REP. CHENEY ACCUSES TRIBES OF “DESTROYING OUR WESTERN WAY OF LIFE” OVER SACRED GRIZZLY PROTECTIONS (1 Viewer)

[Sinn Fein]

REP. CHENEY ACCUSES TRIBES OF “DESTROYING OUR WESTERN WAY OF LIFE” OVER SACRED GRIZZLY PROTECTIONS

RIVERTON, Wyo. — On a momentous day for Tribal Nations, Congresswoman Liz Cheney (R-WY), the House Republican Conference Chairwoman, stated that the successful litigation by tribes and environmentalists to return the grizzly bear in Greater Yellowstone to the Endangered Species Act (ESA) “was not based on science or facts” but motivated by plaintiffs “intent on destroying our Western way of life.”

One of the largest tribal-plaintiff alliances in recent memory prevailed in the landmark case, Crow Tribe et al v. Zinke last September, when US District Judge Dana Christensen ruled in favor of the tribes and environmental groups after finding that the Trump Administration’s US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) had failed to abide by the ESA and exceeded its authority in attempting to remove federal protections from the grizzly. Tuesday, USFWS officially returned federal protections to the grizzly.

 

[Mile High]

So we armed all those teachers for nothing?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether the grizzly bear should be protected as an endangered species, and I have no idea whether the Trump administration followed proper protocol when making this determination.  Well actually, the fact that a court found that it didn't makes me adjust my priors pretty strongly.

That said, I don't care whether native tribes consider the grizzly sacred or not.  Religious beliefs should not form the basis of government policy one way or another.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Well, I think the irony is not whether we protect the grizzlies - but more about Liz complaining that the Tribes are destroying her idea of the Western way of life.

Given that western settlers effectively decimated the Tribe's way of life - I think the West is still pretty far ahead of the Tribes...

 

[Godsbrother]

Well, I think the irony is not whether we protect the grizzlies - but more about Liz complaining that the Tribes are destroying her idea of the Western way of life.

Given that western settlers effectively decimated the Tribe's way of life - I think the West is still pretty far ahead of the Tribes...

This was my initial reaction as well.   

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether the grizzly bear should be protected as an endangered species, and I have no idea whether the Trump administration followed proper protocol when making this determination.  Well actually, the fact that a court found that it didn't makes me adjust my priors pretty strongly.

That said, I don't care whether native tribes consider the grizzly sacred or not.  Religious beliefs should not form the basis of government policy one way or another.

Generally I agree that religious beliefs should not drive federal policy.  I am a big believer in the separation of church from state and I am myself a non-believer in religion, I find it base superstition, little different from belief, for instance, in magic.  Animism, sympathetic magic, they are interesting  in what they say about us and our development, but not something that should animate legal decisions now.  I do, however, give deference to tribal religions since we had treaties with these tribes and I think we ought to honor the spirit and letter of those deals since we have historically, and to our shame, not done so.

As for grizzlies, I like them.  They make the wild the wild.  As for trophy hunters, I have disdain for them.  As for extractive industries, well find a way to accomplish that purpose without scaring our natural heritage. If they have to work around the bears that is a cost they should bear.  If the economics are not there while respecting the ecosystem the economics are not there, not yet.  No worries, it will be at some later date.  Too bad if they have to defer to economic reality.  For too long those industries did not have to factor in all costs, leaving society to bear the burden of their destruction.  That they may have to calculate actual costs, great.

As for destruction of ways of life, well the tribes have ways of life, so too many westerners who enjoy the wild.  Not all westerners are rapacious members of the extractive industries.  Some perspective, please. 

 

[The Commish]

Well, I think the irony is not whether we protect the grizzlies - but more about Liz complaining that the Tribes are destroying her idea of the Western way of life.

Given that western settlers effectively decimated the Tribe's way of life - I think the West is still pretty far ahead of the Tribes...

This was my initial reaction as well.   

That's what I thought the point was as well  

 

[badmojo1006]

Not that it means anything, but when I opened the thread, there were 6 replies and 66 views

 

[Sinn Fein]

I have not read the court opinion- but I don’t think this is a religious freedom case. I think it is a US Treaty case - i.e. US is obligated to honor its treaties. 

But, I think we need to be careful when we start defining what “way of life” is more important. 

 

[That one guy]

Not that it means anything, but when I opened the thread, there were 6 replies and 66 views

Damn grizzlies and their satanic ways!  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

US District Judge Dana Christensen ruled in favor of the tribes and environmental groups after finding that the Trump Administration’s US Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) had failed to abide by the ESA and exceeded its authority in attempting to remove federal protections from the grizzly. Tuesday, USFWS officially returned federal protections to the grizzly.

Just another example of the Trump administration disgracefully ignoring the law. 

- But yeah, Liz Cheney can say 'you're destroying our way of life' and not even blink or throw up even a little. I don't know why irrationality is a feature of the Republican Party these days. It's just constantly insane. I'll put it down to ideological dogmatism, a kind of Maoism.

 

[jonessed]

I have not read the court opinion- but I don’t think this is a religious freedom case. I think it is a US Treaty case - i.e. US is obligated to honor its treaties. 

But, I think we need to be careful when we start defining what “way of life” is more important. 

It appears to be an ESA case.  I’m not sure what the proper way of removing an animal from the ES list is, but apparently it wasn’t done properly.

I imagine it will be appealed or perhaps they can just fix the missteps in the process.

 

[identikit]

Not that it means anything, but when I opened the thread, there were 6 replies and 66 views

I didn't post till now because I was looking over my shoulder all morning.

 

[Zow]

I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether the grizzly bear should be protected as an endangered species, and I have no idea whether the Trump administration followed proper protocol when making this determination.  Well actually, the fact that a court found that it didn't makes me adjust my priors pretty strongly.

That said, I don't care whether native tribes consider the grizzly sacred or not.  Religious beliefs should not form the basis of government policy one way or another.

I don’t think that was the point. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I don’t think that was the point. 

Sure I get that.  Liz Cheney said something stupid.  

I'm just responding to the rest of the article and the way the issue was framed.  When a group says that something is religiously sacred to them, I think we should respect their feelings but also give those feelings zero weight in policy considerations.  All of us understand that when it comes to Christianity.

 

[The General]

You get to hunt them but it has to be mano a mano. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Grizzly bears are not endangered 

As a hunter, sportsman and conservationist at heart, I love the grizzly bear. Ferocious, smart apex predator that simply cannot exist well around human populations. The problem that we have right now is that grizzly bears have learned at the sound of a gun shot or smell of a blood trail, food is at the end. They also have been conditioned that human's are not a threat, livestock, trash .... there is food there. If there are grizzly in the lower 48 they need to be managed by state G&F without political agenda. If there is a population that a state can handle (like the Yellowstone area) then through hunting allow management of the resource (grizzly) to control that population. Wolves too. G&F manage, overall, well the wildlife in their states. Allow the management at a STATE level, not Federal. 

 

[The General]

Grizzly bears are not endangered 

As a hunter, sportsman and conservationist at heart, I love the grizzly bear. Ferocious, smart apex predator that simply cannot exist well around human populations. The problem that we have right now is that grizzly bears have learned at the sound of a gun shot or smell of a blood trail, food is at the end. They also have been conditioned that human's are not a threat, livestock, trash .... there is food there. If there are grizzly in the lower 48 they need to be managed by state G&F without political agenda. If there is a population that a state can handle (like the Yellowstone area) then through hunting allow management of the resource (grizzly) to control that population. Wolves too. G&F manage, overall, well the wildlife in their states. Allow the management at a STATE level, not Federal. 

Personally don’t get hunting as a hobby but I respect it and don’t think it’s evil or anything. There are definitely ways to manage hunting that are both good for sport hunters and managing wildlife.

I disagree with a blanket statement that this list entirely a state right issue occasionally it needs to be handled at a higher level to ensure it is being done properly and effectively.

 

[Zow]

Sure I get that.  Liz Cheney said something stupid.  

I'm just responding to the rest of the article and the way the issue was framed.  When a group says that something is religiously sacred to them, I think we should respect their feelings but also give those feelings zero weight in policy considerations.  All of us understand that when it comes to Christianity.

I don't agree with the bolded. 

 

[Stealthycat]

Personally don’t get hunting as a hobby but I respect it and don’t think it’s evil or anything. There are definitely ways to manage hunting that are both good for sport hunters and managing wildlife.

I disagree with a blanket statement that this list entirely a state right issue occasionally it needs to be handled at a higher level to ensure it is being done properly and effectively.

I'll tell you this - if it wasn't for hunters there would be very little wildlife

We have financed/funded and orchestrated it all - from the 1920'2 onward when G&F commissions were founded, we as sportsman have been the only ones trying to save wildlife. 

We have done very well.

Federal Govt rarely if EVER does anything better than State, especially with Wildlife. I would think only migratory birds as an example of how they can assist 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I don't agree with the bolded. 

Can you come up with an example wherein Christian religious views should rightly influence policy?  I don't mean things like laws against murder and theft because those are easy to justify on secular grounds.  I'm thinking of things like prohibitions on sodomy or Sunday blue laws.

 

[[scooter]]

I don't agree with the bolded. 

Can you come up with an example wherein Christian religious views should rightly influence policy?  I don't mean things like laws against murder and theft because those are easy to justify on secular grounds.  I'm thinking of things like prohibitions on sodomy or Sunday blue laws.

I think the part Woz doesn't agree with is the part where you said "all of us understand that".

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think the part Woz doesn't agree with is the part where you said "all of us understand that".

That would be kind of weird, right?  I can't recall the last time anybody here argued otherwise.  Gay marriage?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

That would be kind of weird, right?  I can't recall the last time anybody here argued otherwise.  Gay marriage?

There are people who want to teach young-earth creationism in public schools. There are people who think caps on emissions are stupid because God gifted us the earth to do with as we please. And so on.

I don't know how many such people are on this forum, but it's not hard to find examples of people in the general public -- or in Congress -- who do not understand that Christian dogma should not drive public policy.

 

[Zow]

Can you come up with an example wherein Christian religious views should rightly influence policy?  I don't mean things like laws against murder and theft because those are easy to justify on secular grounds.  I'm thinking of things like prohibitions on sodomy or Sunday blue laws.

Gotcha.  Misunderstood what you were saying.* We're on the same page. 

*I thought you were somehow implying that everybody knows/agrees that Christian values shouldn't influence policy.  I was going to disagree and point to Falwell as Exh. A. 

 

[Zow]

There are people who want to teach young-earth creationism in public schools. There are people who think caps on emissions are stupid because God gifted us the earth to do with as we please. And so on.

I don't know how many such people are on this forum, but it's not hard to find examples of people in the general public -- or in Congress -- who do not understand that Christian dogma should not drive public policy.

Right.  This was my point. 

 

[Zow]

I think the part Woz doesn't agree with is the part where you said "all of us understand that".

Correct.  Ivan is right, but I don't agree that everybody else would agree that he's correct. 

 

[Gopher State]

Just another example of the Trump administration disgracefully ignoring the law. 

- But yeah, Liz Cheney can say 'you're destroying our way of life' and not even blink or throw up even a little. I don't know why irrationality is a feature of the Republican Party these days. It's just constantly insane. I'll put it down to ideological dogmatism, a kind of Maoism.

Dems need to jump on this, it could be a game changer for them in 2020

 

[wikkidpissah]

Good luck "doubling down" in Indian casinos now

 

[Osaurus]

Surely the bear lobbyists are working around the clock on a response. 

 

[moleculo]

Gtfo with "our" Western way of life.  Cheney is a carpetbagger from Virginia.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Dems need to jump on this, it could be a game changer for them in 2020

I think this administration’s constant law breaking should be an issue. No problem there.

 

[Mario Kart]

Damn those Liberals. It's policies like this that have not helped at all. The Short-faced Bear sends its regards.

 

[rockaction]

I'm sure this made the rounds, and it's not a good look, but worse stuff happens on both left and right in policy and academia everywhere, every day. I'm not sure what "Western" way she's referring to, which makes you think the whole rhetorical exercise isn't really in knickers, anyway, or we'd know exactly what it meant.  

 

[Osaurus]

I'm sure this made the rounds, and it's not a good look, but worse stuff happens on both left and right in policy and academia everywhere, every day. I'm not sure what "Western" way she's referring to, which makes you think the whole rhetorical exercise isn't really in knickers, anyway, or we'd know exactly what it meant.  

Considering where she was speaking, this isn’t exactly representative of the “West” as a whole anyway. Just dumb.

 

[rockaction]

Considering where she was speaking, this isn’t exactly representative of the “West” as a whole anyway. Just dumb.

I'm genuinely confused by what she means in that statement, nor am I sure what she means by the blurb, nor am I sure what context it is in. I'm not willing to grant much benefit of the doubt here, though like I said, I think worse stuff happens every day for the most part and this was linked to by Sinn Fein from "The Native News" so I'm not exactly sure how much weight to give any of this. Seems like nothing to me.  

 

[Osaurus]

I'm genuinely confused by what she means in that statement, nor am I sure what she means by the blurb, nor am I sure what context it is in. I'm not willing to grant much benefit of the doubt here, though like I said, I think worse stuff happens every day for the most part and this was linked to by Sinn Fein from "The Native News" so I'm not exactly sure how much weight to give any of this. Seems like nothing to me.  

It is. Just appealing to the locals imo

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I have done back country camping in the greater Yellowstone area for decades, just got back from a trip less than a month ago.  I've had encounters but never carried a weapon and only recently purchased bear spray after heading up to Glacier (population of grizzly bears over 500 in the park and on the trail we hiked their have been multiple attacks).  

Their is a legitimate threat for people who go back country and locals who have to deal with the issue...

... But then their is political pandering.

However...

The threat is real.  See video

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm sure this made the rounds, and it's not a good look, but worse stuff happens on both left and right in policy and academia everywhere, every day. I'm not sure what "Western" way she's referring to, which makes you think the whole rhetorical exercise isn't really in knickers, anyway, or we'd know exactly what it meant.  

I guess I just assumed that "Western" in this context meant "the culture of the western region of the United States" as opposed to "the culture that traces its roots back to ancient Athens."  But it's histrionic either way.

 

[timschochet]

I guess I just assumed that "Western" in this context meant "the culture of the western region of the United States" as opposed to "the culture that traces its roots back to ancient Athens."  But it's histrionic either way.

Country western music? 

 

[rockaction]

I guess I just assumed that "Western" in this context meant "the culture of the western region of the United States" as opposed to "the culture that traces its roots back to ancient Athens."  But it's histrionic either way.

I'll agree it's histrionic either way and keep my answer simple in that way. I don't really have a contention beyond that other than her colloquial use of "Western" to mean one of the other. I wish that could get cleaned up when we're following up the phrase with "...way of life..." especially given that her mother was chairman of the NEH at one point and emphasized "Western" culture in precisely the "going back to Athens" way, if I'm not mistaken.  

 

[ren hoek]

the cheney spawn

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Doing a bit of scouting in the hills outside of Story Wyoming this weekend. Saw a sow and her cub.  I gave them a very wide berth. I am wondering whether they will move off before elk season, or whether they will be denned up that early.  Winter comes early up there, particularly at around 8000 feet, but I imagine they will still be active in mid to late October.  The darn things can be rangy too so getting just one more hill over may not solve any com[plications if I bloody and elk up there.  Beautiful animals, appeared very healthy.

 

[pantherclub]

Wait a tic?  Those dummies in Wyoming elected Liz Cheney, like the daughter of ****?  They get what they deserve there then.   Didnt she sell out her own sister in order to get elected?   Godalmighty that family is crazy.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It was fun watching that mother and cub grazing on the heads of wildflowers across the way maybe 400 yards.  I could not tell, from my distance, which wildflowers they were munching to get who knows what vitamin or mineral, but they seemed content.  Driving back yesterday I turned on the radio and heard about El Paso and Dayton.  that made it a depressing drive.

 

[skycriesmary]

As disgusting as her comment is, she'll never be in the same class as her dad is. '...our western way of life'. GTFO with that.