Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

Even the Clintons are sick and tired of hearing about all of these Patriots scandals.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Wonder if Kraft is still expecting an apology. Talk about egg on your face. Report was worse than anyone anticipated.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Makes you wonder how many other "lines were crossed" over the years that they got away with.

At least they will be under constant scrutiny now (if they weren't before).

 

[timschochet]

Anyhow why not just have them forfeit the 2014 season, including the Super Bowl? That's what the NCAA would do.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

All the "salty haters" nonsense and Mr. Wizard scientific jackoffery aside, the bottom line is this :

A slightly deflated ball isn't that big a deal. Yes, it makes a difference. How much, who knows? It's all about Brady and his comfort level. On its face, it's not a huge transgression - put it in the pine tar/scuffed ball category. If Brady and/or Belichick had owned it right away, it probably would have lasted one news cycle and gone away. But they didn't. They figured it couldn't be proven (about which they were at least partially correct) and they remained defiant and maintained their innocence.

Now, you have this. Several things are obvious to the average NFL fan. To wit :

1) Someone associated with the Patriots fiddled with the balls after they were approved by the refs.

2) Brady at the very least knew about or tacitly approved said fiddling.

3) Brady lied about this publicly.

4) Belichick either lied about it or had no idea it was going on (hard to believe, but whatever. It's his ship.)

5) This isn't the first time this regime has been subject to a high-profile investigation of rule-breaking and found guilty.

Now the fallout of this will be a fine, a suspension, what have you. Probably not enough to affect New England's season too adversely and certainly won't hurt the parties involved in the wallet. The lasting damage is to the legacy of this franchise and particularly the Brady/Belichick regime. NFL fans will forever think these SB wins, all of them, are likely tainted with the dank, fetid smell of impropriety. This is something that chaps Patriot's fans collective buttocks, and believe me, I sympathize. I had to hear (and still do) about how the refs gifted my Steelers a Super Bowl in 2006, even though the bulk of the calls were later proven to be correct and even though the officiating crew's judgment had absolutely nothing to do with the players or franchise themselves. This is different, it's worse. It's operating outside the rules.

Now, Pats fans can argue until they're blue in the face about how little it affects the game and how the wins are still legit, etc, and they may be right. But it doesn't matter any more. The Patriots are now stamped (if they weren't already) with the label of CHEATS in the eyes of most non-Patriots fans. There will be no asterisks next to these titles in the history books, but there will be in the minds of the fans. You can't walk around in your "Brady, 4X Champion" shirt without people you'll never see again walking by you and thinking : "Yeah, because they cheated." It's going to be discussed, it's going to be brought up almost every time the Brady/Belichick Patriots are mentioned, forever. There's nothing you can do about this. You have to learn to accept it and move on. No matter what you say, no matter what you think, no matter how hard you protest, you're not going to change the minds of the public. It's part of the fabric of the game and of this franchise now, and it always will be. You now have to deal with it. That's the real penalty here. Pointing at other franchises and saying : "well, they did this and they did that !" doesn't help matters. All everyone sees when you do that is : "He knows they're guilty." It's classic deflection.

Here's hoping you fans can do what Brady could not. Own it. Admit it was a mistake. Move on.

 

[massraider]

Anyone that pushed a "league is out to get the Patriots" theory embarrassed themselves.

The Pats are the golden boys, and Goodell and Kraft are besties. So who was out to get the Pats?

 

[rockaction]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm already tired of the media narrative about cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

I think that you - as a fan of an opposing team - have every right to revel in the Patriots bismirchment of their legacy. As a Patriots fan, I'm disgusted that they continually find themselves at the center of controversy. I also think that you're making WAY too much about the supposed advantage. I've seen several former quarterbacks talk about this ball inflation issue. Mark Brunell went on and on about how much of an advantage it was to use a ball at the low end of the inflation range. He then went on to say that he preferred his footballs to be at 13.0 psi. How can it be that he believes that a 12.5 ball is easier to throw & catch but at the same time demand that his game balls at something other than optimal? I've also heard many of former qbs claim that they never threw a ball that was below minimum pressure. Basic science tells you that in every single game where the temperature dropped 40 degrees from when the balls were measured inside the official's locker room to the end of the game that a ball below the minimum pressure was used. In order for their assertion to be true, they must not have ever played a game outside during the winter. Aaron Rodgers is on record as saying that he likes his footballs over inflated. He believes that over inflated footballs are easier for him to grip & throw. The only advantage that ball inflation provides is making that team's quarterback feel as comfortable & confident with the ball in their hands. Its just one less thing for them to worry about on game day.

If I wanted to get upset about this, it would be because the Patriots appear to have no issues pushing even the most benign of rules toward their favor. I'd have to assume that they were doing other things that when added together did give them a measurable advantage. Those fumble stats have been thoroughly discussed & debunked earlier in this thread, but if it makes you feel better, you are certainly entitled to keep on believing that the inflation pressure alone has a dramatic impact on the game. Its just not a position that most are going to ever subscribe to.

I don't think anything was debunked in this thread. That's laughable. I'm trusting 538 and its team of statisticians way more than Kool-Aid Larry, Run It Up, and palzz.

Yeah, "thoroughly debunked" is definitely the wrong phrase. I was wrong there, but 538 does refer to the initial analysis as "much maligned" and provides links to the most significant counter point articles. Most -if not all- of those articles have merit and show that the Sharp analysis has some significant issues.

In any event, it looks like some members of the Patriots cheated - which means that "The Patriots" cheated. It may have had a huge effect. It may have had a minor effect. We'll never know for sure but you're certainly free to believe whatever scenario makes you the happiest in that regard. Whatever the Patriots get in the way of fines, suspensions & the loss of draft picks is fine with me. They have it coming to them. Even if Belichick didn't know what was going on, the NFL can and should punish him as well since its all happening under his watch.

I root for teams that have natural and intense rivals. Celtics, Red Sox, Whalers (now Bruins), and Jets, Giants, Raiders.

There has never been a team -- not the Lakers, not the Yankees, not the Canadiens -- that I've ever thought, even in my intense dislike for them, wasn't playing by the rules and were actively and deliberately displaying a pattern of cheating to earn competitive advantages during the games. Which brings me to my point: The very act of cheating makes me unhappy because we won't ever know the effect. No scenario is going to make me happy because they flouted the rules of the game in significant ways and weren't playing on a level playing field. That's what puts the bur in my saddle. That they cheated their way to rings in almost every Super Bowl year they were a part of.

I don't know if they were the best, which is part of why we watch and root for sports. I do know, however, that they're illegitimate champions in the eyes of almost every part of the country except for New England. And that's sad, but almost funny.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

. . . and with that I'm out of likes for the day.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

All the "salty haters" nonsense and Mr. Wizard scientific jackoffery aside, the bottom line is this :

A slightly deflated ball isn't that big a deal. Yes, it makes a difference. How much, who knows? It's all about Brady and his comfort level. On its face, it's not a huge transgression - put it in the pine tar/scuffed ball category. If Brady and/or Belichick had owned it right away, it probably would have lasted one news cycle and gone away. But they didn't. They figured it couldn't be proven (about which they were at least partially correct) and they remained defiant and maintained their innocence.

Now, you have this. Several things are obvious to the average NFL fan. To wit :

1) Someone associated with the Patriots fiddled with the balls after they were approved by the refs.

2) Brady at the very least knew about or tacitly approved said fiddling.

3) Brady lied about this publicly.

4) Belichick either lied about it or had no idea it was going on (hard to believe, but whatever. It's his ship.)

5) This isn't the first time this regime has been subject to a high-profile investigation of rule-breaking and found guilty.

Now the fallout of this will be a fine, a suspension, what have you. Probably not enough to affect New England's season too adversely and certainly won't hurt the parties involved in the wallet. The lasting damage is to the legacy of this franchise and particularly the Brady/Belichick regime. NFL fans will forever think these SB wins, all of them, are likely tainted with the dank, fetid smell of impropriety. This is something that chaps Patriot's fans collective buttocks, and believe me, I sympathize. I had to hear (and still do) about how the refs gifted my Steelers a Super Bowl in 2006, even though the bulk of the calls were later proven to be correct and even though the officiating crew's judgment had absolutely nothing to do with the players or franchise themselves. This is different, it's worse. It's operating outside the rules.

Now, Pats fans can argue until they're blue in the face about how little it affects the game and how the wins are still legit, etc, and they may be right. But it doesn't matter any more. The Patriots are now stamped (if they weren't already) with the label of CHEATS in the eyes of most non-Patriots fans. There will be no asterisks next to these titles in the history books, but there will be in the minds of the fans. You can't walk around in your "Brady, 4X Champion" shirt without people you'll never see again walking by you and thinking : "Yeah, because they cheated." It's going to be discussed, it's going to be brought up almost every time the Brady/Belichick Patriots are mentioned, forever. There's nothing you can do about this. You have to learn to accept it and move on. No matter what you say, no matter what you think, no matter how hard you protest, you're not going to change the minds of the public. It's part of the fabric of the game and of this franchise now, and it always will be. You now have to deal with it. That's the real penalty here. Pointing at other franchises and saying : "well, they did this and they did that !" doesn't help matters. All everyone sees when you do that is : "He knows they're guilty." It's classic deflection.

Here's hoping you fans can do what Brady could not. Own it. Admit it was a mistake. Move on.

Busting out the "fetid" stick. Very nice!

Maybe we can now call them the Fetid Franchise since alliteration always adds something for the purposes of headlines.

 

[T J]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

If it wasn't a big deal why wouldn't Brady just come out and say "Well, yes I changed the air pressure in the ball".

Ball pressure is not the point.

The point is they intentionally violated the rules. Intentionally. They commandeered the balls after they'd been inspected, against league policy, for the sole purpose of lowering the psi and violating the rules. And then they lied about it and covered it up.

 

[The General]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

If it wasn't a big deal why wouldn't Brady just come out and say "Well, yes I changed the air pressure in the ball".

Ball pressure is not the point.

The point is they intentionally violated the rules. Intentionally. They commandeered the balls after they'd been inspected, against league policy, for the sole purpose of lowering the psi and violating the rules. And then they lied about it and covered it up.

Yes. This is what I have been saying repeatedly.

There is no defending it unless you still believe that Brady had nothing to do with this which seems ridiculous at this point.

 

[Jercules]

All the "salty haters" nonsense and Mr. Wizard scientific jackoffery aside, the bottom line is this :

A slightly deflated ball isn't that big a deal. Yes, it makes a difference. How much, who knows? It's all about Brady and his comfort level. On its face, it's not a huge transgression - put it in the pine tar/scuffed ball category. If Brady and/or Belichick had owned it right away, it probably would have lasted one news cycle and gone away. But they didn't. They figured it couldn't be proven (about which they were at least partially correct) and they remained defiant and maintained their innocence.

Now, you have this. Several things are obvious to the average NFL fan. To wit :

1) Someone associated with the Patriots fiddled with the balls after they were approved by the refs.

2) Brady at the very least knew about or tacitly approved said fiddling.

3) Brady lied about this publicly.

4) Belichick either lied about it or had no idea it was going on (hard to believe, but whatever. It's his ship.)

5) This isn't the first time this regime has been subject to a high-profile investigation of rule-breaking and found guilty.

Now the fallout of this will be a fine, a suspension, what have you. Probably not enough to affect New England's season too adversely and certainly won't hurt the parties involved in the wallet. The lasting damage is to the legacy of this franchise and particularly the Brady/Belichick regime. NFL fans will forever think these SB wins, all of them, are likely tainted with the dank, fetid smell of impropriety. This is something that chaps Patriot's fans collective buttocks, and believe me, I sympathize. I had to hear (and still do) about how the refs gifted my Steelers a Super Bowl in 2006, even though the bulk of the calls were later proven to be correct and even though the officiating crew's judgment had absolutely nothing to do with the players or franchise themselves. This is different, it's worse. It's operating outside the rules.

Now, Pats fans can argue until they're blue in the face about how little it affects the game and how the wins are still legit, etc, and they may be right. But it doesn't matter any more. The Patriots are now stamped (if they weren't already) with the label of CHEATS in the eyes of most non-Patriots fans. There will be no asterisks next to these titles in the history books, but there will be in the minds of the fans. You can't walk around in your "Brady, 4X Champion" shirt without people you'll never see again walking by you and thinking : "Yeah, because they cheated." It's going to be discussed, it's going to be brought up almost every time the Brady/Belichick Patriots are mentioned, forever. There's nothing you can do about this. You have to learn to accept it and move on. No matter what you say, no matter what you think, no matter how hard you protest, you're not going to change the minds of the public. It's part of the fabric of the game and of this franchise now, and it always will be. You now have to deal with it. That's the real penalty here. Pointing at other franchises and saying : "well, they did this and they did that !" doesn't help matters. All everyone sees when you do that is : "He knows they're guilty." It's classic deflection.

Here's hoping you fans can do what Brady could not. Own it. Admit it was a mistake. Move on.

A lot of presumed knowledge here. You know for a fact that most fans think the Patriots are cheats? I know plenty of non-Pats fans that begrudgingly respect them, and are sick of them only for the whining they inspire.

There isn't a single NFL 'dynasty' that wasn't embroiled in scandal at some point.

 

[Tango]

i only brought up Jim Miller because he actually played NFL football. (my apologies if there are actually former NFL QBs in here that i am unaware of.)

it seems curious that any QBs that comment on this situation essentially laugh it off.

Guess you haven't hear Matt Hasselback's take, or Mark Brunell's.

you're correct, forgot about them.so it's about 50/50.

Yeah you wish. Congrats on finally finding someone saying what you want to hear on the night shift on Sirius on a Thursday.

Yeah, jiiim miiiiillllller is nobody and you're somebody

Ok

If it wasn't a big deal why wouldn't Brady just come out and say "Well, yes I changed the air pressure in the ball".

Ball pressure is not the point.

The point is they intentionally violated the rules. Intentionally. They commandeered the balls after they'd been inspected, against league policy, for the sole purpose of lowering the psi and violating the rules. And then they lied about it and covered it up.

Yes. This is what I have been saying repeatedly.

There is no defending it unless you still believe that Brady had nothing to do with this which seems ridiculous at this point.

Nit-pick:

(1) We have no reason to think Brady intentionally violated the rules, but at best it appears he made it crystal clear how he likes the ball...at worst he told them to break the rules. But he didnt do the deed.

(2) McNally tried to make his "boss" (or whatever you'd call Brady in McNally's eyes) as happy as he could and in doing so broke the rules whether that was by order to specifically break the rules or otherwise is unknown

either way:

Brady set all of this in motion and should take full responsibility for it; including all responsibility for McNally and Jastremski's actions.

 

[Run It Up]

Lmfao, this logic is flawless.

Why don't you just admit to everything we want you to admit to? Why don't you tell us what we want to hear? It will totally change our opinions about everything - and not literally nothing like anyone with commonsense could surmise.

So you think you're innocent? Well you're clearly in even more trouble now mister.

 

[GoBirds]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

 

[Tango]

Lmfao, this logic is flawless.

Why don't you just admit to everything we want you to admit to? Why don't you tell us what we want to hear? It will totally change our opinions about everything - and not literally nothing like anyone with commonsense could surmise.

So you think you're innocent? Well you're clearly in even more trouble now mister.

Just tell the truth.

Pretty simple.

Cant handle that? Then he's not much of a leader after all.

 

[Jercules]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm already tired of the media narrative about cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

I think that you - as a fan of an opposing team - have every right to revel in the Patriots bismirchment of their legacy. As a Patriots fan, I'm disgusted that they continually find themselves at the center of controversy. I also think that you're making WAY too much about the supposed advantage. I've seen several former quarterbacks talk about this ball inflation issue. Mark Brunell went on and on about how much of an advantage it was to use a ball at the low end of the inflation range. He then went on to say that he preferred his footballs to be at 13.0 psi. How can it be that he believes that a 12.5 ball is easier to throw & catch but at the same time demand that his game balls at something other than optimal? I've also heard many of former qbs claim that they never threw a ball that was below minimum pressure. Basic science tells you that in every single game where the temperature dropped 40 degrees from when the balls were measured inside the official's locker room to the end of the game that a ball below the minimum pressure was used. In order for their assertion to be true, they must not have ever played a game outside during the winter. Aaron Rodgers is on record as saying that he likes his footballs over inflated. He believes that over inflated footballs are easier for him to grip & throw. The only advantage that ball inflation provides is making that team's quarterback feel as comfortable & confident with the ball in their hands. Its just one less thing for them to worry about on game day.

If I wanted to get upset about this, it would be because the Patriots appear to have no issues pushing even the most benign of rules toward their favor. I'd have to assume that they were doing other things that when added together did give them a measurable advantage. Those fumble stats have been thoroughly discussed & debunked earlier in this thread, but if it makes you feel better, you are certainly entitled to keep on believing that the inflation pressure alone has a dramatic impact on the game. Its just not a position that most are going to ever subscribe to.

I don't think anything was debunked in this thread. That's laughable. I'm trusting 538 and its team of statisticians way more than Kool-Aid Larry, Run It Up, and palzz.

Yeah, "thoroughly debunked" is definitely the wrong phrase. I was wrong there, but 538 does refer to the initial analysis as "much maligned" and provides links to the most significant counter point articles. Most -if not all- of those articles have merit and show that the Sharp analysis has some significant issues.

In any event, it looks like some members of the Patriots cheated - which means that "The Patriots" cheated. It may have had a huge effect. It may have had a minor effect. We'll never know for sure but you're certainly free to believe whatever scenario makes you the happiest in that regard. Whatever the Patriots get in the way of fines, suspensions & the loss of draft picks is fine with me. They have it coming to them. Even if Belichick didn't know what was going on, the NFL can and should punish him as well since its all happening under his watch.

I root for teams that have natural and intense rivals. Celtics, Red Sox, Whalers (now Bruins), and Jets, Giants, Raiders.

There has never been a team -- not the Lakers, not the Yankees, not the Canadiens -- that I've ever thought, even in my intense dislike for them, wasn't playing by the rules and were actively and deliberately displaying a pattern of cheating to earn competitive advantages during the games. Which brings me to my point: The very act of cheating makes me unhappy because we won't ever know the effect. No scenario is going to make me happy because they flouted the rules of the game in significant ways and weren't playing on a level playing field. That's what puts the bur in my saddle. That they cheated their way to rings in almost every Super Bowl year they were a part of.

I don't know if they were the best, which is part of why we watch and root for sports. I do know, however, that they're illegitimate champions in the eyes of almost every part of the country except for New England. And that's sad, but almost funny.

Posts like these are interesting.

It's not that the Patriots are illegitimate everywhere in the country, it's that you want them to be, and the best way for you to encourage that is with posts like this.

Goodell is a glorified PR man; if attitudes really were as you say he'd be the very first guy to give the Pats and their achievements some sort of official stain. In the end, with this particular transgression, he might successfully have Brady suspended for a few games.

Brady cheated, he lied, he's been sort of caught... having his footballs slightly deflated, which is not a big deal. A serious observer considers all those factors. Petty fans with axes to grind fail to consider the last one.

Brady's the reigning Super Bowl MVP, and he's not done. If pretending the rest of the country will forget that floats your boat, good for you.

 

[Anarchy99]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

 

[Pots]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

If this was minimized to a fine + 1 game suspension, the NFL would lose a ton of face.

 

[Run It Up]

Lmfao, this logic is flawless.

Why don't you just admit to everything we want you to admit to? Why don't you tell us what we want to hear? It will totally change our opinions about everything - and not literally nothing like anyone with commonsense could surmise.

So you think you're innocent? Well you're clearly in even more trouble now mister.

Just tell the truth.

Pretty simple.

Cant handle that? Then he's not much of a leader after all.

I'm not saying this is a witch hunt.

I'm just saying, you all sound like you're hunting a witch and your fool proof witch trials would make people a couple centuries ago blush.

 

[MG345]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

* let me find it.

 

[rockaction]

I still don't see deflated balls as anything but a very big competitive advantage to the Patriots, as many former football players have stated and that the Patriots fumble stats bear out. I'm already tired of the media narrative about cooperation and power and precedent.

It affected the games, dammit. It's easier to grip and hold. That's the most important thing here. It's also likely that if it didn't affect the games, there'd be no reason to do it. Aside from the sliver of possibility that it was mere superstition on his end, he obviously got an advantage out of the deflated balls -- otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal to him.

I think that you - as a fan of an opposing team - have every right to revel in the Patriots bismirchment of their legacy. As a Patriots fan, I'm disgusted that they continually find themselves at the center of controversy. I also think that you're making WAY too much about the supposed advantage. I've seen several former quarterbacks talk about this ball inflation issue. Mark Brunell went on and on about how much of an advantage it was to use a ball at the low end of the inflation range. He then went on to say that he preferred his footballs to be at 13.0 psi. How can it be that he believes that a 12.5 ball is easier to throw & catch but at the same time demand that his game balls at something other than optimal? I've also heard many of former qbs claim that they never threw a ball that was below minimum pressure. Basic science tells you that in every single game where the temperature dropped 40 degrees from when the balls were measured inside the official's locker room to the end of the game that a ball below the minimum pressure was used. In order for their assertion to be true, they must not have ever played a game outside during the winter. Aaron Rodgers is on record as saying that he likes his footballs over inflated. He believes that over inflated footballs are easier for him to grip & throw. The only advantage that ball inflation provides is making that team's quarterback feel as comfortable & confident with the ball in their hands. Its just one less thing for them to worry about on game day.

If I wanted to get upset about this, it would be because the Patriots appear to have no issues pushing even the most benign of rules toward their favor. I'd have to assume that they were doing other things that when added together did give them a measurable advantage. Those fumble stats have been thoroughly discussed & debunked earlier in this thread, but if it makes you feel better, you are certainly entitled to keep on believing that the inflation pressure alone has a dramatic impact on the game. Its just not a position that most are going to ever subscribe to.

I don't think anything was debunked in this thread. That's laughable. I'm trusting 538 and its team of statisticians way more than Kool-Aid Larry, Run It Up, and palzz.

Yeah, "thoroughly debunked" is definitely the wrong phrase. I was wrong there, but 538 does refer to the initial analysis as "much maligned" and provides links to the most significant counter point articles. Most -if not all- of those articles have merit and show that the Sharp analysis has some significant issues.

In any event, it looks like some members of the Patriots cheated - which means that "The Patriots" cheated. It may have had a huge effect. It may have had a minor effect. We'll never know for sure but you're certainly free to believe whatever scenario makes you the happiest in that regard. Whatever the Patriots get in the way of fines, suspensions & the loss of draft picks is fine with me. They have it coming to them. Even if Belichick didn't know what was going on, the NFL can and should punish him as well since its all happening under his watch.

I root for teams that have natural and intense rivals. Celtics, Red Sox, Whalers (now Bruins), and Jets, Giants, Raiders.

There has never been a team -- not the Lakers, not the Yankees, not the Canadiens -- that I've ever thought, even in my intense dislike for them, wasn't playing by the rules and were actively and deliberately displaying a pattern of cheating to earn competitive advantages during the games. Which brings me to my point: The very act of cheating makes me unhappy because we won't ever know the effect. No scenario is going to make me happy because they flouted the rules of the game in significant ways and weren't playing on a level playing field. That's what puts the bur in my saddle. That they cheated their way to rings in almost every Super Bowl year they were a part of.

I don't know if they were the best, which is part of why we watch and root for sports. I do know, however, that they're illegitimate champions in the eyes of almost every part of the country except for New England. And that's sad, but almost funny.

Posts like these are interesting.

It's not that the Patriots are illegitimate everywhere in the country, it's that you want them to be, and the best way for you to encourage that is with posts like this.

Goodell is a glorified PR man; if attitudes really were as you say he'd be the very first guy to give the Pats and their achievements some sort of official stain. In the end, with this particular transgression, he might successfully have Brady suspended for a few games.

Brady cheated, he lied, he's been sort of caught... having his footballs slightly deflated, which is not a big deal. A serious observer considers all those factors. Petty fans with axes to grind fail to consider the last one.

Brady's the reigning Super Bowl MVP, and he's not done. If pretending the rest of the country will forget that floats your boat, good for you.

Yeah, posting on a message board will do just that. I hope to shape public opinion by posting anonymously at football guys.com

Keep deluding yourself and wishing it away. You're on Jon Stewart being called "Johnny Cheats At Football."

You're on ESPN at two today.

You're all over the news, everywhere, and everybody thinks you're cheaters. It's hilarious.

 

[rockaction]

Jercules now in the running for that award we discussed earlier. Anybody delusional enough to think that the other 31 fan bases think this is okay is the saltiest of trolls.

 

[BroadwayG]

I wonder if all NFL QBs like their balls rubbed, scrubbed, and prepped a particular way before playing with them.

 

[MG345]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

This isn't true.

* let me find it.

Here we go:

Penalties for Unfair Acts


The Commissioner’s powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game’s result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. In the event of rescheduling a game, the Commissioner will be guided by the procedures specified above ("Procedures for Starting and Resuming Games" under EMERGENCIES). In all cases, the Commissioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedures he deems appropriate.

 

[T J]

Lmfao, this logic is flawless.

Why don't you just admit to everything we want you to admit to? Why don't you tell us what we want to hear? It will totally change our opinions about everything - and not literally nothing like anyone with commonsense could surmise.

So you think you're innocent? Well you're clearly in even more trouble now mister.

Dude, are you really this dumb?

 

[Run It Up]

Jercules now in the running for that award we discussed earlier. Anybody delusional enough to think that the other 31 fan bases think this is okay is the saltiest of trolls.

I mean, theres a 5000 response thread on /r/NFL, where most people are discussing the Wells report in a reasonable manner. Fans from all 32 teams talking about how little actual depth there is to the report and how much of an obvious slant there is.

But, thats just 5000 nerds over at reddit.

 

[rockaction]

Jercules now in the running for that award we discussed earlier. Anybody delusional enough to think that the other 31 fan bases think this is okay is the saltiest of trolls.

I mean, theres a 5000 response thread on /r/NFL, where most people are discussing the Wells report in a reasonable manner. People from all 32 teams talking about how little actual depth there is to the report and how much of an obvious slant there is.

But, thats just 5000 nerds over at reddit.

 

[MG345]

Jercules now in the running for that award we discussed earlier. Anybody delusional enough to think that the other 31 fan bases think this is okay is the saltiest of trolls.

I mean, theres a 5000 response thread on /r/NFL, where most people are discussing the Wells report in a reasonable manner. Fans from all 32 teams talking about how little actual depth there is to the report and how much of an obvious slant there is.

But, thats just 5000 nerds over at reddit.

How little depth? We have all three guys that orchestrated it exchanging clear text messages and when questioned about it they were caught lying. That's not even taking into account the PSI data, which coupled with the above paints a very clear picture. What more "depth" do you need?

 

[Anarchy99]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

I have said this many in times in many threads. I am fairly confident the Patriots straddle, skirt, bend, or break the rules in 100 different ways. They have been caught a few times. They do all of the things they do to get the slightest of advantages. Individually they probably don't mean much, but collectively they likely mean a lot.

Besides the issues they have been punished for, they have been accused of using locker room attendants to eavesdrop in opponent's locker rooms. Some coaches sweat the visiting locker room is bugged. We know they brought out a mini snow plow to clear the field in a blizzard to kick a game winning FG many years ago. They have been accused at intentionally under maintaining or switching turf. They have been accused of stealing radio communications, blocking radio communications, and intentionally supplying faulty radio equipment. I remember people suggesting the clock operator with starting or stopping the clock to their advantage. They have been accused of placing a jumbotron where only their team could see it to decide if they should challenge plays or not. BB has been accused of misreporting injuries or making a mockery of the injury report. We all know that people think he circumvented the rules with his eligible/ineligible receiver shell game from this year. I can't remember if it was NE or one of the other local teams that got accused of cranking up the heat in the opponent's locker room or not supplying hot water in the showers. BB has been questioned by other teams in not abiding by the injured reserve and waiver wire protocols. They have been accused of punching people in piles and hitting guys where it counts. They have been accused of video taping opponents' practices.

The possibilities are endless for what they could try to. Rest assured there are many other things they likely have tried or would try if they could get the opportunity to. Bottom line, they play to win . . . even if that means stretching or breaking the rules. And the takeaway is they don't care if they get caught. They will pay their fines or lose their draft picks, let the league amend the rules and outlaw things, and go about their business. And BB does not care one iota what the rest of the country thinks. Tom Brady is the guy that cheated with your hot girlfriend and wooed her away, and your only defense is calling him names while you are home alone.

Their credo is that they have won 4 titles in the past 14 years and have the best overall record in that time, and 31 other franchises are looking up at them. People will call for their heads and stiff penalties and call them cheaters. And they are right. They cheat. And they cheat all the time. But they are so good at it, they are probably laughing at all the other stuff they do and get away with that people don't know about. And if 98% of the country hates them, they are fine with that.

What gets me is that the rest of the league has not tried to do more to bend the rules (ok, break the rules) like NE does. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We know a lot of teams and a lot of players have done some things to try to get an advantage (there are no 100% innocent teams out there). It's a bit like being charged with murder. Once you kill one person, why not a few more? New England is dirty as the day is long, and they don't play fair.

I am certainly not suggesting that what NE does is right and proper, because it clearly isn't. It is a terrible example to set and teach kids about fair play. They have very questionable integrity and are the definition of shady, but they are fine with that. They have sold their souls to win football games and they can live with that. People can climb the highest mountain and scream as loud as they can that they are immoral and should be taken to the woodshed and punished severely, but the fact remains the Pats have won 4 SBs and they don't have to give the trophies back.

Like one of the other threads that is out there asks, is winning the SB worth losing some draft picks and a few hundred thousand dollars in fines? That's an easy one to answer for New England.

 

[cstu]

Nit-pick:

(1) We have no reason to think Brady intentionally violated the rules, but at best it appears he made it crystal clear how he likes the ball...at worst he told them to break the rules. But he didnt do the deed.

(2) McNally tried to make his "boss" (or whatever you'd call Brady in McNally's eyes) as happy as he could and in doing so broke the rules whether that was by order to specifically break the rules or otherwise is unknown

either way:

Brady set all of this in motion and should take full responsibility for it; including all responsibility for McNally and Jastremski's actions.

Did you read the texts?

 

[Anarchy99]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

This isn't true.

* let me find it.

Here we go:

Penalties for Unfair Acts


The Commissioner’s powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game’s result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. In the event of rescheduling a game, the Commissioner will be guided by the procedures specified above ("Procedures for Starting and Resuming Games" under EMERGENCIES). In all cases, the Commissioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedures he deems appropriate.

I only cited what the guy said, accurate or not. In his article, McCann writes:

Potential penalties for the Patriots

The NFL Game Operations Manual dictates that violations of the PSI rule triggers a modest $25,000 fine. The Patriots, with a reported net worth of approximately $1.5 billion, can easily pay such a fine. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, however, is authorized to impose a stiffer penalty than the one prescribed by the game operations manual. Specifically, Article 8.13 of the NFL’s Constitution empowers Goodell to issue penalties for violations of rules that “affect the competitive aspects of the game.” It is possible Goodell could levy onto the Patriots a much higher fine (up to $500,000 per league rules).

Although less likely, Goodell could also take away future draft picks away from the Patriots. There is precedent for such a sanction. In the way of the 2007 Spygate scandal, the Patriots were fined $250,000 and forced to forfeit their 2008 first-round pick. In 2012, the New Orleans Saints were fined $500,000 and required to forfeit their 2012 and 2013 second-round picks as a result of Bountygate.

There is no remedy in the NFL constitution that would empower Goodell to vacate Patriots wins or take away the teams’ victory in Super Bowl XLIX. Such a remedy, moreover, would seem wholly inappropriate given that the underlying misconduct concerned slightly underinflated footballs. This point seems especially true given that Kraft and Belichick were cleared. The most likely sanction for the Patriots is a fine.

 

[Tango]

Nit-pick:

(1) We have no reason to think Brady intentionally violated the rules, but at best it appears he made it crystal clear how he likes the ball...at worst he told them to break the rules. But he didnt do the deed.

(2) McNally tried to make his "boss" (or whatever you'd call Brady in McNally's eyes) as happy as he could and in doing so broke the rules whether that was by order to specifically break the rules or otherwise is unknown

either way:

Brady set all of this in motion and should take full responsibility for it; including all responsibility for McNally and Jastremski's actions.

Did you read the texts?

Yes, my impression is that characterization I left in that complete bullet point was the correct inference to make. Which was he at least made it known how he likes the ball to ppl he has influence over, at most ordered the rule breaking, but did not actually deflate balls himself. He denied all of the above and is in deep no matter which one it is

 

[moleculo]

Sean Sullivan, the Colts equipment manager, sent the following email to Grigson, who forwarded it to the NFL the day before the championship game:

As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that
after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game
usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because
their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great
if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on
so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage.

first of all, the fact that Sullivan knew exactly what was happening is curious. The fact that this was written prior to the AFCCG lends credence to me that (1) this actually happened and (2) this has been a recurring event.

it's also curious that "it's well known around the league". if that's true, why has this not been addressed prior? Why would the NFL not deal with this like they did the last time someone snitched on them - that is, send out a memorandum explicitly saying not to do that?

It also begs question into what Belichick actually knew. Does anyone find it plausible that Belichick was unaware of some fact pertaining to his team that was "well known around the league"?

 

[rockaction]

Sean Sullivan, the Colts equipment manager, sent the following email to Grigson, who forwarded it to the NFL the day before the championship game:

As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that

after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game

usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because

their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great

if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on

so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage.

first of all, the fact that Sullivan knew exactly what was happening is curious. The fact that this was written prior to the AFCCG lends credence to me that (1) this actually happened and (2) this has been a recurring event.

it's also curious that "it's well known around the league". if that's true, why has this not been addressed prior? Why would the NFL not deal with this like they did the last time someone snitched on them - that is, send out a memorandum explicitly saying not to do that?

It also begs question into what Belichick actually knew. Does anyone find it plausible that Belichick was unaware of some fact pertaining to his team that was "well known around the league"?

Speculation on Felger and Mazz (Boston, CSN network) was that Goodell and company let Belichick off the hook big time, citing an example or two within the report that contradicted Belichick's public statements after this was all announced.

 

[Anarchy99]

Sean Sullivan, the Colts equipment manager, sent the following email to Grigson, who forwarded it to the NFL the day before the championship game:

As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that

after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game

usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because

their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great

if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on

so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage.

first of all, the fact that Sullivan knew exactly what was happening is curious. The fact that this was written prior to the AFCCG lends credence to me that (1) this actually happened and (2) this has been a recurring event.

it's also curious that "it's well known around the league". if that's true, why has this not been addressed prior? Why would the NFL not deal with this like they did the last time someone snitched on them - that is, send out a memorandum explicitly saying not to do that?

It also begs question into what Belichick actually knew. Does anyone find it plausible that Belichick was unaware of some fact pertaining to his team that was "well known around the league"?

This plays into what I suggested, which was no one gave a damn about football pressure before until the AFCCG. It sounds like a lot of QBs had things done to footballs over the years that didn't fully adhere to the rules. It also sounds like the officials were exceedingly lax in their inspection of the footballs (and it sounds like some games footballs may not have been inspected at all). To be clear, messing with the footballs after they were inspected is a different level of breaking the rules than just having a ball boy give refs footballs that were over or under inflated, more scuffed than they were allowed, etc.

 

[GoBirds]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

I have said this many in times in many threads. I am fairly confident the Patriots straddle, skirt, bend, or break the rules in 100 different ways. They have been caught a few times. They do all of the things they do to get the slightest of advantages. Individually they probably don't mean much, but collectively they likely mean a lot.Besides the issues they have been punished for, they have been accused of using locker room attendants to eavesdrop in opponent's locker rooms. Some coaches sweat the visiting locker room is bugged. We know they brought out a mini snow plow to clear the field in a blizzard to kick a game winning FG many years ago. They have been accused at intentionally under maintaining or switching turf. They have been accused of stealing radio communications, blocking radio communications, and intentionally supplying faulty radio equipment. I remember people suggesting the clock operator with starting or stopping the clock to their advantage. They have been accused of placing a jumbotron where only their team could see it to decide if they should challenge plays or not. BB has been accused of misreporting injuries or making a mockery of the injury report. We all know that people think he circumvented the rules with his eligible/ineligible receiver shell game from this year. I can't remember if it was NE or one of the other local teams that got accused of cranking up the heat in the opponent's locker room or not supplying hot water in the showers. BB has been questioned by other teams in not abiding by the injured reserve and waiver wire protocols. They have been accused of punching people in piles and hitting guys where it counts. They have been accused of video taping opponents' practices.

The possibilities are endless for what they could try to. Rest assured there are many other things they likely have tried or would try if they could get the opportunity to. Bottom line, they play to win . . . even if that means stretching or breaking the rules. And the takeaway is they don't care if they get caught. They will pay their fines or lose their draft picks, let the league amend the rules and outlaw things, and go about their business. And BB does not care one iota what the rest of the country thinks. Tom Brady is the guy that cheated with your hot girlfriend and wooed her away, and your only defense is calling him names while you are home alone.

Their credo is that they have won 4 titles in the past 14 years and have the best overall record in that time, and 31 other franchises are looking up at them. People will call for their heads and stiff penalties and call them cheaters. And they are right. They cheat. And they cheat all the time. But they are so good at it, they are probably laughing at all the other stuff they do and get away with that people don't know about. And if 98% of the country hates them, they are fine with that.

What gets me is that the rest of the league has not tried to do more to bend the rules (ok, break the rules) like NE does. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We know a lot of teams and a lot of players have done some things to try to get an advantage (there are no 100% innocent teams out there). It's a bit like being charged with murder. Once you kill one person, why not a few more? New England is dirty as the day is long, and they don't play fair.

I am certainly not suggesting that what NE does is right and proper, because it clearly isn't. It is a terrible example to set and teach kids about fair play. They have very questionable integrity and are the definition of shady, but they are fine with that. They have sold their souls to win football games and they can live with that. People can climb the highest mountain and scream as loud as they can that they are immoral and should be taken to the woodshed and punished severely, but the fact remains the Pats have won 4 SBs and they don't have to give the trophies back.

Like one of the other threads that is out there asks, is winning the SB worth losing some draft picks and a few hundred thousand dollars in fines? That's an easy one to answer for New England.

Not trying to bust your balls as much as some of the others in here that are just out of touch. I can't argue with much of what you said.

 

[MG345]

Sports Illustrated's legal expert Michael McCann sees the following as an outcome:

- Pats keep their SB title as there is nothing in the rules that allows Goodell to vacate their title.

- Pats keep all their draft picks and end up only with a fine.

- While not stated in the article, no penalties for Belichick (one would assume that McCann would have indicated if he expected any).

- Brady would face a minimal suspension "given that Brady himself is not accused of breaking the (ball tampering) rule, it seems unlikely that Brady would face an expensive fine or a suspension of more than one game. He would also have the ability to appeal any suspension."

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/06/nfl-deflategate-wells-report-legal-analysis

This isn't true.

* let me find it.

Here we go:

Penalties for Unfair Acts


The Commissioner’s powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game’s result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. In the event of rescheduling a game, the Commissioner will be guided by the procedures specified above ("Procedures for Starting and Resuming Games" under EMERGENCIES). In all cases, the Commissioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedures he deems appropriate.

I only cited what the guy said, accurate or not. In his article, McCann writes:

Potential penalties for the Patriots

The NFL Game Operations Manual dictates that violations of the PSI rule triggers a modest $25,000 fine. The Patriots, with a reported net worth of approximately $1.5 billion, can easily pay such a fine. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, however, is authorized to impose a stiffer penalty than the one prescribed by the game operations manual. Specifically, Article 8.13 of the NFL’s Constitution empowers Goodell to issue penalties for violations of rules that “affect the competitive aspects of the game.” It is possible Goodell could levy onto the Patriots a much higher fine (up to $500,000 per league rules).

Although less likely, Goodell could also take away future draft picks away from the Patriots. There is precedent for such a sanction. In the way of the 2007 Spygate scandal, the Patriots were fined $250,000 and forced to forfeit their 2008 first-round pick. In 2012, the New Orleans Saints were fined $500,000 and required to forfeit their 2012 and 2013 second-round picks as a result of Bountygate.

There is no remedy in the NFL constitution that would empower Goodell to vacate Patriots wins or take away the teams’ victory in Super Bowl XLIX. Such a remedy, moreover, would seem wholly inappropriate given that the underlying misconduct concerned slightly underinflated footballs. This point seems especially true given that Kraft and Belichick were cleared. The most likely sanction for the Patriots is a fine.

I guess he didn't read the rule book, and only the constitution:

Unfair Acts
Commissioner’s Authority
The Commissioner has sole authority to investigate and to take appropriate disciplinary or corrective measures if any club action, nonparticipant interference, or emergency occurs in an NFL game which he deems so unfair or outside the accepted tactics encountered in professional football that such action has a major effect on the result of a game.
No Club Protests
The authority and measures provided for in this section (UNFAIR ACTS) do not constitute a protest machinery for NFL clubs to dispute the result of a game. The Commissioner will conduct an investigation under this section only to review an act or occurrence that he deems so unfair that the result of the game in question may be inequitable to one of the participating teams. The Commissioner will not apply his authority under this section when a club registers a complaint concerning judgmental errors or routine errors of omission by game officials. Games involving such complaints will continue to stand as completed.
Penalties for Unfair Acts
The Commissioner’s powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game’s result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred. In the event of rescheduling a game, the Commissioner will be guided by the procedures specified above ("Procedures for Starting and Resuming Games" under EMERGENCIES). In all cases, the Commissioner will conduct a full investigation, including the opportunity for hearings, use of game videotape, and any other procedures he deems appropriate.

 

[Jercules]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

I have said this many in times in many threads. I am fairly confident the Patriots straddle, skirt, bend, or break the rules in 100 different ways. They have been caught a few times. They do all of the things they do to get the slightest of advantages. Individually they probably don't mean much, but collectively they likely mean a lot.

Besides the issues they have been punished for, they have been accused of using locker room attendants to eavesdrop in opponent's locker rooms. Some coaches sweat the visiting locker room is bugged. We know they brought out a mini snow plow to clear the field in a blizzard to kick a game winning FG many years ago. They have been accused at intentionally under maintaining or switching turf. They have been accused of stealing radio communications, blocking radio communications, and intentionally supplying faulty radio equipment. I remember people suggesting the clock operator with starting or stopping the clock to their advantage. They have been accused of placing a jumbotron where only their team could see it to decide if they should challenge plays or not. BB has been accused of misreporting injuries or making a mockery of the injury report. We all know that people think he circumvented the rules with his eligible/ineligible receiver shell game from this year. I can't remember if it was NE or one of the other local teams that got accused of cranking up the heat in the opponent's locker room or not supplying hot water in the showers. BB has been questioned by other teams in not abiding by the injured reserve and waiver wire protocols. They have been accused of punching people in piles and hitting guys where it counts. They have been accused of video taping opponents' practices.

The possibilities are endless for what they could try to. Rest assured there are many other things they likely have tried or would try if they could get the opportunity to. Bottom line, they play to win . . . even if that means stretching or breaking the rules. And the takeaway is they don't care if they get caught. They will pay their fines or lose their draft picks, let the league amend the rules and outlaw things, and go about their business. And BB does not care one iota what the rest of the country thinks. Tom Brady is the guy that cheated with your hot girlfriend and wooed her away, and your only defense is calling him names while you are home alone.

Their credo is that they have won 4 titles in the past 14 years and have the best overall record in that time, and 31 other franchises are looking up at them. People will call for their heads and stiff penalties and call them cheaters. And they are right. They cheat. And they cheat all the time. But they are so good at it, they are probably laughing at all the other stuff they do and get away with that people don't know about. And if 98% of the country hates them, they are fine with that.

What gets me is that the rest of the league has not tried to do more to bend the rules (ok, break the rules) like NE does. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We know a lot of teams and a lot of players have done some things to try to get an advantage (there are no 100% innocent teams out there). It's a bit like being charged with murder. Once you kill one person, why not a few more? New England is dirty as the day is long, and they don't play fair.

I am certainly not suggesting that what NE does is right and proper, because it clearly isn't. It is a terrible example to set and teach kids about fair play. They have very questionable integrity and are the definition of shady, but they are fine with that. They have sold their souls to win football games and they can live with that. People can climb the highest mountain and scream as loud as they can that they are immoral and should be taken to the woodshed and punished severely, but the fact remains the Pats have won 4 SBs and they don't have to give the trophies back.

Like one of the other threads that is out there asks, is winning the SB worth losing some draft picks and a few hundred thousand dollars in fines? That's an easy one to answer for New England.

This is a good post. I'm a Pats fan and I agree entirely with this.

Every time I see something on the old-time Raiders on NFL Network, where John Madden and Co. basically brag about how and how much they cheated, I think about how many of the people loving that are the same people coming on boards like these and making these ridiculously indignant posts about the Patriots.

What amazes me is how cowed everyone is. Instead of accepting the challenge and trying to knock off the bully at the top of the hill, they'd rather whine and cry about clever formations and excessive scoring and pretend tiny infractions like slightly deflated footballs and wrongly positioned cameras are equivalent to paying off the refs or something. It's the most masculine popular sport, and yet so many of the participants (and fans) are just absolute pu$$ies.

(For the sake of comparison, you never this sad crap from hockey teams or their fans. Different culture I guess.)

I never thought I'd say this, but I actually have some respect for Rex Ryan. For all the crap he talks about the Patriots, he's never once jumped on this bandwagon about how they're cheaters and blah blah blah. He even challenged the rest of the league to actually beat the Patriots once--too bad no one was listening.

 

[MG345]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

I have said this many in times in many threads. I am fairly confident the Patriots straddle, skirt, bend, or break the rules in 100 different ways. They have been caught a few times. They do all of the things they do to get the slightest of advantages. Individually they probably don't mean much, but collectively they likely mean a lot.

Besides the issues they have been punished for, they have been accused of using locker room attendants to eavesdrop in opponent's locker rooms. Some coaches sweat the visiting locker room is bugged. We know they brought out a mini snow plow to clear the field in a blizzard to kick a game winning FG many years ago. They have been accused at intentionally under maintaining or switching turf. They have been accused of stealing radio communications, blocking radio communications, and intentionally supplying faulty radio equipment. I remember people suggesting the clock operator with starting or stopping the clock to their advantage. They have been accused of placing a jumbotron where only their team could see it to decide if they should challenge plays or not. BB has been accused of misreporting injuries or making a mockery of the injury report. We all know that people think he circumvented the rules with his eligible/ineligible receiver shell game from this year. I can't remember if it was NE or one of the other local teams that got accused of cranking up the heat in the opponent's locker room or not supplying hot water in the showers. BB has been questioned by other teams in not abiding by the injured reserve and waiver wire protocols. They have been accused of punching people in piles and hitting guys where it counts. They have been accused of video taping opponents' practices.

The possibilities are endless for what they could try to. Rest assured there are many other things they likely have tried or would try if they could get the opportunity to. Bottom line, they play to win . . . even if that means stretching or breaking the rules. And the takeaway is they don't care if they get caught. They will pay their fines or lose their draft picks, let the league amend the rules and outlaw things, and go about their business. And BB does not care one iota what the rest of the country thinks. Tom Brady is the guy that cheated with your hot girlfriend and wooed her away, and your only defense is calling him names while you are home alone.

Their credo is that they have won 4 titles in the past 14 years and have the best overall record in that time, and 31 other franchises are looking up at them. People will call for their heads and stiff penalties and call them cheaters. And they are right. They cheat. And they cheat all the time. But they are so good at it, they are probably laughing at all the other stuff they do and get away with that people don't know about. And if 98% of the country hates them, they are fine with that.

What gets me is that the rest of the league has not tried to do more to bend the rules (ok, break the rules) like NE does. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We know a lot of teams and a lot of players have done some things to try to get an advantage (there are no 100% innocent teams out there). It's a bit like being charged with murder. Once you kill one person, why not a few more? New England is dirty as the day is long, and they don't play fair.

I am certainly not suggesting that what NE does is right and proper, because it clearly isn't. It is a terrible example to set and teach kids about fair play. They have very questionable integrity and are the definition of shady, but they are fine with that. They have sold their souls to win football games and they can live with that. People can climb the highest mountain and scream as loud as they can that they are immoral and should be taken to the woodshed and punished severely, but the fact remains the Pats have won 4 SBs and they don't have to give the trophies back.

Like one of the other threads that is out there asks, is winning the SB worth losing some draft picks and a few hundred thousand dollars in fines? That's an easy one to answer for New England.

This is a good post. I'm a Pats fan and I agree entirely with this.

Every time I see something on the old-time Raiders on NFL Network, where John Madden and Co. basically brag about how and how much they cheated, I think about how many of the people loving that are the same people coming on boards like these and making these ridiculously indignant posts about the Patriots.

What amazes me is how cowed everyone is. Instead of accepting the challenge and trying to knock off the bully at the top of the hill, they'd rather whine and cry about clever formations and excessive scoring and pretend tiny infractions like slightly deflated footballs and wrongly positioned cameras are equivalent to paying off the refs or something. It's the most masculine popular sport, and yet so many of the participants (and fans) are just absolute pu$$ies.

(For the sake of comparison, you never this sad crap from hockey teams or their fans. Different culture I guess.)

I never thought I'd say this, but I actually have some respect for Rex Ryan. For all the crap he talks about the Patriots, he's never once jumped on this bandwagon about how they're cheaters and blah blah blah. He even challenged the rest of the league to actually beat the Patriots once--too bad no one was listening.

So you defense is...we cheat, get over it? Nice.

 

[moleculo]

Clearly their cheating has no real effect on any games right Pats fans.....that's why they did it....just to break some rules for no reason. Love it.

I have said this many in times in many threads. I am fairly confident the Patriots straddle, skirt, bend, or break the rules in 100 different ways. They have been caught a few times. They do all of the things they do to get the slightest of advantages. Individually they probably don't mean much, but collectively they likely mean a lot.

Besides the issues they have been punished for, they have been accused of using locker room attendants to eavesdrop in opponent's locker rooms. Some coaches sweat the visiting locker room is bugged. We know they brought out a mini snow plow to clear the field in a blizzard to kick a game winning FG many years ago. They have been accused at intentionally under maintaining or switching turf. They have been accused of stealing radio communications, blocking radio communications, and intentionally supplying faulty radio equipment. I remember people suggesting the clock operator with starting or stopping the clock to their advantage. They have been accused of placing a jumbotron where only their team could see it to decide if they should challenge plays or not. BB has been accused of misreporting injuries or making a mockery of the injury report. We all know that people think he circumvented the rules with his eligible/ineligible receiver shell game from this year. I can't remember if it was NE or one of the other local teams that got accused of cranking up the heat in the opponent's locker room or not supplying hot water in the showers. BB has been questioned by other teams in not abiding by the injured reserve and waiver wire protocols. They have been accused of punching people in piles and hitting guys where it counts. They have been accused of video taping opponents' practices.

The possibilities are endless for what they could try to. Rest assured there are many other things they likely have tried or would try if they could get the opportunity to. Bottom line, they play to win . . . even if that means stretching or breaking the rules. And the takeaway is they don't care if they get caught. They will pay their fines or lose their draft picks, let the league amend the rules and outlaw things, and go about their business. And BB does not care one iota what the rest of the country thinks. Tom Brady is the guy that cheated with your hot girlfriend and wooed her away, and your only defense is calling him names while you are home alone.

Their credo is that they have won 4 titles in the past 14 years and have the best overall record in that time, and 31 other franchises are looking up at them. People will call for their heads and stiff penalties and call them cheaters. And they are right. They cheat. And they cheat all the time. But they are so good at it, they are probably laughing at all the other stuff they do and get away with that people don't know about. And if 98% of the country hates them, they are fine with that.

What gets me is that the rest of the league has not tried to do more to bend the rules (ok, break the rules) like NE does. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. We know a lot of teams and a lot of players have done some things to try to get an advantage (there are no 100% innocent teams out there). It's a bit like being charged with murder. Once you kill one person, why not a few more? New England is dirty as the day is long, and they don't play fair.

I am certainly not suggesting that what NE does is right and proper, because it clearly isn't. It is a terrible example to set and teach kids about fair play. They have very questionable integrity and are the definition of shady, but they are fine with that. They have sold their souls to win football games and they can live with that. People can climb the highest mountain and scream as loud as they can that they are immoral and should be taken to the woodshed and punished severely, but the fact remains the Pats have won 4 SBs and they don't have to give the trophies back.

Like one of the other threads that is out there asks, is winning the SB worth losing some draft picks and a few hundred thousand dollars in fines? That's an easy one to answer for New England.

I love it. If I were a Pats fan, this is the tack I would take. This is basically how I have advised my Patriot buddies to respond - not whine about psi, or complain about the credibility of an engineering firm, or whatever, but to be proud that your team has the cuts and the creativity to do what they have to do to win. I believe I said in this thread or another that I only wish my team was as brazen as the Patriots are to find ways to skirt the rules.

ETA: when you do eventually get busted, you have to face the music. That's part and parcel of pushing the edge, and it doesn't give the Patriots much wiggle room for appeals.

 

[DocHolliday]

Do the crime.

Do the time.

We shall see what kind of message is sent by the NFL. This is going to be very telling. Is the NFL totally about the $ now or does some integrity matter?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

now THIS is funny

 

[moleculo]

My preferred punishment: do not suspend Tom Brady, but suspend Belichick for one year.

I would LOVE to see how great Tom Brady is without hoodie and with that little #### Josh McDaniels calling the shots.

 

[Anarchy99]

My preferred punishment: do not suspend Tom Brady, but suspend Belichick for one year.

I would LOVE to see how great Tom Brady is without hoodie and with that little #### Josh McDaniels calling the shots.

I would suggest there is a greater chance of you winning Powerball in back to back weeks than that happening.

 

[MG345]

now THIS is funny

What's funny is how many people don't understand the ramifications of the ruling.

 

[Old Smiley]

My preferred punishment: do not suspend Tom Brady, but suspend Belichick for one year.

I would LOVE to see how great Tom Brady is without hoodie and with that little #### Josh McDaniels calling the shots.

moleculo: NOW SALT FREE!

 

[Stealthycat]

Passing: T. Brady (NE) - 328 YDS, 4 TD, 2 INT

Super Bowl stats against #1 rated SEA pass defense , properly inflated balls ............ Tom isn't very good after all i guess

 

[cstu]

I miss the Bledsoe Patriots.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

now THIS is funny

What's funny is how many people don't understand the ramifications of the ruling.

whats funny is people hanging onto the word probably like its a life preserver in the middle of the ocean