Patriots being investigated after Colts game (4 Viewers)

[Dr. Octopus]

In order to believe it you have to make Brady out to be stupid, which where is the corroborating evidence for that?

http://cdn.na16.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tom-brady-embarrassing-1.jpg

 

[Franknbeans]

I think the tonic for all non-believing Pats fans is this...

Imagine, as hard as it may be, that Peyton Manning's team was the one in question, after winning their 4th superbowl. They were the ones who did the Spygate and got caught. Manning was the one who influenced his ball handlers to get the balls to his liking and unfortunately, a preponderance of evidence was established that showed the balls were not inflated to the proper level.

I wonder how many of you would be taking it easy on the other "golden boy".

 

[Jercules]

Apparently Goodell was Kraft's boy once upon a time. Some theorize these insane punishments the Pats keep getting for minor infractions are a case of Goodell trying to prove he isn't Kraft's stooge (think Theon Greyjoy when he raided Winterfell).

One of the funniest anti-Pats positions essentially says Kraft is getting what he deserves because he pushed so hard to make Goodell Commish in the first place.

But as for the quoted, I doubt Run It Up would argue the NFLPA has the official authority to get rid of Goodell. What it has is the ability to make enough of a stink to cast any future argument for keeping him in a very dubious light.

A bit of a Catch-22 for Goodell apparently:

Treat the Patriots fairly, and you: A) Undermine yourself by ignoring your obnoxious precedent with spygate; B) Upset frothing fans around the country; and C) Lend credulity to the idea you're Kraft's boy.

Treat the Pats unfairly (what he chose to do) and you: A) Irreparably piss off one of your key allies among the owners; and B) Give the NFLPA the wedge issue it needs to run wild.

Well the obvious bias in this post is that you think Goodell treated the Pats unfairly.They cheated (repeatedly), and got punished. I think the punishment was harsh, but I'm not privy to all the details of past NE issues. Some theorize that after one of their earlier issues, the Pats were told, "knock it off, or we're really going to hammer you." If that is true, then this punishment isn't unfair; rather it is an authority figure following through on an earlier disciplinary agreement.

That being said, despite what you (and other Pats fans want to think), Goodell's job is safe. When he screwed over the Redskins and Cowboys after the uncapped year, he kept his job. When he botched the bountygate situation, he kept his job. When he screwed up the Ray Rice situation, he kept his job. Now that he MAY HAVE came down harder than necessary on the Patriots (a decision that most other NFL teams are probably in support of), he will keep his job. The NFLPA can be unhappy, but they don't have the power to change it. You really think this "wedge issue" of Brady getting suspended for 4 games is going to make a difference? Get real. The CBA doesn't expire for 5 years. The NFLPA isn't going to strike over this. I know that Pats fans think their team is so important that all the other players will say "let's strike b/c they aren't treating Tommy nice," but that's a dream. The NFLPA didn't force a strike when Goodell suspended the NO players after bountygate, they didn't force a strike when Ray Rice was double suspended for 1 offense, they didn't force a strike when Peterson was essentially given a 1 year suspension (albeit with pay), they aren't going to force a strike because Tommy-boy got caught cheating, when most of the other players have suspected the Pats of cheating for years.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you're not a fan of Tom Brady. If "Tommy-boy" ran over your dog or something, on behalf of Patriots Nation I apologize.

The bolded is just hilarious, so I bolded it.

Also, I fail to see why you're making Goodell's job security another front in the Pats fans vs. haters war here. You've done a fairly good job of listing an awful lot of straws that are making the camel very uncomfortable. A perfectly neutral observer can see what a sh*tshow Goodell has presided over, and conclude his days are numbered. Makes little difference to me... unless of course the next guy won't crucify my team over BS.

And again, cheated, cheated, cheated... they had a guy on their sidelines with a camera seven years ago!!! In what universe is that a big deal? Just this vague nonsense from you people, because if you dealt in specifics the absurdity of your arguments would be self-evident. Their 'cheating', then and now, amounts to little more than shenanigans, and should be punished as such (in the case of January, again, a five figure fine for something with a minimum of $25,000).

Have you ever played football, or coached it? Do you have any idea how normal things like this are, even at minor levels? (Furthermore, can you grasp the simple concept that in my asking that, I'm not pretending that cheating is okay and deserves no punishment whatsoever?)

yourteamcheats.com... and that's just the stuff they catch!

So the theory that this punishment is not an isolated incident, but part of an ongoing discipline situation is "hilarious," but your theory that Goodell is "picking on" the Pats to prove he isn't Kraft's stooge is valid? Right, because after "picking on" the Pats with Spygate, Kraft would continue to support Goodell, helping him to get huge raises, and keep his job after his disastrous handling of the Ray Rice situation. Yeah, that theory is air-tight, if you are a desperate Pats fan grasping at straws.As far as being a fan of Brady, read any of my posts in any threads discussing him. I've consistently said he's the greatest QB of this generation, and (at worst) the 2nd best QB of all time. Hell, read the posts I've made in this thread where I've said he is still one of the greatest QBs ever, still a first-ballot HOFer, this won't diminish his legacy at all, etc.

And yes, CHEATED, CHEATED, CHEATED. You can try to downplay it all you want, but they cheated. When it's convenient for you, you only focus on absolute facts (punished for videotaping from the wrong position, $25,0000 fine at minimum-but we'll ignore this b/c it doesn't fit our position, etc); then when it's convenient to use theories, you embrace that (sting by the Colts, Ravens, Kensil, the man on the grassy knoll, and Colonel Mustard in the library to get the Pats). They were caught cheating, publicly, twice, now. Who knows how many other non-public instances, or times they didn't get caught, there were. Irregardless, they cheated before, and they didn't stop.

I'm not making Goodell's job security a part of any "war" here. Someone (not sure if it was you or not) said something like "the NFLPA is going to cost Goodell his job." That's laughable, and only fits with the warped view Pats fans have of the importance of their team. Goodell handled bountygate, Peterson, & Rice far worse than he handled this situation, and he didn't lose his job; the idea that he will lose his job over this is ludicrous, and is only being bandied about Pats fan-boys b/c they have no logical points to make anymore.

This is a very bizarre post.

I mean, I don't expect anyone to follow me too closely, but I've written the word "minimum" (in normal size font) more times than I can count. Pretending I'm hiding that fact is not even grasping at straws, it's just inventing stuff. I mean, chastise me for defending Hitler while you're at it.

And, just to to simplify things a bit... the likelihood or unlikelihood of Goodell losing his job is not something I, as a Pats fan, put much pride in. You think he'll survive? Good for you champ.

And then, of course, you take up the 'cheater, cheater, cheater' challenge... and repeat the very vague nonsense I was kinda hoping not to see for the 567th time.

Sorry my focus on absolute facts is such a bummer for you. I also wish my sole vacation of the facts, with suggesting it was all a Colts Sting!, had actually happened, simply because it would've brought you almost as much comfort as seeing "Tommy-boy" hanged (but you actually like 'Tommy-boy', do you? Make it a little clearer please, and call him by his proper name: Tom F*ckin' Brady [super Bowl MVP, and 4-time Super Bowl winner]).

Wow, this is the text book definition of a raving lunatic.

Lol, looking for rational discussion huh?

 

[Stealthycat]

Which makes it even more unbelievably stupid that Brady would have resorted to messing with the balls in the first place.

knowing the Colt's had 75% of their balls under inflated, makes you wonder if Brady did at all then doesn't it ?

 

[Run It Up]

but you actually like 'Tommy-boy', do you? Make it a little clearer please, and call him by his proper name: Tom F*ckin' Brady [super Bowl MVP, and 4-time Super Bowl winner]).

Actually it's Thomas "Tom" Edward Patrick Brady, Jr.

Four first names and that smile.

 

[Run It Up]

I think the tonic for all non-believing Pats fans is this...

Imagine, as hard as it may be, that Peyton Manning's team was the one in question, after winning their 4th superbowl. They were the ones who did the Spygate and got caught. Manning was the one who influenced his ball handlers to get the balls to his liking and unfortunately, a preponderance of evidence was established that showed the balls were not inflated to the proper level.

I wonder how many of you would be taking it easy on the other "golden boy".

Old chicken parm never hurt nobody. Except for that doctor he sexually harassed.

 

[moleculo]

Which makes it even more unbelievably stupid that Brady would have resorted to messing with the balls in the first place.

knowing the Colt's had 75% of their balls under inflated, makes you wonder if Brady did at all then doesn't it ?

Nope. However, I possess the dual abilities of reason and logic. YMMV

 

[Stealthycat]

rules say balls have to be 12.5 to 13.5

balls are NOT in that range means rules are broken means cheating

Pats balls were under inflated = cheating

Colts balls were under inflated too = not cheating

there is your reason and logic ... lets not even talk about how two gauges were used and how Colts balls were not all tested. Maybe all but 1 Colts ball was low? Maybe some of them were 10.0 ? We'll never know because they were head hunting Patriots.

Logic and reason

 

[Devine Intervention]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

 

[moleculo]

rules say balls have to be 12.5 to 13.5

balls are NOT in that range means rules are broken means cheating

Pats balls were under inflated = cheating

Colts balls were under inflated too = not cheating

there is your reason and logic ... lets not even talk about how two gauges were used and how Colts balls were not all tested. Maybe all but 1 Colts ball was low? Maybe some of them were 10.0 ? We'll never know because they were head hunting Patriots.

Logic and reason

Go with that. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Run It Up]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

Yes, atmospheric conditions would have accounted for roughly a 1.0 PSI drop. The average PSI of the Pats balls was 11.49.

 

[The General]

Serious question - what percentage of Pats fans think that Brady / equipment minions are 100% totally innocent, did nothing to the balls, and the NFL is out to bust them?

Can't be very high, right? Maybe 5%?

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Serious question - what percentage of Pats fans think that Brady / equipment minions are 100% totally innocent, did nothing to the balls, and the NFL is out to bust them?

Can't be very high, right? Maybe 5%?

My sense is it is probably a lot higher than 5% but it probably comes down to what constitutes a fan. I bet only 5% of Pats fan have read the Wells Report. You have a lot of older fans, younger fans and most female fans that aren't all that informed about the facts and choose to believe Brady didn't do anything wrong because

that is what they want to believe.

A large percentage of my friends are big Pats fans, only a very small amount of them think nothing shady happened.

 

[davearm]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

Yes, atmospheric conditions would have accounted for roughly a 1.0 PSI drop. The average PSI of the Pats balls was 11.49.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you probably shouldn't make such blatantly misleading statements. By now you must know that 11.49 figure came from the gauge that reads high.

Regardless, the Pats' balls measured a larger loss in pressure than the Colts' balls did. That's a fact.

 

[The General]

Serious question - what percentage of Pats fans think that Brady / equipment minions are 100% totally innocent, did nothing to the balls, and the NFL is out to bust them?

Can't be very high, right? Maybe 5%?

My sense is it is probably a lot higher than 5% but it probably comes down to what constitutes a fan. I bet only 5% of Pats fan have read the Wells Report. You have a lot of older fans, younger fans and most female fans that aren't all that informed about the facts and choose to believe Brady didn't do anything wrong because

that is what they want to believe.

A large percentage of my friends are big Pats fans, only a very small amount of them think nothing shady happened.

This sounds about right to me.This thread is a tiny sample and you can never tell who is just an alias or trolling but at this point it seems like there are very few who actually pay attention believe nothing happened.

 

[Stealthycat]

Serious question - what percentage of Pats fans think that Brady / equipment minions are 100% totally innocent, did nothing to the balls, and the NFL is out to bust them?

I think all cheat a little - I think Aaron Rodgers has his boys over inflate (he's on record saying as much )

We know the NFL chastised the Packers/Bears game wasn't it? for warming balls on the sideline ?

We know teams pipe in sound, bounty for knocking players out, breach rules in FA negotiations etc

We know Colts and Pats had under inflated balls.

Its absurd to point "cheating" at one team for having them after months of investigations that led to "more likely than not" and NO investigation as to why the Colts were breaking the same rules

logic and reason leads you to say the balls got to where they were by the SAME way ... be it atmospheric conditions or a needle

 

[Run It Up]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

Yes, atmospheric conditions would have accounted for roughly a 1.0 PSI drop. The average PSI of the Pats balls was 11.49.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you probably shouldn't make such blatantly misleading statements. By now you must know that 11.49 figure came from the gauge that reads high.

Regardless, the Pats' balls measured a larger loss in pressure than the Colts' balls did. That's a fact.

The gauge Anderson used? I know which gauge I was referring to. I also know the Pats used neither the logo or non-logo gauge before submitting their balls.

I also know that Exponent instead of getting multiple kinds of gauges to do their experiments they got dozens of the non-logo model. Not a single logo model, or any other kind. Their excuse being they couldn't find one like the logo model...

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Serious question - what percentage of Pats fans think that Brady / equipment minions are 100% totally innocent, did nothing to the balls, and the NFL is out to bust them?

I think all cheat a little - I think Aaron Rodgers has his boys over inflate (he's on record saying as much )

We know the NFL chastised the Packers/Bears game wasn't it? for warming balls on the sideline ?

We know teams pipe in sound, bounty for knocking players out, breach rules in FA negotiations etc

We know Colts and Pats had under inflated balls.

Its absurd to point "cheating" at one team for having them after months of investigations that led to "more likely than not" and NO investigation as to why the Colts were breaking the same rules

logic and reason leads you to say the balls got to where they were by the SAME way ... be it atmospheric conditions or a needle

What you think you know is wrong. You may start with your supposition about a Packers/Bears game and work from there.

 

[Mookie]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

 

[davearm]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

Yes, atmospheric conditions would have accounted for roughly a 1.0 PSI drop. The average PSI of the Pats balls was 11.49.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you probably shouldn't make such blatantly misleading statements. By now you must know that 11.49 figure came from the gauge that reads high.

Regardless, the Pats' balls measured a larger loss in pressure than the Colts' balls did. That's a fact.

The gauge Anderson used? I know which gauge I was referring to. I also know the Pats used neither the logo or non-logo gauge before submitting their balls.

I also know that Exponent instead of getting multiple kinds of gauges to do their experiments they got dozens of the non-logo model. Not a single logo model, or any other kind. Their excuse being they couldn't find one like the logo model...

You're doing it again. The gauge(s) used by the Pats and Exponent are immaterial. Neither have any bearing on the loss of pressure observed in the Pats' and Colts' footballs the day of the AFCCG. Quit trying to obfuscate.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

I think all cheat a little - I think Aaron Rodgers has his boys over inflate (he's on record saying as much )

Rodgers destroyed the Patriots, so it's clear he cheated even more.

 

[Anarchy99]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I will be the first to admit the Pats bend and break all sorts of rules. However, the other teams you mentioned (Browns, Falcons, Jets) did not have a $10 million investigation thrown at them, so saying those teams fully cooperated in much different circumstances doesn't mean a whole lot (IMO).

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG. Maybe I have my facts wrong, but it sounds like the league hired Wells to launch his investigation very quickly into the process. I am pretty sure the Patriots cooperated as much as the other teams you listed did at the start of the process. We will never know, but if the NFL went after the phones and communications from Revis, his agents, the Jets owner and key front office people, etc. things would have ended much differently. But that's not the direction the league opted to go.

Again, before people throw me into the crazed NE homer pile, the league had the ability to make Deflategate go away quickly and painlessly and opted to go in a different direction. They could have reported that the footballs in the AFCCG were underinflated, they checked with the team and then the league could have announced they were submitted pregame underinflated, simply fined the team or docked them a late round pick, and the whole thing would have disappeared much like the other infractions from recent years.

Some will argue that the NFL had an obligation to look into this further and uncover what was going on, but in the end I thing the league as a whole took a hit from the Wells report, the penalties, the press conferences, the "in context" stuff, and what will likely be a dragged out appeal by Brady.

My point in a lot of this is as follows: if the league spent $10 million and 4 months to investigate ANY franchise, they likely would find something to report on that "probably" broke the rules. Yet New England is the only team that has had to get a head to toe assessment. Maybe their past transgressions and holier than thou attitude justified their having to go through essential a 4-month audit, but that is another debate.

Moving forward, I think NE fans will have a legit gripe if other teams continue to skate or get a slap on the wrist for rules violations when the Pats got hit pretty hard. Guess we will have to see what happens the next time another team does something questionable . . .

 

[JIslander]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

 

[Anarchy99]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

 

[moleculo]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.

There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

 

[JIslander]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I think that folks like you and me aren't going to budge positions much on this pending more info, but I will say in regards to your one comment about it being unfair that it had to escalate to SB (I think that's what you are inferring) ... why wouldn't it? You have to think about how other fans and teams feel who didn't get that chance to move on --I'm a Ravens fan and whereas I know they lost to Pats because of a patchwork secondary...that was a close game and it pisses me off knowing this was likely going on in that game and may have been the difference.

 

[Anarchy99]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.

There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)

But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

 

[moleculo]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.

There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)

But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home.

I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

 

[Anarchy99]

As a side note, I heard a conversation on the radio today with a former MLB pitcher and now ESPN commentator (Dallas something or other) who indicated in MLB pitchers alter the baseballs in every game every night. All after the umps have gotten the balls. It could be ball boys rubbing compounds, the pitchers scuffing the balls, using foreign substances or pine tar, etc. He said all of it is strictly forbidden by rule, and now the league has had to look at it more seriously (a couple of pitchers got suspended last week). But he insisted that it is so rampant that some umpires will actually ask pitchers what they plan on doing to the ball and will be told what they can or can't do.

None of that has to do anything with football of course, but it is common practice to ignore the rules in baseball. I still think plenty of teams do things that are against the NFL rules in football preparation, and I seriously doubt that the Patriots were the first team to alter a football post-inspection. Like with baseball, I think the league's policy of having a lax pre-game football inspection process also should have been taken into account when it came down to assessing a penalty against NE.

As I outlined probably 30 pages ago in this thread, if the league had footballs on clampdown and had a rigid testing and ball security protocol, it could eliminate shenanigans with the inflation of the footballs. It doesn't excuse the Patriots from taking creative liberties to do whatever they want and ignore the rules. But I do think 1% of the league that didn't play QB had any clue that the accepted PSI range was 12.5 - 13.5 PSI until after the Colts/Pats game.

 

[Jercules]

Were the colts and patriots balls both under inflated at the same amount?

The amount the colts balls lost could scientifically be explained by the weather. Could the drop in the patriots balls be the same?

Yes, atmospheric conditions would have accounted for roughly a 1.0 PSI drop. The average PSI of the Pats balls was 11.49.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you probably shouldn't make such blatantly misleading statements. By now you must know that 11.49 figure came from the gauge that reads high.

Regardless, the Pats' balls measured a larger loss in pressure than the Colts' balls did. That's a fact.

The gauge Anderson used? I know which gauge I was referring to. I also know the Pats used neither the logo or non-logo gauge before submitting their balls.

I also know that Exponent instead of getting multiple kinds of gauges to do their experiments they got dozens of the non-logo model. Not a single logo model, or any other kind. Their excuse being they couldn't find one like the logo model...

You're doing it again. The gauge(s) used by the Pats and Exponent are immaterial. Neither have any bearing on the loss of pressure observed in the Pats' and Colts' footballs the day of the AFCCG. Quit trying to obfuscate.

Loss of pressure from what? All of this is based on hazy assumptions about the initial pressures of the footballs, because even leading into an AFCCG for which they were alerted to suspicions of ball tampering, nobody testing the footballs could be bothered to make any records.

The Wells report trusts Anderson's recollection that the Pats' balls were roughly 12.5 psi, and the Colts' around 13, but when he says he used the 'high' gauge they suddenly find his recollection unreliable, and claim he used the 'low' one.

You're entirely right that assuming those starting pressures, the Pats' balls on average dropped much more than the Colts' did which certainly suggests tampering (regardless of the gauge used). Still though, we're talking about fractions of a psi here or there, with two sets of footballs that might have had relevantly different treatments in the first half. If the Patriots had more time of possession (so more balls getting used more often), or even just stored their balls in a comparatively colder/damper sideline area, the numbers could be explained.

 

[Jercules]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.

There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)

But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home.

I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

This looks suspiciously like a view you've expressed previously that was based on a perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report.

The officials' haphazard pregame protocols with the balls basically invited tampering, in a league that is already doing whatever it can to let the QBs have the balls as they want them. The minimum penalty for tampering with game balls is a measly $25,000.

You can believe it's a serious infraction, but all the evidence shows that prior to January 18, 2015, the NFL didn't agree with you.

 

[davearm]

Walt Anderson's task was to ensure the footballs were inflated to proper specs. He did that. There's neither a requirement, nor an expectation that he record the actual measurements in writing.

It's entirely plausible, and even the most likely event, that Anderson has a very clear recollection of the PSI's (as you mentioned, those PSI's were a point of emphasis), but little recollection of the actual gauge used to observe those PSIs.

Have you seen the two gauges? They look almost identical from the front. They're distinguishable from the back, where the logo is (or is not). The back would be facing Anderson's palm as he uses the gauge.

 

[davearm]

I will say this: if Anderson was aware that his two gauges were reading so differently, then I suspect he would have paid closer attention to which gauge he used.

But since he had no reason to believe it mattered which gauge he used, he probably didn't pay attention to it.

 

[moleculo]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home. I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

This looks suspiciously like a view you've expressed previously that was based on a perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report.

The officials' haphazard pregame protocols with the balls basically invited tampering, in a league that is already doing whatever it can to let the QBs have the balls as they want them. The minimum penalty for tampering with game balls is a measly $25,000.

You can believe it's a serious infraction, but all the evidence shows that prior to January 18, 2015, the NFL didn't agree with you.

What assumption in the Wells report is perfectly wrong? Are you still on about which gauge was used pre-game?

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

Also, I really wish you guys would stop blaming the NFL for this. It's very much like my kids whining that they wouldn't have gotten in trouble for sneaking candy if we hadn't left it out...guess what - you knew you weren't supposed to have any after dinner, and you did anyways.

The difference here is my kids are 6 and 8. the Patriots are grown ### men and should know better.

 

[davearm]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.

There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)

But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home.

I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

This looks suspiciously like a view you've expressed previously that was based on a perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report.

The officials' haphazard pregame protocols with the balls basically invited tampering, in a league that is already doing whatever it can to let the QBs have the balls as they want them. The minimum penalty for tampering with game balls is a measly $25,000.

You can believe it's a serious infraction, but all the evidence shows that prior to January 18, 2015, the NFL didn't agree with you.

What evidence do we have -- of any kind -- regarding the NFL's handling of situations in which footballs were tampered with post-inspection? None I'm aware of.

 

[moleculo]

I have two sets of wrenches in my tool box - one Craftsman, and one is cheap Chinese steel. Yesterday I was installing a light fixture. I know the nut was 9/16". I would place my hand on the Bible and swear that the nut was 9/16". I would tell you that I probably used the Craftsman wrench, but if you had evidence that I actually used the Chinese wrench, I wouldn't argue.

 

[Jercules]

Walt Anderson's task was to ensure the footballs were inflated to proper specs. He did that. There's neither a requirement, nor an expectation that he record the actual measurements in writing.

It's entirely plausible, and even the most likely event, that Anderson has a very clear recollection of the PSI's (as you mentioned, those PSI's were a point of emphasis), but little recollection of the actual gauge used to observe those PSIs.

Have you seen the two gauges? They look almost identical from the front. They're distinguishable from the back, where the logo is (or is not). The back would be facing Anderson's palm as he uses the gauge.

I know there's no requirement, it adds to my point: none of this was taken seriously at the time.

And since all of this hinges on fractions of psis up or down, I'd argue it's inappropriate to base significant conclusions on Anderson's vague recollection of 25+ different psis (especially when you've, at least presumably, found reason to doubt his recollection in other respects).

 

[Jercules]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home. I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

This looks suspiciously like a view you've expressed previously that was based on a perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report.

The officials' haphazard pregame protocols with the balls basically invited tampering, in a league that is already doing whatever it can to let the QBs have the balls as they want them. The minimum penalty for tampering with game balls is a measly $25,000.

You can believe it's a serious infraction, but all the evidence shows that prior to January 18, 2015, the NFL didn't agree with you.

What assumption in the Wells report is perfectly wrong? Are you still on about which gauge was used pre-game?

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

Also, I really wish you guys would stop blaming the NFL for this. It's very much like my kids whining that they wouldn't have gotten in trouble for sneaking candy if we hadn't left it out...guess what - you knew you weren't supposed to have any after dinner, and you did anyways.

The difference here is my kids are 6 and 8. the Patriots are grown ### men and should know better.

Your perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report, which gives clear and ample evidence that the testing, certifying, and securing of game balls was not a serious matter for league officials.

I say 'assumption', because you clearly hadn't read the report and likely still haven't, given that misguided bit of Enron fantasy math that nonetheless arrives at a total fine that still falls well short of what was actually levied (when you factor in what Brady will lose in game checks).

Naturally, you end by lecturing people not be childish.

 

[moleculo]

Another thing working against the Patriots, and the "everybody cheats" argument, is their pattern of denial. Other teams (Browns, Falcons, Jets) have all been caught breaking rules this offseason in one form or another, but they have taken responsibility for it, fully cooperated, and accepted their punishment. Because of their cooperation and acceptance, their punishments were relatively lenient in comparison to the Pats.

The Pats have always denied wrongdoing, made excuses, cast blame, failed to cooperate, and publicly challenged the league at every turn. Even when Kraft accepted the penalties, he did so "reluctantly". It's fine to make the league prove its case, but the Pats level of blatant hostility towards the investigation has been extreme and absurd ("The Deflator" as a weight loss program????). Taking this tact is bound to result in much stiffer penalties as it reflects a lack of organizational accountability towards the integrity of the game. They got what they deserved.

I do not believe the league came to the Pats and asked for their side of the story after the AFCCG.

Ummmm... didn't we get a science lesson from BB and denial from TB?

Did we not learn the night of the AFCCG that the Patriots were under investigation?Also, the Pats situation started playing out leading up to the SB. The incidents involving the other teams out were looked into over many months and not immediately.

Even after the BB and Brady press conferences, the league could have doled out minimal penalty to make things go away and instead focus on the SB. But they didn't.

Yeah, the come back is don't cheat and then you won't get investigated. I think the Pats should have been punished but I think the league went a little overboard over the whole thing and the penalties.

I don't think there's any question they went overboard. However, we have to keep in mind the magnitude of this all happening - this was not a 6-10 team trying to make their home turf seem loud, and this was not a 7-9 team where the GM was sending text messages. This was the day after the AFC Championship game, headed into the superbowl.There is no way the league could have tried to sweep this under the rug.

I've said it before - if you don't want a microscope on your team, stay out of championship games.

We will see what happens moving forward, but there is a perception that the Patriots get rocked for penalties and other teams don't. (Sure, the Pats haven't done themselves any favors in this regard.)But if the league wants to play the integrity of the game card, then one would assume all games should be played on a level playing field and all teams should be subjected to the same penalties.

My biggest gripe with the league is they don't enforce things consistently. Even for things with negotiated penalties for PEDs and substance abuse (4 game suspensions), they don't stick to the collectively bargained penalties. Some players get 4 games. Some players get 1 or 2 games. Some get tossed or ignored or overturned.

Where I get stuck is agreeing in principle that the Patriots broke the rules, but also thinking that the inflation of the footballs did not cause the Colts to get blown out. To some people, playing with a slightly underinflated football is cheating at the highest order. To me, it's a minor rules infraction.

If the league is start going to launch major investigations against other teams and dock multiple draft picks and suspend HOF players from other teams, then I have no problem with the league coming down hard on NE. But if they go back to ignoring things, issuing small fines, or generally not caring to investigate or punish rules infractions for other teams, then I would feel the Pats got the short end of the stick in all of this.

I think the bolded is a perception in New England. I'm quite sure our friends in New Orleans would disagree. As would Ray Rice, Josh Gordon, or hell, Matt Prater who got a 4 game suspension for enjoying a beer at home. I would agree that playing with marginally under-inflated footballs is a minor rules infraction, and did not cause the Colts to be blown out. I would not agree that the act of altering certified footballs, post-inspection, is a minor infraction.

This looks suspiciously like a view you've expressed previously that was based on a perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report.

The officials' haphazard pregame protocols with the balls basically invited tampering, in a league that is already doing whatever it can to let the QBs have the balls as they want them. The minimum penalty for tampering with game balls is a measly $25,000.

You can believe it's a serious infraction, but all the evidence shows that prior to January 18, 2015, the NFL didn't agree with you.

What assumption in the Wells report is perfectly wrong? Are you still on about which gauge was used pre-game?

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

Also, I really wish you guys would stop blaming the NFL for this. It's very much like my kids whining that they wouldn't have gotten in trouble for sneaking candy if we hadn't left it out...guess what - you knew you weren't supposed to have any after dinner, and you did anyways.

The difference here is my kids are 6 and 8. the Patriots are grown ### men and should know better.

Your perfectly wrong assumption about the Wells report, which gives clear and ample evidence that the testing, certifying, and securing of game balls was not a serious matter for league officials.

I say 'assumption', because you clearly hadn't read the report and likely still haven't, given that misguided bit of Enron fantasy math that nonetheless arrives at a total fine that still falls well short of what was actually levied (when you factor in what Brady will lose in game checks).

Naturally, you end by lecturing people not be childish.

I'm sorry, I'm still not clear what you claim is an assumption.

Are you implying that the NFL does not take testing, certifying, or securing game balls seriously? Even if that were so, how would that change anything?

Do you really think I haven't read the report? Seriously?

ETA: pats now do not have to pay Brady for 1/4 of the season, saving ~$1.2M. They are making money on this "punishment"...

 

[Stealthycat]

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

So Colts would be looking at least at a $100,000 fine right ? Actually $300,000 because 3/4 of balls tested were under.

Colts got off with NOTHING

fair and logical isn't it ?

 

[moleculo]

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

So Colts would be looking at least at a $100,000 fine right ? Actually $300,000 because 3/4 of balls tested were under.

Colts got off with NOTHING

fair and logical isn't it ?

ignorance is not a pleasant trait. read the report.

 

[Jercules]

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

So Colts would be looking at least at a $100,000 fine right ? Actually $300,000 because 3/4 of balls tested were under.

Colts got off with NOTHING

fair and logical isn't it ?

ignorance is not a pleasant trait. read the report.

You're becoming a self parody. You don't like childish behavior, you don't like ignorance... all that's left is to condemn psuedo-superhero usernames and comedian avatars.

 

[skinsrule05]

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

So Colts would be looking at least at a $100,000 fine right ? Actually $300,000 because 3/4 of balls tested were under.

Colts got off with NOTHING

fair and logical isn't it ?

ignorance is not a pleasant trait. read the report.

Time to ignore them Molecule. These two are in the small Pats fan minority that will not believe their team did anything wrong no matter what is shown to them. The good news is that they are in a very small minority.

 

[davearm]

Walt Anderson's task was to ensure the footballs were inflated to proper specs. He did that. There's neither a requirement, nor an expectation that he record the actual measurements in writing.

It's entirely plausible, and even the most likely event, that Anderson has a very clear recollection of the PSI's (as you mentioned, those PSI's were a point of emphasis), but little recollection of the actual gauge used to observe those PSIs.

Have you seen the two gauges? They look almost identical from the front. They're distinguishable from the back, where the logo is (or is not). The back would be facing Anderson's palm as he uses the gauge.

I know there's no requirement, it adds to my point: none of this was taken seriously at the time.

And since all of this hinges on fractions of psis up or down, I'd argue it's inappropriate to base significant conclusions on Anderson's vague recollection of 25+ different psis (especially when you've, at least presumably, found reason to doubt his recollection in other respects).

I reject the premise that not writing down PSIs on a piece of paper indicates "none of this was taken seriously". It's not only faulty, but is contradicted by the evidence.

And Anderson's recollection of the ball PSIs was not vague.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

$25k per occurance. By my count, this occurred 12 times in the AFCCG alone, and we should probably assume it occurred 12x in every Patriots home game all season. Should have been a $3m fine. Patriots got off light.

So Colts would be looking at least at a $100,000 fine right ? Actually $300,000 because 3/4 of balls tested were under.

Colts got off with NOTHING

fair and logical isn't it ?

ignorance is not a pleasant trait. read the report.

You're becoming a self parody. You don't like childish behavior, you don't like ignorance... all that's left is to condemn psuedo-superhero usernames and comedian avatars.

Booooo! Hisssssssss!

 

[Jercules]

Walt Anderson's task was to ensure the footballs were inflated to proper specs. He did that. There's neither a requirement, nor an expectation that he record the actual measurements in writing.

It's entirely plausible, and even the most likely event, that Anderson has a very clear recollection of the PSI's (as you mentioned, those PSI's were a point of emphasis), but little recollection of the actual gauge used to observe those PSIs.

Have you seen the two gauges? They look almost identical from the front. They're distinguishable from the back, where the logo is (or is not). The back would be facing Anderson's palm as he uses the gauge.

I know there's no requirement, it adds to my point: none of this was taken seriously at the time.

And since all of this hinges on fractions of psis up or down, I'd argue it's inappropriate to base significant conclusions on Anderson's vague recollection of 25+ different psis (especially when you've, at least presumably, found reason to doubt his recollection in other respects).

I reject the premise that not writing down PSIs on a piece of paper indicates "none of this was taken seriously". It's not only faulty, but is contradicted by the evidence.

And Anderson's recollection of the ball PSIs was not vague.

I said it adds to my point, I didn't say it makes my point entirely.

The Wells report is littered with examples of abject nonchalance on the part of the officials with regards to inspecting and securing the game balls (my personal favorite: leaving them alone in their essentially public locker room for 15-20 minutes while they do their pregame on the field... routinely).

And again, relying on anyone's best recollection of 25 or 26 different psi measurements days--perhaps even weeks--after they were made, when your otherwise highly scientific analysis rest on +/- fractions of a psi, is a little silly.

 

[Stealthycat]

I've tried to find the report on the Colts cheating and why 75% of the balls they used were illegal

I can't find it - can ya'll point me to it please?

 

[Stealthycat]

2 teams

both deflated balls were found at halftime

one team all balls were tested, the other team only 4

one team was investigated, the other wasn't

fair and logical

 

[Run It Up]

I have two sets of wrenches in my tool box - one Craftsman, and one is cheap Chinese steel. Yesterday I was installing a light fixture. I know the nut was 9/16". I would place my hand on the Bible and swear that the nut was 9/16". I would tell you that I probably used the Craftsman wrench, but if you had evidence that I actually used the Chinese wrench, I wouldn't argue.

We're not talking about wrenches, were talking about gauges with a ~1psi margin of error and we're talking about half a psi worth of ####### air pressure.

 

[moleculo]

I have two sets of wrenches in my tool box - one Craftsman, and one is cheap Chinese steel. Yesterday I was installing a light fixture. I know the nut was 9/16". I would place my hand on the Bible and swear that the nut was 9/16". I would tell you that I probably used the Craftsman wrench, but if you had evidence that I actually used the Chinese wrench, I wouldn't argue.

We're not talking about wrenches, were talking about gauges with a ~1psi margin of error and we're talking about half a psi worth of ####### air pressure.

We are talking about tools that are nearly identical in appearance, differing only by the presence of one logo. Both tools were tested and found to be repeatable within roughly +/-0.1 psi. One tool was out of calibration by roughly 0.4 psi, but beyond that, their performance is nearly indistinguishable.