Patriots being investigated after Colts game (9 Viewers)

[sho nuff]

So Jerry Rice cheating is okay but this isn't?

Jerry Rice has nothing to do with this.

But sure...go ahead and suspend him for 4 games this year.

 

[Burl]

So Jerry Rice cheating is okay but this isn't?

What do you propose we do to him 20-30 years later? Should we suspend him 4 games as well?

 

[Bayhawks]

So Jerry Rice cheating is okay but this isn't?

No, but that's not relevant.When Roy Bryant was on trial for lynching Emmitt Till, he couldn't argue "lots of people got lynched in the past; since they got away with, why can't I?"

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So Jerry Rice cheating is okay but this isn't?

I heard a rumor that Aaron Rodgers likes to have his footballs inflated over the legal limit. You should look into that -- I'll bet you can get some traction with that one.

 

[socrates]

So Jerry Rice cheating is okay but this isn't?

There is an old trial lawyers’ saying: “When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.”

Brady and his defenders have resorted to pounding the table.

 

[CoolHandLukeB]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

 

[sho nuff]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

The Patriots have already admitted some guilt by accepting the first punishment.

And Brady's story is just not plausible in the minds of reasonable people.

And as a guy on Mike and Mike just said...they are now trying to get the courts to change things they could not get changed at the bargaining table and courts have typically not liked that.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Seriously how are we supposed to believe Brady when he claims there is nothing on the one thing that could set him free (his phone) but he decided to destroyed it. LOL!?!?! He is looking more and more like an idiot with each move he is making.

 

[Stealthycat]

Brady is absolutely right in everything he's said.

Beat a woman, get 2 games. Be in a playoff game where both teams have under pressured balls? blame only one of the teams, blame the QB and suspend for 4 games.

Goodell is fair if nothing else, isn't he?

Big GIANT black eye for the NFL and Goodell here - monetary fines, the draft picks .... those would have been allowed and accepted .... Goodell had to do his incredibly dumb knee jerk reaction God Power thing though.

I hope Brady wins in court now - piss on Goodell and the idiocy of it all.

BTW Luck got away scott free - don't forget Indy balls were deflated too

 

[The General]

Brady is absolutely right in everything he's said.

Beat a woman, get 2 games. Be in a playoff game where both teams have under pressured balls? blame only one of the teams, blame the QB and suspend for 4 games.

Goodell is fair if nothing else, isn't he?

Big GIANT black eye for the NFL and Goodell here - monetary fines, the draft picks .... those would have been allowed and accepted .... Goodell had to do his incredibly dumb knee jerk reaction God Power thing though.

I hope Brady wins in court now - piss on Goodell and the idiocy of it all.

BTW Luck got away scott free - don't forget Indy balls were deflated too

Remove other players suspensions, dislike of Goodell.

Does Brady have any guilt? What do you think happened?

 

[Burl]

Since I heard it on Mike and Mike just now. Does this apply to this situation or is this only applicable in a court of law? Spoliation of Evidence

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

There are two completely separate and unrelated issues here:

1) Is Tom Brady a cheater, and did he fail to cooperate with the league's investigation into his cheating? The answers are obviously yes and yes. Everybody knows that at this point, including even die-hard Patriot fans.

2) Did the NFL follow its own policies, the CBA, and general labor laws when it punished Brady? That's going to what the courts are asked to sort out.

Even if the NFL goes on to lose in court, will lose because a judge decides that the answer to #2 is "no." That will do absolutely nothing to change the answer to #1. Tom Brady is a cheater. He might be able to escape punishment by appealing to the rule of the shop or something similar, but she's still a cheater regardless.

 

[socrates]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

I get what you are saying, and I have ardently criticized Goodell's handling of multiple issues. However, in this case, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. The facts uncovered in the Wells Report suggest that Tom Brady was both aware of and likely involved in the scheme to deflate the balls. Brady's failure to cooperate by providing what he claims was exculpatory evidence does not support his version of the facts.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

Goodell has arguably the most difficult job in sports. He is dealing with a league full of powerful people who are millionaires and billionaires.

There are plenty of individuals apart of the league who are getting into trouble yearly for some very poor choices: DUI, domestic abuse etc. He then is dealing with a powerful union in the NFLPA who are paid a lot of money to defend individuals trying to gain competitive advantages by cheating with steroid use, air pressure in balls etc.

You also have coaches and GM's that do some dumb things like taping a walk through, stealing signals, pumping in fake crowd noise, making bounties on other teams players etc

Goodell also inherited a messy situation with the dealing of injuries back in the day. You always have the threat of someone suing you for this.

Mix in a ton of egos, a ton of rich lawyers, a ton of shady agents and you have one giant mess of a situation that Goodell has grown into the most profitable pro sport and easily the best product out there.

Goodell is not perfect by any means, but the whole situation is less than ideal and he often becomes the fall guy for a league full of many issues when he has to crack down on dumb people.

People like to talk #### about Goodell but the man has a tough job.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Since I heard it on Mike and Mike just now. Does this apply to this situation or is this only applicable in a court of law? Spoliation of Evidence

The spoliation inference is a negative evidentiary inference that a finder of fact can draw from a party's destruction of a document or thing that is relevant to an ongoing or reasonably foreseeable civil or criminal proceeding: the finder of fact can review all evidence uncovered in as strong a light as possible against the spoliator and in favor of the opposing party.

Yes, Goodell references this idea, in slightly different verbiage, a number of times in his ruling.

 

[Banger]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

Goodell has arguably the most difficult job in sports. He is dealing with a league full of powerful people who are millionaires and billionaires.

There are plenty of individuals apart of the league who are getting into trouble yearly for some very poor choices: DUI, domestic abuse etc. He then is dealing with a powerful union in the NFLPA who are paid a lot of money to defend individuals trying to gain competitive advantages by cheating with steroid use, air pressure in balls etc.

You also have coaches and GM's that do some dumb things like taping a walk through, stealing signals, pumping in fake crowd noise, making bounties on other teams players etc

Goodell also inherited a messy situation with the dealing of injuries back in the day. You always have the threat of someone suing you for this.

Mix in a ton of egos, a ton of rich lawyers, a ton of shady agents and you have one giant mess of a situation that Goodell has grown into the most profitable pro sport and easily the best product out there.

Goodell is not perfect by any means, but the whole situation is less than ideal and he often becomes the fall guy for a league full of many issues when he has to crack down on dumb people.

People like to talk #### about Goodell but the man has a tough job.

thankfully he gets paid a pretty decent wage of about $45 mill/year to help him sleep better at night.

 

[bostonfred]

Scorch that earth Bob

 

[bostonfred]

And gb belichick holding a press conference to say they're getting ready for the 2015 season.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

 

[Burl]

Scorch that earth Bob

His statement sounded like a desperate plea to appeal to the NE fans.

 

[flapgreen]

And gb belichick holding a press conference to say they're getting ready for the 2015 season.

 

[sho nuff]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

More probable than not won't hold up?

Why not?

Its what the courts use.

And the court will not be ruling on guilt or innocence of Brady...

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

I get what you are saying, and I have ardently criticized Goodell's handling of multiple issues. However, in this case, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. The facts uncovered in the Wells Report suggest that Tom Brady was both aware of and likely involved in the scheme to deflate the balls. Brady's failure to cooperate by providing what he claims was exculpatory evidence does not support his version of the facts.

highlighted is the key word.....the facts "suggest" he was guilty........none of us want facts that "suggest" something when it comes to our guilt/innocence/integrity/legacy/being called a cheater...

 

[Shutout]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

I get what you are saying, and I have ardently criticized Goodell's handling of multiple issues. However, in this case, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. The facts uncovered in the Wells Report suggest that Tom Brady was both aware of and likely involved in the scheme to deflate the balls. Brady's failure to cooperate by providing what he claims was exculpatory evidence does not support his version of the facts.

Not everyone in the world rolls over and responds, "yes master" every time someone demands it, especially if the person believes they are out of line in demanding it.

Tom Brady said clearly this morning that a big part of this issue is that he is not willing to just roll over and allow the league to set precedent on something by using him in this case. He, and others, believe the league was out of line. Schefter pointed out yesterday that a formal policy on part of this didn't even exist until 3 days ago.

Some people have made up their mind and assume he cheated. He says he didn't. Nothing we say is going to change people's minds if they already want to think a certain way but there is nothing wrong with the man standing up for something he believes in, if that is the case. If he is guilty then so be it. Then yes, its a dog and pony show. But if he's not guilty, then people might be smart to understand that there is more going on than meets the eye.

When I see posts like "the Pats already admitted they cheated by accepting punishment" does not mean AT ALL that they are guilty. We see in society every day where people say "screw it, I'll take the 10 minute time out to avoid the expense and emotional wear down of fighting over the 50 minute time out." Yes, sometimes those people are guilty and they "get off light". But other times, people are not guilty and they simply either don't have the resources to fight the big guy or they are well-rounded enough to know that there is a bigger picture.

 

[HellToupee]

Patriots fans , you guys have a good owner

 

[Burl]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

According to the spoliation of evidence link I posted above, Brady essentially can't fight the actual facts any longer. Destruction of evidence allows you to essentially look on it and determine as much guilt as you want from it. Also, the 51-49 guilt is all that was ever needed.

 

[Godsbrother]

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

To me it seems the best way to protect your integrity is to be fully cooperative and transparent as possible during the investigation. Brady wasn't willing to do that and I guess we'll see if that was a good decision or not.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

.I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....

Good point. If I was innocent and was fighting to protect my integrity, I would absolutely not do something completely counterproductive, like destroying my phone and the exculpatory evidence contained therein.

Brady did something . . . else.

Edit: What Godsbrother said.

 

[Shutout]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

 

[sho nuff]

.I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....

Good point. If I was innocent and was fighting to protect my integrity, I would absolutely not do something completely counterproductive, like destroying my phone and the exculpatory evidence contained therein.

Brady did something . . . else.

Edit: What Godsbrother said.

Yeah...he pretty much made it worse by doing so...thus calling his integrity into question even more.

 

[bostonfred]

Scorch that earth Bob

His statement sounded like a desperate plea to appeal to the NE fans.

it wasn't an appeal, he literally apologized to the fans for not appealing the picks penalty.

 

[sho nuff]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

WTF?

Yeah...if someone called CPS on me...Im going to obstruct any investigation, and destroy possible evidence.

Im sure the courts would love that.

 

[bostonfred]

Patriots fans , you guys have a good owner

Amazing today. Absolutely amazing.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Kraft trying to win back his fans that he lost.

 

[Green and Gold]

This is the story that will never, ever end.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

There are two completely separate and unrelated issues here:

1) Is Tom Brady a cheater, and did he fail to cooperate with the league's investigation into his cheating? The answers are obviously yes and yes. Everybody knows that at this point, including even die-hard Patriot fans.

2) Did the NFL follow its own policies, the CBA, and general labor laws when it punished Brady? That's going to what the courts are asked to sort out.

Even if the NFL goes on to lose in court, will lose because a judge decides that the answer to #2 is "no." That will do absolutely nothing to change the answer to #1. Tom Brady is a cheater. He might be able to escape punishment by appealing to the rule of the shop or something similar, but she's still a cheater regardless.

1. Brady did not actually deflate the footballs...so he did not directly cheat......he did not fail to cooperate, he cooperated a lot.....interviewed, gave up phone records, etc.....he may not have cooperated as much as the league would have liked (by not giving them his PERSONAL phone).....but he did cooperate....to say he did not cooperate is inaccurate......so the answers aren't "obviously" yes and yes....

2. I agree this is what it will come down to and why this could go either way

you have obviously already made up your mind about him based on what you have heard so far.....which even as the NFL admits is nothing more than "well, we think he knew what was going on"......

 

[Burl]

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

To me it seems the best way to protect your integrity is to be fully cooperative and transparent as possible during the investigation. Brady wasn't willing to do that and I guess we'll see if that was a good decision or not.

This is what I don't get from a lot of people. A lot of "deniers" are saying they would NEVER hand over their phone to their employer if they were accused of something. If my boss came to me and said, "I think you did this thing and I'd like to check your phone quick to see your text messages from your coworker." If I haven't done ANYTHING wrong, I wouldn't hesitate to show him my phone. I don't care what precedence this sets with the other employees at my work. I'd be in CYA mode. Easiest way to show innocence is to just cooperate out of the gate. Everything goes away so much faster if you just admit to it right away and you might get a little leeway in terms of punishment.

Remember what you tell your kids folks. You get in LESS trouble if you just admit to it right away, rather than dragging it out.

 

[Old Smiley]

Mike Florio on how the league has been manipulating the message from the beginning. From the first erroneous pressure statements, to the Wells report, to the 'destroyed' phone.

Brady's phone being broken makes things a bit -- a bit -- more understandable. Still, just from a tactics standpoint, one of the most foolish things I've ever heard.

Amazing how hard a line both sides are taking.

 

[sho nuff]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

There are two completely separate and unrelated issues here:

1) Is Tom Brady a cheater, and did he fail to cooperate with the league's investigation into his cheating? The answers are obviously yes and yes. Everybody knows that at this point, including even die-hard Patriot fans.

2) Did the NFL follow its own policies, the CBA, and general labor laws when it punished Brady? That's going to what the courts are asked to sort out.

Even if the NFL goes on to lose in court, will lose because a judge decides that the answer to #2 is "no." That will do absolutely nothing to change the answer to #1. Tom Brady is a cheater. He might be able to escape punishment by appealing to the rule of the shop or something similar, but she's still a cheater regardless.

1. Brady did not actually deflate the footballs...so he did not directly cheat......he did not fail to cooperate, he cooperated a lot.....interviewed, gave up phone records, etc.....he may not have cooperated as much as the league would have liked (by not giving them his PERSONAL phone).....but he did cooperate....to say he di not cooperate is inaccurate......so the answers aren't "obviously yes and yes....

2. I agree this is what it will come down to and why this could go either way

you have obviously already made up your mind about him based on what you have heard so far.....which even as the NFL admits is nothing more than "well, we think he knew what was going on"......

1. No...he did not cooperate all that much. Giving up a supposed spreadsheet is crap. Most understand this. And yeah...he did cheat and lie. This seems quite clear at this point.

2. It won't go either way...the NFLPA agreed to the procedure in the CBA...now want the courts to fight their bargaining battles for them.

 

[Shutout]

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

To me it seems the best way to protect your integrity is to be fully cooperative and transparent as possible during the investigation. Brady wasn't willing to do that and I guess we'll see if that was a good decision or not.

But only to the degree where a private citizen's rights and dignity are still protected.

Just because someone accuses a person of something does not mean they have to reveal their private life to the entire world.

IF you suspect your teenage daughter just had sex, you can confront her about it and try to get the bottom of it, but you don't expect her to be "fully cooperative and transparent" to the degree where she removes her clothes in front of her father and says "here, take a look". Brady and his people may be liars, but on the surface, they have said repeatedly that they supplied a LOT of info and the phone was destroyed after everyone on both sides knew it wasn't going to be turned over (and there are many reasons why people wouldn't agree with that..they don't have to imply guilt). Heck, I don't know many people right now who would feel comfortable about turning their phone over to someone else. That doesn't mean there are sinister things on it. Just means that people by and large like to maintain an aspect of privacy.

 

[Burl]

Mike Florio on how the league has been manipulating the message from the beginning. From the first erroneous pressure statements, to the Wells report, to the 'destroyed' phone.

Brady's phone being broken makes things a bit -- a bit -- more understandable. Still, just from a tactics standpoint, one of the most foolish things I've ever heard.

Amazing how hard a line both sides are taking.

I do agree with this to an extent that the NFL has been controlling the narrative a lot. If they are going to lose in the courts and the suspension is lifted, they've at least succeeded in making Brady look absolutely terrible in all this. The NFL doesn't look too good in all this either, but they didn't have much to begin with.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

More probable than not won't hold up?

Why not?

Its what the courts use.

And the court will not be ruling on guilt or innocence of Brady...

guess when I usually think of court rulings I think more along the lines of "beyond a reasonable doubt"..... and I think we can all agree here there are many holes in the leagues case that raise doubt......51-49 makes me think there is a quite a bit of doubt.....

 

[sho nuff]

Mike Florio on how the league has been manipulating the message from the beginning. From the first erroneous pressure statements, to the Wells report, to the 'destroyed' phone.

Brady's phone being broken makes things a bit -- a bit -- more understandable. Still, just from a tactics standpoint, one of the most foolish things I've ever heard.

Amazing how hard a line both sides are taking.

You believe his phone was actually broken?

 

[sho nuff]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

More probable than not won't hold up?

Why not?

Its what the courts use.

And the court will not be ruling on guilt or innocence of Brady...

guess when I usually think of court rulings I think more along the lines of "beyond a reasonable doubt"..... and I think we can all agree here there are many holes in the leagues case that raise doubt......51-49 makes me think there is a quite a bit of doubt.....

Beyond a reasonable doubt is for a criminal case.

More probable that not (which isn't just 51-49...but at least that) is the threshold in civil cases.

This has been stated many times.

I think there are far more holes in Brady's case...its quite clear to most reasonable people out there at this point.

 

[Shutout]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

WTF?

Yeah...if someone called CPS on me...Im going to obstruct any investigation, and destroy possible evidence.

Im sure the courts would love that.

you completely misunderstand. In no way am I saying they destroy evidience. What I am saying is that they aren't going to just roll over and say "sure, whatever...it's complete garbage and a lie, but I'll just sit here and take it and let everyone do whatever they want and say whatever they want." Point being, you would stand up against it and if part of your rights are privacy, you would enforce that.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I get that people don't give the Patriots/Brady any benefit of the doubt, be it Spygate, the success of the franchise, "the Patriot Way", whatever. What has the NFL done to deserve any of the benefit of the doubt here? Every time Goodell has made a ruling, he's gotten it overturned. He blatantly lied about the Ray Rice video last year. He has a history of abusing power and then having it reversed.

There are two completely separate and unrelated issues here:

1) Is Tom Brady a cheater, and did he fail to cooperate with the league's investigation into his cheating? The answers are obviously yes and yes. Everybody knows that at this point, including even die-hard Patriot fans.

2) Did the NFL follow its own policies, the CBA, and general labor laws when it punished Brady? That's going to what the courts are asked to sort out.

Even if the NFL goes on to lose in court, will lose because a judge decides that the answer to #2 is "no." That will do absolutely nothing to change the answer to #1. Tom Brady is a cheater. He might be able to escape punishment by appealing to the rule of the shop or something similar, but she's still a cheater regardless.

1. Brady did not actually deflate the footballs...so he did not directly cheat......he did not fail to cooperate, he cooperated a lot.....interviewed, gave up phone records, etc.....he may not have cooperated as much as the league would have liked (by not giving them his PERSONAL phone).....but he did cooperate....to say he di not cooperate is inaccurate......so the answers aren't "obviously yes and yes....

2. I agree this is what it will come down to and why this could go either way

you have obviously already made up your mind about him based on what you have heard so far.....which even as the NFL admits is nothing more than "well, we think he knew what was going on"......

I'm cooperating here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Je2WxsqWA

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Going to back track several months....

Does anybody actually buy that the nickname "the deflator" is in regards to a diet?

Seriously.

 

[Burl]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

WTF?

Yeah...if someone called CPS on me...Im going to obstruct any investigation, and destroy possible evidence.

Im sure the courts would love that.

you completely misunderstand. In no way am I saying they destroy evidience. What I am saying is that they aren't going to just roll over and say "sure, whatever...it's complete garbage and a lie, but I'll just sit here and take it and let everyone do whatever they want and say whatever they want." Point being, you would stand up against it and if part of your rights are privacy, you would enforce that.

Aren't you making his point for him? If CPS was called, you are going to give them EVERYTHING they want to prove your innocence.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

WTF?

Yeah...if someone called CPS on me...Im going to obstruct any investigation, and destroy possible evidence.

Im sure the courts would love that.

you completely misunderstand. In no way am I saying they destroy evidience. What I am saying is that they aren't going to just roll over and say "sure, whatever...it's complete garbage and a lie, but I'll just sit here and take it and let everyone do whatever they want and say whatever they want." Point being, you would stand up against it and if part of your rights are privacy, you would enforce that.

Aren't you making his point for him? If CPS was called, you are going to give them EVERYTHING they want to prove your innocence.

bingo.

 

[sho nuff]

if this was the Patriots phone or the NFL's phone that Brady was using as an employee, then I can see how not turning it over and/or destroying it would be "uncooperative" and worthy of a suspension or firing......but not giving you my personal cell phone is not uncooperative.....its just not giving you MY phone....if you think that's uncooperative and you are going to consequence me thats on you and you better be ready to prove how that is in a legal court room.....employees have rights and are protected from these type of things.....

You are undoubtedly passionate about this, and I understand your distinction.

However, the evidence which was already in the investigative record would reasonably lead to the conclusion that Brady was directly involved in and had knowledge of the ball deflation. Brady's failure to cooperate with the League's investigation only exacerbated an already bad situation for him.

If you have not already read Roger Goodell's Decision, I encourage you to do so. It is thorough and well reasoned.

Specific to your point, Goodell finds as follows: "Mr. Brady's failure to cooperate and his destruction of potentially relevant evidence are significant because the ability to conduct an investigation . . . ultimately depends on cooperation." Goodell acknowledged that the NFL lacks subpoena power to compel the production of relevant material, but states "the NFL is entitled to expect and insist upon the cooperation . . . in a workplace investigation and to impose sanctions when such cooperation is not forthcoming, when evidence is hidden, fabricated or destroyed . . . or when individuals do not provide truthful information. Moreover, in such cases, there is no question that the hearing officer may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct."

If no evidence is produced to the contrary, would it not be reasonable to rely upon the evidence in record?

honestly I could really give a rats butt from football perspective.....I'm a KC fan....I got bigger problems

to me it's more a matter of principle.....either you have the proof or you don't.....and in this case, it appears they don't or else they wouldn't be making a big deal about the phone....they know their "more probable than not" may not hold up in the end...... even though it meets their low limit of "proof" that they can currently make rulings on......the reason this is going further than some guy getting suspended for a DUI is you are dealing with a person's integrity when you call them a cheater and a liar.....you better have more than "more probable than not" when you start calling people's integrity and legacy into question.....I think all of us would fight like heck to protect our integrity and legacy....wouldn't you?.....I would.....I'm not gonna go down without a fight especially if I know you are grasping for straws which it appears the NFL has been doing....now they are falling back on "hey he destroyed his phone so he muuuuuuuust be guilty, right everybody?????....right....??????...come on right.......that's our court of public opinion proof, he destroyed his phone, bam, guilty......

Brady's calling out the 51-49 ruling cause he knows they don't have more than that and he actually thinks he didn't do anything wrong, but it may not matter as the courts are going to be more focused on the process than guilt or innocence...

Agree. Its crazy that so many people are calling guilt and acting like it is ludicrous that a man would stand on a principle-especially one that questions who he is ethically and morally. I'm sure if some of these guy's neighbors called child protective services on them for beating their kids and he didn't, they would probably go the extra mile to fight that.

Congrats on Eric Berry, too. THat is awesome news.

WTF?

Yeah...if someone called CPS on me...Im going to obstruct any investigation, and destroy possible evidence.

Im sure the courts would love that.

you completely misunderstand. In no way am I saying they destroy evidience. What I am saying is that they aren't going to just roll over and say "sure, whatever...it's complete garbage and a lie, but I'll just sit here and take it and let everyone do whatever they want and say whatever they want." Point being, you would stand up against it and if part of your rights are privacy, you would enforce that.

Yes...and I would have fully cooperated with the investigation.

Brady did not do so...yet, now is in full defense mode after he screwed up.