Ronde Barber - Hall of Famer (1 Viewer)

[Premier]

I'm a Bucs homer, and for a while I thought all we would get from the past decade is Sapp and Brooks in the Hall. I considered Lynch to be pretty good, but probably outside of the Hall. Maybe one of those guys who gets in after 10 years or something.

But Barber continues to build a pretty insane resume.

Today was his 40th interception. He also has 25 career sacks, which makes him the only player to pull off that combo. The guys on the broadcast today were also speaking about his 200 consecutive career starts, which certainly speaks to his longevity. So...

Major player on a Super Bowl winner

40 interceptions

25 sacks (most ever by a cornerback)

5-time All-Pro

5-time Pro Bowl

Made the All-Decade team for the 2000s

And on another note...the guy is as good today as he was 5 years ago. Phenomenal athlete.

Thoughts?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Yeah, Barber's going to make it one day. May have to wait a few years but his resume is very strong. Dominant player in a dominant scheme for a long time.

 

[dcgangstas]

Yes on Ronde'.

Barber was far more physical than most CBs, and was cerebral in his approach for executing the Tampa-2 cover scheme.

 

[BobbyLayne]

HoF in my book

BTW, how many overall TDs? Think its 14 but not sure...7 INT 5 FUM returns 2 on blocked kicks...that is amazing.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Absolutely.

 

[switz]

Eventually... But nowhere near first ballot.

 

[Tau837]

I think he's a lock. I'm surprised the vote is 23-9 at this point... I'd like to hear the rationale from some of those voting no.

 

[jackdubl]

I voted no. Not familiar with his numbers, just never seemed like one of the tops at his position in any of his years.

 

[gump]

He also has the signature play.

Homer too...and I doubted it for a few years...but he's in now.

 

[Premier]

I voted no. Not familiar with his numbers, just never seemed like one of the tops at his position in any of his years.

Despite the fact he was on the All-Decade team?I mean, you kind of have to be regarded as one of the tops at your position at that point, no?

 

[Tau837]

I voted no. Not familiar with his numbers, just never seemed like one of the tops at his position in any of his years.

3 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections2000s All Decade teamMost sacks by NFL CBOnly player in NFL history with 25 or more sacks and 40 or more interceptionsMost consecutive starts by NFL CBJust for comparison purposes, consider Champ Bailey, who most people seem to think is a HOFer. Champ also has 3 1st team All Pro selections, along with 3 2nd team selections. Champ has 47 interceptions and 147 pass deflections, compared to Barber's 40 and 138, respectively. And Barber has a lot more sacks, tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and TDs. Barber also has a ring, which Champ does not.To be sure, Barber and Champ are used differently. But it's hard to reconcile anyone thinking Champ is in and Barber is not. (Or perhaps you don't think Champ will make it either?)

 

[jackdubl]

I voted no. Not familiar with his numbers, just never seemed like one of the tops at his position in any of his years.

3 1st team All Pro selections2 2nd team All Pro selections2000s All Decade teamMost sacks by NFL CBOnly player in NFL history with 25 or more sacks and 40 or more interceptionsMost consecutive starts by NFL CBJust for comparison purposes, consider Champ Bailey, who most people seem to think is a HOFer. Champ also has 3 1st team All Pro selections, along with 3 2nd team selections. Champ has 47 interceptions and 147 pass deflections, compared to Barber's 40 and 138, respectively. And Barber has a lot more sacks, tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, and TDs. Barber also has a ring, which Champ does not.To be sure, Barber and Champ are used differently. But it's hard to reconcile anyone thinking Champ is in and Barber is not. (Or perhaps you don't think Champ will make it either?)

I was hoping for some education on this one. Thanks.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

Deion Sanders has a pretty strong case now at the position, though will obviously be in the HoF before either Champ or Barber.A few more with potential over the next few years:Aeneas Williams -- 55 INTs and 9 TDs 8X Pro Bowl, 4X All Pro, 1990a All Decade TeamLester Hayes -- outside of the infamous rule that bears his name, a solid HoF candidate with 39 INTs, 2X Super Bowls, 5X Pro Bowls, 1980s All Decade team and 1980 Defensive Player of the Year.Eric Allen -- may not have the SB pedigree, but some really solid stats for the position: 54 INTs, 8 TDs, 6X Pro Bowl and 6X All Pro

 

[Tau837]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

Deion Sanders has a pretty strong case now at the position, though will obviously be in the HoF before either Champ or Barber.A few more with potential over the next few years:Aeneas Williams -- 55 INTs and 9 TDs 8X Pro Bowl, 4X All Pro, 1990a All Decade TeamLester Hayes -- outside of the infamous rule that bears his name, a solid HoF candidate with 39 INTs, 2X Super Bowls, 5X Pro Bowls, 1980s All Decade team and 1980 Defensive Player of the Year.Eric Allen -- may not have the SB pedigree, but some really solid stats for the position: 54 INTs, 8 TDs, 6X Pro Bowl and 6X All Pro

IMO Aeneas Williams should be a lock, but I am afraid he won't get the recognition since he played his first 10 seasons for the Cardinals.

 

[Terps2002]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

IMHO Charles Woodson is already a lock.575 Total Tackles, 12.5 Sacks, 91 PD, 47 Ints, 21 FF, 9FR, 11 Tds, 2009 Defensive Player of The Year. 6 Pro Bowls, 3 time first team All Pro selection, NFL def rookie of the year. NFL all decade team for the 2000's.Also had 2 catches as a wr for 2 1st downs , kick and punt returner and also has played safety in his career. He passes the sniff test for me.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

Deion Sanders has a pretty strong case now at the position, though will obviously be in the HoF before either Champ or Barber.A few more with potential over the next few years:

Aeneas Williams -- 55 INTs and 9 TDs 8X Pro Bowl, 4X All Pro, 1990a All Decade Team

Lester Hayes -- outside of the infamous rule that bears his name, a solid HoF candidate with 39 INTs, 2X Super Bowls, 5X Pro Bowls, 1980s All Decade team and 1980 Defensive Player of the Year.

Eric Allen -- may not have the SB pedigree, but some really solid stats for the position: 54 INTs, 8 TDs, 6X Pro Bowl and 6X All Pro

IMO Aeneas Williams should be a lock, but I am afraid he won't get the recognition since he played his first 10 seasons for the Cardinals.

Does that really matter? It shouldn't.Intangibles like the # of SB and playoff appearances/stats factor into any subjective stack rank of players, but do they really take that into account in the voting? Honest question, I have no idea.

 

[5Rings]

I'm shocked that this pretty good player for a long time is getting this much HOF support.

Canton is going to need another wing if all these type of players are let in.

Seriously people, stop and ask yourself:

Was he ever considered the best in the game, or at least at his position?

If no, move on.

 

[Premier]

Was he ever considered the best in the game, or at least at his position?If no, move on.

That's never been the measure for any Hall of Fame.

 

[dharmapunk]

Yeah, Barber's going to make it one day. May have to wait a few years but his resume is very strong. Dominant player in a dominant scheme for a long time.

Him and Brooks should get in. Sapp is overrated IMO.

 

[dharmapunk]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

IMHO Charles Woodson is already a lock.575 Total Tackles, 12.5 Sacks, 91 PD, 47 Ints, 21 FF, 9FR, 11 Tds, 2009 Defensive Player of The Year. 6 Pro Bowls, 3 time first team All Pro selection, NFL def rookie of the year. NFL all decade team for the 2000's.Also had 2 catches as a wr for 2 1st downs , kick and punt returner and also has played safety in his career. He passes the sniff test for me.

Totally agree with this. Woodson is a lock.

 

[stuckinthemuck]

What will it be like at the Barber's during Thanksgiving after Ronde gets in and Tiki doesn't?

 

[Tau837]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

Deion Sanders has a pretty strong case now at the position, though will obviously be in the HoF before either Champ or Barber.A few more with potential over the next few years:

Aeneas Williams -- 55 INTs and 9 TDs 8X Pro Bowl, 4X All Pro, 1990a All Decade Team

Lester Hayes -- outside of the infamous rule that bears his name, a solid HoF candidate with 39 INTs, 2X Super Bowls, 5X Pro Bowls, 1980s All Decade team and 1980 Defensive Player of the Year.

Eric Allen -- may not have the SB pedigree, but some really solid stats for the position: 54 INTs, 8 TDs, 6X Pro Bowl and 6X All Pro

IMO Aeneas Williams should be a lock, but I am afraid he won't get the recognition since he played his first 10 seasons for the Cardinals.

Does that really matter? It shouldn't.Intangibles like the # of SB and playoff appearances/stats factor into any subjective stack rank of players, but do they really take that into account in the voting? Honest question, I have no idea.

No, of course it shouldn't matter. My point is that because of that he played in relative obscurity and is not as well known to the voters. And I suspect that might hold him back. I hope it doesn't, because I think he is deserving.

 

[Tau837]

I'm shocked that this pretty good player for a long time is getting this much HOF support.

Canton is going to need another wing if all these type of players are let in.

Seriously people, stop and ask yourself:

Was he ever considered the best in the game, or at least at his position?

If no, move on.

He was voted as one of the two best CBs in the game 3 times, in the seasons he was 1st team All Pro. In addition, one could make the argument he was the best cover two CB in the game for a number of seasons.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

IMHO Charles Woodson is already a lock.575 Total Tackles, 12.5 Sacks, 91 PD, 47 Ints, 21 FF, 9FR, 11 Tds, 2009 Defensive Player of The Year. 6 Pro Bowls, 3 time first team All Pro selection, NFL def rookie of the year. NFL all decade team for the 2000's.Also had 2 catches as a wr for 2 1st downs , kick and punt returner and also has played safety in his career. He passes the sniff test for me.

Tackles and sacks don't tend to get much consideration for cornerbacks. Woodson's an interesting case. He's got some intangibles -- Heisman trophy winner, very famous college player, likable guy -- but I'm not sure he's going to make it. For starters, he was an AP first-team all-pro twice, ten years apart. In the prime of his career -- from ages 26 to 31 -- he missed a lot of time, made no Pro Bowls, and didn't stand out in any way. Most thought he was washed up as recently as before the '08 season. He really got by on name recognition for a lot of years. And unlike Barber, he didn't really play on great defenses. The best D he played on was probably last year's Packers team, which allowed over 50 points in a playoff loss.With Barber, he was a key part on an awesome defense for a bunch of years. Woodson was more of an individual standout who never was part of a great defense and had a very inconsistent career. Woodson was almost certainly more talented in the abstract sense, but I can't think of any measure where you'd say he had the better career.

 

[Tau837]

Tackles and sacks don't tend to get much consideration for cornerbacks. Woodson's an interesting case. He's got some intangibles -- Heisman trophy winner, very famous college player, likable guy -- but I'm not sure he's going to make it. For starters, he was an AP first-team all-pro twice, ten years apart. In the prime of his career -- from ages 26 to 31 -- he missed a lot of time, made no Pro Bowls, and didn't stand out in any way. Most thought he was washed up as recently as before the '08 season. He really got by on name recognition for a lot of years. And unlike Barber, he didn't really play on great defenses. The best D he played on was probably last year's Packers team, which allowed over 50 points in a playoff loss.With Barber, he was a key part on an awesome defense for a bunch of years. Woodson was more of an individual standout who never was part of a great defense and had a very inconsistent career. Woodson was almost certainly more talented in the abstract sense, but I can't think of any measure where you'd say he had the better career.

However, the DPOY award is pretty impressive. Although I personally felt Revis deserved to win, I think there was a solid case that Woodson was the second best defensive player last season, and I doubt that was ever true of Barber. Thus, I think it is arguable that Woodson's peak was higher.Also, if it's true that tackles and sacks don't get much consideration for CBs, what does exactly? Do forced fumbles and fumble recoveries get much consideration? Probably not. Do pass deflections get a lot of consideration? Probably not... not that they aren't relevant, but it's kind of an obscure stat. So what matters other than interceptions? Are you suggesting team, or defensive team, success is a big factor? And, if so, measured by what metric?

 

[FUBAR]

...Also, if it's true that tackles and sacks don't get much consideration for CBs, what does exactly? Do forced fumbles and fumble recoveries get much consideration? Probably not. Do pass deflections get a lot of consideration? Probably not... not that they aren't relevant, but it's kind of an obscure stat. So what matters other than interceptions? Are you suggesting team, or defensive team, success is a big factor? And, if so, measured by what metric?

I don't know if there is a metric but perception plays a big part and Champ is seen as one of the guys on D the offense plans around. There aren't too many with his level of impact - Ray-ray, Champ, Polomalu, Ed Reed, maybe Jason Taylor and Jared Allen? Stats don't tell the whole story with DBs. I'd like to see what Asante Samuel, Revis and Talib end up doing at the end of their careers.

 

[Tau837]

...Also, if it's true that tackles and sacks don't get much consideration for CBs, what does exactly? Do forced fumbles and fumble recoveries get much consideration? Probably not. Do pass deflections get a lot of consideration? Probably not... not that they aren't relevant, but it's kind of an obscure stat. So what matters other than interceptions? Are you suggesting team, or defensive team, success is a big factor? And, if so, measured by what metric?

I don't know if there is a metric but perception plays a big part and Champ is seen as one of the guys on D the offense plans around. There aren't too many with his level of impact - Ray-ray, Champ, Polomalu, Ed Reed, maybe Jason Taylor and Jared Allen? Stats don't tell the whole story with DBs. I'd like to see what Asante Samuel, Revis and Talib end up doing at the end of their careers.

I agree that perception plays a big part, but I don't think that's what Chase was getting at, since he was essentially saying Woodson is overrated... which defies the general perception of Woodson.I agree defenses plan around/for Champ. I think they also plan around/for Barber. And they planned around/for Woodson, Aeneas Williams, and most of the guys discussed in this thread.

 

[Premier]

Not that it really matters in the large context of things, but the HOF contacted the Bucs today for Barber's jersey from yesterday's game, for the 40/25 feat.

Pretty cool.

 

[gibfunk]

I'm shocked that this pretty good player for a long time is getting this much HOF support.

Canton is going to need another wing if all these type of players are let in.

Seriously people, stop and ask yourself:

Was he ever considered the best in the game, or at least at his position?

If no, move on.

He was not the best cover corner. But he is the best Cover 2 corner ever, no argument. He has the unique stats, and signature plays (2002 NFC Championship Game clinching TD return), and a Super Bowl. Also, last time I checked, Emmitt Smith wasn't the best RB ever. He was the most consistent. If we have to make that distinction, then a lot of players would never make the HOF.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Tackles and sacks don't tend to get much consideration for cornerbacks. Woodson's an interesting case. He's got some intangibles -- Heisman trophy winner, very famous college player, likable guy -- but I'm not sure he's going to make it. For starters, he was an AP first-team all-pro twice, ten years apart. In the prime of his career -- from ages 26 to 31 -- he missed a lot of time, made no Pro Bowls, and didn't stand out in any way. Most thought he was washed up as recently as before the '08 season. He really got by on name recognition for a lot of years. And unlike Barber, he didn't really play on great defenses. The best D he played on was probably last year's Packers team, which allowed over 50 points in a playoff loss.With Barber, he was a key part on an awesome defense for a bunch of years. Woodson was more of an individual standout who never was part of a great defense and had a very inconsistent career. Woodson was almost certainly more talented in the abstract sense, but I can't think of any measure where you'd say he had the better career.

However, the DPOY award is pretty impressive. Although I personally felt Revis deserved to win, I think there was a solid case that Woodson was the second best defensive player last season, and I doubt that was ever true of Barber. Thus, I think it is arguable that Woodson's peak was higher.Also, if it's true that tackles and sacks don't get much consideration for CBs, what does exactly? Do forced fumbles and fumble recoveries get much consideration? Probably not. Do pass deflections get a lot of consideration? Probably not... not that they aren't relevant, but it's kind of an obscure stat. So what matters other than interceptions? Are you suggesting team, or defensive team, success is a big factor? And, if so, measured by what metric?

I don't know anyone who grades cornerbacks on tackles. I think most would consider me a stats guy here and even I have no idea what the heck 575 total tackles means. Seriously. Is that good? Bad? Average. I have no clue. And there's zero chance anyone on the HOF committee has a clue, either. Whichever sportswriter presents his case -- presumably the GB one -- isn't going to wow the room with that stat. Sacks? They're nice, of course, but for the most part, who cares about one sack a season? Seriously -- Woodson is in his 13th season and has 12.5 sacks. Does that change the opinion on him of anyone on the planet? If anything, my initial reaction would be 12.5 sacks isn't very good for a CB. But again, who cares? It's one sack a season, no way a positive for a CB trying to make a HOF case.To me, awards aren't super important. To HOF voters they presumably are, but they're just indicative of good play. I'd rather focus on the underlying play than the awards. Revis won the ESPN DPOY award and Woodson won the AP DPOY award -- if those awards were reversed, it wouldn't affect how good of a player Woodson was. But for some voters, it would make a difference. I think that's silly, but Woodson did have a great year and that's what matters. I just don't know if he had anywhere near enough good ones.Pass deflections haven't been tracked for nearly long enough. And yes, fumble data is largely discarded. Interceptions are wildly overrated, and it's one of the reasons LeBeau got inducted. Woodson's INT totals are good but not great, so I'm not sure where that gets him.I think All-Pro selections matter. To some extent, Pro Bowl berths do, too. Defensive team success would be a factor, especially in the context of his team. Darrelle Revis was the only 1AP and one of only two Pro Bowlers on the best defense in the league last year. That's really impressive. I think some sliding scale of defensive success in the context of how talented the other defenders were is the best you can do for cornerbacks. And really, for most defensive players. The '04 Broncos were 9th in scoring defense, 8th in NY/A, 6th in pass yards and 4th in total yards, and Champ Bailey was one of only two Pro Bowlers that year. The other was Lynch, who was probably morally not a Pro Bowler. That's really impressive. The '04 Bucs were not a very good team; they went 5-11. Griese was the QB; Pittman and a washed up Alstott the running backs. Sapp was gone. The only Pro Bowlers on D were Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber, although Rice had a 12-sack season. But they ranked 2nd in net yards per attempt allowed, 1st in passing yards allowed, 5th in total yards and 9th in points scored. That's a sign to me that Ronde Barber was likely damn good that year, and he was a first-team All-Pro.

 

[gibfunk]

Tackles and sacks don't tend to get much consideration for cornerbacks. Woodson's an interesting case. He's got some intangibles -- Heisman trophy winner, very famous college player, likable guy -- but I'm not sure he's going to make it. For starters, he was an AP first-team all-pro twice, ten years apart. In the prime of his career -- from ages 26 to 31 -- he missed a lot of time, made no Pro Bowls, and didn't stand out in any way. Most thought he was washed up as recently as before the '08 season. He really got by on name recognition for a lot of years. And unlike Barber, he didn't really play on great defenses. The best D he played on was probably last year's Packers team, which allowed over 50 points in a playoff loss.With Barber, he was a key part on an awesome defense for a bunch of years. Woodson was more of an individual standout who never was part of a great defense and had a very inconsistent career. Woodson was almost certainly more talented in the abstract sense, but I can't think of any measure where you'd say he had the better career.

However, the DPOY award is pretty impressive. Although I personally felt Revis deserved to win, I think there was a solid case that Woodson was the second best defensive player last season, and I doubt that was ever true of Barber. Thus, I think it is arguable that Woodson's peak was higher.Also, if it's true that tackles and sacks don't get much consideration for CBs, what does exactly? Do forced fumbles and fumble recoveries get much consideration? Probably not. Do pass deflections get a lot of consideration? Probably not... not that they aren't relevant, but it's kind of an obscure stat. So what matters other than interceptions? Are you suggesting team, or defensive team, success is a big factor? And, if so, measured by what metric?

I don't know anyone who grades cornerbacks on tackles. I think most would consider me a stats guy here and even I have no idea what the heck 575 total tackles means. Seriously. Is that good? Bad? Average. I have no clue. And there's zero chance anyone on the HOF committee has a clue, either. Whichever sportswriter presents his case -- presumably the GB one -- isn't going to wow the room with that stat. Sacks? They're nice, of course, but for the most part, who cares about one sack a season? Seriously -- Woodson is in his 13th season and has 12.5 sacks. Does that change the opinion on him of anyone on the planet? If anything, my initial reaction would be 12.5 sacks isn't very good for a CB. But again, who cares? It's one sack a season, no way a positive for a CB trying to make a HOF case.To me, awards aren't super important. To HOF voters they presumably are, but they're just indicative of good play. I'd rather focus on the underlying play than the awards. Revis won the ESPN DPOY award and Woodson won the AP DPOY award -- if those awards were reversed, it wouldn't affect how good of a player Woodson was. But for some voters, it would make a difference. I think that's silly, but Woodson did have a great year and that's what matters. I just don't know if he had anywhere near enough good ones.Pass deflections haven't been tracked for nearly long enough. And yes, fumble data is largely discarded. Interceptions are wildly overrated, and it's one of the reasons LeBeau got inducted. Woodson's INT totals are good but not great, so I'm not sure where that gets him.I think All-Pro selections matter. To some extent, Pro Bowl berths do, too. Defensive team success would be a factor, especially in the context of his team. Darrelle Revis was the only 1AP and one of only two Pro Bowlers on the best defense in the league last year. That's really impressive. I think some sliding scale of defensive success in the context of how talented the other defenders were is the best you can do for cornerbacks. And really, for most defensive players. The '04 Broncos were 9th in scoring defense, 8th in NY/A, 6th in pass yards and 4th in total yards, and Champ Bailey was one of only two Pro Bowlers that year. The other was Lynch, who was probably morally not a Pro Bowler. That's really impressive. The '04 Bucs were not a very good team; they went 5-11. Griese was the QB; Pittman and a washed up Alstott the running backs. Sapp was gone. The only Pro Bowlers on D were Derrick Brooks and Ronde Barber, although Rice had a 12-sack season. But they ranked 2nd in net yards per attempt allowed, 1st in passing yards allowed, 5th in total yards and 9th in points scored. That's a sign to me that Ronde Barber was likely damn good that year, and he was a first-team All-Pro.

Knowledge folks. Knowledge.

 

[johnnyboy8102]

Champ and him will both get in. After them, might be awhile before another CB has a strong case.

IMHO Charles Woodson is already a lock.575 Total Tackles, 12.5 Sacks, 91 PD, 47 Ints, 21 FF, 9FR, 11 Tds, 2009 Defensive Player of The Year. 6 Pro Bowls, 3 time first team All Pro selection, NFL def rookie of the year. NFL all decade team for the 2000's.Also had 2 catches as a wr for 2 1st downs , kick and punt returner and also has played safety in his career. He passes the sniff test for me.

I agree 100% but your numbers are a bit off. Woodson has 791 tackles (668 solo), 157 pd, 26 ff, 10 fr, 12.5 sacks, 21.5 stuffs, 47 int, 11 td.

 

[Csonka4life]

Considering corner backs are undervalued by the voters he will have to wait for a few years. Roger Wherli had to wait for many years and he was of similar quality. Also being voted on the all decade team doesn't mean that you will make the hall. Dave Butz is on one for the 80's and really hasn't gotten that close to the hall and John David Crowe was on the 60's team and is an after thought for the hall.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

After Aeneas Williams gets in I'll entertain this question.