Pujols an Angel (1 Viewer)

[Fiddles]

From zero to $254 million, how the Pujols deal got done

 

[WalrusMan]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

 

[proninja]

Wow, guess it was all about the money.

Wow, guess it was all about the money.

The guy had a wild hair up his #### about the Cards organization mistreating him for sometime. Sorry they only paid you $104 million in your career, you #####.

Wow, guess it was all about the money.

The Angels are a great organization that's committed to winning and in a great market. So, that's a little unfair to say.Pujols went to an equally good situation, for better money, and in a city/state that very well might be more desirable for him (it would be for alot of people).I have no idea how anyone could find fault with that.

He just went to the highest bidder. I won't hold it against him, but that's what happened.

Unreal, Pujols really was just about the money

All of you realize that he didn't take the highest offer on the table, right? I mean, of course you don't, because if you did know that you wouldn't make such ridiculous, provably false statetments, right? Right?

Or maybe we posted before details of the Marlins $275 offer came out. I didn't hear about that offer until after he had already signed with teh Angels.

Either way, you had no idea what you were talking about

 

[Daywalker]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

Everyone so preoccupied with the years. If it was 8/240 no one would blink an eye. Arod at 32mill/per. R. Howard and C.C. at 25mill/per. Pujols for 30mill/per is a bargain. Instead all we hear is, "Oh my god he'll be 41."

 

[Michael Brown]

Still in shock that he's an Angel. I mean, Pujols IS the Cardinals...more than any other player is their team even more than Jeter with the Yankees. I just can't believe Saint Loo couldn't find a way to get this done. Unreal...I feel bad for Cardinals fans, you guys deserved to have him as a lifer. Can't blame the guy for taking all that moolah, but man how can the team shell out all those big bucks for Holliday and then tighten up on Albert?

Wow.

 

[Daywalker]

Still in shock that he's an Angel. I mean, Pujols IS the Cardinals...more than any other player is their team even more than Jeter with the Yankees. I just can't believe Saint Loo couldn't find a way to get this done. Unreal...I feel bad for Cardinals fans, you guys deserved to have him as a lifer. Can't blame the guy for taking all that moolah, but man how can the team shell out all those big bucks for Holliday and then tighten up on Albert?Wow.

You just can't let him walk. Not like the Yanks or Boston were in there with a 9/280 deal either making Pujols the highest paid player in the game.Seems like the Cards were not that serious about signing him. 9/200 is a joke if that was their best offer.I'd be livid if I was a Cards fan. Get to watch the best player of his generation kill it for the next 5-6 years then see him reach all those milestones at the end. Management threw all that away for really like 25-30mill which other teams were willing to pay. You got your rings don't you want to enjoy the second half of Pujols' career? You wouldn't trade 2-3 awful seasons at the back-end of his contract for 5-6 excellent seasons as well as him retiring as a Cardinal. The more I think about it the more insane it is. You don't let a legend walk.Crazy that Miami and the Angels value Pujols more.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Give me a break. If yanks and boston in the market he would have gotten 8/240. Both teams probably kicking themselves and glad neither got him.

Give me a break, mentioning those 2 teams is a waste of keyboarding. The Yankees are already old, they don't need to add another star on the wrong side of 30....er.....34. Plus they have enough bad contracts to worry about. And Boston can ignore their offense this offseason, but maybe should be players for some FA pitching....or trade for some pitching, because their pitching is going to blow. And their new manager is a total doosh.

My point is both teams would rather have Pujols at his salary then their current 1B

. Not that they should have been in on the Pujols bidding. Although a case could be made for the Yanks. They are more of a TV network then a franchise. Why not get the #1 star?

Are you kidding?Gonzalez had a WAR 1.5 higher than Pujols in 2011, he'll be 29 to start the 2012 season as compared to 32, he's signed for $4 million less annually and the contract expires when he's 36 (Pujols' goes through age 41).

Teixiera had a WAR about a win lower than Pujols in 2011, he's the same age as Pujols (maybe), he's signed for $3 million less annually and the contract expires when he's 36.

Neither Teixiera or Gonzalez has been to the DL in many years. Their teams don't need marketing help. If for some reason either team was masochistic and wanted to extend their 1B through age 41 they could do so at a significant discount from their current contract AAV right now.

There is not a chance in a world either team would trade their 1B for Pujols straight up. If he was offered the Red Sox would laugh the Angels out of the room. The Yankees might not, but that's only because they really don't care about money the way everyone else has to.

I just don't agree that Gonzalez and Texeira are the impact hitters that Pujols is. Take into account Pujols post-season prowess and I don't think it's close. He's even more valuable to teams like the Yanks/Bosox who normally make the playoffs every year.

thinking the sox or yanks wouldnt take pujols over their 1b is laughable

No, the fact that you think there's such a thing as good or bad playoff hitters is laughable.It's a small sample size, nothing more. Whatever you are in the regular season is what you are in the playoffs.

Like I said, the Yankees might think about it because paying a fading DH $130 million over 5 years is no big deal to them, plus Tex isn't quite as good as Gonzo, but the Red Sox would absolutely laugh them out of the room. And the Yankees would find it ridiculous if they were anyone but the Yankees.

Pujols is the best hitter in the league, but this isn't basketball. The greatest 1B is history is worth a couple extra wins a year at best over a perennial all-star type 1B. That's not worth the extra money and the five extra years, not even close.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

Everyone so preoccupied with the years. If it was 8/240 no one would blink an eye. Arod at 32mill/per. R. Howard and C.C. at 25mill/per. Pujols for 30mill/per is a bargain. Instead all we hear is, "Oh my god he'll be 41."

You realize that the Howard and A-Rod deals are already a league-wide joke, and they have many years left on them, right? Maybe not the best analogy?

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

Everyone so preoccupied with the years. If it was 8/240 no one would blink an eye. Arod at 32mill/per. R. Howard and C.C. at 25mill/per. Pujols for 30mill/per is a bargain. Instead all we hear is, "Oh my god he'll be 41."

You realize that the Howard and A-Rod deals are already a league-wide joke, and they have many years left on them, right? Maybe not the best analogy?

You couldnt be further from the truth regarding Howard. Just last year everyone "knew" it was to much money and "knew" he was overpaid....and yesterday everyone knew Ruben did a hell of a job and that his deal was just. Pujols got 2 Howard contracts in one. Also, given the length of Albert's deal that would have surely extended the length of Howard's deal as well. At this point next season Howard will probably be considered underpaid.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

Everyone so preoccupied with the years. If it was 8/240 no one would blink an eye. Arod at 32mill/per. R. Howard and C.C. at 25mill/per. Pujols for 30mill/per is a bargain. Instead all we hear is, "Oh my god he'll be 41."

You realize that the Howard and A-Rod deals are already a league-wide joke, and they have many years left on them, right? Maybe not the best analogy?

You couldnt be further from the truth regarding Howard. Just last year everyone "knew" it was to much money and "knew" he was overpaid....and yesterday everyone knew Ruben did a hell of a job and that his deal was just. Pujols got 2 Howard contracts in one. Also, given the length of Albert's deal that would have surely extended the length of Howard's deal as well. At this point next season Howard will probably be considered underpaid.

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

 

[boubucarow]

Still in shock that he's an Angel. I mean, Pujols IS the Cardinals...more than any other player is their team even more than Jeter with the Yankees. I just can't believe Saint Loo couldn't find a way to get this done. Unreal...I feel bad for Cardinals fans, you guys deserved to have him as a lifer. Can't blame the guy for taking all that moolah, but man how can the team shell out all those big bucks for Holliday and then tighten up on Albert?Wow.

It seems to me the Cardinals saw the writing on the wall a few years ago and decided to ride out his last contract. They just don't see giving that much money to one player no matter how good he is.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

Maybe I confused you with thinking I agreed with another poster. I was talking specifically about you insinuating that Howard's contract was known by all (or many) as a bad deal when in fact it isnt. At that time it may have been but as we all know the times change. As I said before, this time next season (or maybe even after Prince signs) the Howard deal will start to look like a bad deal for him. It's already beginning to with these 10-year deals. Howard's injury wasn't as bad as initially thought and he should be back well before the all-star break. Time will only tell about Albert's deal. Right now it looks bad but I'm not the one paying him, or a fan of the Angels. From where I sit they have one (if not the best) pitching staffs in the AL along with what looks like a very complete line-up. Tony Larrusa was on Mike and Mike this morning and had some very interesting point about Albert and why this wasn't a bad deal. The guys doesnt drink or smoke and apparenlty is a work out warrior. He already had a big deal before and still never slacked from working hard and playing through injuries. Also going to the AL will allow him to take "days off" by DH'ing. It's very concievable he can play at a very high level for more then half of that deal.It's about winning and the Angles are in a much better position now. Who knows what the future holds and who cares about the money he got if its not you paying him?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?

At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

Maybe I confused you with thinking I agreed with another poster. I was talking specifically about you insinuating that Howard's contract was known by all (or many) as a bad deal when in fact it isnt. At that time it may have been but as we all know the times change. As I said before, this time next season (or maybe even after Prince signs) the Howard deal will start to look like a bad deal for him. It's already beginning to with these 10-year deals. Howard's injury wasn't as bad as initially thought and he should be back well before the all-star break.

Time will only tell about Albert's deal. Right now it looks bad but I'm not the one paying him, or a fan of the Angels. From where I sit they have one (if not the best) pitching staffs in the AL along with what looks like a very complete line-up. Tony Larrusa was on Mike and Mike this morning and had some very interesting point about Albert and why this wasn't a bad deal. The guys doesnt drink or smoke and apparenlty is a work out warrior. He already had a big deal before and still never slacked from working hard and playing through injuries. Also going to the AL will allow him to take "days off" by DH'ing. It's very concievable he can play at a very high level for more then half of that deal.

It's about winning and the Angles are in a much better position now. Who knows what the future holds and who cares about the money he got if its not you paying him?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a Phillies fan.I literally have not read a single column, heard a single podcast or even read a single tweet from a reputable source that thinks that the Howard extension is anything other than a total disaster. I'm sure you want to pretend that 2006-2009 Howard, the guy with the WAR reliably in the 4-6 range and the OPS+ in the 140-160 range, is going to magically reappear, at age 33, after two seasons of a WAR in the 1-2 range and a OPS+ in the 120s followed by a nine-month injury. But that's simply not how the human body works. The Phillies most likely will be paying about $12.5 million per win over replacement for the life of this deal ... if he stays healthy and plays at his 2011 levels, which seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure that the Pujols deal won't change the market to the point where wins over replacement are valued at $12.5 million per.

 

[gianmarco]

Starting to hear more sentiment here in the St. Louis area that this is much more on the Cardinals than it is on Pujols. I definitely agree.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?

At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

Maybe I confused you with thinking I agreed with another poster. I was talking specifically about you insinuating that Howard's contract was known by all (or many) as a bad deal when in fact it isnt. At that time it may have been but as we all know the times change. As I said before, this time next season (or maybe even after Prince signs) the Howard deal will start to look like a bad deal for him. It's already beginning to with these 10-year deals. Howard's injury wasn't as bad as initially thought and he should be back well before the all-star break.

Time will only tell about Albert's deal. Right now it looks bad but I'm not the one paying him, or a fan of the Angels. From where I sit they have one (if not the best) pitching staffs in the AL along with what looks like a very complete line-up. Tony Larrusa was on Mike and Mike this morning and had some very interesting point about Albert and why this wasn't a bad deal. The guys doesnt drink or smoke and apparenlty is a work out warrior. He already had a big deal before and still never slacked from working hard and playing through injuries. Also going to the AL will allow him to take "days off" by DH'ing. It's very concievable he can play at a very high level for more then half of that deal.

It's about winning and the Angles are in a much better position now. Who knows what the future holds and who cares about the money he got if its not you paying him?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a Phillies fan.I literally have not read a single column, heard a single podcast or even read a single tweet from a reputable source that thinks that the Howard extension is anything other than a total disaster. I'm sure you want to pretend that 2006-2009 Howard, the guy with the WAR reliably in the 4-6 range and the OPS+ in the 140-160 range, is going to magically reappear, at age 33, after two seasons of a WAR in the 1-2 range and a OPS+ in the 120s followed by a nine-month injury. But that's simply not how the human body works. The Phillies most likely will be paying about $12.5 million per win over replacement for the life of this deal ... if he stays healthy and plays at his 2011 levels, which seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure that the Pujols deal won't change the market to the point where wins over replacement are valued at $12.5 million per.

You would be correct.

As previously stated how deals are viewed will change with the times and they're only as bad as the next deal given. While I dont expect him to come back to 2006-2009 seasons but I see no reason why he can't split the difference of that time and the past 2 seasons. Would you honestly be shocked to see him go for .255-.260 37-38 HR's and 120-125 RBI's for the next 2-3 seasons? I wouldnt.

I guess we'll see but I'd rather have him then risk not having him especially since I'm not paying them.

 

[oso diablo]

the Howard deal was horrendous at the time of signing, and the only major change since then is that he's had a major injury. it's still a horrendous deal.

 

[Eephus]

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?

At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

Maybe I confused you with thinking I agreed with another poster. I was talking specifically about you insinuating that Howard's contract was known by all (or many) as a bad deal when in fact it isnt. At that time it may have been but as we all know the times change. As I said before, this time next season (or maybe even after Prince signs) the Howard deal will start to look like a bad deal for him. It's already beginning to with these 10-year deals. Howard's injury wasn't as bad as initially thought and he should be back well before the all-star break.

Time will only tell about Albert's deal. Right now it looks bad but I'm not the one paying him, or a fan of the Angels. From where I sit they have one (if not the best) pitching staffs in the AL along with what looks like a very complete line-up. Tony Larrusa was on Mike and Mike this morning and had some very interesting point about Albert and why this wasn't a bad deal. The guys doesnt drink or smoke and apparenlty is a work out warrior. He already had a big deal before and still never slacked from working hard and playing through injuries. Also going to the AL will allow him to take "days off" by DH'ing. It's very concievable he can play at a very high level for more then half of that deal.

It's about winning and the Angles are in a much better position now. Who knows what the future holds and who cares about the money he got if its not you paying him?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a Phillies fan.I literally have not read a single column, heard a single podcast or even read a single tweet from a reputable source that thinks that the Howard extension is anything other than a total disaster. I'm sure you want to pretend that 2006-2009 Howard, the guy with the WAR reliably in the 4-6 range and the OPS+ in the 140-160 range, is going to magically reappear, at age 33, after two seasons of a WAR in the 1-2 range and a OPS+ in the 120s followed by a nine-month injury. But that's simply not how the human body works. The Phillies most likely will be paying about $12.5 million per win over replacement for the life of this deal ... if he stays healthy and plays at his 2011 levels, which seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure that the Pujols deal won't change the market to the point where wins over replacement are valued at $12.5 million per.

You would be correct.

As previously stated how deals are viewed will change with the times and they're only as bad as the next deal given. While I dont expect him to come back to 2006-2009 seasons but I see no reason why he can't split the difference of that time and the past 2 seasons. Would you honestly be shocked to see him go for .255-.260 37-38 HR's and 120-125 RBI's for the next 2-3 seasons? I wouldnt.

That's roughly 10% better than his 2011 season. It wouldn't shock me to see him put up a season like that or even top 40 HRs again. But it also wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him to turn into Mark Reynolds. In either case, that's not worth $25M.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

That's roughly 10% better than his 2011 season. It wouldn't shock me to see him put up a season like that or even top 40 HRs again. But it also wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him to turn into Mark Reynolds. In either case, that's not worth $25M.

Worth to who? That's the key. At the time we signed him to that deal there was NO reason to risk letting him hit the open market. We have the money and the need for his bat. He was worth that to the Phillies.I would be a bit shocked to see him Reynolds type of bad too.

 

[ffldrew]

I am going to say he had a better chance of winning championships in St. Louis - if he had stayed - for the next 3-4 years. Pitching wise the Cards were going to get Wainwright back along with Carpenter and a young Garcia. A lineup that would have had Pujols, Holliday and Berkman - in a weak Central Division equals big favorites. Only the Phillies would have stood in the way as a roadblock to the WS - IMO. Over in the AL he has to go through Texas(maybe), NYY and BOS(for sure) - most likely year in and out in these next 4 years to get to a WS and that will be tough even on as much as the Angels have improved. But his value as a "new" player in creating new revenues in Orange County and the DH angle - made the ROI easier for the Angels at 254 vs 210/225 the Cards would have offered.

As a Cardinal fan I think he blew it - he could have stayed for 3 to 4 million a year less - wins 2 more WS possibly and he cements his status as the Greatest Cardinal of All Time. I'm sorry but I don't know who that is for the Angels? And does SoCal really care about the Angels when the going gets tough? But all of us know who the Cardinal greats are - the 2nd best franchise in the history of baseball and 100+ years of tradition - in the end that would have been worth taking a bit less to walk away with that title.

Yesterday I was traveling home from Dallas and Peter Gammons and Harold Reynolds were going through security at the same time - I struck up a pretty good conversation with Gammons(dude loves to talk) - he felt the original drafting snub chip on his shoulder and the contract snub last year sent him over the top to take the Angel deal.He also thought every one in St Louis was pissed - I told him my informal Facebook poll as 2 out of 3 wishing Albert the best. I asked about Hanley Ramirez and if the Cards could have a shot - I think the Cards should go after him -we discussed what it would take - we thought it might take Garcia and some prospects. I'd pull the trigger on that.Harold Reynolds seemed to agree .

 

[Eephus]

That's roughly 10% better than his 2011 season. It wouldn't shock me to see him put up a season like that or even top 40 HRs again. But it also wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him to turn into Mark Reynolds. In either case, that's not worth $25M.

Worth to who? That's the key. At the time we signed him to that deal there was NO reason to risk letting him hit the open market. We have the money and the need for his bat. He was worth that to the Phillies.

There was no reason to do the extension when they did. Even without the injury, they would have been better off competing in the Pujols/Fielder derby. The Phillies are a big revenue team so they can handle Howard's bad contract without it limiting their flexibility too much. But it's conceivable that Howard will put up a 6 WAR season that would justify that kind of money.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

That's roughly 10% better than his 2011 season. It wouldn't shock me to see him put up a season like that or even top 40 HRs again. But it also wouldn't surprise me a bit to see him to turn into Mark Reynolds. In either case, that's not worth $25M.

Worth to who? That's the key. At the time we signed him to that deal there was NO reason to risk letting him hit the open market. We have the money and the need for his bat. He was worth that to the Phillies.

There was no reason to do the extension when they did. Even without the injury, they would have been better off competing in the Pujols/Fielder derby. The Phillies are a big revenue team so they can handle Howard's bad contract without it limiting their flexibility too much. But it's conceivable that Howard will put up a 6 WAR season that would justify that kind of money.

And I respectfully disagree. You don't want to get into the bidding war that opened up with these guys. Prince's deal will more the likely be much bigger then the deal Howard got and given the condition (or lack of) that he keeps himself in his breakdown will be steep and quick IMHO. I love Albert but not for 10 years here. Howard's deal runs through 2016 and I highly doubt he makes it here that long...had he made it to free agency this off-season you would more then likely pay a lot more because of other teams willingness to offer tons of money-- See Florida for example.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

I am going to say he had a better chance of winning championships in St. Louis - if he had stayed - for the next 3-4 years. Pitching wise the Cards were going to get Wainwright back along with Carpenter and a young Garcia. A lineup that would have had Pujols, Holliday and Berkman - in a weak Central Division equals big favorites. Only the Phillies would have stood in the way as a roadblock to the WS - IMO. Over in the AL he has to go through Texas(maybe), NYY and BOS(for sure) - most likely year in and out in these next 4 years to get to a WS and that will be tough even on as much as the Angels have improved. But his value as a "new" player in creating new revenues in Orange County and the DH angle - made the ROI easier for the Angels at 254 vs 210/225 the Cards would have offered. As a Cardinal fan I think he blew it - he could have stayed for 3 to 4 million a year less - wins 2 more WS possibly and he cements his status as the Greatest Cardinal of All Time. I'm sorry but I don't know who that is for the Angels? And does SoCal really care about the Angels when the going gets tough? But all of us know who the Cardinal greats are - the 2nd best franchise in the history of baseball and 100+ years of tradition - in the end that would have been worth taking a bit less to walk away with that title.Yesterday I was traveling home from Dallas and Peter Gammons and Harold Reynolds were going through security at the same time - I struck up a pretty good conversation with Gammons(dude loves to talk) - he felt the original drafting snub chip on his shoulder and the contract snub last year sent him over the top to take the Angel deal.He also thought every one in St Louis was pissed - I told him my informal Facebook poll as 2 out of 3 wishing Albert the best. I asked about Hanley Ramirez and if the Cards could have a shot - I think the Cards should go after him -we discussed what it would take - we thought it might take Garcia and some prospects. I'd pull the trigger on that.Harold Reynolds seemed to agree .

Hanley has great tools - but clubhouse cancer is a tag he is stuck with. We had to dump Rasmus for this reason and JD Drew never stuck because of this reason. Maybe Hanley is a great guy and is just fed up with Florida - maybe he would turn it around in St Louis...but something about him just doesn't make sense.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?

At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

Maybe I confused you with thinking I agreed with another poster. I was talking specifically about you insinuating that Howard's contract was known by all (or many) as a bad deal when in fact it isnt. At that time it may have been but as we all know the times change. As I said before, this time next season (or maybe even after Prince signs) the Howard deal will start to look like a bad deal for him. It's already beginning to with these 10-year deals. Howard's injury wasn't as bad as initially thought and he should be back well before the all-star break.

Time will only tell about Albert's deal. Right now it looks bad but I'm not the one paying him, or a fan of the Angels. From where I sit they have one (if not the best) pitching staffs in the AL along with what looks like a very complete line-up. Tony Larrusa was on Mike and Mike this morning and had some very interesting point about Albert and why this wasn't a bad deal. The guys doesnt drink or smoke and apparenlty is a work out warrior. He already had a big deal before and still never slacked from working hard and playing through injuries. Also going to the AL will allow him to take "days off" by DH'ing. It's very concievable he can play at a very high level for more then half of that deal.

It's about winning and the Angles are in a much better position now. Who knows what the future holds and who cares about the money he got if its not you paying him?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a Phillies fan.I literally have not read a single column, heard a single podcast or even read a single tweet from a reputable source that thinks that the Howard extension is anything other than a total disaster. I'm sure you want to pretend that 2006-2009 Howard, the guy with the WAR reliably in the 4-6 range and the OPS+ in the 140-160 range, is going to magically reappear, at age 33, after two seasons of a WAR in the 1-2 range and a OPS+ in the 120s followed by a nine-month injury. But that's simply not how the human body works. The Phillies most likely will be paying about $12.5 million per win over replacement for the life of this deal ... if he stays healthy and plays at his 2011 levels, which seems unlikely. I'm pretty sure that the Pujols deal won't change the market to the point where wins over replacement are valued at $12.5 million per.

You would be correct.

As previously stated how deals are viewed will change with the times and they're only as bad as the next deal given. While I dont expect him to come back to 2006-2009 seasons but I see no reason why he can't split the difference of that time and the past 2 seasons. Would you honestly be shocked to see him go for .255-.260 37-38 HR's and 120-125 RBI's for the next 2-3 seasons? I wouldnt.

I guess we'll see but I'd rather have him then risk not having him especially since I'm not paying them.

I would be pretty surprised if he did that. Not shocked, but somewhat surprised.I'd also be surprised if whatever he does over the next 2-3 seasons at the plate isn't accompanied by consistently worsening defense to the point that it becomes a serious liability.

 

[curta269]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

 

[Michael Brown]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

Apparently not just Yankee money, but Marlin and Angel money too. Either way, they gave all that money to Holliday a couple years ago to show Pujols they were serious about keeping a winning team but they forgot to budget for the actual best player on the team. Let's see how Holliday and Berkman fare without AP in the lineup now. It was not a good move by the Cards to hold out. If they did in fact offer $210 million and he signed for $254, then for another $44 million over 10 years they could have kept the franchise in town. They'll lose that much by not having the guy around.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Nothing against C.J. Wilson, who is a fine pitcher, but Pujols doesn't even get his own press conference announcing him as an Angel out there? They lumped him and Wilson into the same one? Yowza.

 

[Wrigley]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

 

[Oh Yes!]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

No kidding. The guy is in the position to provide for his kid's kid's kid's now. 44 million goes a long way. I think he's stupid for passing on the Marlins offer

 

[Daywalker]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

No kidding. The guy is in the position to provide for his kid's kid's kid's now. 44 million goes a long way. I think he's stupid for passing on the Marlins offer

Slow down. The billionaire's who own these teams have kids to feed as well.

 

[Wrigley]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

No kidding. The guy is in the position to provide for his kid's kid's kid's now. 44 million goes a long way. I think he's stupid for passing on the Marlins offer

Slow down. The billionaire's who own these teams have kids to feed as well.

Never thought of that.....thanks.

 

[Brady Marino]

Nothing against C.J. Wilson, who is a fine pitcher, but Pujols doesn't even get his own press conference announcing him as an Angel out there? They lumped him and Wilson into the same one? Yowza.

Oh no, he was "mistreated"!

 

[curta269]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

No kidding. The guy is in the position to provide for his kid's kid's kid's now. 44 million goes a long way. I think he's stupid for passing on the Marlins offer

I'm thinking he passed on the Marlins offer because of the no trade clause. The Marlins do not give these out, and I know why. If fans do not come to the new stadium just like they didn't come to the old one, they can trade everyone off after a year or two and go back to only spending $30-40 million on salary. I'm sure Albert never wants to be traded unless he decides where he wants to go.

 

[Daywalker]

Pujols and his agent told the Cardinals last off season that the bidding started with ARod's last deal, 10 years, $275 million. Yankee money. With the Cardinals holding their self-imposed salary cap to $110 million, they would give over 25% to 1 player. This is not the NBA. You need 30+ guys to contend. They offered 10 years and $210 million. More than a fair deal and more $$ than Pujols and his family can ever spend in a lifetime. His goal was to become the highest paid player at his position and he got it. This is not a good contract and the Cardinals will be better off, in the long run. The next 2-3 years, most likely not. The Cardinals really did make a good offer, and I was concerned about it being 10 years. Way too long for a player who will be 32 this season.

love this argument.

No kidding. The guy is in the position to provide for his kid's kid's kid's now. 44 million goes a long way. I think he's stupid for passing on the Marlins offer

I'm thinking he passed on the Marlins offer because of the no trade clause. The Marlins do not give these out, and I know why. If fans do not come to the new stadium just like they didn't come to the old one, they can trade everyone off after a year or two and go back to only spending $30-40 million on salary. I'm sure Albert never wants to be traded unless he decides where he wants to go.

The no-trade clause and the DH were probably the biggest factors. But I really don't think this was a hard decision for Pujols. Angels came into the negotiations and it was wrapped up very quickly.

 

[Daywalker]

Deal is huge and will not be worth it in its latter years, but Pujols is invaluable for the next 5 years. Honestly, he's probably worth $40 million per year for the next 3-4 years. No team will pay that on a short contract, so they extend the contract out and take the hit down the road. Makes sense to me.

Everyone so preoccupied with the years. If it was 8/240 no one would blink an eye. Arod at 32mill/per. R. Howard and C.C. at 25mill/per. Pujols for 30mill/per is a bargain. Instead all we hear is, "Oh my god he'll be 41."

You realize that the Howard and A-Rod deals are already a league-wide joke, and they have many years left on them, right? Maybe not the best analogy?

You couldnt be further from the truth regarding Howard. Just last year everyone "knew" it was to much money and "knew" he was overpaid....and yesterday everyone knew Ruben did a hell of a job and that his deal was just. Pujols got 2 Howard contracts in one. Also, given the length of Albert's deal that would have surely extended the length of Howard's deal as well. At this point next season Howard will probably be considered underpaid.

Sooo ... one guy argues that Albert's deal is a decent value by comparing to Howard's deal. I point out (rightly) that the Phils are overpaying Howard. And you come back and say that Howard's deal is a actually good one by comparing it to Pujols' deal?At least one of you is obviously wrong, since you just contradicted each other. And considering the fact that Pujols has missed time due to injury each of the last two years, and Howard is probably out most of 2012 due to injury, and that part of the reason I think they're both bad deals is because very large men who play sports have a tendency to get hurt a lot more when they reach their 30s, I think maybe both of you could be wrong.

I thought the Howard signing was a disaster from the start.With so many guys getting deals in the 20-25mill/per now Pujols is clearly worth 30mill/per. Perhaps more. Think it's safe to say that with the Yanks/Red Sox not in the market for a 1B that Pujols' contract is not as big as it could have been. Angels didn't overpay if anything they got a bargain.

Pujols is a draw. FoxSports probably said screw it we need to lock down this TV contract and gave in for that last 50-100mill.

 

[hook014]

I don't come here very often but thought I'd peek in and see the Pujols hubbub. I'm a cardinal fan BTW.

My first impression was disappointment and sadness. I really hoped I wouldn't see a lot of venom from cardinal fans and for the most part they've been restrained. There are always gonna be a segment of a fan base who act like idiots and we have em too. But so far so good.

I went to spring training last year (again) and talked to some cardinal employees who said at the time the big sticking point was the no trade clause. I believed that then and i believe it now. Albert coulda got more from the Marlins but turned it down for the same reason. Like most of us he wanted to get to a certain part of his career and feel like he had some control over his fate. No matter how much money you make it's painful to be cast out of the organization you work for late in your career. With the Angel deal he gets to choose where he's going and how long he's staying, no other deal gave him that including the Cards. When he turned 36 we'd be shopping him to an AL team needing a DH and we all know it. Oh, everyone would deny that now, but in 2016 everyone would be talking about " how it's good for him and the club". No sense in denying it. The NL is a bad place for an older player with bad wheels.

So that Cardinal for life talk is only good if he's willing to retire at 37 or so, and he's not or he would sign a shorter contract.

The thing that a lot of fans have a hard time grasping is the concept of having to pass on deals in the future due to the weight of this contract. The Tino Martinez deal knocked our finances out of order for 2 yrs. We couldnt acquire anyone of note and the fans were verrrry unhappy. 2 yrs felt like forever, but we were looking at 6 yrs of purgatory with this deal and a growing resentment at both the mngmnt and Albert as time wore on. That's just not a good outcome. I had a conversation with my son and told him the only thing scarier than not signing him, was signing him. He's an econ major so he gets it but most fans dont wanna hear about the numbers, too much emotion.

I give Moreno a lot of credit as he was able to tap into Albert's main desire and exploit it. I heard a report this morning that the agent, Lozano, arranged for Albert and his wife to listen in on negotiations via speakerphone with the cardinals without their knowledge. That certainly tipped the scales to the Angels as these types of talks can be bruising to a persons feelings. While this is not exactly illegal it seems unethical. Not to mention that part of the point of having an agent is not having to hear that unpleasant stuff. Just makes having a working relationship in the future too difficult. But it did accomplish what Lozano wanted. So there's that.

Baseball is a small network so Lozano will most certainly have a hard time getting GMs to talk to him on the phone in the future due to this. But he makes 10 mil on the deal so I guess it's a decent tradeoff. I do think at some point Albert is gonna realize he was manipulated to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if he fires the guy. Even if it's the best outcome for Albert no one likes to be manipulated and he's no exception.

Bottom line though is we got 11 yrs of the best guy in the game with 1 NL chmpionshp and 2 WS titles. Gotta appreciate the good times.

 

[curta269]

I don't come here very often but thought I'd peek in and see the Pujols hubbub. I'm a cardinal fan BTW.My first impression was disappointment and sadness. I really hoped I wouldn't see a lot of venom from cardinal fans and for the most part they've been restrained. There are always gonna be a segment of a fan base who act like idiots and we have em too. But so far so good.I went to spring training last year (again) and talked to some cardinal employees who said at the time the big sticking point was the no trade clause. I believed that then and i believe it now. Albert coulda got more from the Marlins but turned it down for the same reason. Like most of us he wanted to get to a certain part of his career and feel like he had some control over his fate. No matter how much money you make it's painful to be cast out of the organization you work for late in your career. With the Angel deal he gets to choose where he's going and how long he's staying, no other deal gave him that including the Cards. When he turned 36 we'd be shopping him to an AL team needing a DH and we all know it. Oh, everyone would deny that now, but in 2016 everyone would be talking about " how it's good for him and the club". No sense in denying it. The NL is a bad place for an older player with bad wheels.So that Cardinal for life talk is only good if he's willing to retire at 37 or so, and he's not or he would sign a shorter contract.The thing that a lot of fans have a hard time grasping is the concept of having to pass on deals in the future due to the weight of this contract. The Tino Martinez deal knocked our finances out of order for 2 yrs. We couldnt acquire anyone of note and the fans were verrrry unhappy. 2 yrs felt like forever, but we were looking at 6 yrs of purgatory with this deal and a growing resentment at both the mngmnt and Albert as time wore on. That's just not a good outcome. I had a conversation with my son and told him the only thing scarier than not signing him, was signing him. He's an econ major so he gets it but most fans dont wanna hear about the numbers, too much emotion.I give Moreno a lot of credit as he was able to tap into Albert's main desire and exploit it. I heard a report this morning that the agent, Lozano, arranged for Albert and his wife to listen in on negotiations via speakerphone with the cardinals without their knowledge. That certainly tipped the scales to the Angels as these types of talks can be bruising to a persons feelings. While this is not exactly illegal it seems unethical. Not to mention that part of the point of having an agent is not having to hear that unpleasant stuff. Just makes having a working relationship in the future too difficult. But it did accomplish what Lozano wanted. So there's that.Baseball is a small network so Lozano will most certainly have a hard time getting GMs to talk to him on the phone in the future due to this. But he makes 10 mil on the deal so I guess it's a decent tradeoff. I do think at some point Albert is gonna realize he was manipulated to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if he fires the guy. Even if it's the best outcome for Albert no one likes to be manipulated and he's no exception.Bottom line though is we got 11 yrs of the best guy in the game with 1 NL chmpionshp and 2 WS titles. Gotta appreciate the good times.

Interesting. Do you have a source for the Lozano negotiations with the Cardinals speaker phone incident?

 

[hook014]

I went back and tried to find it to no avail. Sorry. It was HTH or espn but I've clicked so many links in the last couple of days that it's a needle in a haystack. Doesnt come up on google which kinda surprised me.

It's all water under the bridge now but does color what negotiations with Lozano will be like in the future. Just something to upload to memory.

Really feels strange to not have superman penciled into the lineup at first anymore. It's been such a long run. I think we were looking at 3 more yrs of Albert being Albert at most. So that's the loss. It certainly doesnt look as large from that angle and I've been kinda focusing on that.

We are fortunate to have Berkman at first for 2012, he will probably be there only one year for transition. Then hopefully Matt Adams will be ready to start his major league career without the comparisons. If we can get into the playoffs in the next 2 yrs the fans will be more than ready to move on. Fingers crossed.

 

[Abraham]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

 

[Daywalker]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

 

[Premier]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Extremely weird and entitled interview.

 

[Brady Marino]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Extremely weird and entitled interview.

When she was trying to made a point, she'd get an extreme case of the stutters. I get it, it's hard to justify explaining to a fanbase that's supported your husband for over a decade why you're packing up and leaving.

 

[RnR]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I don't come here very often but thought I'd peek in and see the Pujols hubbub. I'm a cardinal fan BTW.My first impression was disappointment and sadness. I really hoped I wouldn't see a lot of venom from cardinal fans and for the most part they've been restrained. There are always gonna be a segment of a fan base who act like idiots and we have em too. But so far so good.I went to spring training last year (again) and talked to some cardinal employees who said at the time the big sticking point was the no trade clause. I believed that then and i believe it now. Albert coulda got more from the Marlins but turned it down for the same reason. Like most of us he wanted to get to a certain part of his career and feel like he had some control over his fate. No matter how much money you make it's painful to be cast out of the organization you work for late in your career. With the Angel deal he gets to choose where he's going and how long he's staying, no other deal gave him that including the Cards. When he turned 36 we'd be shopping him to an AL team needing a DH and we all know it. Oh, everyone would deny that now, but in 2016 everyone would be talking about " how it's good for him and the club". No sense in denying it. The NL is a bad place for an older player with bad wheels.So that Cardinal for life talk is only good if he's willing to retire at 37 or so, and he's not or he would sign a shorter contract.The thing that a lot of fans have a hard time grasping is the concept of having to pass on deals in the future due to the weight of this contract. The Tino Martinez deal knocked our finances out of order for 2 yrs. We couldnt acquire anyone of note and the fans were verrrry unhappy. 2 yrs felt like forever, but we were looking at 6 yrs of purgatory with this deal and a growing resentment at both the mngmnt and Albert as time wore on. That's just not a good outcome. I had a conversation with my son and told him the only thing scarier than not signing him, was signing him. He's an econ major so he gets it but most fans dont wanna hear about the numbers, too much emotion.I give Moreno a lot of credit as he was able to tap into Albert's main desire and exploit it. I heard a report this morning that the agent, Lozano, arranged for Albert and his wife to listen in on negotiations via speakerphone with the cardinals without their knowledge. That certainly tipped the scales to the Angels as these types of talks can be bruising to a persons feelings. While this is not exactly illegal it seems unethical. Not to mention that part of the point of having an agent is not having to hear that unpleasant stuff. Just makes having a working relationship in the future too difficult. But it did accomplish what Lozano wanted. So there's that.Baseball is a small network so Lozano will most certainly have a hard time getting GMs to talk to him on the phone in the future due to this. But he makes 10 mil on the deal so I guess it's a decent tradeoff. I do think at some point Albert is gonna realize he was manipulated to some extent and I wouldn't be surprised if he fires the guy. Even if it's the best outcome for Albert no one likes to be manipulated and he's no exception.Bottom line though is we got 11 yrs of the best guy in the game with 1 NL chmpionshp and 2 WS titles. Gotta appreciate the good times.

Interesting. Do you have a source for the Lozano negotiations with the Cardinals speaker phone incident?

As long as Lozano gets clients, he'll get teams to talk to him. How has Boras emerged unscathed through the years? Is there a bigger back biting d-bag than him? I understand the faux pas of having Albert sit in, but maybe that would win him clients going forward. If he can survive the deadspin article, the guy is bulletproof.

 

[Daywalker]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

 

[RnR]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

 

[Daywalker]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

Without the Yanks/Red Sox in the market the contract he signed was on the low-end of the spectrum IMO. Reason why a team like Miami could even be in the bidding. No way was going to take an additional 25-30mill less. Cards were fortunate he could have been had at this price.How about the billionaire go the extra-mile not the player you got ridiculous value for over his 11 years? Who is the cheap one? 2 WS rings. Pay the man market value and not leave your fans reeling. 8/240 was about what Pujols was worth. 10/250 is not out of line considering the milestones he'll be hitting during those last few years.I'm sure Pujols did not want to leave St. Louis. What the hell was he suppossed to do though? Cards made it an easy decision.If you are a Cards fan would you really care if the Cards sucked year's 8-10 if that meant you could continue the current success as well as have Pujols retire a Cardinal? No-brainer IMO.

 

[RnR]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

Without the Yanks/Red Sox in the market the contract he signed was on the low-end of the spectrum IMO. Reason why a team like Miami could even be in the bidding. No way was going to take an additional 25-30mill less. Cards were fortunate he could have been had at this price.How about the billionaire go the extra-mile not the player you got ridiculous value for over his 11 years? Who is the cheap one? 2 WS rings. Pay the man market value and not leave your fans reeling. 8/240 was about what Pujols was worth. 10/250 is not out of line considering the milestones he'll be hitting during those last few years.I'm sure Pujols did not want to leave St. Louis. What the hell was he suppossed to do though? Cards made it an easy decision.If you are a Cards fan would you really care if the Cards sucked year's 8-10 if that meant you could continue the current success as well as have Pujols retire a Cardinal? No-brainer IMO.

I'm enough of a baseball addict to understand what you're saying, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that if the man was happy where he was... $210 million for the last 10 years of his career PLAYING A GAME is more than sufficient. We get caught up in what guys are "worth", but these numbers are so big they are hardly relevant. Whether it is $210 million or $254 million is hardly consequential to Albert Pujols in terms of his day-to-day well being. Either way it is one of the richest, long-term contracts in the history of sports. You ask "what the hell was he supposed to do though?"The answer to that is simple: Whatever he feels is right. Just don't expect Cardinals fans to empathize with his decision because in the big scheme of things, its ludicrous. If he wanted to be a "Cardinal for life" like he walked around saying for the better part of a decade, nearly a quarter of a BILLION dollars should be plenty to keep him content.This whole "it wasn't about the money" act he's putting on is insulting to those of us that supported him for the last 11 years. I wasn't mad about it until he started rolling that out there. At least man up and admit you are a bat for hire, just like everyone else. The "different" athlete that he tried to portray himself as is dead, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Daywalker]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

Without the Yanks/Red Sox in the market the contract he signed was on the low-end of the spectrum IMO. Reason why a team like Miami could even be in the bidding. No way was going to take an additional 25-30mill less. Cards were fortunate he could have been had at this price.How about the billionaire go the extra-mile not the player you got ridiculous value for over his 11 years? Who is the cheap one? 2 WS rings. Pay the man market value and not leave your fans reeling. 8/240 was about what Pujols was worth. 10/250 is not out of line considering the milestones he'll be hitting during those last few years.I'm sure Pujols did not want to leave St. Louis. What the hell was he suppossed to do though? Cards made it an easy decision.If you are a Cards fan would you really care if the Cards sucked year's 8-10 if that meant you could continue the current success as well as have Pujols retire a Cardinal? No-brainer IMO.

I'm enough of a baseball addict to understand what you're saying, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that if the man was happy where he was... $210 million for the last 10 years of his career PLAYING A GAME is more than sufficient. We get caught up in what guys are "worth", but these numbers are so big they are hardly relevant. Whether it is $210 million or $254 million is hardly consequential to Albert Pujols in terms of his day-to-day well being. Either way it is one of the richest, long-term contracts in the history of sports. You ask "what the hell was he supposed to do though?"The answer to that is simple: Whatever he feels is right. Just don't expect Cardinals fans to empathize with his decision because in the big scheme of things, its ludicrous. If he wanted to be a "Cardinal for life" like he walked around saying for the better part of a decade, nearly a quarter of a BILLION dollars should be plenty to keep him content.This whole "it wasn't about the money" act he's putting on is insulting to those of us that supported him for the last 11 years. I wasn't mad about it until he started rolling that out there. At least man up and admit you are a bat for hire, just like everyone else. The "different" athlete that he tried to portray himself as is dead, as far as I'm concerned.

So after 11 years of being a ridiculous bargain and 3 WS appearance including 2 rings it was too much for Pujols to except market value? Like I said a market without the Yanks/Red Sox involved.Pujols was suppossed to give a hometown discount and forgo 30+mill so a billionaire owner could reap that? Come on. Just don't get the logic that a millionaire is greedy for wanting market value while the billionaire owner is not despite having reaped such financial rewards over the past 11 years.

 

[RnR]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

Without the Yanks/Red Sox in the market the contract he signed was on the low-end of the spectrum IMO. Reason why a team like Miami could even be in the bidding. No way was going to take an additional 25-30mill less. Cards were fortunate he could have been had at this price.How about the billionaire go the extra-mile not the player you got ridiculous value for over his 11 years? Who is the cheap one? 2 WS rings. Pay the man market value and not leave your fans reeling. 8/240 was about what Pujols was worth. 10/250 is not out of line considering the milestones he'll be hitting during those last few years.I'm sure Pujols did not want to leave St. Louis. What the hell was he suppossed to do though? Cards made it an easy decision.If you are a Cards fan would you really care if the Cards sucked year's 8-10 if that meant you could continue the current success as well as have Pujols retire a Cardinal? No-brainer IMO.

I'm enough of a baseball addict to understand what you're saying, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that if the man was happy where he was... $210 million for the last 10 years of his career PLAYING A GAME is more than sufficient. We get caught up in what guys are "worth", but these numbers are so big they are hardly relevant. Whether it is $210 million or $254 million is hardly consequential to Albert Pujols in terms of his day-to-day well being. Either way it is one of the richest, long-term contracts in the history of sports. You ask "what the hell was he supposed to do though?"The answer to that is simple: Whatever he feels is right. Just don't expect Cardinals fans to empathize with his decision because in the big scheme of things, its ludicrous. If he wanted to be a "Cardinal for life" like he walked around saying for the better part of a decade, nearly a quarter of a BILLION dollars should be plenty to keep him content.This whole "it wasn't about the money" act he's putting on is insulting to those of us that supported him for the last 11 years. I wasn't mad about it until he started rolling that out there. At least man up and admit you are a bat for hire, just like everyone else. The "different" athlete that he tried to portray himself as is dead, as far as I'm concerned.

So after 11 years of being a ridiculous bargain and 3 WS appearance including 2 rings it was too much for Pujols to except market value? Like I said a market without the Yanks/Red Sox involved.Pujols was suppossed to give a hometown discount and forgo 30+mill so a billionaire owner could reap that? Come on. Just don't get the logic that a millionaire is greedy for wanting market value while the billionaire owner is not despite having reaped such financial rewards over the past 11 years.

You are blowing my mind here. He's the one saying it is "not about the money", which is an outright lie. You're the very one saying it is all about the money. Have I mentioned greed? I say let's call a spade a spade.... he's now a mercenary like A-Rod or any other power hitter that chased the dollar signs. Unfortunate, but true. If he's willing to ruin what he had in St. Louis over $30 million, so be it. What's done is done. You can rationalize things away all day about "market value" and "respect from a billionaire owner", but at the end of a day it is a guy turning his back on a small market franchise that has given him unbelievable support for 11 seasons over a sum of money that is inconsequential to him and his family. They offered what they felt they could afford in terms of baseball operations budget, and that was that. If he truly wanted to remain a "Cardinal for life" and let the Cardinals put a competitive team around him, 10-yr $210 mil was plenty enough.I'm not sure where you are getting your information on the financials of the St. Louis Cardinals, but they are not a franchise that can just give Pujols a blank check. Even if they were to do that, it goes against everything Albert told them HE WANTED in order to stay.

 

[Daywalker]

What position does Diedre play? Her interview today gave the impression that she was a .300 hitter.

Well offering her 5years/130mill is more appropriate then to Albert.

We'll see about that in 10 years.

If I was a Cards fan I'd take 2-3 rough year's at the end of his contract for the chance to continue the success they've had recently. 3 WS appearances and 2 titles. Not to mention keeping a legend in town and seeing all those milestones come to pass in those last few year's of the contract.Passed all that up for like 25-30mill. Franchise probably lost that much value the day he signed elsewhere. Angels closed their TV deal basically the day he signed. That was worth some money right there.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. But let's not act like that offer is insulting. Just because the Angels were willing to give him an A-Rod contract doesn't mean it was the right thing to do for St. Louis. Those two teams are in completely different places financially, so it is really hard to say where the spending would have actually stopped for LAA even if STL matched the offer on the table.I could just as easily flip that argument around on you. Pujols passed up staying with the team that drafted him, gave him an opportunity, and treated him like a king. A team that gave him, by his public demand, a group of complementary players capable of vying for the playoffs almost every season. He came to the park each day with legions of adoring fans that flocked to Busch Stadium from all across the midwest for EACH and EVERY home game. He was already a walking legend in one of the best baseball cities in America, and was poised to take his place amongst the likes of Stan the Man as an immortal icon. Instead, he decided that $210 million dollars over ten seasons was not enough "respect", even though he is the very person that requested they show him a commitment to winning by placing good players around him. He can't have it both ways, he is smart enough to know that will require him not squeezing every red cent he can out of the front office in his contract negotiations. Good players cost money, and no matter what you'd like to think, St. Louis is a very small market that is spending at its maximum levels at this time.So Albert decides to throw all THAT away for an extra 30-40 million. We're not even talking about money that he can spend, or even his kids can spend. Players that want to stay where they are find a way to make peace with being paid what their team can afford. Ripken did. Gwynn did. Chipper did. It is all about ego for Albert, and this is the path he chose. So be it. I'd be willing to bet the shirt off my back that it is a decision he will ultimately regret 20 years down the road. Hell, you could tell he had some reservations about it at his press conference. No one that just signed a contract that big should be that uneasy.

Without the Yanks/Red Sox in the market the contract he signed was on the low-end of the spectrum IMO. Reason why a team like Miami could even be in the bidding. No way was going to take an additional 25-30mill less. Cards were fortunate he could have been had at this price.How about the billionaire go the extra-mile not the player you got ridiculous value for over his 11 years? Who is the cheap one? 2 WS rings. Pay the man market value and not leave your fans reeling. 8/240 was about what Pujols was worth. 10/250 is not out of line considering the milestones he'll be hitting during those last few years.I'm sure Pujols did not want to leave St. Louis. What the hell was he suppossed to do though? Cards made it an easy decision.If you are a Cards fan would you really care if the Cards sucked year's 8-10 if that meant you could continue the current success as well as have Pujols retire a Cardinal? No-brainer IMO.

I'm enough of a baseball addict to understand what you're saying, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that if the man was happy where he was... $210 million for the last 10 years of his career PLAYING A GAME is more than sufficient. We get caught up in what guys are "worth", but these numbers are so big they are hardly relevant. Whether it is $210 million or $254 million is hardly consequential to Albert Pujols in terms of his day-to-day well being. Either way it is one of the richest, long-term contracts in the history of sports. You ask "what the hell was he supposed to do though?"The answer to that is simple: Whatever he feels is right. Just don't expect Cardinals fans to empathize with his decision because in the big scheme of things, its ludicrous. If he wanted to be a "Cardinal for life" like he walked around saying for the better part of a decade, nearly a quarter of a BILLION dollars should be plenty to keep him content.This whole "it wasn't about the money" act he's putting on is insulting to those of us that supported him for the last 11 years. I wasn't mad about it until he started rolling that out there. At least man up and admit you are a bat for hire, just like everyone else. The "different" athlete that he tried to portray himself as is dead, as far as I'm concerned.

So after 11 years of being a ridiculous bargain and 3 WS appearance including 2 rings it was too much for Pujols to except market value? Like I said a market without the Yanks/Red Sox involved.Pujols was suppossed to give a hometown discount and forgo 30+mill so a billionaire owner could reap that? Come on. Just don't get the logic that a millionaire is greedy for wanting market value while the billionaire owner is not despite having reaped such financial rewards over the past 11 years.

You are blowing my mind here. He's the one saying it is "not about the money", which is an outright lie. You're the very one saying it is all about the money. Have I mentioned greed? I say let's call a spade a spade.... he's now a mercenary like A-Rod or any other power hitter that chased the dollar signs. Unfortunate, but true. If he's willing to ruin what he had in St. Louis over $30 million, so be it. What's done is done. You can rationalize things away all day about "market value" and "respect from a billionaire owner", but at the end of a day it is a guy turning his back on a small market franchise that has given him unbelievable support for 11 seasons over a sum of money that is inconsequential to him and his family. They offered what they felt they could afford in terms of baseball operations budget, and that was that. If he truly wanted to remain a "Cardinal for life" and let the Cardinals put a competitive team around him, 10-yr $210 mil was plenty enough.I'm not sure where you are getting your information on the financials of the St. Louis Cardinals, but they are not a franchise that can just give Pujols a blank check. Even if they were to do that, it goes against everything Albert told them HE WANTED in order to stay.

Cards one of the top 10 most valuable franchises in MLB. 10/210 is C. Crawford money. It's a joke of an offer for a player/draw like Pujols.