Patriots being investigated after Colts game (9 Viewers)

[moleculo]

Here's my take on the whole thing, lemme know what you guys think.

The Pats were deflating their balls post inspection. The NFL, per the Colt and Ravens complaints, intended to run a spot check, particularly if they got ahold of one of the Pats balls on the sideline to provide a 'probable cause' for the half-time check (hence NFL Executive VP Troy Vincent just 'by chance' walking the Colts sideline).

Referee Walter Anderson was given a minor heads up to watch the balls. He demonstrably didnt take this very seriously, as he lost track of the balls before kickoff and had a minor freakout. That being the case, its entirely likely Anderson either didnt pay careful attention to the pressure of the balls (he later improbably claimed all of them were delivered within .1psi of perfect, which is hard to fathom), or he didnt measure them at all (we discussed to death in this thread how uncomfortable the refs seemed with the gauges in the Bears video.

The NFL also had no idea that footballs lost pressure in cold or wet conditions. So when the tested the Patriots ball (three times!) allegedly on a complaint from a Colts player, once it showed under 12.5psi they figure, smoking gun. Therefore, as far as the NFL was concerned, if they get balls reading under 12.5psi at halftime, game set match. From that point of view, everything else makes a lot more sense.

Halftime comes and they bring all the balls in. Two different refs are assigned to measure, with 2 different gauges. The gauges (hilariously) dont match each other by about .3psi. The refs measure and all the Pats balls are under to some degree. As far as the sting goes, thats all they need to know. Again, they have no idea about the ideal gas law issues.

So either they fill up the Pats balls at that point, or they proceed to testing Colts balls. Either way, the gauges were switched between refs somehow.

The game finishes in a second half blowout. The report leaks with massively incorrect details, which doesnt really bother the NFL because from their point of view they have the Pats dead to rights, their balls were under inflated- they dont need any more evidence or a mechanism for who did it. In fact they might not want to know how it happened. Slap a fine on the Patriots organization after the season when all this is forgotten and move on, no need to bring the leagues most popular player into this. Simple story line- balls were underinflated at half time, Pats are guilty.

Then some wiseacre on the internet brings up the Ideal Gas Law, and the league suddenly has a much bigger problem. They havent done anything like the investigation needed to definitively prove anything from the measurements difference between pre-game and halftime. In fact they didnt even record the pregame pressures! This went from cut and dried to making the league look like the chumps.

First priority- kick the can past the season. Second priority- protect the leagues reputation. Its a GODSEND that they had the video tape of the ball boy, which introduces some new circumstancial evidence, but theyre going to need more and the pressure data is a joke. Enter Mr. Wells. Another godsend- Larry and Curly cant stop yapping on their phones. Now theyve got a pretty good circumstancial case, but it creates a new problem- Moe, AKA Tom Brady. This has now turned from a simple sweep and clear into a total cluster####. The more definitive the details, the bigger this story must get, so the simple slap on the wrist of the Pats is no longer viable. Now you have to go after the leagues golden boy, and you need as much proof or quasi-proof as you can pile up.

So the Wells report is a billion pages long with all kinds of scientific tests, but it glosses over some serious issues with the actual measurements. In fact it sugar coats the whole process, and roundly ignores the elephant in the room- that they had no reliable pre-game data to compare anything to. They also obfuscate a few details about the half time test to hide the fact that, unbeknown to the refs, the time differential between when each teams balls were tested would be a critical part of the testing, and that data was never recorded. And since you have no sound pre-game data, the only actual physical proof you can present is that the Colts balls lost less pressure than the Patriots balls. Wells papered that little detail over.

Finally- report comes out and the NFL, in typical cynical form, waits to see what the reaction will be before announcing the penalties.

The end?

Pick it apart boys, im curious to see what holes there are.

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

 

[bostonfred]

I think what really was happening is that the Patriots were in fact inflating footballs to the bare minimum to pass inspection, and that they knew the balls would continue to get softer by game time. I think they did this to gain an advantage, but I don't think they considered it cheating.

that's really nonsensical, though --- it's an unnecessary layer of conspiracy theorist spin reverse engineered from a conclusion.

by that same logic, andrew luck sets his balls at 13 because he knows they'll drop down a pound to an illegal 12 range.

these guys have all thrown thousands of balls in all different environments throughout their lives, so they may very well have some implicit, if not explicit, understanding of temperature on the ball's pressure or feel, but to paint the picture that he calculates out the pressures, picks out a couple dozen balls that they've been working for however long, and submits a 12.5 expecting an 11.5 is really very nutty.

these balls have all been measured at varying psi, including the single ball the colts intercepted that has 3 different readings, but I'm supposed to believe that 11.5 is the magic number that he targets and he submits balls at varying pressures according to the temp for the game, instead of just trying to slide 11.5s through like rodgers would, knowing te refs are very lax in checking that stuff.

people really need to think these things through and see how crazy paranoid they sound.

i tend to think bill was telling the truth - they give the balls to the refs and say set them to 12.5. I also think that they knew that the balls would deflate some after that in the cold. I think they gained an advantage from that. I don't think it was an illegal advantage, or at least, I think they believed it was legal. It explains all the allegations and responses by all parties - the league legitimately thinking they're guilty, the pats going scorched earth, science showing that it was pretty darn close but just a little sketchy, all of it makes more sense if they were right on the line but not quite over it.

 

[mbuehner]

It's more likely that Wells wanted revenge for losing 500K gambling on the Seahawks in the Super Bowl than this was an NFL sting/setup.

It depends what you mean by sting. I dont think its arguable that the League was acting out of character that day, and no-one disputes that the Colts had made the balls an issue.

If theres a grey area between a sting and just intending to apply careful scrutiny to one area of the game that is never scrutinized, this is it. An NFL VP was on the Colts sideline. They get a Pats ball and quickly measure it 3 TIMES, making down the readings on a piece of tape. Then come the 13 minute halftime they begin a precision operation to test the Patriots balls and carefully record all the data, with 2 independent refs and 2 different gauges. All under the eyes of the Head of NFL Officiating and two other NFL executives. Thats a hell of a thing to throw together in less than 13 minutes.

 

[bostonfred]

The idea that Goodell and the NFL went after the Patriots and one of their most popular players is preposterous.

Which seems more likely:

A. Goodell decided he disliked the Patriots and Brady and wanted to take them down. So he setup a sting operation to catch them cheating so that they could tarnish the Super Bowl with the whole thing, make the NFL look bad, piss off his biggest supporter of any owner, and tarnish the reputation of one of its biggest stars

Or

B. The Patriots cheated, the league reluctantly looked into it, the media found out, Kraft immediately ratcheted things up to 1,000,000 by blasting the NFL and Goodell, and Goodell had no choice but to follow through with a full investigation that showed one of their teams was most likely cheating for quite some time.

b, but it amounts to the same thing. Once kraft demanded an apology, the results of the Wells report were determined. Goodell couldn't come back empty handed after letting the pats swing like that during super bowl week. This was the only way for him to save face.

 

[moleculo]

I think what really was happening is that the Patriots were in fact inflating footballs to the bare minimum to pass inspection, and that they knew the balls would continue to get softer by game time. I think they did this to gain an advantage, but I don't think they considered it cheating.

that's really nonsensical, though --- it's an unnecessary layer of conspiracy theorist spin reverse engineered from a conclusion.

by that same logic, andrew luck sets his balls at 13 because he knows they'll drop down a pound to an illegal 12 range.

these guys have all thrown thousands of balls in all different environments throughout their lives, so they may very well have some implicit, if not explicit, understanding of temperature on the ball's pressure or feel, but to paint the picture that he calculates out the pressures, picks out a couple dozen balls that they've been working for however long, and submits a 12.5 expecting an 11.5 is really very nutty.

these balls have all been measured at varying psi, including the single ball the colts intercepted that has 3 different readings, but I'm supposed to believe that 11.5 is the magic number that he targets and he submits balls at varying pressures according to the temp for the game, instead of just trying to slide 11.5s through like rodgers would, knowing te refs are very lax in checking that stuff.

people really need to think these things through and see how crazy paranoid they sound.

i tend to think bill was telling the truth - they give the balls to the refs and say set them to 12.5. I also think that they knew that the balls would deflate some after that in the cold. I think they gained an advantage from that. I don't think it was an illegal advantage, or at least, I think they believed it was legal. It explains all the allegations and responses by all parties - the league legitimately thinking they're guilty, the pats going scorched earth, science showing that it was pretty darn close but just a little sketchy, all of it makes more sense if they were right on the line but not quite over it.

It's unnecessary though. If he wants the balls a little softer in the cold, he probably does when its warm too. Really, there is no scenario where he would want his balls firm, so why not submit @ 12.5 max all the time?

 

[bostonfred]

It's more likely that Wells wanted revenge for losing 500K gambling on the Seahawks in the Super Bowl than this was an NFL sting/setup.

It depends what you mean by sting. I dont think its arguable that the League was acting out of character that day, and no-one disputes that the Colts had made the balls an issue.

If theres a grey area between a sting and just intending to apply careful scrutiny to one area of the game that is never scrutinized, this is it. An NFL VP was on the Colts sideline. They get a Pats ball and quickly measure it 3 TIMES, making down the readings on a piece of tape. Then come the 13 minute halftime they begin a precision operation to test the Patriots balls and carefully record all the data, with 2 independent refs and 2 different gauges. All under the eyes of the Head of NFL Officiating and two other NFL executives. Thats a hell of a thing to throw together in less than 13 minutes.

almost as hard to imagine as a guy with a needle deflating a dozen balls the fraction of a psi necessary to explain the difference between the actual readings and what exponent said the readings should have been, all in under two minutes.

 

[mbuehner]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

 

[The General]

12 punch unraveling.

 

[12punch]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/

Interesting, the "deflator" was hired the year their fumble numbers started to dramatically get better, nothing to see here, move along...

Jim McNally is the Officials Locker Room attendant for the Patriots
. He has been employed by the Patriots as a seasonal or part-time employee for the past 32 years

shark pool be sharkin'

that's a pretty good run for fumble stats

 

[bostonfred]

I think what really was happening is that the Patriots were in fact inflating footballs to the bare minimum to pass inspection, and that they knew the balls would continue to get softer by game time. I think they did this to gain an advantage, but I don't think they considered it cheating.

that's really nonsensical, though --- it's an unnecessary layer of conspiracy theorist spin reverse engineered from a conclusion.

by that same logic, andrew luck sets his balls at 13 because he knows they'll drop down a pound to an illegal 12 range.

these guys have all thrown thousands of balls in all different environments throughout their lives, so they may very well have some implicit, if not explicit, understanding of temperature on the ball's pressure or feel, but to paint the picture that he calculates out the pressures, picks out a couple dozen balls that they've been working for however long, and submits a 12.5 expecting an 11.5 is really very nutty.

these balls have all been measured at varying psi, including the single ball the colts intercepted that has 3 different readings, but I'm supposed to believe that 11.5 is the magic number that he targets and he submits balls at varying pressures according to the temp for the game, instead of just trying to slide 11.5s through like rodgers would, knowing te refs are very lax in checking that stuff.

people really need to think these things through and see how crazy paranoid they sound.

i tend to think bill was telling the truth - they give the balls to the refs and say set them to 12.5. I also think that they knew that the balls would deflate some after that in the cold. I think they gained an advantage from that. I don't think it was an illegal advantage, or at least, I think they believed it was legal. It explains all the allegations and responses by all parties - the league legitimately thinking they're guilty, the pats going scorched earth, science showing that it was pretty darn close but just a little sketchy, all of it makes more sense if they were right on the line but not quite over it.

It's unnecessary though. If he wants the balls a little softer in the cold, he probably does when its warm too. Really, there is no scenario where he would want his balls firm, so why not submit @ 12.5 max all the time?

I think they did. I think the difference is if you pump them up outside and hand them in at 12.5 on a hot day then they will stay at 12.5. If you pump them up inside to 12.5 or so and tell the refs to pump them to 12.5, the refs will pass the inspection but they will deflate more during the game. It explains why other teams thought the pats were deflating balls, and why they were pissed when the refs accidentally jacked them up to 16 that time. It's much simpler than the manual deflation theory

 

[squistion]

12 punch unraveling.

How can you tell?

 

[The General]

12 punch unraveling.

How can you tell?

He's becoming more agitated. Big red flag. Tread lightly.

 

[Bucky86]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/

Interesting, the "deflator" was hired the year their fumble numbers started to dramatically get better, nothing to see here, move along...

Jim McNally is the Officials Locker Room attendant for the Patriots
. He has been employed by the Patriots as a seasonal or part-time employee for the past 32 years

shark pool be sharkin'

that's a pretty good run for fumble stats

HAS HELD HIS CURRENT TITLE SINCE 2007. Coincidentally when QB's were allowed to break in their own balls.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

Unless some were kept in a warmish, dry, ball bag while others where removed for play and exposed more directly to the weather, and therefore to the temperature effect of the ideal gas law and the effect of evaporative cooling. Then, of course one would expect no such thing. Somehow I doubt that all the balls were exposed to elements equally. In fact, had the readings come back as you suggest maybe they should have, more or less completely consistent, I would cite that as some evidence of fraud in the readings, being able to easily observe that only a few balls are taken out of the bag at any time, and certainly not the entire games worth in the first half.

Of course, that's my view only.

 

[12punch]

If I've actually learned anything from this whole thing it's thank ####### Christ most shark pool regulars can't figure out idp

 

[The General]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/

Interesting, the "deflator" was hired the year their fumble numbers started to dramatically get better, nothing to see here, move along...

Jim McNally is the Officials Locker Room attendant for the Patriots
. He has been employed by the Patriots as a seasonal or part-time employee for the past 32 years

shark pool be sharkin'

that's a pretty good run for fumble stats

HAS HELD HIS CURRENT TITLE SINCE 2007. Coincidentally when QB's were allowed to break in their own balls.

I am constantly amazed by the swings and misses.

 

[moleculo]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

The problem is that, per the exponent report, the expected halftime measurements is a range, even with a fixed starting pressure. A wet ball would be expected to be cooler than a dry one, and damp would range somewhere in between.I wouldn't expect game used balls, of varying moisture levels and handling g, to all be identical temps. I'd be suspicious of fudging the data if they were.

The Pats balls all fell to below the expected pressure...that's the problem here.

 

[amnesiac]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

 

[BroadwayG]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

The problem is that, per the exponent report, the expected halftime measurements is a range, even with a fixed starting pressure. A wet ball would be expected to be cooler than a dry one, and damp would range somewhere in between.I wouldn't expect game used balls, of varying moisture levels and handling g, to all be identical temps. I'd be suspicious of fudging the data if they were.

The Pats balls all fell to below the expected pressure...that's the problem here.

That depends on which gauge was used for pregame. The one Anderson remembers using, or the one that paints the picture of the Pats cheating.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow. Check out this tidbit from the wellsreportcontext.com. I clicked the following link: Click here for Nobel Laureate Roderick MacKinnon’s scientific conclusion

Reading the intro, there is this disclaimer: Professor MacKinnon has no business or personal relationship with the Patriots. When news of the investigation became public, he offered his scientific expertise to the team.

Roderick MacKinnion is co-founder of Flex Pharma, where he serves on the Scientific Advisors Board and the Board of Directors.

One member of their "team of investors" is none other than The Kraft Group.

From October 23, 2014 issue of the Boston Globe: Flex Pharma developing treatments for muscle cramps:

...

Flex Pharma is developing not only a prescription medicine that would take a minimum of five years to win Food and Drug Administration approval but also a sports beverage that could be sold in stores as early as 2016.

Unlike Gatorade, which some athletes drink to help with cramps, Flex Pharma will seek to meet the Federal Trade Commission’s standards for advertising clinically proven benefits. The company will also draw on the consumer goods expertise of board member John Sculley, the former chief executive of Apple Inc. and former president of PepsiCo Inc.

Cramping has long been a high-profile employment hazard for professional athletes, dramatized this year when the Miami Heat’s LeBron James was forced to leave the opening game of the NBA finals because of severe leg cramping.

So it may be no coincidence that several owners of professional sports teams, including Wyc Grousbeck and Steve Pagliuca of the Boston Celtics, and the Kraft Group of the New England Patriots, were among the outside investors joining in a $40 million funding round that Flex Pharma disclosed last month.

...

Yep, no business or personal relationships there.

 

[12punch]

I think what really was happening is that the Patriots were in fact inflating footballs to the bare minimum to pass inspection, and that they knew the balls would continue to get softer by game time. I think they did this to gain an advantage, but I don't think they considered it cheating.

that's really nonsensical, though --- it's an unnecessary layer of conspiracy theorist spin reverse engineered from a conclusion.

by that same logic, andrew luck sets his balls at 13 because he knows they'll drop down a pound to an illegal 12 range.

these guys have all thrown thousands of balls in all different environments throughout their lives, so they may very well have some implicit, if not explicit, understanding of temperature on the ball's pressure or feel, but to paint the picture that he calculates out the pressures, picks out a couple dozen balls that they've been working for however long, and submits a 12.5 expecting an 11.5 is really very nutty.

these balls have all been measured at varying psi, including the single ball the colts intercepted that has 3 different readings, but I'm supposed to believe that 11.5 is the magic number that he targets and he submits balls at varying pressures according to the temp for the game, instead of just trying to slide 11.5s through like rodgers would, knowing te refs are very lax in checking that stuff.

people really need to think these things through and see how crazy paranoid they sound.

i tend to think bill was telling the truth - they give the balls to the refs and say set them to 12.5. I also think that they knew that the balls would deflate some after that in the cold. I think they gained an advantage from that. I don't think it was an illegal advantage, or at least, I think they believed it was legal. It explains all the allegations and responses by all parties - the league legitimately thinking they're guilty, the pats going scorched earth, science showing that it was pretty darn close but just a little sketchy, all of it makes more sense if they were right on the line but not quite over it.

OK, again, by claiming they got an advantage you're claiming weather only affects their balls.

It is very nutty

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

 

[ratbast]

I read the rebuttal. The weight loss excuse is ridiculous however, its so wacky it might be true! I thought the rest of the arguments seemed solid.

Pats Homer. I will say that this drama stinks. Pats Nation should be on top of the world.

And I see Run and Punch chime in with passion for their team. Im prood of you guys....don't stop my brothers.

 

[mbuehner]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

The problem is that, per the exponent report, the expected halftime measurements is a range, even with a fixed starting pressure. A wet ball would be expected to be cooler than a dry one, and damp would range somewhere in between.I wouldn't expect game used balls, of varying moisture levels and handling g, to all be identical temps. I'd be suspicious of fudging the data if they were.

The Pats balls all fell to below the expected pressure...that's the problem here.

Understood, but (and I believe they were deflated) you run into a nasty game of 'just how wet were the pats balls' and 'do we really know they were initially measured at 12.5 or could it be 12.4'? These are rally minute differences at the end of the day. If the temp outside was a couple degrees colder, if the wind chill affected them, if they were wetter than expected. My point is, Well and the NFL knew that was a losing game, theres reasonable doubt all over the place because conditions were not well measured and small difference have big effects on such a small swing.

So thats why the relationship to the Colts balls was used as the smoking gun and not the raw temperatures.

 

[amnesiac]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

interesting. in the medical field we have a saying: "If it's not written down, it didn't happen."

 

[mbuehner]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Being admitted into evidence and being torn apart on cross are two very different things. It is absolutely unreasonable to hold the pre-game memories of 1 guy to the same level of respect as 2 refs reading results on 2 different instruments, recorded by a 3rd party and witnessed by NFL executives. People will have their own judgment on how strongly to weigh either technique, but by no means are they equivalent or even close.

 

[BroadwayG]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Why did the report use his remembered numbers but not his remembered gauge?

 

[mbuehner]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Why did the report use his remembered numbers but not his remembered gauge?

And thats not just being pedantic- if you read the report they hold his recollection of the numbers as sacrosanct, but they question which gauge he claimed to use until they got the answer that it was possible he misremembered.

Thats the interesting thing about this report, you can see how the authors are trying to swing things. Once you see how they are swinging them, you can figure out why (and it aint cuz the Pats are innocent).

 

[Ojaays]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/

Interesting, the "deflator" was hired the year their fumble numbers started to dramatically get better, nothing to see here, move along...

Jim McNally is the Officials Locker Room attendant for the Patriots

. He has been employed by the Patriots as a seasonal or part-time employee for the past 32 years

shark pool be sharkin'

that's a pretty good run for fumble stats

HAS HELD HIS CURRENT TITLE SINCE 2007. Coincidentally when QB's were allowed to break in their own balls.

Damn, that will leave a mark.12 punch

You are the guy I would love to play poker with.

You'd just keep rationalizing your losing until you were out of money.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The problem with all of this is you have on one side Goodell and the NFL offices. They have a history of incompetence, lying and being focused on protecting the shield at all cost. Not to mention they have zero consistency on punishment to teams and players. On the other side you have a team with a history/perception of constantly pushing the envelope on league rules and an arrogance about how they go about their business. They think they are the smartest men in the room.

Lot of holes can be poked both in the Wells Report as well as the Pats rebuttal. It is a bit like choosing sides when Lenny Dyksta and Mitch Williams went at it during that roast.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

The problem is that, per the exponent report, the expected halftime measurements is a range, even with a fixed starting pressure. A wet ball would be expected to be cooler than a dry one, and damp would range somewhere in between.I wouldn't expect game used balls, of varying moisture levels and handling g, to all be identical temps. I'd be suspicious of fudging the data if they were.

The Pats balls all fell to below the expected pressure...that's the problem here.

Understood, but (and I believe they were deflated) you run into a nasty game of 'just how wet were the pats balls' and 'do we really know they were initially measured at 12.5 or could it be 12.4'? These are rally minute differences at the end of the day. If the temp outside was a couple degrees colder, if the wind chill affected them, if they were wetter than expected. My point is, Well and the NFL knew that was a losing game, theres reasonable doubt all over the place because conditions were not well measured and small difference have big effects on such a small swing.

So thats why the relationship to the Colts balls was used as the smoking gun and not the raw temperatures.

I, and I suspect most, would agree that were this a question of reasonable doubt that the standard may not have been met. for me this quanta of evidence would not support that standard. In fact, if you had the wherewithal to go back to the early, pre-Wells Report part of this thread you will notice that myself, and many others were among the first to raise all of the various issues relating to physics.

Here's the thing though. Imperfect though the process was, the process did produce evidence. While no single piece of that evidence amounts to a smoking gun, slam dunk conclusion, it is more than sufficient to conclude, taken as a reinforcing totality, to at least a preponderance of the evidence that Brady is culpable. For me I would be comfortable with the more certain conclusion of saying he knowingly participated in awarding those who were wrongfully deflating the balls to at least a certainty level of clear and convincing evidence.

Beyond a reasonable doubt, no, I don't see how anyone gets there. If folks want to take refuge or solace in that certainty gap that is a matter for their conscience. In my mind it is not really relevant to the current disciplinary issue.

Still, much respect, you seem an imminently reasonable fellow.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Being admitted into evidence and being torn apart on cross are two very different things. It is absolutely unreasonable to hold the pre-game memories of 1 guy to the same level of respect as 2 refs reading results on 2 different instruments, recorded by a 3rd party and witnessed by NFL executives. People will have their own judgment on how strongly to weigh either technique, but by no means are they equivalent or even close.

Nor would I argue that point.

 

[mbuehner]

Well, you are basically tossing out all measurement data because you don't trust the testimony of the league official WRT pre-game pressure measurement. I think that's a pretty key part aspect.

The problem is, its not even data. It wasnt even written down. You're relying on a guys recollection who has a vested interest in not seeming like he didnt take it seriously.

But i'd say the most critical problem is that he claims he specifically remembers all the Pats balls being 12.5 psi exactly, and all the Colts balls being either 13.0 or 13.1 (a very specific answer).

If you take that seriously, all the Colts balls should have been identical at halftime as well. It just seems wildly unlikely that 48 balls were within a .1psi range. And if Anderson was wrong or lying, we dont know anything about what any of the pregame numbers were. He could have been spitballing and the were all within .2 or .3psi, or he could have just not tested them, or just made sure they werent radically out there (like 9.0 or 15.0).

The problem is that, per the exponent report, the expected halftime measurements is a range, even with a fixed starting pressure. A wet ball would be expected to be cooler than a dry one, and damp would range somewhere in between.I wouldn't expect game used balls, of varying moisture levels and handling g, to all be identical temps. I'd be suspicious of fudging the data if they were.

The Pats balls all fell to below the expected pressure...that's the problem here.

Understood, but (and I believe they were deflated) you run into a nasty game of 'just how wet were the pats balls' and 'do we really know they were initially measured at 12.5 or could it be 12.4'? These are rally minute differences at the end of the day. If the temp outside was a couple degrees colder, if the wind chill affected them, if they were wetter than expected. My point is, Well and the NFL knew that was a losing game, theres reasonable doubt all over the place because conditions were not well measured and small difference have big effects on such a small swing.

So thats why the relationship to the Colts balls was used as the smoking gun and not the raw temperatures.

I, and I suspect most, would agree that were this a question of reasonable doubt that the standard may not have been met. for me this quanta of evidence would not support that standard. In fact, if you had the wherewithal to go back to the early, pre-Wells Report part of this thread you will notice that myself, and many others were among the first to raise all of the various issues relating to physics.

Here's the thing though. Imperfect though the process was, the process did produce evidence. While no single piece of that evidence amounts to a smoking gun, slam dunk conclusion, it is more than sufficient to conclude, taken as a reinforcing totality, to at least a preponderance of the evidence that Brady is culpable. For me I would be comfortable with the more certain conclusion of saying he knowingly participated in awarding those who were wrongfully deflating the balls to at least a certainty level of clear and convincing evidence.

Beyond a reasonable doubt, no, I don't see how anyone gets there. If folks want to take refuge or solace in that certainty gap that is a matter for their conscience. In my mind it is not really relevant to the current disciplinary issue.

Still, much respect, you seem an imminently reasonable fellow.

Cheers! I agree with everything you said. My only interest here is in how Wells and the NFL have conducted this thing. The NFL screwed up the initial investigation so badly, and once Brady was implicated they needed every shred of proof they could muster. A lot of the shreds were suspect. Its just interesting to see how theyve spun this, it isnt a shining example of fair play by either party.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Why did the report use his remembered numbers but not his remembered gauge?

Because, to the Report writer, that seemed a logical inference. He set out his reasoning in the matter I believe.

If you are asking for my opinion, rather than the Report writers statements, I would have explored this matter more explicitly, and I would have been very forthcoming about this matter. I believe in always acknowledging weaknesses in one's arguments or inferences. Better to get those matters out up front than to let others who wish to counter your arguments be the first to raise them, or at least that is my experience.

 

[bostonfred]

I think what really was happening is that the Patriots were in fact inflating footballs to the bare minimum to pass inspection, and that they knew the balls would continue to get softer by game time. I think they did this to gain an advantage, but I don't think they considered it cheating.

that's really nonsensical, though --- it's an unnecessary layer of conspiracy theorist spin reverse engineered from a conclusion.

by that same logic, andrew luck sets his balls at 13 because he knows they'll drop down a pound to an illegal 12 range.

these guys have all thrown thousands of balls in all different environments throughout their lives, so they may very well have some implicit, if not explicit, understanding of temperature on the ball's pressure or feel, but to paint the picture that he calculates out the pressures, picks out a couple dozen balls that they've been working for however long, and submits a 12.5 expecting an 11.5 is really very nutty.

these balls have all been measured at varying psi, including the single ball the colts intercepted that has 3 different readings, but I'm supposed to believe that 11.5 is the magic number that he targets and he submits balls at varying pressures according to the temp for the game, instead of just trying to slide 11.5s through like rodgers would, knowing te refs are very lax in checking that stuff.

people really need to think these things through and see how crazy paranoid they sound.

i tend to think bill was telling the truth - they give the balls to the refs and say set them to 12.5. I also think that they knew that the balls would deflate some after that in the cold. I think they gained an advantage from that. I don't think it was an illegal advantage, or at least, I think they believed it was legal. It explains all the allegations and responses by all parties - the league legitimately thinking they're guilty, the pats going scorched earth, science showing that it was pretty darn close but just a little sketchy, all of it makes more sense if they were right on the line but not quite over it.

OK, again, by claiming they got an advantage you're claiming weather only affects their balls.It is very nutty

Not at all. I'm saying that its generally better to use softer balls in the cold. I'm sure lots of teams prefer that. I also wouldn't be surprised if the pats took further advantage by submitting indoor air balls on cold days, so they got more of an advantage. I wouldn't consider that cheating if they handed them to the refs and said, here, pump them up to 12.5 please. and it seems to explain a lot.

 

[davearm]

Here's my take on the whole thing, lemme know what you guys think.

The Pats were deflating their balls post inspection. The NFL, per the Colt and Ravens complaints, intended to run a spot check, particularly if they got ahold of one of the Pats balls on the sideline to provide a 'probable cause' for the half-time check (hence NFL Executive VP Troy Vincent just 'by chance' walking the Colts sideline).

Referee Walter Anderson was given a minor heads up to watch the balls. He demonstrably didnt take this very seriously, as he lost track of the balls before kickoff and had a minor freakout. That being the case, its entirely likely Anderson either didnt pay careful attention to the pressure of the balls (he later improbably claimed all of them were delivered within .1psi of perfect, which is hard to fathom), or he didnt measure them at all (we discussed to death in this thread how uncomfortable the refs seemed with the gauges in the Bears video.

The NFL also had no idea that footballs lost pressure in cold or wet conditions. So when the tested the Patriots ball (three times!) allegedly on a complaint from a Colts player, once it showed under 12.5psi they figure, smoking gun. Therefore, as far as the NFL was concerned, if they get balls reading under 12.5psi at halftime, game set match. From that point of view, everything else makes a lot more sense.

Halftime comes and they bring all the balls in. Two different refs are assigned to measure, with 2 different gauges. The gauges (hilariously) dont match each other by about .3psi. The refs measure and all the Pats balls are under to some degree. As far as the sting goes, thats all they need to know. Again, they have no idea about the ideal gas law issues.

So either they fill up the Pats balls at that point, or they proceed to testing Colts balls. Either way, the gauges were switched between refs somehow.

The game finishes in a second half blowout. The report leaks with massively incorrect details, which doesnt really bother the NFL because from their point of view they have the Pats dead to rights, their balls were under inflated- they dont need any more evidence or a mechanism for who did it. In fact they might not want to know how it happened. Slap a fine on the Patriots organization after the season when all this is forgotten and move on, no need to bring the leagues most popular player into this. Simple story line- balls were underinflated at half time, Pats are guilty.

Then some wiseacre on the internet brings up the Ideal Gas Law, and the league suddenly has a much bigger problem. They havent done anything like the investigation needed to definitively prove anything from the measurements difference between pre-game and halftime. In fact they didnt even record the pregame pressures! This went from cut and dried to making the league look like the chumps.

First priority- kick the can past the season. Second priority- protect the leagues reputation. Its a GODSEND that they had the video tape of the ball boy, which introduces some new circumstancial evidence, but theyre going to need more and the pressure data is a joke. Enter Mr. Wells. Another godsend- Larry and Curly cant stop yapping on their phones. Now theyve got a pretty good circumstancial case, but it creates a new problem- Moe, AKA Tom Brady. This has now turned from a simple sweep and clear into a total cluster####. The more definitive the details, the bigger this story must get, so the simple slap on the wrist of the Pats is no longer viable. Now you have to go after the leagues golden boy, and you need as much proof or quasi-proof as you can pile up.

So the Wells report is a billion pages long with all kinds of scientific tests, but it glosses over some serious issues with the actual measurements. In fact it sugar coats the whole process, and roundly ignores the elephant in the room- that they had no reliable pre-game data to compare anything to. They also obfuscate a few details about the half time test to hide the fact that, unbeknown to the refs, the time differential between when each teams balls were tested would be a critical part of the testing, and that data was never recorded. And since you have no sound pre-game data, the only actual physical proof you can present is that the Colts balls lost less pressure than the Patriots balls. Wells papered that little detail over.

Finally- report comes out and the NFL, in typical cynical form, waits to see what the reaction will be before announcing the penalties.

The end?

Pick it apart boys, im curious to see what holes there are.

In no particular order:

* My recollection is that Vincent didn't come down from the booth until after the Colts spoke to a game official about the intercepted ball.

* There's nothing to suggest any followup testing or spot-checking was planned by the NFL. None of this sees the light of day without the Colts intercepting, and spot checking, that football in the first half.

* Anderson reported a wider range of inflations than you're describing. Pats had 2 balls under 12.5, most at 12.5 and one or two at 12.6. Colts had balls from 12.8-13.1.

* I've got no issues accepting Anderson at his word on the pregame pressures he observed (but had no reason to record).

* I would expect both the refs and the league to be generally aware that psi falls/rises with temps, but in no way would I expect them to know the magnitudes of those changes on this day, or any day.

* Kraft definitely brought the heat upon himself with his defiance and bravado in the days and weeks after the game.

* And of course Brady did the same with his evasiveness.

What gets me is that if you're Goodell, you're preferences look something like this:

Best case: report finds nothing happened, nothing to see here.

Next best: report finds something happened, but Pats are cooperative and contrite, and he can treat them lightly.

Worst case: report finds something happened, Pats declare war, and nuke Goodell's option to treat them lightly.

The notion that Goodell wanted to be in the place we are today just defies all logic and common sense.

 

[davearm]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

interesting. in the medical field we have a saying: "If it's not written down, it didn't happen."

If you see me choking, or having a heart attack, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't take the time to write it down before rendering aid.

TIA.

 

[davearm]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Being admitted into evidence and being torn apart on cross are two very different things. It is absolutely unreasonable to hold the pre-game memories of 1 guy to the same level of respect as 2 refs reading results on 2 different instruments, recorded by a 3rd party and witnessed by NFL executives. People will have their own judgment on how strongly to weigh either technique, but by no means are they equivalent or even close.

Wait, am I entitled to my own judgement, or do I have to accept your judgement that "by no means are they equivalent or even close"?

 

[Native]

The term 'Deflating' is here to dethrone 'Taking my talents to South Beach' as the new gold-standard of nebulous sports quotes that can be used in any situation - from politics to weight loss to flatulence to sexual innuendo:

"Can you please stop deflating in front of me?"

"Hillary is deflating on the eve of the election"

"I'm deflating with my girl this weekend".

"Thanks now my big balls are deflated"

 

[mbuehner]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

Being admitted into evidence and being torn apart on cross are two very different things. It is absolutely unreasonable to hold the pre-game memories of 1 guy to the same level of respect as 2 refs reading results on 2 different instruments, recorded by a 3rd party and witnessed by NFL executives. People will have their own judgment on how strongly to weigh either technique, but by no means are they equivalent or even close.

Wait, am I entitled to my own judgement, or do I have to accept your judgement that "by no means are they equivalent or even close"?

You can use your own judgement as to how far apart those two things are. But to say they are equivalent is unserious.

 

[Bucky86]

And the Patriots were caught using practice balls DURING a game in 2004? Yeah, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

[David Dodds]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

Here I present the "Wells Report in Context" visually...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=968825293162610&set=a.152110514834096.27809.100001054446396&type=1&theater

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Why not go with something like this: Our players and staff, including equipment managers, are aware of the unfounded accusations sometimes hurled against our organization, and many of them have developed a gallows humor surrounding them. Mr. McNally adopted the moniker "The Deflator" as an ironic jab at these baseless conspiracy theories, and his colleagues understood them that way as well.

People might not have believed that one either, but at least it's not overtly insulting to our intelligence like the weight loss thing.

Bob Kraft, if you're reading this, I really don't like your club, but if you pay me a seven figure salary I promise I'll come up with better lies than the monkeys who are running your PR wing. PM me.

 

[Run It Up]

Love it. I'm gone all day. Come back and the pool is even more of a mad house.

Nothing has changed. The Wells report is still built on assumptions and cherry picked information to fit a narrative. Using the same information you can come to a separate conclusion that is just as much if not more likely if you simply make different assumptions.

It's almost like it wasn't an independent investigation at all.

 

[Bucky86]

Why not go with something like this: Our players and staff, including equipment managers, are aware of the unfounded accusations sometimes hurled against our organization, and many of them have developed a gallows humor surrounding them. Mr. McNally adopted the moniker "The Deflator" as an ironic jab at these baseless conspiracy theories, and his colleagues understood them that way as well.

People might not have believed that one either, but at least it's not overtly insulting to our intelligence like the weight loss thing.

Bob Kraft, if you're reading this, I really don't like your club, but if you pay me a seven figure salary I promise I'll come up with better lies than the monkeys who are running your PR wing. PM me.

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• Bucky86*, Baloney Sandwich, massraider, Run It Up, IrishTwinkie, Old Smiley, Native, David Dodds, wildbill, LBH, Warsteinner, amnesiac, Ghost Rider, Chicago Hooligan, pghrob, JohnnyU, Pots, mbuehner, frigid5, Facebook (1), themeanmachine, TLEF316

 

[pghrob]

wait, they didn't record the pregame inflation numbers?

i personally would've stopped the investigation right there.

then they didn't record all the Colts' balls?

this whole thing is stupid.

Do you understand, that from an evidentiary standpoint, the recorded numbers would likely only be admitted into evidence after establishing the foundation of Ref Anderson's memory of the event anyhow. The real evidentiary value is in the memory. (Now there are some exceptions for records maintained in the ordinary course of business, but those presumptions are challengeable, so the basic foregoing statement is accurate for purposes of this discussion.)

interesting. in the medical field we have a saying: "If it's not written down, it didn't happen."

And in the NFL, they have a commissioner who burns recorded evidence.

 

[massraider]

Nothing has changed? Anyone wanna tell him about the awesome new website?

The whole thing was getting boring, the thread was losing steam, it just want fun anymore. Things looked grim.

Then the team created a Web page, I can only assume editors from the Harvard Lampoon helped them.

This thread, now with more awesome.

You know what, it's not because it's the Pats. Any obnoxious celebrity that thinks they are above the law,if they get their comeuppance, it's enjoyed by all.

This could have been Justin Beiber or a Kardashian.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Nothing has changed? Anyone wanna tell him about the awesome new website?

The whole thing was getting boring, the thread was losing steam, it just want fun anymore. Things looked grim.

Then the team created a Web page, I can only assume editors from the Harvard Lampoon helped them.

This thread, now with more awesome.

You know what, it's not because it's the Pats. Any obnoxious celebrity that thinks they are above the law,if they get their comeuppance, it's enjoyed by all.

This could have been Justin Beiber or a Kardashian.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

I'm almost halfway through this rebuttal and it's pretty convincing.

http://wellsreportcontext.com/

 

[General Tso]

Yeah, me too.

The handling of the Ray Rice matter won't be the nail in the coffin. It'll be the excessive punishment for the cheater.

That he wasn't involved in. At all.

He's going down, man!

I think it would more likely be that Kraft doesn't support the commissioner anymore and the rest of the owners fall in line.

That would go a long way toward disabusing people of the notion that Kraft expects special treatment for his team.

Ivan, you have been relentlessly basing for Patriots for this. Just curious, what are your thoughts on other competitive advantage incidents over the years that have received no punishment at all? In particular the Pathers and Vikings heating up balls on the sidelines, or the Seahawks' rampant PED usage? Or the envelope pushing that has been acknowledged in ball prep by Aarn Rodgers (wink wink) and Eli Manning? I mean - seriously - the only thing funnier than the stupidity of this whole affair is the faux outrage from people who are claiming to stand for fairness.