Pulling out of a trade (1 Viewer)

[Blackjacks]

I have a bit of a ethical question about what I did to another owner in our keeper league.

We had dicussions ongoing for about a month on a trade for Desean Jackson. I was wanting a 1st round pick and he said the compensation sounded fair but he wanted to wait and see a bit. He then reoffered a new trade demanding more than what was originally agreed on so talks stalled. We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out. I got a not so nice email back from him saying that I backed out on an agreed upon trade but I see Desean's value changed once he signed the long term contract.

I was looking to move him cause he would be disgruntled and perhaps traded to a lesser team while under the franchise tag. Now that he is signed long term and talking up his team going to the superbowl I think his attitude will stay out of his talents way.

I want others opions on this matter. I dont think I did anything wrong but I think I would be ticked if the same happened to me.

I think the other owner could have avoided this by agreeing to the trade in a timely matter and not trying to get more and more. Obviously he saw a change in Desean's value as well since he agreed finally to the deal the day after his signing was announced.

Kind of feel bad, give me your 2 cents..........I hate drama!!!

 

[cstu]

We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out.

He waited until circumstances changed - unethical on his part to demand the trade.

 

[coolnerd]

I see nothing wrong here. The guy was obviously trying to milk the trade for every single asset instead of taking one that was fair enough for each party to in principle agree.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Nothing wrong at all. You two never consummated the trade. So thusly, you have no trade.

Now had you two "shook on it" or both posted it and confirmed on your leagues message board, then you backing out would be very bad form.

 

[Warhogs]

Nothing wrong with it in the way you described. What would have happened if instead of him signing his extension he had been killed in a car crash? Would you have then demanded that he send you that pick? If it went down as you desribed it does not sound like you two ever had a solid deal in place.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out.

He waited until circumstances changed - unethical on his part to demand the trade.

I agree. Snooze you lose. If you were working on a deal for say TB Mike Williams and had been having dialoge or a working agreement before VJax signed but nothing was finalized than that would change the circumstances and either side would/should be allowed to back out. A little different scenario but if circumstances/ value change than you should be able to change your mind as well as long as your still working out the trade and nothing was finalized/accepted.

 

[Couch Potato]

There's no deal until there's an official offer and acceptance. Assuming you're using MFL or something similar, anything outside of that form is considered discussion and nothing more. I've had a few times where a guy says yes to something in email, says send the offer, and then he changes his mind. Until processed via the official trade mechanism it's all just noise.

Tough cookies for him that he decided to wait until HE was more comfortable with the situation.

 

[cstu]

There's no deal until there's an official offer and acceptance. Assuming you're using MFL or something similar, anything outside of that form is considered discussion and nothing more. I've had a few times where a guy says yes to something in email, says send the offer, and then he changes his mind. Until processed via the official trade mechanism it's all just noise.

Tough cookies for him that he decided to wait until HE was more comfortable with the situation.

Even though it's legal, do you think it's ethical?

 

[Skeletore Eh]

I learned a long time ago, a trade isn't a trade until it is offered and accepted on the league site. Verbal agreements ultimately mean nothing. When someone emails me and asks if I would do a trade, I tell them to make the offer and they will find out. Too many times (with friends mostly) have people asked if I would do a trade, only to back out once I say yes. You did noting wrong at all.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

I learned a long time ago, a trade isn't a trade until it is offered and accepted on the league site. Verbal agreements ultimately mean nothing. When someone emails me and asks if I would do a trade, I tell them to make the offer and they will find out. Too many times (with friends mostly) have people asked if I would do a trade, only to back out once I say yes. You did noting wrong at all.

This.

 

[Couch Potato]

There's no deal until there's an official offer and acceptance. Assuming you're using MFL or something similar, anything outside of that form is considered discussion and nothing more. I've had a few times where a guy says yes to something in email, says send the offer, and then he changes his mind. Until processed via the official trade mechanism it's all just noise.

Tough cookies for him that he decided to wait until HE was more comfortable with the situation.

Even though it's legal, do you think it's ethical?

It's probably not ethical if they had a firm email agreement, but it becomes very messy for a FF league to try to enforce anything outside of the official form. I tell you though, if that same owner backed out a second time and a third time on different deals after we'd reached email agreements, I'd be done with him. As a Commish, I'd never force a trade between partners because one of them came to me with email evidence a deal was made. Has to be processed it via MFL. Until then, owner has freedom to back out / revoke.

 

[cobalt_27]

Agree. Nothing wrong on your end...AT ALL.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

There's no deal until there's an official offer and acceptance. Assuming you're using MFL or something similar, anything outside of that form is considered discussion and nothing more. I've had a few times where a guy says yes to something in email, says send the offer, and then he changes his mind. Until processed via the official trade mechanism it's all just noise.

Tough cookies for him that he decided to wait until HE was more comfortable with the situation.

Even though it's legal, do you think it's ethical?

Depends, was the offer just flat out rejected, or did Blackjacks come back with a reason saying stating how the long-term contract raises Jacksons value in his opinion and since the other guy wanted to wait they now have to go back to the drawing board if they still want to work out a deal.

 

[Couch Potato]

The difference here, if Blackjacks is giving the full and accurate story (remember, we're only getting his side of things), is that the other party had not accepted the offer in a timely manner. Saying he wanted to wait can be construed as a rejection, and whether that means the offer is no longer valid and would have to be re-offered may depend on what Blackjacks said after that, how long the other guy waited before coming back to accept, etc. That's why I said it gets very messy trying to enforce anything outside the official form. Simpler and better to have a hard and fast rule that no trade is official unless processed by the software.

 

[um_golden_gopher]

Agreed. You shouldn't feel bad. Nothing ethically wrong with refusing the offer after DJax signed his extension. His value clearly changed following the extension.

Also, good advice above by Skeletore. I've been burned a few times myself by another person initiating a trade discussion through e-mail and then backing out of their initial offer after I indicated I would do the deal.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

You should never feel bad about pulling out at just the right moment.

 

[squistion]

I learned a long time ago, a trade isn't a trade until it is offered and accepted on the league site. Verbal agreements ultimately mean nothing. When someone emails me and asks if I would do a trade, I tell them to make the offer and they will find out. Too many times (with friends mostly) have people asked if I would do a trade, only to back out once I say yes. You did noting wrong at all.

As Samuel Goldwyn said: A verbal agreement is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

There's no deal until there's an official offer and acceptance. Assuming you're using MFL or something similar, anything outside of that form is considered discussion and nothing more. I've had a few times where a guy says yes to something in email, says send the offer, and then he changes his mind. Until processed via the official trade mechanism it's all just noise.

Tough cookies for him that he decided to wait until HE was more comfortable with the situation.

Even though it's legal, do you think it's ethical?

I don't think it is, in that case. I like to make a lot of 3 way trades (where one trade might leave me weak at WR but I'm getting a WR back in the other one or something like that), and someone backing out of one of those once it's been verbally agreed upon would screw me over (thankfully that's not happened).However, in the OPs case I don't see a problem. A trade was never actually agreed upon. It sounds like it was mostly just talk with nothing solid and the other guy wanted to enforce that when the circumstances changed.

 

[Truman]

So the guy waited until DeSeans value increased then tried to enforce a deal based on a different market value?

 

[JPeso]

I disagree with a poster that said a trade isn't a trade until it's accepted on the site, but there are a lot of people who use really shady tactics in this hobby; probably do the same in their every day lives. If you agree on something, you stick to it. If I agree in principle to a trade, I stand by it no matter what changed.

I've had owners get mad at me that I send them something, they reject, and then a week later I don't want it anymore because maybe I have made another trade to address a need and/or situation has changed. I just shake my head that owners feel entitled to a trade because it was offered to them, rejected (essentially he "rejected" you above by saying he will wait), and then you don't end up wanting the trade a week later and they get pissy. "Dude, you sent this a week ago."

Above doesn't sound at all like anything was agreed upon, except that he didn't have balls when he needed to have them, and thus he's upset he lost out on a fair trade. We aren't dealing with options to purchase here.

 

[Perfect Tommy]

I have a bit of a ethical question about what I did to another owner in our keeper league.

We had dicussions ongoing for about a month on a trade for Desean Jackson. I was wanting a 1st round pick and he said the compensation sounded fair but he wanted to wait and see a bit. He then reoffered a new trade demanding more than what was originally agreed on so talks stalled. We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out. I got a not so nice email back from him saying that I backed out on an agreed upon trade but I see Desean's value changed once he signed the long term contract.

How does this person have agreements that he wants to wait on? That doesn't make sense. You either have an agreement or you don't. Sounds like you are being bullied by some fast talking in the trade negotiations. And then he somehow manipulates you into feeling guilty after he tried to pull an angle shot against you?! This guy is bad news. I wouldn't associate with him in any way if your story is accurate.

 

[thatguy]

The only way I can see him having a legitimate complaint would be if you'd said something to the tune of, "Okay, well I understand you want to think about it, but assume the offer is on the table until further notice, so if you decide you want to go through with it, let me know and it's a done deal." However, even though he'd have a right to be pissed, unless the trade was officially offered via the site, he's SOL. But that would constitute a situation in which you are perhaps morally in the wrong. And if that were the case, the second DeSean's situation changed for the better, you should have taken the offer off of the table ("unofficially", of course). Again, not saying that's how it went down, but if it is, then he has a legitimate right to be upset.

 

[GregR]

Assuming the OP gave an accurate picture of the situation, I don't think there's even a hint of anything unethical, bad sportsmanship, or anything of the like.

Either a trade was agreed to and is ready to be executed, or it isn't. This other owner didn't agree to the trade yet because he wanted to be able to change his mind if he didn't like how things went. No reason Blackjacks can't do the exact same thing for any reason up until the time they both agree the trade will now be executed. That time never happened.

 

[Blackjacks]

Agreed with everything here. Thanks guys.

I told the story the way it went down

 

[griff321]

Every time I read the title of this thread I chuckle and mutter "hehe Pulling out hehe"

Was I wrong?

 

[RavenLunatic]

You did nothing wrong here. The only recourse the guy has is in how he chooses to work on trades with you in the future...but I don't see this impacting others view of you as a trade partner.

That is why it is best to never say "yes"...but "sounds good, send the offer"

The league site is the final mechanism to control it. And the league message board is the final confirmation and announcement to the league. There is also a reason that "Revoke" is a button on all league sites that control trades. You are allowed to "unring" a bell until it is formally accepted.

I think the only time this is more sensitive is a trade that is made during a startup/rookie draft when someone is on the clock and has multiple offers that they may have turned down for yours. Even then, it only really comes back to your relationship with that owner.

 

[Moonlight]

lets say you had received another offer in the meantime from another owner regarding Jackson that you liked better. Were you bound to reject that offer because at some unknown point in time

this guy might choose to want to go ahead with the deal? Professor Kingsfield would say no because there was never a contract or meeting of the minds.

 

[Zimm]

We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out.

He waited until circumstances changed - unethical on his part to demand the trade.

I agree with this...If he was willing to wait on the deal he should have realized that values change and i guess its tough luck for him, and if Jackson would have went to lets say where ever Alice Smith ends up...Jackson's value would have tanked.

 

[JAA]

You did nothing wrong

 

[Sabertooth]

We then came to another verbal agreement that he again wanted to wait on an then once Desean signed his long term contract he offered the trade again and I backed out.

He waited until circumstances changed - unethical on his part to demand the trade.

This. I have an owner in my league who plays like this . If you offer him a trade, he will view it but never reject it. He just leaves them hang out there waiting to see if a situation (injury) changes. Then if it does he'll jump on it immediately.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I'd send him back an email ripping him for being an indecisive moron that thought that he could still buy in at a low value on a player whose value had obviously increased. It'd be like someone refusing to trade a first round pick for Peyton Manning in November and now wanting to do that same deal after training camp this year when Peyton lights it up. Or the reverse when an owner leaves a trade proposal hanging, their guy gets hurt, and they immediately go and accept the trade. Circumstances change the value of player and what they're worth in a trade. If that guy didn't want to take on the risk of the uncertainty with DeSean for a 1st round pick, that's fine, but now that the risk is much lower, the price is also higher.

So basically, screw that guy. I hate dealing with people like that. They're always looking to rip off other owners and they ALWAYS think that they're in the right.