Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)

[Bayhawks]

And taking that "driving 60 in a 55 zone" analogy further -- if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine. You don't get thrown in jail, and you don't get suspended from your job.

Do you understand what an analogy is? It's not an exact comparison. The point was, if you own up to a minor mistake (i.e.-speeding), chances are your punishment likely won't be as severe (i.e.-maybe a warning). If you don't, and deny, lie, and point fingers, you're likely to receive a stiffer punishment (i.e.-fine, points, etc).

If Brady had admitted his guilt in the beginning, he'd have likely gotten the fine only, but now, it appears his punishment will be more severe.

 

[Anarchy99]

I finally thought of an analogy that in my mind would be similar. Apologies to Seinfeld.

Let's say Nike was the exclusive uniform manufacturer for the league. By rule, all players could only wear Nike uniforms and products.

But Tom likes a Reebox undershirt better because it breathes better and fs more comfortable. Let's say the officials inspect the players before they walk out to the field and for the uniform inspection Brady has on a Nike undershirt, but after the inspection he sneaks back into the locker room and puts on a Reebok.

Two locker room attendants later text each other that they are really pulling one over on the league as they have been getting Brady to wear his preferred Reebok undershirt. Brady later says of course he wears Nike.

So similar narrative but with an under shirt instead. Technically he would be getting a competitive advantage by wearing something more comfortable. And he was breaking the rules by not wearing Nike. How big a suspension? 8 games? A year? Rules are rules.

 

[12punch]

Still curious to where on the scale of cheating this falls on. Yes, they did it and it seems to potentially have given NE an advantage. But didn't they say at the start of this it only changed the weight of the ball by the weight of a dollar bill?

The other two questions I had were about the investigation. If this were a court case, a defendant would not have to testify and self incriminate himself. But in a private investigation you have no choice?

Also, if it is found on appeal or in court that the report did not prove Brady deflated a football or they have nothing that can directly tie him to telling someone else to deflate a ball, theoretically would everything after that get wiped out (not fully cooperating with the investigation, not giving cell phone, lying, etc. ).

I am not trying to make things so Brady skates. Just wondering from a procedural perspective if they haven't directly proven his involvement does that make the rest of the mess after go away.

Scuffing a baseball. The real crime was the coverup.

Joe Niekro got 10 games for his infamous emery board thing. So one game sounds about right for Brady

There's a big difference between all of these supposed analogues. There is NO proven competitive advantage to underinflated footballs. This is all and only about what the finicky quarterback prefers. The number is in the rule book because it's a manufacturer's recommendation. No other reason.

Somebody (can't remember the name -- uses Magnum P.I. as his avatar) said way up thread that it's more like the "Do Not Remove This Tag" tag on a mattress.

As usual, our brain-dead league let a bunch of pearl-clutching moralizing click-hunters completely run away with the narrative, and now the league is responding to that runaway, horse dung narrative.

yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

this has been going on supposedly forever

entire league supposedly knows about it

supposedly yields some great advantage

this is the first time anybody's said a peep about it

still waiting to get that explained

It's a rule. He broke it, probably multiple times. When he got caught, he lied, lied, refused to cooperate, pointed blame elsewhere, and lied some more. He's probably going to get punished. If he had fessed up from the beginning, he'd probably be getting little (if any) punishment. He brought it on himself.

Since this thread seems to love analogies: If you drive 50 in a 45 mph zone, you're breaking the law, even though most people do that (and more). If you drive the same stretch of road for 14 years, and never got stopped for driving 5 miles over the speed limit, it doesn't change the fact that you are breaking the law. If, one day, you do get pulled over, and instead of saying "my bad, officer, I was driving over the speed limit," you say "I wasn't speeding," "everyone else is speeding," and "those extra 5 miles per hour aren't hurting anybody," that officer is far less likely to let you off with a warning.

Sweet analogy except the part where you just proclaim to know that he cheated, was caught, lied, lied again, refused to cooperated, deflected blame, then lied some more.

Literally nothing shows that. It is your opinion, of someone elses opinion.

I think you must have failed to read the fairly lengthy and completely objective investigation which determined that all that stuff probably happened, and anybody who says different is most likely lying.

I actually read it in its entirety the morning it came out.

It hinges off of Walt Andersons testimony that he knew that all the balls were in the ~12.5 area before the game, yet didn't record - this being after the Colts had warned the league and the league warned the officials before the game, including a two hour meeting. What reason would Walt Anderson have to lie? Because he was personally responsible for the balls and not only are they suspected to have been tampered with, he lost them.

You say its completely objective, yet the entire ####### report is slanted. Its an investigation, they are supposed to report their findings, yet you can't find consecutive paragraphs in the Wells report where they don't chime in with their personal opinion of the information, that they cherry picked. They completely dismiss the science based off of their outsourced experiments, which all have glaring holes in them - ignoring completely the terrible history of the firm they chose.

They wrote the thing as investigator, judge and jury. That flys in the ####### face of objectivity.

What are the glaring holes? I'd like to see this backed up.

Read any of the subtext of the individual experiments for the details. For example, for the atmospheric conditions test they wanted to replicate game time conditions. 48-50 degrees, pouring rain, windy. So they thought spritzing a football every 15 minutes with a spray bottle was comparable to cold weather (compared to the locker rooms), even colder rain and for the entire duration of the game.

It's just lazy and looks intentionally poor.

Are you seriously still on this? They intentionally deflated the balls. Period. End of sentence. It happened so deal with it and quit making excuses. You're really sounding pathetic in this thread.

do you even quote, bro?

 

[12punch]

And taking that "driving 60 in a 55 zone" analogy further -- if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine. You don't get thrown in jail, and you don't get suspended from your job.

Do you understand what an analogy is? It's not an exact comparison. The point was, if you own up to a minor mistake (i.e.-speeding), chances are your punishment likely won't be as severe (i.e.-maybe a warning).

so, you're saying the alleged ball deflation was a minor mistake

duly noted

at a few people up in here writing novels crying about a minor mistake

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I finally thought of an analogy that in my mind would be similar. Apologies to Seinfeld.

Let's say Nike was the exclusive uniform manufacturer for the league. By rule, all players could only wear Nike uniforms and products.

But Tom likes a Reebox undershirt better because it breathes better and fs more comfortable. Let's say the officials inspect the players before they walk out to the field and for the uniform inspection Brady has on a Nike undershirt, but after the inspection he sneaks back into the locker room and puts on a Reebok.

Two locker room attendants later text each other that they are really pulling one over on the league as they have been getting Brady to wear his preferred Reebok undershirt. Brady later says of course he wears Nike.

So similar narrative but with an under shirt instead. Technically he would be getting a competitive advantage by wearing something more comfortable. And he was breaking the rules by not wearing Nike. How big a suspension? 8 games? A year? Rules are rules.

This is delusional. I am dumber for having to explain why, but...

If such an arrangement was in place it would be due to a marketing agreement - not because one shirt provides a competitive advantage. A deflated ball provides a competitive advantage for seemingly everyone willing to share an opinion except Aaron Rodgers. That analogy is just plain silly.

 

[rockaction]

I finally thought of an analogy that in my mind would be similar. Apologies to Seinfeld.

Let's say Nike was the exclusive uniform manufacturer for the league. By rule, all players could only wear Nike uniforms and products.

But Tom likes a Reebox undershirt better because it breathes better and fs more comfortable. Let's say the officials inspect the players before they walk out to the field and for the uniform inspection Brady has on a Nike undershirt, but after the inspection he sneaks back into the locker room and puts on a Reebok.

Two locker room attendants later text each other that they are really pulling one over on the league as they have been getting Brady to wear his preferred Reebok undershirt. Brady later says of course he wears Nike.

So similar narrative but with an under shirt instead. Technically he would be getting a competitive advantage by wearing something more comfortable. And he was breaking the rules by not wearing Nike. How big a suspension? 8 games? A year? Rules are rules.

This is delusional. I am dumber for having to explain why, but...

If such an arrangement was in place it would be due to a marketing agreement - not because one shirt provides a competitive advantage. A deflated ball provides a competitive advantage for seemingly everyone willing to share an opinion except Aaron Rodgers. That analogy is just plain silly.

It wasn't an attempt at a proper analogy, it was an op-ed.

 

[12punch]

The NFL says it hasn’t yet made any decision on suspending Tom Brady over Deflategate, contrary to a new report that says the four-time Super Bowl MVP is about to make the wrong kind of history.

New York Daily News NFL columnist Gary Myers reported Friday that Brady will be suspended by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and the decision will be announced next week. Myers cited several unnamed sources who have “a good sense of what goes on” at the NFL’s headquarters.

But NFL spokesman Greg Aiello spokesman said in an email to Boston.com Saturday that “no decisions have been made.”

“It is Gary Myers’ prediction,” Aiello wrote. “The headline is misleading.”

That headline, which you can read here, is “Tom Brady will be suspended by Roger Goodell for role in DeflateGate, announcement expected next week.”

 

[Anarchy99]

My point was, if the initial reports were accurate that a ball under inflated by 1 PSI from the 12.5 Low end of the thresh hold, the ball would still have 99.9 the same weight.

If people want to say Brady deserves punishment for not cooperating with the investigation, fine. But I still would like to see some sort of 100% conclusive study that that minimal change to the ball produced some huge reward in performance. To me, it just seems like his personal preference was below the low end of the accepted range. Based on other similar equines or uniform imfractions over the years, that has always been a fine.

Unlike baseball where guys used corked bats (more distance) or hockey where their sticks were too long or too curved (more reach or more speed and control on shots), what has been shown to show the Pats benefited from what Brady more than likely knew about?

People will bring up the fumbling issue, but in NE if a player fumbles he doesn't play. They value ball security to the point of job security. Sounds like a good incentive to wrap up the football. BB Also has the team practice all week with footballs in terrible condition and also in horrendous weather and fied conditions. They practice to avoid fumbles.

I still think Brady should be suspended, but along the lines of one game for trying to circvent the rules and another game for impeding the investigation. Some of the huge penalties seem a bit excessive to me.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

It's not the weight, it's the grip. A ball at 11.5 is easier to hold onto.

 

[Stealthycat]

baffles me Refs who touch the ball all the time never knew

 

[JIslander]

My point was, if the initial reports were accurate that a ball under inflated by 1 PSI from the 12.5 Low end of the thresh hold, the ball would still have 99.9 the same weight.

If people want to say Brady deserves punishment for not cooperating with the investigation, fine. But I still would like to see some sort of 100% conclusive study that that minimal change to the ball produced some huge reward in performance. To me, it just seems like his personal preference was below the low end of the accepted range. Based on other similar equines or uniform imfractions over the years, that has always been a fine.

Unlike baseball where guys used corked bats (more distance) or hockey where their sticks were too long or too curved (more reach or more speed and control on shots), what has been shown to show the Pats benefited from what Brady more than likely knew about?

People will bring up the fumbling issue, but in NE if a player fumbles he doesn't play. They value ball security to the point of job security. Sounds like a good incentive to wrap up the football. BB Also has the team practice all week with footballs in terrible condition and also in horrendous weather and fied conditions. They practice to avoid fumbles.

I still think Brady should be suspended, but along the lines of one game for trying to circvent the rules and another game for impeding the investigation. Some of the huge penalties seem a bit excessive to me.

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

 

[AB in DC]

Unlike baseball where guys used corked bats (more distance) or hockey where their sticks were too long or too curved (more reach or more speed and control on shots), what has been shown to show the Pats benefited from what Brady more than likely knew about?

By the way, what's the punishment for a non-regulation stick in hockey? I think it's two minutes in the penalty box

The last time someone was caught with a corked bat? Sammy Sosa. He got eight games (5% of the baseball season)

(5% of a football season is about three quarters of a game.)

And those were _proven_ violations.

 

[12punch]

baffles me Refs who touch the ball all the time never knew

from a passage on some jets game --- one of those guys texts the other the day after the game

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs
####ed us...a few of then were at almost 16

yeah, brady has really been getting a great advantage all these years!!

salty trolls be trollin'

 

[massraider]

There really needs to be a book deal in the works for the deflators/memorabilia dealers the P*ts were employing.

I mean, why wouldn't they?

I've thought about this too, and it's basically the only reason I can come up with for thinking that maybe Brady is telling the truth or has somehow convinced himself that he's not culpable.

McNally and the other guy are never going to be employed in the NFL ever again. Their careers are over. But they're going to have 15 minutes in which to cash in with exclusive interviews and the like.

Ballghazi: The inside story of how Tom likes his balls

by Needles Jastemski and Deflator McNally

 

[AB in DC]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

 

[12punch]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

 

[massraider]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Both teams doing it. Out in the open. ignorance of the rules.

If you have text messages between the sideline attendants calling themselves 'Heater McGee' or something, let us know.

 

[12punch]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

yeah, but punishing those teams doesn't get headlines or give the rest of the league a leg up, like letting them use the ladies' tee

goodell loves his parity, and the pats are pretty much the polar opposite of that --- didn't the nfl bring in that salary cap to put a stop to the niners?

suspending minnesota's qb would be more like a reward

 

[JIslander]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

No. Do tell me yours.

 

[Run It Up]

NFL challenges report on Brady suspension

 

[12punch]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Both teams doing it. Out in the open. ignorance of the rules.

salty trolls be trollin'

so, if everybody does it there's no problem, right?

and if you were to do something out in the open in front of 80k people there's no harm done, right?

then the topper -- ignorance of the rules

I know you guys are all wannabe comedians, so I can never tell how much of this stuff is intentional joke writing

dude, that post was gold

 

[The General]

So many bad analogies and examples in past few pages. Teams heating balls on sidelines, players wearing Reebok shirts instead of Nike.

 

[12punch]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

No. Do tell me yours.

none at all

I'm not making any made up claims

 

[AB in DC]

And taking that "driving 60 in a 55 zone" analogy further -- if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine. You don't get thrown in jail, and you don't get suspended from your job.

And every time you get one of those tickets, points go on your license. Rack up enough points, and your license gets revoked.

This isn't the Patriots' first speeding ticket.

For Brady it is.

You want the NFL to come down hard on Kraft? I'm actually with you on that one. Talk about impeding an investigation. Not allowing a follow-up interview with the guy at the center of the controversy? I could list dozens of reasons why this investigation was improper or unreasonable, and that wouldn't even make the top ten. He's not even a full-time Pats employee for crying out loud. Stupid. If anyone gets suspended it should be Kraft.

Take away a fifth round pick for the rules violation, like they did for the Falcons a couple months ago.

Then a $1 million fine for letting a schmuck like McNally anywhere near the footballs in the first place.

That should do it.

 

[AB in DC]

So many bad analogies and examples in past few pages. Teams heating balls on sidelines, players wearing Reebok shirts instead of Nike.

Illegally tampering with the footballs in order to gain a competitive advantage. Same thing the Patriots are accused of.

 

[Bayhawks]

And taking that "driving 60 in a 55 zone" analogy further -- if you get caught speeding, you pay a fine. You don't get thrown in jail, and you don't get suspended from your job.

Do you understand what an analogy is? It's not an exact comparison. The point was, if you own up to a minor mistake (i.e.-speeding), chances are your punishment likely won't be as severe (i.e.-maybe a warning).

so, you're saying the alleged ball deflation was a minor mistake

duly noted

at a few people up in here writing novels crying about a minor mistake

You could have made that note about 100 pages go. I've maintained all along that the PSI of the ball wasn't a big advantage. The reason the Pats/Brady will probably get punished Is because they chose to break a rule, than Brady lied and refused to operate with the investigators.

 

[JIslander]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

No. Do tell me yours.

none at all

I'm not making any made up claims

Well you're claiming you know other teams don't practice similarly with footballs as the Pats.

 

[The General]

So many bad analogies and examples in past few pages. Teams heating balls on sidelines, players wearing Reebok shirts instead of Nike.

Illegally tampering with the footballs in order to gain a competitive advantage. Same thing the Patriots are accused of.

Not remotely the same as having people sneak balls away to alter them after they have been approved for a game.

 

[12punch]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

No. Do tell me yours.

none at all

I'm not making any made up claims

Well you're claiming you know other teams don't practice similarly with footballs as the Pats.

no, I'm claiming you probably and most likely have no idea wtf you're talking about.

I wouldn't have any way of knowing how 32 teams practice.

 

[Bayhawks]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Did they proclaim their innocence to every media outlet around? Did they bluster and boast and demand apologies when they were found to be innocent? Did they conduct their own investigation and claim no one had done anything wrong (to have that contradicted by team-issued cell phones that thy should have had access to)? Did they vow to cooperate fully with the NFL investigation &fail to do do? I didn't think so. Maybe that explains their punishment.

 

[Run It Up]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Did they proclaim their innocence to every media outlet around? Did they bluster and boast and demand apologies when they were found to be innocent? Did they conduct their own investigation and claim no one had done anything wrong (to have that contradicted by team-issued cell phones that thy should have had access to)? Did they vow to cooperate fully with the NFL investigation &fail to do do? I didn't think so. Maybe that explains their punishment.

They actually first denied that they did it.

 

[JIslander]

I'm sure all teams practice similarly to not fumble; they just don't let air out of footballs after inspection. One could also say, as you seem to imply, that the Pats pay more attention to footballs than other teams...so not far fetched Tommy boy did what he did...

is this based on your years of experience in the nfl?

yeah, I'm sure everybody does everything similarly, that's why the pats have dominated the league for 15 yrs.

No. Do tell me yours.

none at all

I'm not making any made up claims

Well you're claiming you know other teams don't practice similarly with footballs as the Pats.

no, I'm claiming you probably and most likely have no idea wtf you're talking about.

I wouldn't have any way of knowing how 32 teams practice.

*

 

[mbuehner]

So many bad analogies and examples in past few pages. Teams heating balls on sidelines, players wearing Reebok shirts instead of Nike.

Pumping noise into the stadium?

 

[12punch]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Did they proclaim their innocence to every media outlet around? Did they bluster and boast and demand apologies when they were found to be innocent? Did they conduct their own investigation and claim no one had done anything wrong (to have that contradicted by team-issued cell phones that thy should have had access to)? Did they vow to cooperate fully with the NFL investigation &fail to do do? I didn't think so. Maybe that explains their punishment.

They actually first denied that they did it.

burn

 

[Stealthycat]

There is no "ignorance" of the rules .... Panthers and Vikings cheated, both teams need to have fines, draft picks taken and QB's sitting

Right? cheating is cheating

[SIZE=12pt]MINNEAPOLIS -- The Minnesota Vikingshttp://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings[/SIZE] played their coldest home game in 38 years on Sunday, when they beat the Carolina Panthers in 12-degree temperatures at TCF Bank Stadium.

[SIZE=12pt]As both teams dealt with the freezing temperatures, Fox cameras showed sideline attendants using heaters to warm up game balls, which is against league rules. NFL vice president of officiating Dean Blandino said Monday morning on NFL Network that officials warned both the Vikings and Panthers not to heat up the balls during Sunday's game, and would remind teams this week not to heat game balls.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]"You can't do anything with the footballs in terms of any artificial, whether you're heating them up, whether it's a regular game ball or kicking ball, you can't do anything to the football," Blandino said. "So that was noticed during the game, both teams were made aware of it during the game and we will certainly remind the clubs as we get into more cold weather games that you can't do anything with the football in terms of heating them up with those sideline heaters."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]By rule, the home team is responsible for providing the game balls. The footage shown on NFL Network is from the Vikings' sideline,http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ms-not-to-warm-footballs?campaign=Twitter_atl[/SIZE] though there are attendants from both teams on both sidelines and a league source said the Vikings weren't heating up the balls during the game.

[SIZE=12pt]Zimmer said he hadn't heard anything from the league about it on Monday, adding, "Somebody told me (Carolina's) ball boys were doing it."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Ball boys are allowed to carry hand heaters, as Fox officiating analyst Mike Pereira pointed out, but they are not allowed to put game balls in front of sideline heaters. The Vikings have two December home games on their schedule -- this Sunday against the New York Jets and Dec. 28 against the Chicago Bears. After the league sent out a warning, it stands to reason they'll be watching the sidelines closely in cold-weather games this month.[/SIZE]

 

[Bayhawks]

And speaking of proven violations: in December, two teams were caught tampering with a football during a game. Video evidence and everything. What was the punishment? Nothing. They got off with a warning.

Did they proclaim their innocence to every media outlet around? Did they bluster and boast and demand apologies when they were found to be innocent? Did they conduct their own investigation and claim no one had done anything wrong (to have that contradicted by team-issued cell phones that thy should have had access to)? Did they vow to cooperate fully with the NFL investigation &fail to do do? I didn't think so. Maybe that explains their punishment.

They actually first denied that they did it.

Eburn

Not really. When exactly did they deny they did it? And hen did they conduct an investigation that "proved" they did nothing wrong (which was completely fabricated), then interfere its the NFLs investigation? Oh, thats right, they didn't.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

There are professional out there Straw Graspers who think that folks in this thread are taking things too far. Reebok shirts? Heaters? Really?

 

[David Dodds]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear this out.

Had this been something that came out of left field and we did not know if it was a first time occurrence or not, then I could see a slap on the wrist. But the texts point to a long-time abuse of said rules. One of the guys has the nickname "deflator". Pretty certain this happened more than once (and possibly for as long as 6-7 years). The Colts asked the league to look into this BEFORE the game was even played and like clockwork, the Patriots were caught with altered footballs.

It will be interesting to see if history judges him the same way it does the other top performers who did everything to win (Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds come to mind).

 

[BroadwayG]

So many bad analogies and examples in past few pages. Teams heating balls on sidelines, players wearing Reebok shirts instead of Nike.

Illegally tampering with the footballs in order to gain a competitive advantage. Same thing the Patriots are accused of.

Not remotely the same as having people sneak balls away to alter them after they have been approved for a game.

Yeah, the heaters didn't bother with sneaking.

 

[mbuehner]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear that out.

'The team' didnt do anything, if you believe the report. Brady and his two stooges, as far as we know, were the only ones involved.

The fumble study was debunked. Repeatedly.

 

[massraider]

Sneaky Heaters!

 

[identikit]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear that out.

'The team' didnt do anything, if you believe the report. Brady and his two stooges, as far as we know, were the only ones involved.

The fumble study was debunked. Repeatedly.

Doesn't matter if it was debunked or not.

 

[geoff8695]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear that out.

'The team' didnt do anything, if you believe the report. Brady and his two stooges, as far as we know, were the only ones involved.

The fumble study was debunked. Repeatedly.

I'm sure it's been posted before but do you have any issues with this article, A Last Look at NEs Fumbles?

Doesn't sound to me like it's been debunked - but it does sound like you can choose to view this issue through rose colored glasses if you so desire...

NE is #2 since '06, but is #1 since '07, #1 since '08, #1 since '09...you get the picture. The string of consecutive seasons of over-performance is unmistakable. One year where they might be nipped by randomness (and just barely) does not mean they don't have an advantage. Besides, the standard here isn't that unless NE is an extreme outlier they are in the clear. It's misleading to imply otherwise. The standard should be: which explanation is the data most consistent with? The tables above show that the data is exactly what we'd expect if a team had an advantage but extremely unusual and unlikely to be observed by chance alone.

 

[12punch]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear this out.

Had this been something that came out of left field and we did not know if it was a first time occurrence or not, then I could see a slap on the wrist. But the texts point to a long-time abuse of said rules. One of the guys has the nickname "deflator". Pretty certain this happened more than once (and possibly for as long as 6-7 years). The Colts asked the league to look into this BEFORE the game was even played and like clockwork, the Patriots were caught with altered footballs.

It will be interesting to see if history judges him the same way it does the other top performers who did everything to win (Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds come to mind).

the bolded is entirely wrong, and tells me you didn't actually read the document -- not that I'd fault anybody on that.

I didn't waste time reading 240 pages of nonsense, either, but I at least read and reposted parts of it before offering up an opinion on those particular parts.

the fumble thing has been debunked and is now basically out there with bigfoot in the realm of urban legend just past imaginationland --- as tends to happen to most of the half-assed cooked up criticisms of the pats.

the rest of your post is really nothing other than assumptions and slanderous opinion based on some apparent hard on for the pats.

being a fan of such a successful team maybe I don't have the frustration and negativity that produces this kind of hate for some other team, so I can't really fault you on that, although I'm kind of surprised you'd waste time trolling fans of a team for reaction on your own site.

btw, I really don't understand that 'hard on for _____' expression --- if you had a hard on for something wouldn't that mean that you liked and wanted it?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear this out.

Had this been something that came out of left field and we did not know if it was a first time occurrence or not, then I could see a slap on the wrist. But the texts point to a long-time abuse of said rules. One of the guys has the nickname "deflator". Pretty certain this happened more than once (and possibly for as long as 6-7 years). The Colts asked the league to look into this BEFORE the game was even played and like clockwork, the Patriots were caught with altered footballs.

It will be interesting to see if history judges him the same way it does the other top performers who did everything to win (Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds come to mind).

I don't think Brady is on the extreme of those guys, but otherwise this is a damn fine post.

 

[mbuehner]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear that out.

'The team' didnt do anything, if you believe the report. Brady and his two stooges, as far as we know, were the only ones involved.The fumble study was debunked. Repeatedly.

I'm sure it's been posted before but do you have any issues with this article, A Last Look at NEs Fumbles?

Doesn't sound to me like it's been debunked - but it does sound like you can choose to view this issue through rose colored glasses if you so desire...

NE is #2 since '06, but is #1 since '07, #1 since '08, #1 since '09...you get the picture. The string of consecutive seasons of over-performance is unmistakable. One year where they might be nipped by randomness (and just barely) does not mean they don't have an advantage.

Besides, the standard here isn't that unless NE is an extreme outlier they are in the clear. It's misleading to imply otherwise. The standard should be: which explanation is the data most consistent with? The tables above show that the data is exactly what we'd expect if a team had an advantage but extremely unusual and unlikely to be observed by chance alone.

Also from your link:

NE is not an outlier in any sense. They are actually #2 on the list after ATL for the period since 2006. There are other teams with nearly as impressive over-performance as NE for several-year stretches, such as ATL, IND, and DET. Should we also be investigating ATL for ball tampering?"

Indeed. Moreover, NE is a good football team, in respects undeniable and not attributable to football inflation. There is a Wyatt Earp fallacy at work here. You should EXPECT the best team of the last decade to have unusual positive statistics compared to less successful teams.

 

[T J]

baffles me Refs who touch the ball all the time never knew

from a passage on some jets game --- one of those guys texts the other the day after the game

I checked some of the balls this morn... The refs

####ed us...a few of then were at almost 16

yeah, brady has really been getting a great advantage all these years!!

salty trolls be trollin'

You don't really think you're getting over on anyone in this thread do you?

 

[AB in DC]

If it did not give Tom an advantage, then why would the team risk doing this repeatedly? This wasn't them submitting under-inflated balls and then say ah shucks if the refs caught it. It was the team altering the balls after they were inspected. That's cheating.

The texts point to a long-standing issue with the Patriots deflating the balls after the referees inspected them. I think the corked bat analogy is perfect. Brady was using performance enhancing equipment. Equipment below acceptable tolerances to fit his smallish hands. This also aided him, the RBs and pass catchers in bad weather where gripping a below standard football is an advantage. The fumble stats bear this out.

Had this been something that came out of left field and we did not know if it was a first time occurrence or not, then I could see a slap on the wrist. But the texts point to a long-time abuse of said rules. One of the guys has the nickname "deflator". Pretty certain this happened more than once (and possibly for as long as 6-7 years). The Colts asked the league to look into this BEFORE the game was even played and like clockwork, the Patriots were caught with altered footballs.

It will be interesting to see if history judges him the same way it does the other top performers who did everything to win (Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds come to mind).

None of the bold statements are based on anything in the Wells report. In fact the report, as biased as it is, contains absolutely no conclusions on those issues.

 

[AB in DC]

Correction -- the report specifically said that "the team" was not at fault. Two employees were at fault, and one players was "generally aware" of it. That's it.

 

[12punch]

Also from your link:

NE is not an outlier in any sense. They are actually #2 on the list after ATL for the period since 2006. There are other teams with nearly as impressive over-performance as NE for several-year stretches, such as ATL, IND, and DET. Should we also be investigating ATL for ball tampering?"

Indeed. Moreover, NE is a good football team, in respects undeniable and not attributable to football inflation. There is a Wyatt Earp fallacy at work here. You should EXPECT the best team of the last decade to have unusual positive statistics compared to less successful teams.

well, I think the zinger is filtering out dome teams, or something like that --- I read however many months ago.

if I remember, there's some site, or some post debunking it fairly extensively, if you've seen that.

the problem with a lot of these kinds of half-assed amateur statistics you see so often in the fantasy football realm is they either start with a premise and cook the whole thing up to support it with cherry picked endpoints, or whatever else, or they just use a lot of lazy and ignorant methodology, and then layer on some sleight of hand summary to obfuscate correlation with causation.

not too different from some hot chick who won't put out moving in next door coincides with your crops failing so you burn her at the stake.

edit: but the wyatt earp thing is on point.

it's funny because the primary evidence for the patriots cheating comes down to their record, which we know is a product of them cheating.