Should the Chargers dump AJ Smith and/or Norv Turner? (1 Viewer)

[GregR]

Saw the comments in the bumped Marty-ball Chargers thread about the deterioration of talent, and a few minutes later listened to Peter King and Mike Florio discussing the Chargers and the possibility of cleaning out the front office.

So I'll pose the question both to the Chargers fans, and to everyone in general... with the course the Chargers have been on, do you think they should be looking to replace AJ Smith and/or Norv Turner at the end of the season? Obviously there is room to turn things around this season still, but let's take a poll just based on where things stand today.

I'm curious to see how actual Chargers fans answer compared to the Shark Pool at large, so will split out the answers for both groups.

 

[Tau837]

IMO this would be a better poll once the season is over.

I voted under the assumption that the team fails to make the playoffs. I voted yes to fire both of them.

Everyone tends to blame Turner, but around here it is rare that Smith gets blamed for anything other than the VJax situation last year. I assume it was my post on the deterioration of talent that you referred to in the OP. I think A.J. deserves significant blame here... plus, he hired Norv, so if Norv is to be fired, that reflects negatively on Smith.

I have defended Norv around here, not because I think he is a great coach, but because I think he gets more criticism than he deserves. That said, I think missing the playoffs two years in a row in that division (and with the team that was viewed as the favorite to win the division) is enough to warrant a change.

 

[TS Garp]

IMO this would be a better poll once the season is over.I voted under the assumption that the team fails to make the playoffs. I voted yes to fire both of them.Everyone tends to blame Turner, but around here it is rare that Smith gets blamed for anything other than the VJax situation last year. I assume it was my post on the deterioration of talent that you referred to in the OP. I think A.J. deserves significant blame here... plus, he hired Norv, so if Norv is to be fired, that reflects negatively on Smith.I have defended Norv around here, not because I think he is a great coach, but because I think he gets more criticism than he deserves. That said, I think missing the playoffs two years in a row in that division (and with the team that was viewed as the favorite to win the division) is enough to warrant a change.

I agree. I do think Norv gets criticized unfairly and has never gotten credit for the times he's succeeded, but he needs to go at this point. His teams seem to lack any sense of urgency/killer instinct and a change is badly needed. Man, I wish the Chargers would've hired Jim Harbaugh (which would have been a natural, as he played for us and started his coaching career at USD). But I think the AJ Smith firing is even more needed. His track record in the draft over the last 5 years is poor, especially in the first couple of rounds. And his general arrogance/surliness isn't playing well anymore. This team needs fresh leadership in the worst way. Just sad that they had so much talent and never managed to win (or even get to) a Super Bowl. They had a pretty wide window of time in which to get it done, but that window is closed, and it's time for them to reload.

 

[Raider Nation]

NO!!! Keep them both forever.

 

[EscoRandyRednecks]

Regardless of what Norv's done...I want a passionate coach...someone that freakin inspires...he's a smart guy but just a bore of a soul

 

[Sebowski]

Midseason? No way. End of the season? Maybe. Depends how they finish. They are only one game back in the division, and essentially still control their own destiny. If they don't make the playoffs? Fire them both.

 

[valhallan]

First - Greg, you are the man.

Second - AJ Smith is the culprit. Until he's gone, the team will be undermined.

 

[Polar Dude]

Before this season started, many people thought this team had the talent to win the AFC and perhaps the Super Bowl. That would seem to suggest that AJ has been doing a good enough job at stocking the shelves. To consistently underachieve with one of the top rosters in the game nearly every year sounds like a coaching problem.

As I've said in the Chargers thread, I still think that Norv was their best coaching option at the time. I just never imagined that they would stubbornly stick by him when better coaches were readily available and Norv had proven he wasn't up to the task. Of course, that decision is mostly on AJ, so he's got to be accountable there.

 

[Gatorman]

If you fire AJ, he will be GMing another team about 3 hours later (miami please)

That team has a lot of talent, yet underachieves. That is on the HC. Now, AJ picked Norv so they will need an owner with a little moxie to help in that idea, but not get in the way of his drafts.

On both sides of the ball, the chargers have players that not only play well, but play well when they go to other teams. they do not overspend, and they tend to have "talent in waiting" when their current talent starts to get long in the tooth.

probably the only knock on this team is they let guys go in free agency rather than getting trade value for them, but otherwise, it is a front office that rivals that in new england and philly as far as I am concerned.

They need a Sean Payton like coach. Someone with balls rather than a wonkish guy like norv. (Imagine if they had hired rex ryan as coach there)

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

You don't fire AJ, that would be a big mistake. If you need/have to fire someone after the season is over, you fire Norv Turner. However, you don't just fire Norv Turner without knowing who you can get to replace.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

NO!!! Keep them both forever.

 

[Fensalk]

The Chargers have not selected a pro bowler in the draft since 2006, when they grabbed two: Antonio Cromartie in round 1 and Marcus McNeill in round 2. Realize that we're not asking for an ALL-PRO selection, just a pro bowl selection.

I went ahead and listed teams that have not drafted (or found via rookie FA) a pro bowler from 2007-2010:

Bengals

Colts

Jaguars

CHARGERS

Rams

Seahawks

The Bengals have one in AJ Green before the year is over from the 2011 draft if he puts up over 1000 yards and 10+ TDs.

This is a brutal group to be in. I think a strong case can be made that AJ Smith should be fired.

 

[Amused to Death]

You don't fire AJ, that would be a big mistake. If you need/have to fire someone after the season is over, you fire Norv Turner. However, you don't just fire Norv Turner without knowing who you can get to replace.

Norv Turner has had more success (regular season & post season) during his tenure with the Chargers then Andy Reid has over the same time period, with less talent.

 

[Gr00vus]

That team has a lot of talent, yet underachieves.

No it really doesn't have a lot of talent. It used to, but most of it is either gone or has been denigrated by age/injuries. A.J. has been whiffing badly in the early rounds of the draft for a while now. And while he does good work with later rounds, undrafted free agents, and the occasional scrap heap vet, he's not finding gems there much anymore, just decent rosterable guys. Contrast to the true top teams in the league and he's not doing great - better than average. So I guess you could do worse, but how long do you want to stay in the same place? Because as long as A.J. is here this is the type of team you're going to have and possibly that means Norv too.As a Charger fan, I voted get rid of them both.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

AJ Smith's drafts looked a lot better when Buddy Nix was director of college scouting.

That said, while the talent level isn't what it was in 2006, I don't think you can blame Smith for the decline of Shawne Merriman and Antonio Cromartie. Two guys went from being among the best in the league at their positions to being pretty much useless. That makes a huge difference. And the Chargers haven't completely whiffed in the draft over the last five years: Eric Weddle is among the best safeties in the league, Ryan Mathews and Donald Butler look like potential studs who've spent more time hurt than healthy so far, and Jacob Hester, Vaughn Martin, Cam Thomas, Corey Luiget, and Luis Vasquez (and Scott Chandler) look like decent NFL starters. (Maybe Vincent Brown, too.) The last five draft classes have been underwhelming on the whole, for sure, but not exactly Matt Millen territory. Given the strength of the 2004-2006 drafts, I'm not ready to say that Smith is a poor talent evaluator.

The Chargers are always in good salary cap shape. Smith avoided giving Merriman and Cromartie big contracts when many fans felt he should have locked them up long-term (while they were studs). Maybe Vincent Jackson will be added to that list of dodged bullets.

The Chargers' roster isn't as star-studded as it was in 2006, but it's still talented enough that they should have sailed through the AFC West last season, and they should be sailing through the division this season. Execution appears to be the problem much more than a lack of talent.

If the Chargers don't right the ship fast, finish the season strong and win at least one playoff game, I think the Norv experiment should end. I know that's not going out on a limb, but I agree with those who say that Norv gets more criticism than he deserves. Still, even if he's merely a below-average coach (instead of the worst of all time — which he's not), I think a change is in order.

 

[Gr00vus]

If the Chargers don't right the ship fast, finish the season strong and win at least one playoff game, I think the Norv experiment should end. I know that's not going out on a limb, but I agree with those who say that Norv gets more criticism than he deserves. Still, even if he's merely a below-average coach (instead of the worst of all time — which he's not), I think a change is in order.

Do you think they can get rid of Norv without getting rid of A.J?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

If the Chargers don't right the ship fast, finish the season strong and win at least one playoff game, I think the Norv experiment should end. I know that's not going out on a limb, but I agree with those who say that Norv gets more criticism than he deserves. Still, even if he's merely a below-average coach (instead of the worst of all time — which he's not), I think a change is in order.

Do you think they can get rid of Norv without getting rid of A.J?

I think it depends on whether AJ agrees that they should get rid of Norv. (If he doesn't, I'd listen to his reasoning. Depending on how persuasive it is, I'd get rid of both or neither.)

 

[Polar Dude]

They need a Sean Payton like coach. Someone with balls rather than a wonkish guy like norv. (Imagine if they had hired rex ryan as coach there)

I'm in the Fire Norv/ Keep AJ crowd, but I also think that AJ's ego keeps this franchise from being all it can be. His desire to be THE voice in the organization would probably keep him from bringing in a coach "with balls." It's a bit similar to how Jerry Jones' ego has limited the Cowboys since Jimmy Johnson's departure and how Al Davis kept the Raiders from being more successful in the final years before his passing.

 

[CalBear]

Everyone tends to blame Turner, but around here it is rare that Smith gets blamed for anything other than the VJax situation last year. I assume it was my post on the deterioration of talent that you referred to in the OP. I think A.J. deserves significant blame here... plus, he hired Norv, so if Norv is to be fired, that reflects negatively on Smith.I have defended Norv around here, not because I think he is a great coach, but because I think he gets more criticism than he deserves. That said, I think missing the playoffs two years in a row in that division (and with the team that was viewed as the favorite to win the division) is enough to warrant a change.

I give Smith blame for firing Schottenheimer in the first place and hiring a mediocre retread in his place. His ego created that situation and the holdout situations, and because of it he wasted a ton of money on Sproles, who they then didn't use and allowed to walk.

 

[Gr00vus]

Do you think they can get rid of Norv without getting rid of A.J?

I think it depends on whether AJ agrees that they should get rid of Norv. (If he doesn't, I'd listen to his reasoning. Depending on how persuasive it is, I'd get rid of both or neither.)

I agree with this, though I think the reasons in favor of keeping Norv are becoming vanishingly small.

 

[massraider]

If the Chargers don't right the ship fast, finish the season strong and win at least one playoff game, I think the Norv experiment should end. I know that's not going out on a limb, but I agree with those who say that Norv gets more criticism than he deserves. Still, even if he's merely a below-average coach (instead of the worst of all time — which he's not), I think a change is in order.

Do you think they can get rid of Norv without getting rid of A.J?

Whoa, is AJ really that married to Norv?

 

[Gr00vus]

If the Chargers don't right the ship fast, finish the season strong and win at least one playoff game, I think the Norv experiment should end. I know that's not going out on a limb, but I agree with those who say that Norv gets more criticism than he deserves. Still, even if he's merely a below-average coach (instead of the worst of all time — which he's not), I think a change is in order.

Do you think they can get rid of Norv without getting rid of A.J?

Whoa, is AJ really that married to Norv?

Up to this point A.J. and Spanos have done nothing but express their love for Norv effusively. I don't know why Spanos loves him so much at this point, but Norv is A.J.'s #####, and A.J.'s ego is involved with Norv as his guy.

 

[ldizzle]

as a charger fan i was torn watching the SD vs DEN game. It was a win win. If they win they are still in it, but if they lose they will have to fire Norv. I can't see them keeping him another year after missing the playoffs 2 years in a row in a cake division. I wonder how Cowher or Gruden would do with this team...

ETA: i dont really like AJ but i say keep him for the time bieng and see what a decent coach could do with the talent they have. They really should have someone else work the contract negotiations though...

 

[Gr00vus]

as a charger fan i was torn watching the SD vs DEN game. It was a win win. If they win they are still in it, but if they lose they will have to fire Norv. I can't see them keeping him another year after missing the playoffs 2 years in a row in a cake division. I wonder how Cowher or Gruden would do with this team...ETA: i dont really like AJ but i say keep him for the time bieng and see what a decent coach could do with the talent they have. They really should have someone else work the contract negotiations though...

I don't know if A.J. and a legit championship quality HC can co-exist. I seriously doubt Cowher would even return a phone call considering how Marty went out (Cowher basically grew up professionally under Marty).The other silver lining (as I mentioned in the Charger thread) is the Broncos are going to be forced to go with Tebow as their starting QB next year, possibly forgoing taking a shot at drafting a legitimate QB as well. I don't think Tebow is a long term solution, so that might set the Broncos franchise back for another season or two.

 

[ldizzle]

Rotoworld:

According to the San Diego Union-Tribune's Kevin Acee, Chargers President Dean Spanos feels he has "no choice" but to fire coach Norv Turner. Acee reports Spanos will "almost certainly" fire GM A.J. Smith, as well. Before the Bolts lost to Denver in overtime at home last week, Acee reported it would take a "miracle turnaround" for Turner to save his job. Technically still in the race for the AFC West, the Chargers need a near total collapse from the Raiders to make the playoffs for the fourth time in five years under Turner.

Ding dong the witch is dead...

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Norv is not an HC. He is a QB coach/OC.

AJ Smith is a good GM, a bull-headed one but a good one none-the-less.

I hope Norv is gone, If they get rid of AJ who do they replace him with?

 

[fantasy stud]

You don't fire AJ, that would be a big mistake. If you need/have to fire someone after the season is over, you fire Norv Turner. However, you don't just fire Norv Turner without knowing who you can get to replace.

Norv Turner has had more success (regular season & post season) during his tenure with the Chargers then Andy Reid has over the same time period, with less talent.

I completely disagree that Philly had more talent than S. Diego during the entire N. Turner tenure. Also, S. Diego has had the luxury of being in a terrible division which also translates into a easier schedule

 

[Riffraff]

Norv is not an HC. He is a QB coach/OC.AJ Smith is a good GM, a bull-headed one but a good one none-the-less.I hope Norv is gone, If they get rid of AJ who do they replace him with?

http://m.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/dec/02/looking-more-smith-join-turner-unemployment-least-/ This article thinks is Norv 100% gone, AJ is at about 75/25 to be gone. Article thinks AJ could end up in Oakland or St Louis. With St Louis' GM Devaney coming back to the Chargers where he was the Director of Player Personnel.

 

[Polar Dude]

If you fire AJ, he will be GMing another team about 3 hours later

I'd give it a week.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Raiders | Expected to show interest in A.J. Smith

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 08:27:21 -0800



The Oakland Raiders are expected to consider San Diego Chargers general manager A.J. Smith for their vacant general manager position during the offseason.



0 Comments | Share: Source: The San Diego Union-Tribune - Kevin Acee





Chargers | Have not made decision on GM

Sat, 03 Dec 2011 08:24:48 -0800



The San Diego Chargers have not decided whether they will consider firing general manager A.J. Smith or keep him around after the season.



0 Comments | Share: | Source: The San Diego Union-Tribune - Kevin Acee



Read more: http://www.kffl.com/...1#ixzz1fWOEKMwc

 

[Raider Nation]

Just announced that they are both staying.

 

[zallen]

If I'm a Chargers fan (which I'm not), I'm seriously bummed right now.

 

[scott72]

Shocked..I'd be crazy pissed if I was a Charger fan..

 

[zallen]

Isn't this the same organization that fired Marty Shottenheimer after his team went 14-2 in the regular season?

 

[Raider Nation]

Isn't this the same organization that fired Marty Shottenheimer after his team went 14-2 in the regular season?

That was a personality clash and not results-oriented, obviously.Spanos genuinely likes both of these men.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Just announced that they are both staying.

ah, the silver lining in that embarrasing season ending loss.

 

[Raider Nation]

Just announced that they are both staying.

ah, the silver lining in that embarrasing season ending loss.

No gloating allowed after that beatdown. We suck. They suck.

 

[Gr00vus]

Just announced that they are both staying.

ah, the silver lining in that embarrasing season ending loss.

No gloating allowed after that beatdown. We suck. They suck.

I think everybody in the AFC West lost this week. The Broncos will be stuck with Tebow for a while, the Raiders choked a playoff appearance away, the Chargers are stuck with Turner and Smith for another year, the Chiefs might stick with Romeo now.

 

[Fensalk]

Just announced that they are both staying.

ah, the silver lining in that embarrasing season ending loss.

No gloating allowed after that beatdown. We suck. They suck.

I think everybody in the AFC West lost this week. The Broncos will be stuck with Tebow for a while, the Raiders choked a playoff appearance away, the Chargers are stuck with Turner and Smith for another year, the Chiefs might stick with Romeo now.

One of them must make the playoffs next year.

 

[tommyGunZ]

<---------- This guy thinks they made the right decision. I'm not clamoring for Norv's bust in Canton, but I think he's a far better coach than given credit for. The talent on the Chargers rosters is vastly overrated at this point; this isn't even close to the stacked '06 and '07 squads Norv inherited. He's done a fantastic job with Rivers overall and despite perception, I think he does a fantastic job calling plays.

There is a long list of problems for the '10 and '11 Chargers, but head coach isn't one of them.

 

[CalBear]

Isn't this the same organization that fired Marty Shottenheimer after his team went 14-2 in the regular season?

That was a personality clash and not results-oriented, obviously.Spanos genuinely likes both of these men.

Translation: Toe the company line and you get to keep your job even if you suck. Challenge the leadership and you're gone.Typical behavior in bad organizations that want to stay bad.

 

[Judge Smails]

<---------- This guy thinks they made the right decision. I'm not clamoring for Norv's bust in Canton, but I think he's a far better coach than given credit for. The talent on the Chargers rosters is vastly overrated at this point; this isn't even close to the stacked '06 and '07 squads Norv inherited. He's done a fantastic job with Rivers overall and despite perception, I think he does a fantastic job calling plays.There is a long list of problems for the '10 and '11 Chargers, but head coach isn't one of them.

I disagree with this on so many levels I don't know where to begin.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

<---------- This guy thinks they made the right decision. I'm not clamoring for Norv's bust in Canton, but I think he's a far better coach than given credit for. The talent on the Chargers rosters is vastly overrated at this point; this isn't even close to the stacked '06 and '07 squads Norv inherited. He's done a fantastic job with Rivers overall and despite perception, I think he does a fantastic job calling plays.There is a long list of problems for the '10 and '11 Chargers, but head coach isn't one of them.

The guys a Great OC, HC material he is not.

 

[Polar Dude]

<---------- This guy thinks they made the right decision. I'm not clamoring for Norv's bust in Canton, but I think he's a far better coach than given credit for. The talent on the Chargers rosters is vastly overrated at this point; this isn't even close to the stacked '06 and '07 squads Norv inherited. He's done a fantastic job with Rivers overall and despite perception, I think he does a fantastic job calling plays.There is a long list of problems for the '10 and '11 Chargers, but head coach isn't one of them.

What are your expectations for 2012 then?

 

[Gr00vus]

The talent on the Chargers rosters is vastly overrated at this point; this isn't even close to the stacked '06 and '07 squads Norv inherited.There is a long list of problems for the '10 and '11 Chargers, but head coach isn't one of them.

So why would you want to keep the G.M. then? He's been sucking it since about 2006 - right around the time (or just shortly thereafter) Butler and Nix no longer had any influence.