL's probably going to come down hard on that.

 

[Tango]

Bill Polian on ESPN now. Very interesting stuff, when trying to suss out a suspension.

• This has nothing to do with the CBA. This violation attacks the integrity of the game, and everyone here is really at the mercy of Troy Vincent/Goodell here.
• Precedent for this is the Ray Farmer suspension (4 games) and Rich McKay-minor suspension but important note here-he was suspended even tho he didn't know, because it was under his authority. This becomes important if thinking about draft picks, and Bill getting suspended.
• Polian believe that this violation is much worse than either of those violations. The Farmer thing didn't provide a competitive advantage, just a dangerous precedent.
• He believes suspensions, fines, and draft picks are all on the table.

Regarding the CBA and the contracts every NFL player signs and their duties as voluntary employees, read Mike Florio's column here.

He makes the point that it is safe to say that Brady and Gostkowski will get punished for violations.

 

[The General]

There's no way I'm searching a 155 page thread.

Who are the QBs, past and present, that inspected the balls and didn't like the "feel" of the leather so they switched em' out?

It's supposed to be these are the game balls-ya can't change them.

It would be odd that this didn't set off a radar with people like hmmm is the replacement ball tainted? but these are brand new so it's meh who cares.

People are forgetting how quirky odd, almost superstitious, quarterbacks are about the balls. 50 of us could look at 20 new balls and say they're great. Peyton or Eli could come along and say 10 stink, 5 are meh, those 5 are good. They're finding fault with brand new out of the package footballs here.

None of this is correct.

QB's are allowed to get the balls the way they want due to a rule change pushed by Brady and others. The balls need to meet some league requirements, are checked by Refs before the game, and then given the OK to be used.

Brady and his little minions appeared to then steal the balls and change them and got caught. Brady then lied his ### off, Coach Bill gave us a science report, and Kraft acted like a little baby demanding an apology for this being looked into.

 

[massraider]

Bill Polian on ESPN now. Very interesting stuff, when trying to suss out a suspension.

• This has nothing to do with the CBA. This violation attacks the integrity of the game, and everyone here is really at the mercy of Troy Vincent/Goodell here.
• Precedent for this is the Ray Farmer suspension (4 games) and Rich McKay-minor suspension but important note here-he was suspended even tho he didn't know, because it was under his authority. This becomes important if thinking about draft picks, and Bill getting suspended.
• Polian believe that this violation is much worse than either of those violations. The Farmer thing didn't provide a competitive advantage, just a dangerous precedent.
• He believes suspensions, fines, and draft picks are all on the table.

Regarding the CBA and the contracts every NFL player signs and their duties as voluntary employees, read Mike Florio's column here.

He makes the point that it is safe to say that Brady and Gostkowski will get punished for violations.

“Stephen Gostkowski declined a similar request for pertinent electronic communications, but, unlike Brady, we did not press our request to him because his communications were not viewed as central to our work,” Wells writes.

#######' kickers get no respect.

Gostkowski was probably all like, "Yeah, that's right, you can't have my phone, no way man! You can have my phone when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers, you hear me? I'm taking this fight to the people, man!!"

Ted Wells:

 

[12punch]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them. so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

 

[BustedKnuckles]

this is the equivalent of deciding during rush hour to drive down the breakdown lane ....a dumb decision ...made even dumber after getting caught....but nobody got hurt and its not a big deal...pay a fine and dont do it again

 

[The General]

Jim ####### Miller says it's not a big deal. CASE CLOSED.

 

[12punch]

Bill Polian on ESPN now. Very interesting stuff, when trying to suss out a suspension.

• This has nothing to do with the CBA. This violation attacks the integrity of the game, and everyone here is really at the mercy of Troy Vincent/Goodell here.
• Precedent for this is the Ray Farmer suspension (4 games) and Rich McKay-minor suspension but important note here-he was suspended even tho he didn't know, because it was under his authority. This becomes important if thinking about draft picks, and Bill getting suspended.
• Polian believe that this violation is much worse than either of those violations. The Farmer thing didn't provide a competitive advantage, just a dangerous precedent.
• He believes suspensions, fines, and draft picks are all on the table.

Regarding the CBA and the contracts every NFL player signs and their duties as voluntary employees, read Mike Florio's column here.

He makes the point that it is safe to say that Brady and Gostkowski will get punished for violations.

Stephen Gostkowski declined a similar request for pertinent electronic communications, but, unlike Brady, we did not press our request to him because his communications were not viewed as central to our work, Wells writes.

#######' kickers get no respect.

Gostkowski was probably all like, "Yeah, that's right, you can't have my phone, no way man! You can have my phone when you pry it from my cold, dead, fingers, you hear me? I'm taking this fight to the people, man!!"

Ted Wells:

That is ####### lol

Dude probably smashed it the minute he saw them in the hallway

 

[BigSteelThrill]

this is the equivalent of deciding during rush hour to drive down the breakdown lane ....a dumb decision ...made even dumber after getting caught....but nobody got hurt and its not a big deal...pay a fine and dont do it again

 

[massraider]

this is the equivalent of deciding during rush hour to drive down the breakdown lane ....a dumb decision ...made even dumber after getting caught....but nobody got hurt and its not a big deal...pay a fine and dont do it again

Honestly, how do we really know how big an affect it may have had in games previous to this?

 

[Tango]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

Of course Miller's somebody. Shall we list the credible people who think the opposite (or close to the opposite) of what Miller thinks? Will you call them nobody's?

Look...I think anyone who thinks this is a huge deal should also be pointing fingers at Brad Johnson, Aaron Rodgers, etc. and just about everyone else. But the problem for the Pats here is more complex than that, because:

(1) There are people in the league who used to work for the Patriots who think they push everything regarding ethics too far (farther than anyone else)...and were not talking about people with axes to grind.

(2) Brady stirred the hornets nest by telling John Harbaugh to "know the rules" following the playoff game

(3) The Colts apparently do have an axe to grind (there are many such bad spirits b/t NFL teams, the Colts/Pats is just one of them( and

were more than happy to pick up on Harbaugh's heads-up to them, combine it with their own complaints and pounce on it,

(4) Number 1-3 above are not big deals really...where this thing went off the rails is when the media, who is always starving for a he-said/she-said type of controversy, dared Brady to up the stakes and dig in with denials instead of taking responsibility for his general role in a minor violation. Brady stupidly took the bait and dug in. That's where the problem for the Pats got worse to the point of making Miller's comments about the deflation pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

this is the equivalent of deciding during rush hour to drive down the breakdown lane ....a dumb decision ...made even dumber after getting caught....but nobody got hurt and its not a big deal...pay a fine and dont do it again

No, this is the equivalent of being in a competition to get from point A to point B during rush hour, agreeing to abide by the rules of the road, conspiring with others to keep the breakdown lane clear, paying them for their efforts in doing so, and then using that lane to try to gain an advantage in the race, and afterwards lying through your teeth about it.

Keep working, you will get the hang of analogies in time. They can be tricky.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Pats fan. Whole thing is pretty damning. Makes you wonder what else the Pats are up to and haven't been caught at. Brady needs to sit 4 games imo, Pats docked a 1st round pick. Fines are a joke.

 

[The General]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

If it wasn't a big deal why wouldn't Brady just come out and say "Well, yes I changed the air pressure in the ball".

Ball pressure is not the point.

 

[Tango]

some people are comparing this to A-rod. I'd say that's not the case re the specific crime, but it is very similar when it comes to the lying part of this.

When it comes to admitting/owning this *or* lying about it:

There was the Giambi path or the A-rod path.

Brady chose the A-Rod path.

Bad choice.