Pro Football Focus now subscriber only (5 Viewers)

[kurtrudder]

Well so much for that wealth of information, $90 a year is way to rich for my blood. It's a real shame it's not more affordable because I would probably pony up the cash but not at these prices.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/amember/signup.php

ETA: $90 a year, not month......it was a typo, its too rich none the less when you consider you get all the fantasy info you need here at FBG for less than $30 a year

 

[Weiner Dog]

$90/month?!?!

I love their website, but they could cut the price by 75% and still not consistently net customers. $90/month is 3-4x the price of NFL Ticket on Direct TV.

 

[Kal]

Quick correction - It's $90 per year

Monthly is $24.99 and the first month of the season there's a trial price of $9 - while there's a free trial up until September.

I work at PFF and can assure people this isn't something we wanted to do, and one day we'd love to secure enough funding that we don't need to, but it's either we do this or we shut up shop to cover the costs (as it is a few of us will still be pounding out 90 hours a week in two jobs to get the info out and accurate)

I'd look at some of the other stats packages out there and they're a heck of a lot more expensive (some are thousands of dollars) and I'd say we're a lot more reliable given the amount of time we spend on each game (16 hours per game) and provide a lot more stats.

Still we're not naive, we're aware not everyone will go from free users to subscribers to we're going to be ramping up the amount of articles we produce significantly which will be completely free

Happy to deal with any questions and pass on feedback

 

[Dave Larkin]

I understand why PFF have to do this, and I'll probably end up paying because I love the content so much, but it's a pity it had to come to this.

 

[blend]

odd. I've never even heard of the site. What do people use it for?

 

[lyon812]

Wow. I love the site, but not for that much. One month of PFF roughly equals a year of FBG. There's a problem with that.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

odd. I've never even heard of the site. What do people use it for?

it'd be hard to describe it, but they have info on there that I've never seen anywhere else.if they have that free trial kal mentioned, I'd suggest you just sign up for that and check it out for yourself.edit: oh yeah, they have a free trial -- just need an e-mail.post again in this thread if anybody needs help on using the site.

 

[Weiner Dog]

Quick correction - It's $90 per year

Monthly is $24.99 and the first month of the season there's a trial price of $9 - while there's a free trial up until September.

I work at PFF and can assure people this isn't something we wanted to do, and one day we'd love to secure enough funding that we don't need to, but it's either we do this or we shut up shop to cover the costs (as it is a few of us will still be pounding out 90 hours a week in two jobs to get the info out and accurate)

I'd look at some of the other stats packages out there and they're a heck of a lot more expensive (some are thousands of dollars) and I'd say we're a lot more reliable given the amount of time we spend on each game (16 hours per game) and provide a lot more stats.

Still we're not naive, we're aware not everyone will go from free users to subscribers to we're going to be ramping up the amount of articles we produce significantly which will be completely free

Happy to deal with any questions and pass on feedback

Whew. $90/year is a little easier to stomach. I really like the PFF site and hope you guys do well. Working for free/fun doesn't pay the bills...I don't blame you guys for wanting to get paid.Have you guys attempted to work with FBG's as an "add-on" service? It would probably be easier to land 4,000 customers at $5/pop vs 200 customers at $90/pop.

 

[kurtrudder]

Quick correction - It's $90 per year

Monthly is $24.99 and the first month of the season there's a trial price of $9 - while there's a free trial up until September.

I work at PFF and can assure people this isn't something we wanted to do, and one day we'd love to secure enough funding that we don't need to, but it's either we do this or we shut up shop to cover the costs (as it is a few of us will still be pounding out 90 hours a week in two jobs to get the info out and accurate)

I'd look at some of the other stats packages out there and they're a heck of a lot more expensive (some are thousands of dollars) and I'd say we're a lot more reliable given the amount of time we spend on each game (16 hours per game) and provide a lot more stats.

Still we're not naive, we're aware not everyone will go from free users to subscribers to we're going to be ramping up the amount of articles we produce significantly which will be completely free

Happy to deal with any questions and pass on feedback

Whew. $90/year is a little easier to stomach. I really like the PFF site and hope you guys do well. Working for free/fun doesn't pay the bills...I don't blame you guys for wanting to get paid.Have you guys attempted to work with FBG's as an "add-on" service? It would probably be easier to land 4,000 customers at $5/pop vs 200 customers at $90/pop.

Great call WD. If the overall yearly price was something more palatable like say $20 or $30 a year, I would pay it for sure. I love the content at PFF, the stat packages, the game charting and player participation stuff was gold. I wasn't over there for the articles so they can pump out 20 a day and i could care less, I was there for the stats and now they cost too much.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Sigh.

I think the amount of time I spent on their website over the past 12 months considering their data would have been worth 90 dollars.

Unfortunately, that premium subscription cost will not include access to specific player participation numbers. The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year. If you're interested in just one team's data, you can get a single team subscription for 50 dollars a season. I've really enjoyed being able to supplement watching the games with the participation logs, but this is similar to the time where I requested a quote from STATS, Inc for some of their subscription stats and the rep told me 7500 dollars.

I'm still considering the premium subscription to access some of their game charting stats, but that's become debatable without full access to the game charting process. Best of luck to PFF, but it would appear that they're pricing the individual football fan out of their market.

 

[massraider]

Unfortunately, that premium subscription cost will not include access to specific player participation numbers. The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

Best of luck to them.

 

[Anthony Borbely]

The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

 

[Moniker]

The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

Absolutely insane.I understand the move to a subscription based system and *might* have subscribed for the $90 because I use the player participation spreadsheets so often. The spreadsheets having an additional (and ridiculous) price means that the $90 subscription is now worthless to me as I could care less about their articles and most of their other data.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Sigh.I think the amount of time I spent on their website over the past 12 months considering their data would have been worth 90 dollars.Unfortunately, that premium subscription cost will not include access to specific player participation numbers. The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

which you just expense out to footballguys and e-mail borbely your log in --- problem solved.also, e-mail it to me, plz, for coming up with the idea.

 

[turnit643]

Best of luck to them.

If I could add one more ... Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

 

[Jestefarean]

To bad. Was a great site but like others $90 would be hard and $1400 is out of reach. Oh well...

 

[johnnyboy8102]

I found out the other day when I tried to go there. I was livid.

The ratings, play participation logs, targets, times thrown at for defensive players, etc.....It was a great tool...Too bad.

 

[Ysatnaf_Gnik]

The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

Wow. I was even considering the $90 subscription....but this is just insane....thank you, but I'm done with PFF.

 

[Maggot Brain]

The cost for player participation data for all 32 teams is 1400 dollars per year.

Wow. I was even considering the $90 subscription....but this is just insane....thank you, but I'm done with PFF.

Same here. My leagues are mainly IDP and PFF was a major tool in assessing my weekly starters. The player participation info was great.....$90?definitely leaning towards taking the plunge......$1400 no way

 

[Jeff Haseley]

I know a few of the guys that write for them. I wonder if I can get a discount? I wonder if they can get a discount?

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

I know a few of the guys that write for them. I wonder if I can get a discount? I wonder if they can get a discount?

Sorry, Jeff, but unless you're writing for us, can't give you free/discounted access Which reminds me, our writers do, in fact, get 100% access to all PFF stats and Participation data for free to use in articles. As you can see from the new site, there are already tons of articles posted and more go up on a daily basis. You might not be able to get to the stats without paying a few bucks, but the articles that use the data are 100% free. I will say this though - at least on the fantasy site - we are working on trying to get some more talented IDP writers on board.

That all being said, I hope to see all of you guys on the site. PFF is only 2 years old and certainly has data you can't find anywhere else (at least this cheap). Good luck this season, guys

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

$1400?

I guess PFF won't be around much longer. Sad times.

 

[HellToupee]

I know a few of the guys that write for them. I wonder if I can get a discount? I wonder if they can get a discount?

- we are working on trying to get some more talented IDP writers on board.

should've been done before such a huge spike in the price

 

[Jene Bramel]

I know a few of the guys that write for them. I wonder if I can get a discount? I wonder if they can get a discount?

Sorry, Jeff, but unless you're writing for us, can't give you free/discounted access Which reminds me, our writers do, in fact, get 100% access to all PFF stats and Participation data for free to use in articles. As you can see from the new site, there are already tons of articles posted and more go up on a daily basis. You might not be able to get to the stats without paying a few bucks, but the articles that use the data are 100% free. I will say this though - at least on the fantasy site - we are working on trying to get some more talented IDP writers on board.

That all being said, I hope to see all of you guys on the site. PFF is only 2 years old and certainly has data you can't find anywhere else (at least this cheap). Good luck this season, guys

To be sure, there's lots of great information at PFF. This community was at the forefront of those pimping the content over the past two seasons. And much of it is available with the $90 subscription, a cost that's really not out of line for the amount of data provided. It's just disappointing that the player participation logs have been put so far out of reach of the common football fan.Best of luck with your new endeavors. We less talented writers and fans will find a way to manage after having our participation log "blankie" taken away.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Steelers Depot has player participation logs for the Steelers, I can't imagine theyre the only ones to take on the task for one team.

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

Let me clarify, we're looking for additional writers for Fantasy IDP content. This has zero impact on what is available by paid subscription. You do not (at least yet) get any additional articles by paying the fee. What you get is access to the stats and PP data you can't get anywhere else...well...at least this cheap.

And, yes, there are other sites that offer similar statistics. However, they are all way more expensive and offer less in the package. Hopefully, you guys re-consider. hope to see you around. Take care.

Edit: One more thing, the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010. The stats, ratings, etc. are all all available for 1 full year for $90..and it is free until 8/31

 

[Jeff Haseley]

I know a few of the guys that write for them. I wonder if I can get a discount? I wonder if they can get a discount?

Sorry, Jeff, but unless you're writing for us, can't give you free/discounted access Which reminds me, our writers do, in fact, get 100% access to all PFF stats and Participation data for free to use in articles. As you can see from the new site, there are already tons of articles posted and more go up on a daily basis. You might not be able to get to the stats without paying a few bucks, but the articles that use the data are 100% free. I will say this though - at least on the fantasy site - we are working on trying to get some more talented IDP writers on board.

That all being said, I hope to see all of you guys on the site. PFF is only 2 years old and certainly has data you can't find anywhere else (at least this cheap). Good luck this season, guys

Mike - You have assembled a good group of writers already and I'm looking forward to reading more of their articles, especially those based on the data/stats the site provides and compiles. I'm a big fan of the site. It's a massive process you guys do over there. Keep up the good work.

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

I really appreciate that, Jeff. Thanks.

You guys are currently the best when it comes to Fantasy Football. You know we'll be working hard to catch you

 

[Anthony Borbely]

the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010.

Unfortunately, this is the most important thing to many people (especially on the IDP side) and you priced everyone out of it. I realize the price is justifiable when you consider the amount of time spent on this and you guys do a great job with them, but I can't imagine fantasy football players spending $1400 on it.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010.

Unfortunately, this is the most important thing to many people (especially on the IDP side) and you priced everyone out of it. I realize the price is justifiable when you consider the amount of time spent on this and you guys do a great job with them, but I can't imagine fantasy football players spending $1400 on it.

Insane.

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010.

Unfortunately, this is the most important thing to many people (especially on the IDP side) and you priced everyone out of it. I realize the price is justifiable when you consider the amount of time spent on this and you guys do a great job with them, but I can't imagine fantasy football players spending $1400 on it.

Insane.

Just to quick put this in perspective.There are 267 games played in an NFL Regular Season + Postseason. It takes 16 hours to fully analyze 1 game. That is 4,272 hours. We charge $1,400 for all of that data. That is $3.05 / hour.I understand why the average person wouldn't pay $1,400, but I hope you guys at least understand WHY the site needs to charge. That is a ton of hours!

 

[bucsbaby]

That is $3.05 / hour

It's actually $0.3277/hr--per purchase. There are more hrs than dollars, so it can't be more than 1$/hr. If you were to charge $100, it would be $0.0234/hr per purchase.

If you had 100 people pay the $1400, you would get 100x.3277/hr or $32.77/hr.

If you had 1400 people pay $100, you would get 1400x.0234/hr or $32.76/hr.

So, it would just come down to how many purchases at $1400 you would be likely to get vs. how many you would get at a lesser price.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I'm a huge fan of PFF and will continue to read the articles, but this feels like a huge loss to the fantasy community and to IDP owners in particular.

Can't believe there isn't a better way such as partnering up with a larger website. I honestly can't imagine anyone paying $1400. As Jene said, this feels a lot like what Stats, Inc. used to do where everything was priced so high that no normal person would ever even consider purchasing it. Seems to kind of defeat the purpose of compiling all these participation logs if nobody can see or use them. Personally, I wouldn't want to spend 16 hours logging a game if only a handful of people were going to see the data afterwards.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010.

Unfortunately, this is the most important thing to many people (especially on the IDP side) and you priced everyone out of it. I realize the price is justifiable when you consider the amount of time spent on this and you guys do a great job with them, but I can't imagine fantasy football players spending $1400 on it.

Insane.

Just to quick put this in perspective.There are 267 games played in an NFL Regular Season + Postseason. It takes 16 hours to fully analyze 1 game. That is 4,272 hours. We charge $1,400 for all of that data. That is $3.05 / hour.I understand why the average person wouldn't pay $1,400, but I hope you guys at least understand WHY the site needs to charge. That is a ton of hours!

personally, I understand 100% why you're charging for your labor, and it's an awesome site --- it's really too bad you've drawn so much ire and so many snarky comments for no longer working for free.I'm sure most of those that are outraged would probably balk at stopping by your house on the weekend and mowing your lawn for free.that said, it IS a sad day that I can no longer freeload all your cool content, but how you price your labor is entirely your business, and I sincerely wish you guys great success.but if you decide to just give it away and convince footballguys to foot the bill with a couple ad banners, I'd be cool with that, too.

 

[kurtrudder]

the only thing that costs $1400 is the Participation data for 2010.

Unfortunately, this is the most important thing to many people (especially on the IDP side) and you priced everyone out of it. I realize the price is justifiable when you consider the amount of time spent on this and you guys do a great job with them, but I can't imagine fantasy football players spending $1400 on it.

Insane.

Just to quick put this in perspective.There are 267 games played in an NFL Regular Season + Postseason. It takes 16 hours to fully analyze 1 game. That is 4,272 hours. We charge $1,400 for all of that data. That is $3.05 / hour.I understand why the average person wouldn't pay $1,400, but I hope you guys at least understand WHY the site needs to charge. That is a ton of hours!

personally, I understand 100% why you're charging for your labor, and it's an awesome site --- it's really too bad you've drawn so much ire and so many snarky comments for no longer working for free.I'm sure most of those that are outraged would probably balk at stopping by your house on the weekend and mowing your lawn for free.that said, it IS a sad day that I can no longer freeload all your cool content, but how you price your labor is entirely your business, and I sincerely wish you guys great success.but if you decide to just give it away and convince footballguys to foot the bill with a couple ad banners, I'd be cool with that, too.

KAL, I think your missing the point of most of the posts here. People understand why it can't be free anymore. The Player Participation stats were easily the most important and best tool for FF. It's this set of data which has been priced out of the range of pretty much every FF player. Like so many people here said, they would have considered paying the $90 if the PP data was included....because the PP data is that good and worthwhile. Obviously PFF are hoping to get NFL scouts or teams on board because who else is going to pay $1400 for the PP data?If there was a more realistic pricing structure for the PP data, PFF would make so much more money from this because they would get the quantity of subscribers. Instead they are looking for quality of subscribers and an untold number of internet start ups and businesses have already learned the hard way by making this mistake.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I am curious....how was the $1,400 per year determined and who are you targetting to think that many people will even spend that?

 

[tomthumb333]

I am curious....how was the $1,400 per year determined and who are you targetting to think that many people will even spend that?

Yes, I will second that request who are these corporations? I know its not likely to be answered but how are sales going so far?

 

[turnit643]

I am curious....how was the $1,400 per year determined ...

Buy 7 NFL divisions and we'll throw in the 8th for FREE!!

 

[RookieBlitz]

Mike - You have assembled a good group of writers already and I'm looking forward to reading more of their articles, especially those based on the data/stats the site provides and compiles. I'm a big fan of the site. It's a massive process you guys do over there. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the kind words Jeff. A lot of mutual respect going both ways.

 

[IAMCANADIAN]

Unsure why my last reply got "sensored" but I'll say it again. It was a good website while it lasted... however, this stance will leave me deleting it from my bookmarks.

My .02

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

Price is $50/team with a $200 discount for buying all 32 teams.

Note that you can still get most of the stats for the $90. It's only the participation data that is a bit pricey.

Of course, PFF writers get full access to the PP data, so don't be surprised if it shows up in articles throughout the week...in both the Fantasy and "main" sections.

 

[HellToupee]

Price is $50/team with a $200 discount for buying all 32 teams.

or $1400 AFTER the discount

 

[Zoomanji]

Price is $50/team with a $200 discount for buying all 32 teams.Note that you can still get most of the stats for the $90. It's only the participation data that is a bit pricey.Of course, PFF writers get full access to the PP data, so don't be surprised if it shows up in articles throughout the week...in both the Fantasy and "main" sections.

I think the Participation Data was the main reason people here used the website at all. I know I never looked at many articles

 

[massraider]

Price is $50/team with a $200 discount for buying all 32 teams.Note that you can still get most of the stats for the $90. It's only the participation data that is a bit pricey.Of course, PFF writers get full access to the PP data, so don't be surprised if it shows up in articles throughout the week...in both the Fantasy and "main" sections.

I think the Participation Data was the main reason people here used the website at all. I know I never looked at many articles

They had articles?So for 30-whatever bucks a year, I get full access to everything FBG has to offer. And for 3 times that amount, I get no access to the one feature that made ProFootballFocus interesting and valuable. Do I have that right?

 

[PFF_MikeClay]

Price is $50/team with a $200 discount for buying all 32 teams.Note that you can still get most of the stats for the $90. It's only the participation data that is a bit pricey.Of course, PFF writers get full access to the PP data, so don't be surprised if it shows up in articles throughout the week...in both the Fantasy and "main" sections.

I think the Participation Data was the main reason people here used the website at all. I know I never looked at many articles

They had articles?So for 30-whatever bucks a year, I get full access to everything FBG has to offer. And for 3 times that amount, I get no access to the one feature that made ProFootballFocus interesting and valuable. Do I have that right?

I'll try to be more clear.PFF did not have articles before. They do now. They also have a Fantasy section.Although you can no longer get the raw Participation Data, you'll find it come up a lot in the articles...which are free.Hope that helps.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

what is included in the $90 fee? I think I only really looked at the participation logs before so it seems odd that those are specifically excluded.

 

[Jene Bramel]

what is included in the $90 fee? I think I only really looked at the participation logs before so it seems odd that those are specifically excluded.

Right, I was about to note that there's plenty of good stuff included in the $90 dollar bundle.To be fair, the only thing we'll be missing here is the alignments and game situations where each player's snaps occurred. We'll still have access to snap counts, snap percentages and lots of good stats (I really like looking at the OL and DL pressure stats) to compare with the NFL stat crew data and as confirmation for what we're seeing while we watch the games. That may be worth the 90 bucks for some of us and I'm still considering a subscription.However, losing the player logs is a huge deal. They were a big part of understanding the PFF process and a much bigger draw than any of the articles (well written though they were) or ratings. Liken them to a crutch and you've missed the point of how many football fans used them, especially those who watched the games before checking the logs.It seems plain that the high fee to access the participation logs has at least somewhat to do with keeping them in house for the primary use of the PFF writers rather than having others reference them. At least that seems to be the running theme in this thread -- we'll have more articles (free, including fantasy based) and the PP logs will be heavily featured so it's no big deal that the bulk of our audience cannot access the data itself.And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. The data is very labor intensive, available in few other outlets and very likely generated the most page views. I'm certain that the vast majority of us knew that PFF would move toward a subscription model soon. We've been extremely supportive in emails, posts and columns. Many were ready to pay 90 bucks for the data, which is far from an insignificant cost when compared to most non-league fees related to this internet hobby.Frankly, I'd be shocked if Neil hasn't seen push back from other outlets and regular readers about the 50/1400 dollar model. I think you've underestimated the importance of transparency of process to the audience you're reaching.FootballOutsiders publishes much of its game charting data in a 21 dollar book every summer. It's game charting data are available to all at $60 a season. There's clearly something to be said for having some of the details available within a week and in a more usable format, but I can see the data and process behind their conclusions without ponying up well over a grand. At FBG, the projections that drive our rankings and tools are available without an extra fee. Folks can draw their own conclusions from the data.I think the articles will be a tremendous addition to your site and I think the first group this past week show lots of promise. But I think the business plan and marketing slant miss some of the above points. Your readers may become interested in the articles. Like FO (DVOA, etc) and KC Joyner (CB/WR discussion), your ratings give you something valuable to approach the media with. But I think those logs were the primary draw for much of your common fan audience.Again, best of luck with the site and we certainly appreciate your willingness to address concerns in our Forum.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

what is included in the $90 fee? I think I only really looked at the participation logs before so it seems odd that those are specifically excluded.

go over there and reg for a free look through the end of the month.

 

[GridironMenace]

That is $3.05 / hour

It's actually $0.3277/hr--per purchase. There are more hrs than dollars, so it can't be more than 1$/hr. If you were to charge $100, it would be $0.0234/hr per purchase.

If you had 100 people pay the $1400, you would get 100x.3277/hr or $32.77/hr.

If you had 1400 people pay $100, you would get 1400x.0234/hr or $32.76/hr.

So, it would just come down to how many purchases at $1400 you would be likely to get vs. how many you would get at a lesser price.

This post has been overlooked. Mike states that the $1400 subscription only pays $3.05/hr. What he left out was that EACH subscriber pays $3.05/hr. That is why the $1400 figure is an insane number and the mere fact that PFF thinks they'll survive with that number shows how out of touch they are. Clearly, they are trying to work the subscriber quality (perhaps NFL coordinator) vs. subscriber quantity (everyday FF player). I wish you guys luck, but I have to believe it will take this 1 season to see that PFF will have a limited life expectancy if the model doesn't DRASTICALLY change starting in 2011.

 

[GridironMenace]

MikeClay- Can you please comment on what demographic the $1400 package is geared towards? Also, I know you said that it is $50/team (along with a $200 discount) that got you guys to that $1400 number, however, was any analysis done by an outside consulting company, to predict revenue after implementing this new strategy?