Reggie Bush (1 Viewer)

[Bob_Magaw]

if he were to keep up this pace, he would shatter the league record for receptions by a RB... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)...

if that happens, and he helps lead the saints to the playoffs (with brees, mcalister, colston), imo he would deserve mention as an MVP candidate... though mcnabb would have to get it if he maintains HIS pace...

 

[sterjs]

if he were to keep up this pace, he would shatter the league record for receptions by a RB... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)...if that happens, and he helps lead the saints to the playoffs (with brees, mcalister, colston), imo he would deserve mention as an MVP candidate... though mcnabb would have to get it if he maintains HIS pace...

Based on what he's done so far, he's deserves to be nowhere near the MVP discussion. 3.1 yards per carry and 7.3 yards per reception. No touchdowns. Bush is rated as the second worst running back in the league among qualifying players this year by Football Outsiders.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

not on the basis of being a pure RB, but on the basis of IF he breaks the NFL receptions record (you can't just be a tomato can & do that), and IF he helps lead what had until as recently as last season been a moribund franchise to the playoffs...

* its not the best RB award... it is the MVP... nobody could deny he has had a massive impact on the team (thread below on how he impacts defensive game planning just by his presence, sort of like randy moss at WR in his prime)...

you may be underappreciating the historical nature of a rookie RB breaking the league receiving record... i'm guessing it would have to be pretty rare for a rookie WIDE RECEIVER to break the league record for receptions... to do it as a rookie & a RB would be freakish...

 

[Zigg]

I think the yards will be spread too thin between Bush, Deuce, Colston and Horn for Bush to win MVP even with the reception record. However, that some people have used the word bust when refering to Bush is laughable.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

and just for the record, i would give it to mcnabb (as would nearly everybody) if the season ended today... my contention that a record of that historic proportion would merit inclusion with the short list of candidates (and also contingent on saints making playoff, which would reflect well on his impact)...

 

[sterjs]

not on the basis of being a pure RB, but on the basis of IF he breaks the NFL receptions record (you can't just be a tomato can & do that), and IF he helps lead what had until as recently as last season been a moribund franchise to the playoffs...

Reggie Bush's receptions numbers are impressive(especially his catch% of 85), but his receiving contributions are only rated 3rd best among runningbacks by DPAR. Running the football, he has been well below replacement level--2nd to last on the DPAR ranking and bad enough to be a negative DPAR player when you add rushing and receiving together.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

i still don't think that addresses the ripple through effect he has had on the whole offense, in debateably making those around him better... or speak to bush helping win the game sun with a punt return TD that put NO up for good...

140 receptions would be a lot... even if his average is 7-8 yards per reception, that is moving the chains & better than a 5-6 yard run...

there must be RBs that are higher on the list for the stat mentioned above due to having a higher YPC... but is it better to average 9 yards a catch & get 3 receptions... or get 1-2 yards less but getting 2-3 X the receptions...

 

[sterjs]

there must be RBs that are higher on the list for the stat mentioned above due to having a higher YPC... but is it better to average 9 yards a catch & get 3 receptions... or get 1-2 yards less but getting 2-3 X the receptions...

DPAR is a counting statistic(like catches, etc), except it measures total production and is adjusted for competition faced etc. Larry Johnson has gained 268 yards and a touchdown on 24 catches with a catch percent of 83--slightly below Bush. I'd rather have Johnson's receiving production than Bush's 41-256-0 (catch percent 85). The other back above Bush is Brian Westbrook 29-218-2-69%. I think it's fair to say Westbrook's production is slightly better as well even though he has fewer yards. LJ's DPAR is 7.3, BW 5.4, Bush 4.7.http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb.php

 

[JuniorNB]

MVP?

He's not even Rookie of the Year.........

on his team.

 

[Ilov80s]

MVP?He's not even Rookie of the Year.........on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

I will say it again...

The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him.

Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

 

[knowledge dropper]

MVP?He's not even Rookie of the Year.........on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Then he wins MVD (Most Valuable Decoy) hands down.

 

[BGP]

I will say it again...The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him. Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

Reggie Bush entered the NFL with a bunch of endorsement deals like he already is a superstar."The Reggie Bush project" ads for Diet Pepsi?Those ads aren't meant for year 3 or 4. They're meant for right now. The bar is going to be raised far, far higher for Bush than other rookies by the fans. If he ISN'T a total all-around stud as a runner and receiver, then the fans will see it as a glut of overhyped nonsense and turn on Bush real fast, imo.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

I will say it again...The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him. Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

Reggie Bush entered the NFL with a bunch of endorsement deals like he already is a superstar."The Reggie Bush project" ads for Diet Pepsi?Those ads aren't meant for year 3 or 4. They're meant for right now. The bar is going to be raised far, far higher for Bush than other rookies by the fans. If he ISN'T a total all-around stud as a runner and receiver, then the fans will see it as a glut of overhyped nonsense and turn on Bush real fast, imo.

Bush=Vick as far as the hype machine goes. Westbrook has been doing what people hope Bush does for years. Westbrook was a third round pick, not the second in the draft, and sure as heck didnt get any where close to the contract Bush did. I am a Philly fan so maybe its a bit of the homer in me, but I cant see Bush doing much better then what Westbrook has done. If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons.

 

[BaBastage]

if he were to keep up this pace, he would shatter the league record for receptions by a RB... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)...if that happens, and he helps lead the saints to the playoffs (with brees, mcalister, colston), imo he would deserve mention as an MVP candidate... though mcnabb would have to get it if he maintains HIS pace...

I don't think merely breaking the pass catching record for a rb automatically deserves MVP consideration. What's the current record - 101 by Larry Centers or something like that? iirc Larry made the pro bowl, but that was it.Still - I do applaud NO's coaching and management in utilizing him for the benefit of the team.

 

[Sidewinder]

if he were to keep up this pace... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)......

Harrison has the season record with 143 (in 2002). 34 receptions in 5 games = 6.8 per game x 16 games = 109 receptions. A stretch to think he'll get close to 143, but definitely has a shot at Boldin's rookie record of 101 catches in 2003.

 

[packersfan]

Brees is the Saints' MVP.

It's a completely different team with an actual NFL QB who doesn't have his head up his a** much of the time.

 

[gman8343]

Comeback player of the year could go to Deuce...

 

[Sidewinder]

I will say it again...

The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him.

Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

Bush=Vick as far as the hype machine goes. Westbrook has been doing what people hope Bush does for years. Westbrook was a third round pick, not the second in the draft, and sure as heck didnt get any where close to the contract Bush did.

I am a Philly fan so maybe its a bit of the homer in me, but I cant see Bush doing much better then what Westbrook has done. If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons.

Yah think ?Kind of ironic for a Westbrook fan to be talking about another RB staying healthy...

 

[Dancing Bear]

I'm actually dumb-founded that this thread could even have been initiated ...

The guy is an average RB at best.

If you look at the facts, you cannot even state that he is the best backup RB in the NFL, let alone the best RB or anywhere close to an MVP candidate ...

He has a paltry 7.3 ypc. Larry Johnson for instance has a ypc over 13!

He has not figured out the NFL and so far with respect to running. He should be considered a horrible rusher with a 3.1 ypr; with nearly a 40% chance of a rush ending with less than 1 yard!

Deuce behind the same line, in the same system, same scheme, with the same blockers has a ypr of nearly 5 ypr, and a ypc of 7.6; with a bit over a 20% chance for a rush to end with less than 1 yard.

If Bush were to be considered as an actual WR, we would be laughing at him, his ypc is so bad. There are receivers with nearly 3 times the ypc and most are 2 times his ypc.

On what basis can we possibly entertain the fact that he is even the MVP of the New Orleans special teams unit. He did score a TD last week without a doubt, but barely jogged and certainly made no spectacular moves. His teammates cleared a path so wide that my 91 year old grandmother could have run down that sideline untouched!

Let's all admit that he is an exciting addition to the NFL, the New Orleans Saints, and that he can be electrifying to watch when he touches the field, there is a lot of anticipation for what he could do ... but let's not ignore the facts please ...

 

[Mungo Burrows]

Comeback player of the year could go to Deuce...

I think Grossman gets that one if he keeps it up. While some would argue he was never "here" in the first place to "come back", they give that award to guys like that all the time...case in point: Drew Brees 2004.

 

[thayman]

Comeback player of the year could go to Deuce...

I think Grossman gets that one if he keeps it up. While some would argue he was never "here" in the first place to "come back", they give that award to guys like that all the time...case in point: Drew Brees 2004.

I think you have to give it to McNabb......if he doesn't get MVP....

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

I will say it again...

The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him.

Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

Bush=Vick as far as the hype machine goes. Westbrook has been doing what people hope Bush does for years. Westbrook was a third round pick, not the second in the draft, and sure as heck didnt get any where close to the contract Bush did.

I am a Philly fan so maybe its a bit of the homer in me, but I cant see Bush doing much better then what Westbrook has done. If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons.

Yah think ?Kind of ironic for a Westbrook fan to be talking about another RB staying healthy...

Maybe you didnt get my point...The point is Westbrook puts those numbers up and didnt stay healthy and he only started 8 games in his second year. I will say it again "If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons." I dont see Bush having 14 combined TDs this year or next.

 

[belyeapower]

I will say it again...The Saints have to hope and pray Bush is as good as Brian Westbrook. You cant judge Bush by his rookie year, its going to take the Saints and himself some time to get use to the NFL and how his team will use him. Keep this in mind.. Westbrooks 2nd year - 14 Combined TDs, the Saints would pray for that from Bush

Reggie Bush entered the NFL with a bunch of endorsement deals like he already is a superstar."The Reggie Bush project" ads for Diet Pepsi?Those ads aren't meant for year 3 or 4. They're meant for right now. The bar is going to be raised far, far higher for Bush than other rookies by the fans. If he ISN'T a total all-around stud as a runner and receiver, then the fans will see it as a glut of overhyped nonsense and turn on Bush real fast, imo.

Bush=Vick as far as the hype machine goes. Westbrook has been doing what people hope Bush does for years. Westbrook was a third round pick, not the second in the draft, and sure as heck didnt get any where close to the contract Bush did. I am a Philly fan so maybe its a bit of the homer in me, but I cant see Bush doing much better then what Westbrook has done. If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons.

thats the thing though that if westbrook ever stayed healthy he'd be marshall faulk 2 - but he cant stay healthy - reggie doens thave the knee problems - and could be like a westbrook w/out bad kneesthat makes him have the potential of a top 5 back in the leagueim an eagles fan too and i drool a the thought of westbrook w/out injuriesask deuce how much he hoves having reggie there - people are so obsessed w/ stopping bush that deuce get mack truck size hole to cruise through

 

[ImTheScientist]

MVP?He's not even Rookie of the Year.........on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Fantasy football guy usually gets too caught up in the statistics and not what is really happening.

 

[JuniorNB]

MVP?He's not even Rookie of the Year.........on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Fantasy football guy usually gets too caught up in the statistics and not what is really happening.

I am not questioning his impact in the NFL. I see the games. I see that opponents have to key on him anytime he's on the field. I know that opens things up for McAllister and Colston.My reply was because someone suggested that he is an MVP candidate.You can't give the MVP award to a guy averaging 2 yards per carry. I know he has a lot of receptions. That is very good. They are finding a way to get the ball in his hands in space.Is he a great weapon? Absolutely. But he's certainly not an MVP candidate.

 

[belyeapower]

MVP?He's not even Rookie of the Year.........on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Fantasy football guy usually gets too caught up in the statistics and not what is really happening.

I am not questioning his impact in the NFL. I see the games. I see that opponents have to key on him anytime he's on the field. I know that opens things up for McAllister and Colston.My reply was because someone suggested that he is an MVP candidate.You can't give the MVP award to a guy averaging 2 yards per carry. I know he has a lot of receptions. That is very good. They are finding a way to get the ball in his hands in space.Is he a great weapon? Absolutely. But he's certainly not an MVP candidate.

agreedbust? NOmvp? NObright future? YES

 

[ImTheScientist]

MVP?

He's not even Rookie of the Year.........

on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Fantasy football guy usually gets too caught up in the statistics and not what is really happening.

I am not questioning his impact in the NFL. I see the games. I see that opponents have to key on him anytime he's on the field. I know that opens things up for McAllister and Colston.My reply was because someone suggested that he is an MVP candidate.

You can't give the MVP award to a guy averaging 2 yards per carry. I know he has a lot of receptions. That is very good. They are finding a way to get the ball in his hands in space.

Is he a great weapon? Absolutely. But he's certainly not an MVP candidate.

He's averaging more than 2 ypc........but thats not the point. The point is ..... Look beyond the stats! MOST VALUABLE PLAYER ...... not the best statistical player award.

 

[JuniorNB]

MVP?

He's not even Rookie of the Year.........

on his team.

Statistically speaking, no he is not. In the real world of football, yes he is. He opens up a lot of room for the offense.

Fantasy football guy usually gets too caught up in the statistics and not what is really happening.

I am not questioning his impact in the NFL. I see the games. I see that opponents have to key on him anytime he's on the field. I know that opens things up for McAllister and Colston.My reply was because someone suggested that he is an MVP candidate.

You can't give the MVP award to a guy averaging 2 yards per carry. I know he has a lot of receptions. That is very good. They are finding a way to get the ball in his hands in space.

Is he a great weapon? Absolutely. But he's certainly not an MVP candidate.

He's averaging more than 2 ypc........but thats not the point. The point is ..... Look beyond the stats! MOST VALUABLE PLAYER ...... not the best statistical player award.

I know what it stands for. Try taking McNabb away from the Eagles.The Saints success is a combination of Brees, Bush, Colston, and a defense playing much better.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Junior....I never said I would give him the MVP. I was pointing out the flaws in your arguement against. McNabb is the MVP to this point, although bush does deserve some consideration IMO along with Brees.

 

[JuniorNB]

Junior....I never said I would give him the MVP. I was pointing out the flaws in your arguement against. McNabb is the MVP to this point.

Oh. Agreed then.

 

[boubucarow]

Reggie Bush is the best combination of speed, elusiveness, explosion, hands, and route running of any rookie RB probably ever.

As for as his yards per touch, he needs to adjust to the NFL in the running game. He needs to slow down and read the blocking much better. He bounces outside before the holes are open inside. He can't bust every play to the outside especially when the defense is expecting him to bounce every play to the outside. On the receiving end, the defense keys on him and swarms him when he catches the ball and since we all know he won't be running over multiple people, he won't have a lot of YPC unless he is in space. In addition, he runs routes when Larry Johnson catches screens and dump offs. The comparison between the two as receivers is not applicable.

The main reasons for the success of the Saints offense is Brees, Bush, and the playcalling. Brees spreads the ball around to the open guy while Bush's presences creates those open guys. With no Bush, Brees has a lot less wide open people. The playcalling and play design utilizes opposing teams fear of Bush. McAllister's big run last week was a direct result of Brian Kelly running right past him to get to Bush on the reverse. He ran right by McAllister when he had the ball 7 yards downfield to get to Bush. I have seen numerous plays where defenders react to Bush on a route and their reactions open up lanes for Colston, Horn, and Henderson.

The defense is playing well and deserves a lot of credit as well but the only player that is conceivably more important to the Saint's success than Reggie Bush is Drew Brees.

 

[boubucarow]

Just to add...

McNabb is far away the league MVP at this point.

 

[Sidewinder]

Maybe you didnt get my point...

The point is Westbrook puts those numbers up and didnt stay healthy and he only started 8 games in his second year. I will say it again "If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons." I dont see Bush having 14 combined TDs this year or next.

Guess I didn't get your point then. But saying he "might" reach Westbrook's numbers over the next couple of seasons is laughable.First off, actually, it was 13 TDs, but no matter. As far as reaching Westbrook's "numbers" goes, if you are talking TDs only, sure, I'll give you that. Pretty easy to argue that Deuce, Colston, Horn, and Henderson are a notch above Buckhalter, Pinkston, Thrash, and Mitchell, so Bush is not necessarily counted on to be the scorer.

But beyond TDs, Reggie is on pace for 1,350 rush/rec yds. Westbrook's 3 season average (03, 04, and 05) is over 100 yds below that, and only in 04 did he exceed 1,350 yds.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Maybe you didnt get my point...

The point is Westbrook puts those numbers up and didnt stay healthy and he only started 8 games in his second year. I will say it again "If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons." I dont see Bush having 14 combined TDs this year or next.

Guess I didn't get your point then. But saying he "might" reach Westbrook's numbers over the next couple of seasons is laughable.First off, actually, it was 13 TDs, but no matter. As far as reaching Westbrook's "numbers" goes, if you are talking TDs only, sure, I'll give you that. Pretty easy to argue that Deuce, Colston, Horn, and Henderson are a notch above Buckhalter, Pinkston, Thrash, and Mitchell, so Bush is not necessarily counted on to be the scorer.

But beyond TDs, Reggie is on pace for 1,350 rush/rec yds. Westbrook's 3 season average (03, 04, and 05) is over 100 yds below that, and only in 04 did he exceed 1,350 yds.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

if he were to keep up this pace... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)......

Harrison has the season record with 143 (in 2002). 34 receptions in 5 games = 6.8 per game x 16 games = 109 receptions. A stretch to think he'll get close to 143, but definitely has a shot at Boldin's rookie record of 101 catches in 2003.

thanx for correction, SW...i inverted stats & thought i read 43, not 34 receptions through 5 games, which would have tracked closer to 140 through 16 games...breaking the reception records for a RB & rookie definitely look more viable...in that light, i don't think centers got too much MVP consideration when he broke recptions record... nor did boldin for breaking rookie recptions record... though i'm pretty sure they didn't play for teams that have enjoyed such a dramatic turnaround...i may well be overestimating bush's impact on the saints, though it is also possible some are underestimating...this thread does point to another question for historical relevance... have any rookies in past three decades or so received serious play as MVP candidates... dan marino, eric dickerson? boldin was already dismissed as MVP candidate...if it hasn't happened before, i agree that would make it seem more unlikely bush gets much (or any) recognition in this direction...i can appreciate the receptions record might be viewed as a hollow victory if it is accompanied by low YPC... it would be much more impressive if a RB did something like break the receiving YARDAGE record of rice (now i'm really getting into hypotheticals... bush isn't tracking for anywhere close to that)... sort of like if a rookie WR had poor receiving stats but somehow broke dickerson's rushing yardage record... THAT would get people's attention...

 

[MLBrandow]

I think the yards will be spread too thin between Bush, Deuce, Colston and Horn for Bush to win MVP even with the reception record. However, that some people have used the word bust when refering to Bush is laughable.

I agree with this.It's hard to bust when you're so overrated in the preseason, but I think he is living up to most competant people's expectations. I do admit the touchdowns seem a bit low, but it's not that he can't score them, it's that he's proven to be more effective as a decoy than as a ball-carrier. Why change something that seems to be working so well?

 

[Pnishthm]

I'm actually dumb-founded that this thread could even have been initiated ...The guy is an average RB at best.If you look at the facts, you cannot even state that he is the best backup RB in the NFL, let alone the best RB or anywhere close to an MVP candidate ... He has a paltry 7.3 ypc. Larry Johnson for instance has a ypc over 13!He has not figured out the NFL and so far with respect to running. He should be considered a horrible rusher with a 3.1 ypr; with nearly a 40% chance of a rush ending with less than 1 yard!Deuce behind the same line, in the same system, same scheme, with the same blockers has a ypr of nearly 5 ypr, and a ypc of 7.6; with a bit over a 20% chance for a rush to end with less than 1 yard.If Bush were to be considered as an actual WR, we would be laughing at him, his ypc is so bad. There are receivers with nearly 3 times the ypc and most are 2 times his ypc.On what basis can we possibly entertain the fact that he is even the MVP of the New Orleans special teams unit. He did score a TD last week without a doubt, but barely jogged and certainly made no spectacular moves. His teammates cleared a path so wide that my 91 year old grandmother could have run down that sideline untouched!Let's all admit that he is an exciting addition to the NFL, the New Orleans Saints, and that he can be electrifying to watch when he touches the field, there is a lot of anticipation for what he could do ... but let's not ignore the facts please ...

How about we not ignore the fact that the Saints are 4-1 and Reggie has a lot to do with that.

 

[Pnishthm]

Reggie Bush is the best combination of speed, elusiveness, explosion, hands, and route running of any rookie RB probably ever.As for as his yards per touch, he needs to adjust to the NFL in the running game. He needs to slow down and read the blocking much better. He bounces outside before the holes are open inside. He can't bust every play to the outside especially when the defense is expecting him to bounce every play to the outside. On the receiving end, the defense keys on him and swarms him when he catches the ball and since we all know he won't be running over multiple people, he won't have a lot of YPC unless he is in space. In addition, he runs routes when Larry Johnson catches screens and dump offs. The comparison between the two as receivers is not applicable.The main reasons for the success of the Saints offense is Brees, Bush, and the playcalling. Brees spreads the ball around to the open guy while Bush's presences creates those open guys. With no Bush, Brees has a lot less wide open people. The playcalling and play design utilizes opposing teams fear of Bush. McAllister's big run last week was a direct result of Brian Kelly running right past him to get to Bush on the reverse. He ran right by McAllister when he had the ball 7 yards downfield to get to Bush. I have seen numerous plays where defenders react to Bush on a route and their reactions open up lanes for Colston, Horn, and Henderson. The defense is playing well and deserves a lot of credit as well but the only player that is conceivably more important to the Saint's success than Reggie Bush is Drew Brees.

VERY

 

[Bri]

if he were to keep up this pace, he would shatter the league record for receptions by a RB... in fact, he could flirt with the league record for receptions WRS INCLUDED (i think close to 140)...if that happens, and he helps lead the saints to the playoffs (with brees, mcalister, colston), imo he would deserve mention as an MVP candidate... though mcnabb would have to get it if he maintains HIS pace...

yeah I noticed he was leading but didn't realize what that projects to, interesting, thanks.MVP wise I think if it's a Saint it's Brees

 

[Buckna]

I'm actually dumb-founded that this thread could even have been initiated ...

The guy is an average RB at best.

If you look at the facts, you cannot even state that he is the best backup RB in the NFL, let alone the best RB or anywhere close to an MVP candidate ...

He has a paltry 7.3 ypc. Larry Johnson for instance has a ypc over 13!

He has not figured out the NFL and so far with respect to running. He should be considered a horrible rusher with a 3.1 ypr; with nearly a 40% chance of a rush ending with less than 1 yard!

Deuce behind the same line, in the same system, same scheme, with the same blockers has a ypr of nearly 5 ypr, and a ypc of 7.6; with a bit over a 20% chance for a rush to end with less than 1 yard.

If Bush were to be considered as an actual WR, we would be laughing at him, his ypc is so bad. There are receivers with nearly 3 times the ypc and most are 2 times his ypc.

On what basis can we possibly entertain the fact that he is even the MVP of the New Orleans special teams unit. He did score a TD last week without a doubt, but barely jogged and certainly made no spectacular moves. His teammates cleared a path so wide that my 91 year old grandmother could have run down that sideline untouched!

Let's all admit that he is an exciting addition to the NFL, the New Orleans Saints, and that he can be electrifying to watch when he touches the field, there is a lot of anticipation for what he could do ... but let's not ignore the facts please ...

How about we not ignore the fact that the Saints are 4-1 and Reggie has a lot to do with that.

Doubtful it's A LOT. People forget the Saints were perennially a good team until last years meltdown due to Hurricane Katrina. Every year they were a pre-season favorite to break out and finally make the playoffs if they could just get their defense to step up. Here are the records for the last 5 years:2000 - 10-6

2001 - 7-9

2002 - 9-7

2003 - 8-8

2004 - 8-8

2005 - 3- 13

Bush is an excellent weapon and definitely helps the team as does adding Colston. But this team is doing much better because of two main things: no more Brooks and no more Haslett.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

Maybe you didnt get my point...

The point is Westbrook puts those numbers up and didnt stay healthy and he only started 8 games in his second year. I will say it again "If Bush can stay healthy he might reach Westbrook numbers over the next couple of seasons." I dont see Bush having 14 combined TDs this year or next.

Guess I didn't get your point then. But saying he "might" reach Westbrook's numbers over the next couple of seasons is laughable.First off, actually, it was 13 TDs, but no matter. As far as reaching Westbrook's "numbers" goes, if you are talking TDs only, sure, I'll give you that. Pretty easy to argue that Deuce, Colston, Horn, and Henderson are a notch above Buckhalter, Pinkston, Thrash, and Mitchell, so Bush is not necessarily counted on to be the scorer.

But beyond TDs, Reggie is on pace for 1,350 rush/rec yds. Westbrook's 3 season average (03, 04, and 05) is over 100 yds below that, and only in 04 did he exceed 1,350 yds.

First of all it was 14 combined TDs in 03 -- 7 rushing + 5 Rec + 2 PRs - pretty sure that equals 14 no matter where you are from. Lets not forget that was also the year that Buckhalter had 8 tds rushing.Now if Bush keeps with your average and he ends up with 1,340 yards thats equal to 4.76 per touch and 2ds not bad, Westbrook had 940 yards , was over 6 YPT in 03 and he had 14 TDs. Can Bush come close to these numbers ? As I said, I think he might if he CAN stay healthy.

Yes Westbrook has had injury problems, cant deny that. However he has averaged over 9 combined tds a year and over 1K combined yards with 1/4 they hype.

 

[kingmalaki]

Yay....Bush is leading the league in receptions!!

Has he scored from any of those. Oh..maybe not. Hmm, is his ypr average awesome. No, it's not. Hmmm.....

I have watched the Saints game. What I see is a team trying desperately to get a "gamebreaking" player some space by throwing him the ball a lot (since he is sucking at running the ball). I see a gamebreaker with a so-so ypr, meaning he hasn't broken one yet....meaning the plan isn't working. Again, the team is trying their best to give him chances in space because he is sucking at running the ball.

I am an old Oilers fan (run-n-shoot days) and I never thought Givers, Hill, Jeffries were all-world receivers because we threw them a lot of passes that they couldn't break.

 

[bumpman]

Doubtful it's A LOT. People forget the Saints were perennially a good team until last years meltdown due to Hurricane Katrina. Every year they were a pre-season favorite to break out and finally make the playoffs if they could just get their defense to step up. Here are the records for the last 5 years:

2000 - 10-6

2001 - 7-9

2002 - 9-7

2003 - 8-8

2004 - 8-8

2005 - 3- 13

Bush is an excellent weapon and definitely helps the team as does adding Colston. But this team is doing much better because of two main things: no more Brooks and no more Haslett.

Since we are on the topic of overstatements, I would say that the Saints have in no way resembled a "perennially" good team. Even the team's record over the past six years, which you conveniently provided above shows that the Saints have had a winning record twice in six years and only made the playoffs once. That is not a "perennially good team." A perennially mediocre team, perhaps. By the way, the biggest improvement to this team is the defense and the overachieving play of its LBs in particular.

 

[aldelgreco]

I am happy with Bush as my RB2/RB3. I drafted 1. L Jordan 2. R Bush 3. R Droughns 4. Westbrook (keeper)

so far, with how bad LJ and RD have looked, I have been happy with the 10 points a game that R bush is getting me.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

i have revised my thinking from starting a thread in previous instances & i may be here...

the points of several others are well taken that his raw numbers in a lot of rushing metrics are far from the mark with what we are usually accustomed to in previous candidates that warranted MVP mention...

i do think that bush has some (to borrow & generalize from another sport) intangibles that make others better like a magic johnson... that analogy may seem far fetched, but magic had unprecedented combo of height, size, power, handle, court vision, passing prowess & playmaking ability... he would exert tremendous pressure on defenses just by his presence... if he penetrated he would draw 2-3 defenders often leading to easy shot by wilkes or dunk by jabaar or worthy... bush may have unprecedented combo of receiving ability coupled with RB skills (i'm not sure, but it is possible he left college as more accomplished receiver than faulk or westbrook did at comparable stage of their careers... at any rate, even if he is in same category as faulk/westbrook as receiving weapon, & i think he is, that would be saying a lot... i'm also not sure if faulk was faulk & put up monster receiving numbers... like breaking the rookie & RB reception record numbers... when HE was a rookie)...

in a real sense, bush is creating lanes & opportunities for others (brees, deuce, colston) & making those around him better... of course it works both ways... if defenses didn't fear brees ability TO GET THE BALL TO BUSH, they would just ignore him & defense would focus on deuce as most dangerous weapon & my point would be rendered moot... and i don't want to downplay significance of deuce (revelation hos good he is cutting & powerfully he is running so soon after ACL?) & colston may well end up as ROY... & not just on his own team ( ), but against all his rookie peers at any position... he has been that good in early going (jennings has been very impressive, maroney has, leinart could get some play if he builds on KC game)...

the problem with MVP award is that football is so much of a team game... clearly it is the dynamic interaction between payton's playcalling, new pieces to the passing game puzzle of brees, bush & colston, deuce returning to form so quickly, as well as myriad other factors like D playing better, are all contributing to the saints startling turnaround... payton has to get recognition & be one of frontrunners for coach of the year if they continue to play as well & surprise...

BTW, in retrospect i agree that based on current trends bush may not & probably doesn't merit MVP consideration (& for umpteenth time i would give it to mcnabb, too, in a no-brainer)...

i do think that in MVP discussions impact, & by that i don't just mean individual metrics (though that is obviously one measure of impact & should deservedly be huge & probably primary material for decision), but things like impact on others & won-loss record should be included in decision.

imo it would be wrong to base decision entirely on individual stats completely in abstract & divorced from their record... lets just say that in my revised position, even if he doesn't warrant inclusion in short list, if the saints go 15-1 and he plays a key role during stretch (maybe even lead role, which is possible), he would be more worthy in my eyes of moving up the ladder & getting closer to that short list territory...

there... hope that wasn't too muddled & wishy washy a qualifier...

 

[Steve Dallas]

A LOT of those receptions have resulted from drop-off passes for minimal yardage.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

Reggie Bush probably has more on his plate learning curve wise than any rookie that has ever entered the league.

He's learning to play RB, WR, ST and be an integral part in every offensive facet of the game.

Give him a bit of time to learn.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Reggie Bush probably has more on his plate learning curve wise than any rookie that has ever entered the league.He's learning to play RB, WR, ST and be an integral part in every offensive facet of the game.Give him a bit of time to learn.

VERY Once he can eliminate some of the thinking that has to go along with learning all those positions then we will see what he really can do!

 

[kingmalaki]

i have revised my thinking from starting a thread in previous instances & i may be here...the points of several others are well taken that his raw numbers in a lot of rushing metrics are far from the mark with what we are usually accustomed to in previous candidates that warranted MVP mention...i do think that bush has some (to borrow & generalize from another sport) intangibles that make others better like a magic johnson... that analogy may seem far fetched, but magic had unprecedented combo of height, size, power, handle, court vision, passing prowess & playmaking ability... he would exert tremendous pressure on defenses just by his presence... if he penetrated he would draw 2-3 defenders often leading to easy shot by wilkes or dunk by jabaar or worthy... bush may have unprecedented combo of receiving ability coupled with RB skills (i'm not sure, but it is possible he left college as more accomplished receiver than faulk or westbrook did at comparable stage of their careers... at any rate, even if he is in same category as faulk/westbrook as receiving weapon, & i think he is, that would be saying a lot... i'm also not sure if faulk was faulk & put up monster receiving numbers... like breaking the rookie & RB reception record numbers... when HE was a rookie)... in a real sense, bush is creating lanes & opportunities for others (brees, deuce, colston) & making those around him better... of course it works both ways... if defenses didn't fear brees ability TO GET THE BALL TO BUSH, they would just ignore him & defense would focus on deuce as most dangerous weapon & my point would be rendered moot... and i don't want to downplay significance of deuce (revelation hos good he is cutting & powerfully he is running so soon after ACL?) & colston may well end up as ROY... & not just on his own team ( ), but against all his rookie peers at any position... he has been that good in early going (jennings has been very impressive, maroney has, leinart could get some play if he builds on KC game)...the problem with MVP award is that football is so much of a team game... clearly it is the dynamic interaction between payton's playcalling, new pieces to the passing game puzzle of brees, bush & colston, deuce returning to form so quickly, as well as myriad other factors like D playing better, are all contributing to the saints startling turnaround... payton has to get recognition & be one of frontrunners for coach of the year if they continue to play as well & surprise...BTW, in retrospect i agree that based on current trends bush may not & probably doesn't merit MVP consideration (& for umpteenth time i would give it to mcnabb, too, in a no-brainer)...i do think that in MVP discussions impact, & by that i don't just mean individual metrics (though that is obviously one measure of impact & should deservedly be huge & probably primary material for decision), but things like impact on others & won-loss record should be included in decision.imo it would be wrong to base decision entirely on individual stats completely in abstract & divorced from their record... lets just say that in my revised position, even if he doesn't warrant inclusion in short list, if the saints go 15-1 and he plays a key role during stretch (maybe even lead role, which is possible), he would be more worthy in my eyes of moving up the ladder & getting closer to that short list territory...there... hope that wasn't too muddled & wishy washy a qualifier...

Please never in life compare Bush to Magic again. Magic dominated from day 1. Bush is struggling with certain aspects of his game...mainly the most important one for his position. You may think Bush has the best combo of speed, agility, etc....but it has yet to translate on the field, outside of being a decoy for others (his main contribution). Magic main contribution was production...GREAT PRODUCTION, from day 1.