Reality show contestant possibly cheats on DraftKings...UPDATE Draftkings strips Bachelor contestant of 1M prize (1 Viewer)

[Brony]

If collusion is bad, then isn't FBG in hot water for having a DFS forum?  And don't get me started on The Test Forum. 

 

[Big League Chew]

only going to get worse now

 

[eoMMan]

only going to get worse now

That's my fear.  Many people probably just woke up and thought, "Hey, my buddy and I can do this!"

 

[Jayrok]

Another reason DraftKings will quickly pay and then clarify rules going forward:

Let’s say they didn’t, and now internet sleuths start forensic work on every past victory. Some smart data cruncher could probably locate entries that were likely submitted together to maximize coverage. Now we’ve got a scandal that opens the door to more litigation. It’s best they allow it, set the precedent that they allowed it, move forward, and hope to limit investigations and grievances from other contests. 

Well that would be a nice payday for the bachelor contestants. Brilliant! 

 

[jon_mx]

These two got caught because he tweeted that he or she told him/her not to play Metcalf, allowing the Internet sleuths to go on the hunt.  

To think that this was first successfully done by a couple of reality show (Bachelor none the less) nimrods is laughable and naive.  

A contest that allows 150 entries when only 4 games are being played is just asking for something like this to happen.  I'm guilty of playing DFS on one site but I only play single entry contests.  

Sounds like advice.  

 

[Steeler]

Example B: You and a group of friends collaborate in NFL contests to each draft different QBs and WRs, to guarantee you aren't competing as directly with each other.

Entering the maximum number of entries in a contest, type of contest, or event, and having a 3rd party, regardless of their relationship, put in additional entries for you.

Example: A contest has a maximum of 10 entries. You put in 10 entries but want to play more so you give your friend 10 additional lineups to play in the contest.

I'm just on page 2 but it sure seems like they broke the rules.

 

[Steeler]

but it seems the DK rules are flawed. You cant expect people NOT to do some sort of strategy when you offer payouts that big. 

It seems like the DK rules are fine because their examples of what not to do are exactly what these two dummies did.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It seems like the DK rules are fine because their examples of what not to do are exactly what these two dummies did.

And basically what tons of people do every week - sharing info and LUs.  So the problem isn't the collusion/sharing of data, but who gets the $, right?  Info sharing is fine, but sharing the winnings is not?

 

[Steeler]

The dudes that won big a few years ago because they were using insider ownership % data?  That's cheating.  

I agree with this.  It would be a MUCH bigger deal if these guys had insider information, even if it seems like they broke the rules.  Collusion between players is "less bad" than the sites/insiders sharing information.

 

[culdeus]

When I buy lottery tickets I buy all the numbers.  Is that collusion?

 

[Jayrok]

Sounds like advice.  

Yeah it is.  I guess the tweet seemed fishy to some as some sort of distraction but it caused the sleuths to dig into each of their lineups and found that the guy who told her she shouldn't play Metcalf had Metcalf in 78 or 88% of his own lineups.  Or something.  That opened the door to find out who else they had in common and contrast.  Maybe if she hadn't boasted about Metcalf, no one would have thought a thing about it.  IDK.  

 

[Big League Chew]

That's my fear.  Many people probably just woke up and thought, "Hey, my buddy and I can do this!"

exactly. so now the DFS sites will either need to be more strict or start publicly enforcing violators.

 

[NotSmart]

When I buy lottery tickets I buy all the numbers.  Is that collusion?

No it's not, collusion requires more than one person to be involved.

Also, buying as many tickets as you can is not against lottery rules.

 

[Steeler]

And basically what tons of people do every week - sharing info and LUs.  So the problem isn't the collusion/sharing of data, but who gets the $, right?  Info sharing is fine, but sharing the winnings is not?

Sharing info/lineups via pod casts, message boards, etc. is different from coordinating multiple lineups with other players in the same contest.  Their "collusion" could simply have been a brief conversation about dividing the QBs to ensure no dupe entries.  This isn't as bad as insider collusion obviously but it is still pretty clearly against the rules  

BTW, this story won't deter me from playing in DFS tournaments at all (although I play in lower stakes tourneys).

 

[culdeus]

What stops a message board like this from just fanning out 1000 entries as a pool and you get 10-20 people to manage entering it all?  Is that detectable?  

 

[jon_mx]

Yeah it is.  I guess the tweet seemed fishy to some as some sort of distraction but it caused the sleuths to dig into each of their lineups and found that the guy who told her she shouldn't play Metcalf had Metcalf in 78 or 88% of his own lineups.  Or something.  That opened the door to find out who else they had in common and contrast.  Maybe if she hadn't boasted about Metcalf, no one would have thought a thing about it.  IDK.  

Still does not sound like collusion to me.  It is like looking at your spouses lottery picks and making sure they are different, you are just expanding coverage by having more unique entries.  The fact that you are allowed 150 entries makes the collusion argument silly.   It is not like making a one-sided trade to make one team better at the sacrifice of the other.  Or throwing a league game so one team will qualify for the playoffs.  Or knowing what your teammates cards are in an online poker game so you can run up the pot when your teammate has a monster.   It sounds like a flaw or limitation in the actual game itself more than collusion.   I just say congrats to them.  

 

[Steeler]

Anyone playing casually is like a lamb in a lion’s den.

I play casually (at lower buyins) and think it's fun.  I enjoy the research/building lineups and it gives me something else to root for during the games.   

 

[bagger]

Maybe get the kids involved next time and have 750 lineups.

Sure why not?

I don’t see the issue here.

We could get 10 of us to submit 150 teams each.  If one of us wins and we have a side agreement to split the money I don’t see the issue.  If that’s not intended then Draft Kings can limit their maximum entries accordingly.

This isn’t collusion. At worst it is sloppy rules by Draft Kings.  
 

What’s next, office employees colluding to win the lottery?

 

[bagger]

When I buy lottery tickets I buy all the numbers.  Is that collusion?

Beat me to it.

 

[bagger]

He's not within the rules! He/they broke them.

UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIORS

Group play behavior designed to gain an unfair advantage over others:

Team-building complementary lineups which serve to work together AND executing a strategy that may create any unfair advantage over individual play.

Example A: You and 2 of your friends coordinate the makeup of the lineups you build AND coordinate which contests you enter using them.

Example B: You and a group of friends collaborate in NFL contests to each draft different QBs and WRs, to guarantee you aren't competing as directly with each other.

Entering the maximum number of entries in a contest, type of contest, or event, and having a 3rd party, regardless of their relationship, put in additional entries for you.

Example: A contest has a maximum of 10 entries. You put in 10 entries but want to play more so you give your friend 10 additional lineups to play in the contest.

These “rules” are unenforceable.  If this is important to them they need to reduce maximum entries.

 

[tjnc09]

What stops a message board like this from just fanning out 1000 entries as a pool and you get 10-20 people to manage entering it all?  Is that detectable?  

It’s extremely likely it’s happening already.  If there is money to be made, someone is already bending the rules to profit.  

This couple apparently was dumb.  They probably would have never been caught if they had simply not used her real name.  A celebrity woman winning the $1m is going to draw a lot of extra attention compared to a generic user ID.  

The smart cheaters would overlap lineups and use more generic IDs to stay under the radar.

 

[tjnc09]

These “rules” are unenforceable.  If this is important to them they need to reduce maximum entries.

What are you talking about reducing maximum entries?  If the maximum entries is set at one, someone will collude to get two or three or four in.    

 

[Capella]

It’s extremely likely it’s happening already.  If there is money to be made, someone is already bending the rules to profit.  

This couple apparently was dumb.  They probably would have never been caught if they had simply not used her real name.  A celebrity woman winning the $1m is going to draw a lot of extra attention compared to a generic user ID.  

The smart cheaters would overlap lineups and use more generic IDs to stay under the radar.

They were in the bachelor. Attention whores by birth. This is like a dream scenario for them. 

 

[tjnc09]

No way she’s not collecting. D.K. execs would have to answer questions if this went to arbitration. Real question is how quickly they bump up the prize money of the other places under NDA to head off that litigation. 

Uh, that’s exactly why the other players should sue.  Their license for sports betting and DFS is a gold mine.  No way any of the losing players should accept one bump in prize money - they should be shooting for the moon due to potential lost money in other contests.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sharing info/lineups via pod casts, message boards, etc. is different from coordinating multiple lineups with other players in the same contest.  Their "collusion" could simply have been a brief conversation about dividing the QBs to ensure no dupe entries.  This isn't as bad as insider collusion obviously but it is still pretty clearly against the rules  

BTW, this story won't deter me from playing in DFS tournaments at all (although I play in lower stakes tourneys).

Like I said, his example in the video was 3 guys using the same LU in cash, but using a different LU in gpps.  If they weren't splitting the pot, how is that different from us using info from a site/the optimizer and using the same LU in cash and a different LU in gpp?  

I get that it is against their "rules", I guess that I am just trying to get my head around why this is that much different from what 1000s are doing each week, especially using the example in the video where he said that it's not about the 150 LUs, it's about people entering the same LU and effecting the experience of the contest for others.  

 

[eoMMan]

I just realized I played in this contest and cashed for $60.

Am I due more money? Should I hire an FFA attorney to shake Draft Kings down?

 

[Psychopav]

If collusion is bad, then isn't FBG in hot water for having a DFS forum?  And don't get me started on The Test Forum. 

Why do you think it was shut down?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I just realized I played in this contest and cashed for $60.

Am I due more money? Should I hire an FFA attorney to shake Draft Kings down?

If it wasn't for this cheating you might have won $80!! 

 

[Tom Servo]

Sounds like Nipsey came in second in the contest.

If you dabble in gambling, don't be shocked that the game and/or the other players are crooked.

 

[Nipsey]

I thought Zeidenfeld's suggestion of simply grouping known teams/syndicates and allowing them only combined max entries was a good idea. Like he said it's a data driven website, they know who's playing together. Can't sweep it under the rug anymore. If those huge prize contests go away because of it so be it.

 

[Nipsey]

Sure why not?

I don’t see the issue here.

We could get 10 of us to submit 150 teams each.  If one of us wins and we have a side agreement to split the money I don’t see the issue.  If that’s not intended then Draft Kings can limit their maximum entries accordingly.

This isn’t collusion. At worst it is sloppy rules by Draft Kings.  
 

What’s next, office employees colluding to win the lottery?

The issue is lineup coordination. If all of us here each entered the contest and simply decided whatever we make we split, that would be different from max-entering and sharing all of our lineups as to ensure we had unique lineups/maximum coverage. That's collusion.

 

[Nipsey]

I didn't know what he said about "condia".  Any truth to that?  (that basically condia colluded with a couple other guys to have the exact same H2H line-ups so if competitors dodged "condia", they would be facing his buddy with the same line-up)

I had heard that. He was playing such a high volume (like 500K a day) they probably decided not in their interest to shut him down. He did an interesting podcast about a year ago talking about his DFS career. In the beginning the guy maxed out his credit cards one day, put it all on the line and if he lost was going to kill himself. Ended up winning and never looked back. Nuts.

 

[xulf]

I had heard that. He was playing such a high volume (like 500K a day) they probably decided not in their interest to shut him down. He did an interesting podcast about a year ago talking about his DFS career. In the beginning the guy maxed out his credit cards one day, put it all on the line and if he lost was going to kill himself. Ended up winning and never looked back. Nuts.

Sounds like a fun hobby/job.

 

[Steeler]

If you’ve played previously, three questions:

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Sure, if possible.  But disqualification after cheating is uncovered seems fine to me too.

 

[AAABatteries]

150 lineups each. No overlap. Obvious positional strategy to get maximum coverage.

There’s zero chance this isn’t being done a lot by more sophisticated cheaters.  One of the many reasons I don’t play.

 

[Steeler]

I don’t even know how the contests themselves work, but have to think there’s a difference in results between whether the contest is run with those entries present than if they’d been removed prior. Is that not the case?

Is this aggregate points where it’s easy to retroactively amend results, or are there for example head-to-head eliminations? In other words, if the entries were expunged, events would transpire differently?

I’m imagining an example of a poker tournament where there are four human players and twenty-three bots. I get taken out early by a bot (that shared hole card data and gained an advantage) and finish fourth of the four human players. Later the bots are discovered and DQ’d, and I’m paid fourth place prize money. I might object to that if the site had a basis to know those were bots before the game started (let’s say they maintained a list of known bots that these fictitious bots were on, but they hadn’t gotten around to purging them) because their presence may be material to why I finished fourth. 

Most of the contests are for a single slate of games so not at all like a poker tourney (except for the payout structure).  Everyone enters the contest before it starts and then everyone finishes at the same time when the last game of the slate completes.  So it would be very easy to remove cheaters after the fact and then the rest of the entrants would just move up in payouts accordingly.

 

[General Malaise]

I like to play single entry tournaments for PGA and that's about it.  Anything else is just a sucker's bet.

 

[Quint]

Hitler Reacts

 

[Bossman]

At what point is the game rigged? 150 entries seems extremely arbitrary to me. What if the rule was 75 and the husband and wife combine for 150 entries? I guess what I’m getting at is, is there a mathematical number that they know would tip the advantage?

.... asking for a friend.

 

[eoMMan]

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[eoMMan]

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[eoMMan]

Sorry for back-to-back here, but fascinated.

If you’ve played previously and haven’t cheated, questions:

1. Do you think D.K. should be responsible for flagging obvious signs of violations of their rules?

2. If yes to #2, do you think those entries should be disqualified prior to the contest?

3. Might this have interfered with rightful winnings?

Answers to those are at the mouth to some giant rabbit holes. Can you say “class action?”

1.  Yes.  With their vast amount of data, they should have systems in place to detect stuff like this.

2.  Probably.  Maybe disqualify them after kick-off and refund their entry fee?

3.  Sure.

 

[Bossman]

I thought this was going to be a story on someone inside DK making things happen for the big winner.

32 different QB options (ok, maybe 28 on bye weeks)

Gotta be 100 different RB combinations

Maybe 200 different WR combinations?

28 TE's

60 Flex options

32 (or 28) DEF

... would need a lot more than 300 lineups to guarantee the #1 prize

These folks risked $6k and were still LUCKy to take first place.

... and I think this is a case where collusion is NOT cheating.

 

[The Z Machine]

Can someone explain to me why syndicate play is not allowed? How is it different than a Lotto pool?

 

[Nipsey]

I thought this was going to be a story on someone inside DK making things happen for the big winner.

32 different QB options (ok, maybe 28 on bye weeks)

Gotta be 100 different RB combinations

Maybe 200 different WR combinations?

28 TE's

60 Flex options

32 (or 28) DEF

... would need a lot more than 300 lineups to guarantee the #1 prize

These folks risked $6k and were still LUCKy to take first place.

... and I think this is a case where collusion is NOT cheating.

In this case it was a 4 game slate. Nobody saying 300 lineups would guarantee winning the big prize.

 

[Nipsey]

Can someone explain to me why syndicate play is not allowed? How is it different than a Lotto pool?

For starters there's no limit to the amount of lotto tickets you can buy. In dfs contests there is a limit and in the cases of these 150 max entry contests  the entry limit exists to be in compliance with state law.

Each Operator must restrict the number of entries submitted by a single authorized player for any contest to 150 entries per player per contest, or by a maximum of three percent of the total number of entries by all players for any contest, whichever is less, or as determined by the Commission.

Some states specifically have anti-collusion laws in place as well.

 

[NotSmart]

I thought this was going to be a story on someone inside DK making things happen for the big winner.

32 different QB options (ok, maybe 28 on bye weeks)

Gotta be 100 different RB combinations

Maybe 200 different WR combinations?

28 TE's

60 Flex options

32 (or 28) DEF

... would need a lot more than 300 lineups to guarantee the #1 prize

These folks risked $6k and were still LUCKy to take first place.

... and I think this is a case where collusion is NOT cheating.

Winning the jackpot is just gravy... the large players are doing the poker equivalent of grinding... constantly betting $XXXXX with a large number of entries to win $XXXXX + $YYYY.

 

[NotSmart]

Hitler Reacts

Wow, that's cuttingly well done! 

Also, from the video, FanDuel doesn't even have a compliance team? 

 

[bagger]

What are you talking about reducing maximum entries?  If the maximum entries is set at one, someone will collude to get two or three or four in.    

Correct, meaning 4 total entries versus 300.  If you reduce the amount any one person can submit and make it exponentially more difficult to build a pool of entries to “collude” with, it will take away the incentive.   Way too much work for me to find another 299 people to submit one entry than telling my wife to submit 150 on top of mine.

 

[bagger]

The issue is lineup coordination. If all of us here each entered the contest and simply decided whatever we make we split, that would be different from max-entering and sharing all of our lineups as to ensure we had unique lineups/maximum coverage. That's collusion.

How would they ever know? What if our lineups naturally were unique and had maximum coverage? Are we now colluding?  Who is the determinant of this arbitrary rule?

Let’s be clear, DraftKings sets the lineups insanely high to maximize revenue.  They clearly have no problem with optimizing lineups or they wouldn’t allow you to submit 150, which is absurd.