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?
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Smoltz and Glavine (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
- Start date
Eephus
Footballguy
For Glavin, it'll depend a lot on who else is eligible in their first year class. Glavine has 300 Ws and two CYAs but was never as dominant as Maddux. I think Glavine's case is stronger than someone like Don Sutton who took five tries to make it into the Hall.Smoltz will have a tougher time unless he finishes strong. Even if he won 20 games each of the three years he spent as a closer, he'd still be a season or two short of 300 wins. His CYA shares are pretty low as well. He's a lot closer to Schilling and Mussina than Maddux and Glavine IMHO.
dparker713
Footballguy
Most certainly, yes.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
Maddux: 4853 IP, 3.12 ERA, 5.8 k/9, 1.3 BB/9, 172.1 WARP-3Glavine: 4367 IP, 3.50 ERA, 4.9 K/9, 2.9 BB/9, 129.7 WARP-3
Smoltz: 3394 IP, 3.25 ERA, 7.7 K/9, 2.2 BB/9, 125.8 WARP-3
Mussina: 3394 IP, 3.71 ERA, 6.7 K/9, 1.5 BB/9, 126.8 WARP-3
Schilling: 3261 IP, 3.46 ERA, 8.0 K/9, 1.5 BB/9, 113.9 WARP-3
Wins are a horrible, horrible, horrible way to evaluate pitchers. Terrible. Especially when one of those pitchers was a closer for four years.
Look at the above and tell me which of the Atlanta three are closer to Mussina and Schilling.
It's not Maddux or Smoltz. Glavine pitches 1000 innings more, yet adds only 4 more wins? And he's better?
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
You can't judge Smoltz on wins because he spent a couple years as a closer (and one of the best in the league). Smoltz gets in easily. Glavine is on the bubble.
Eephus
Footballguy
I'm not saying it's right, but HoF voters have historically been overly concerned about wins when it comes to SPs. Glavine is a cinch for the Hall because of the 300 win credential and to a lesser extent the two CYAs.Smoltz has statistically been a better pitcher but he's lacking the eye catching career marks that seem to sway the voters. He's unlikely to end up w/ more than 225 career wins & low 3000s in SOs, he has one 20 game season, one CYA, never led the league in ERA. The years as a closer show his versatility but may end up hurting Smoltz when it comes to the HoF. The most memorable game of his career ended w/ a no decision on the losing side.Keys Myaths said:
The selection process is notoriously non-objective. I think Smoltz will eventually get in as he should, but he doesn't have the certainty of Maddux or the near certainty of Glavine.
littletank
Footballguy
Smoltz is in easy. No other pitcher has done what he has done with wins and saves.
Eephus
Footballguy
Eckersley down?
dparker713
Footballguy
Smoltz was never a mediocre starter though. He was always a front of the rotation guy and he wasn't demoted to the pen, he went there for health concerns.
Eephus
Footballguy
Eck has only 13 fewer career Ws than Smoltz, with 2 1/2 times the SVs. They both have one season with 20 Wins and one Cy Young. Eckersley adds an AL MVP award to the mix.Eckersley ranged from very effective to mediocre as a starter. Two years before he moved to the pen, he put up a 128 ERA+ and a sub 1 WHIP. He followed that with a poor year culminating in a trade to Oakland for Brian Guinn, Dave Wilder and Mark Leonette. Then he became the best reliever of all time.
dparker713
Footballguy
He may only have 13 fewer wins, but he has 24 more losses. Smoltz is clearly the better starter. As a closer he doesnt have the length of service of Eckersley, but he was just as dominant in 2003 as any reliever has been. As for greatest reliever of all time, I'll gladly take Fingers, Wilhelm or Gossage before any modern closer.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Buster Olney was just talking about this very topic today. 
He said that we (fans) might want to make hotel reservations for Cooperstown for 2014, as it's likely that these three guys will all go in together at that time. He speculated that this would be the last season for each of them, as Maddux and Glavine are struggling, and Smoltz's injuries should make this the end of the line for him. He did not even mention the possibility that any of them wouldn't be first-ballot guys, so I'm going to assume that he thinks they're all in.
He said that we (fans) might want to make hotel reservations for Cooperstown for 2014, as it's likely that these three guys will all go in together at that time. He speculated that this would be the last season for each of them, as Maddux and Glavine are struggling, and Smoltz's injuries should make this the end of the line for him. He did not even mention the possibility that any of them wouldn't be first-ballot guys, so I'm going to assume that he thinks they're all in.
Your Mother
Footballguy
I don't think any non-Braves fan really cares that much.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/20...anta-aces_N.htm
ATLANTA — It's like the Supremes singing one last time in Motown, or Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman shadow-boxing in the ring again at Madison Square Garden.
For the first time in six years, and perhaps the final time, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz were reunited Tuesday in Atlanta — the home of their pitching excellence.
"You're talking about the greatest rotation of all-time," says Leo Mazzone, the Braves' pitching coach during their 10-year era together. "You will never see anything like that again."
The three pitchers combined to win six Cy Young awards, 454 games and save 65 games from 1993-2002. They led the Braves to a division title every year, winning one World Series championship and three National League pennants.
"We just knew we were going to win every year," Maddux says. "We knew it in spring training. It was just a question of what day in September we were going to clinch."
The trio broke up when Glavine left the organization after 18 years, signing with the New York Mets before the 2003 season, only to return this year. Smoltz, who was traded from the Detroit Tigers for Doyle Alexander as a minor-league in 1987, never left. And Maddux, who spent 11 years with the Braves after signing as a free agent in 1992, is with the San Diego Padres.
"It would have been great for all of us to stay together, age together and go out of the game together," Glavine says, "but it didn't happen. As long as Ted (Turner) owned the team, I think there was a reasonable amount of belief that we could all stay together. Once Ted sold the team, and it became a corporate thing, it became less likely.
"It's just neat to think that somewhere down the road we're going to be reunited again.
"And in a very special place."
Maddux, 42, has yet to declare whether this is his final season, and likely won't make such a declaration until after the season, just to make sure. Glavine, three weeks older than Maddux, also is waiting to see how his body responds. Smoltz, the youngster of the group who turns 41 next week, says he likely will continue.
"At least that's what I think," Smoltz says, "but I don't know what I'm going to do. Physically, I've hit the wall a few times. If I hit it again, it will probably be it."
Father Time has begun catching up to the trio. Maddux, who has 349 career victories, is winless in his last four starts. Glavine, who won his 300th game last season, is winless this season and went on the disabled list for the first time in his career, with a hamstring injury.
Smoltz, who recorded his 3,000th strikeout this season, is on the DL for the 10th time in his career, and will return as a reliever instead of a starter.
"What's that old saying?" Glavine says, "I can be as good once as I ever was, but not as often as I once was.
"It's just harder at our ages to go out there, night after night, and go deep into games. But when someone like Greg is on, you still take your chances with him as much as anyone."
Their consistency, particularly until Smoltz had Tommy John elbow surgery after the 1999 season, was uncanny. The Cy Young award stayed in Atlanta every year but two. During that era, they finished among the top 10 in victories, ERA, innings pitched and games started.
"Those were the guys every young pitcher idolized," says Padres Cy Young winner Jake Peavy, who grew up a Braves fan in Alabama. "I mean, I even named my dog, 'Maddux.' "
Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of their reign was their durability. Glavine never spent a day on the disabled list until this season. And Maddux, with a tweaked back, has missed only one start in his career. Only Smoltz has had surgery.
"The greatest thing I learned from Tom," Maddux says, "is that when it was your turn to pitch, you pitched. It didn't matter how you felt. He'd rather go out there with half of a body than not pitch. I've seen him pitch on one leg, with a bad ankle, with a cracked rib.
"I had plenty of times when something hurt, or something didn't feel good, but not pitching was not an option. I got that from (Glavine). You don't have to be 100% to go out there and win."
Maddux taught Glavine and Smoltz the art of hitting awareness. Instead of focusing simply on the execution of their own pitches, they learned hitters often will reveal their intentions by their own reaction.
"Greg was really the first guy I was ever around that really paid attention to what a hitter was trying to do from one pitch to the next," Glavine says. "I was always so locked up in what I was trying to do, I wasn't paying attention to what a hitter was trying to do. I learned from the way he either swung at a ball or how he took a pitch, gave you an indication of what he was trying to do."
They have yet to watch the videotape of their 1995 World Series championship, when Glavine pitched a one-hitter through eight innings in Game 6 vs. Cleveland for a 1-0 victory, but it was a night they'll forever treasure.
Says Mazzone: "I still remember Tommy coming into the dugout and screaming, 'Will somebody score a run, because they sure aren't.' "
David Justice took care of it with a homer in the sixth, Mark Wohlers closed out the ninth and the Braves had their first championship in 38 years.
"When I'm home, every time I go to bed," Maddux says, "I walk by that ring and think of what we accomplished. That's why we played the game. It wasn't about individual awards or anything else. It was about winning.
"That's why we're still playing today."
It's also why it would be special, they say, if they were inducted together into the Hall of Fame. Maddux and Glavine, with their 300 victories, are considered first-ballot locks. Smoltz, with 210 victories, 154 saves and 3,011 strikeouts, likely will join them.
"On one hand, there's something to be said about having your own day," Glavine says. "But at the same time, the three of us will forever be linked together. So that would be neat, for not only us and the time we spent together, but for the fans in Atlanta who will remember just how special it was.
"It may never happen again."
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Career statistics of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz:
ATLANTA — It's like the Supremes singing one last time in Motown, or Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman shadow-boxing in the ring again at Madison Square Garden.
For the first time in six years, and perhaps the final time, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz were reunited Tuesday in Atlanta — the home of their pitching excellence.
"You're talking about the greatest rotation of all-time," says Leo Mazzone, the Braves' pitching coach during their 10-year era together. "You will never see anything like that again."
The three pitchers combined to win six Cy Young awards, 454 games and save 65 games from 1993-2002. They led the Braves to a division title every year, winning one World Series championship and three National League pennants.
"We just knew we were going to win every year," Maddux says. "We knew it in spring training. It was just a question of what day in September we were going to clinch."
The trio broke up when Glavine left the organization after 18 years, signing with the New York Mets before the 2003 season, only to return this year. Smoltz, who was traded from the Detroit Tigers for Doyle Alexander as a minor-league in 1987, never left. And Maddux, who spent 11 years with the Braves after signing as a free agent in 1992, is with the San Diego Padres.
"It would have been great for all of us to stay together, age together and go out of the game together," Glavine says, "but it didn't happen. As long as Ted (Turner) owned the team, I think there was a reasonable amount of belief that we could all stay together. Once Ted sold the team, and it became a corporate thing, it became less likely.
"It's just neat to think that somewhere down the road we're going to be reunited again.
"And in a very special place."
Maddux, 42, has yet to declare whether this is his final season, and likely won't make such a declaration until after the season, just to make sure. Glavine, three weeks older than Maddux, also is waiting to see how his body responds. Smoltz, the youngster of the group who turns 41 next week, says he likely will continue.
"At least that's what I think," Smoltz says, "but I don't know what I'm going to do. Physically, I've hit the wall a few times. If I hit it again, it will probably be it."
Father Time has begun catching up to the trio. Maddux, who has 349 career victories, is winless in his last four starts. Glavine, who won his 300th game last season, is winless this season and went on the disabled list for the first time in his career, with a hamstring injury.
Smoltz, who recorded his 3,000th strikeout this season, is on the DL for the 10th time in his career, and will return as a reliever instead of a starter.
"What's that old saying?" Glavine says, "I can be as good once as I ever was, but not as often as I once was.
"It's just harder at our ages to go out there, night after night, and go deep into games. But when someone like Greg is on, you still take your chances with him as much as anyone."
Their consistency, particularly until Smoltz had Tommy John elbow surgery after the 1999 season, was uncanny. The Cy Young award stayed in Atlanta every year but two. During that era, they finished among the top 10 in victories, ERA, innings pitched and games started.
"Those were the guys every young pitcher idolized," says Padres Cy Young winner Jake Peavy, who grew up a Braves fan in Alabama. "I mean, I even named my dog, 'Maddux.' "
Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of their reign was their durability. Glavine never spent a day on the disabled list until this season. And Maddux, with a tweaked back, has missed only one start in his career. Only Smoltz has had surgery.
"The greatest thing I learned from Tom," Maddux says, "is that when it was your turn to pitch, you pitched. It didn't matter how you felt. He'd rather go out there with half of a body than not pitch. I've seen him pitch on one leg, with a bad ankle, with a cracked rib.
"I had plenty of times when something hurt, or something didn't feel good, but not pitching was not an option. I got that from (Glavine). You don't have to be 100% to go out there and win."
Maddux taught Glavine and Smoltz the art of hitting awareness. Instead of focusing simply on the execution of their own pitches, they learned hitters often will reveal their intentions by their own reaction.
"Greg was really the first guy I was ever around that really paid attention to what a hitter was trying to do from one pitch to the next," Glavine says. "I was always so locked up in what I was trying to do, I wasn't paying attention to what a hitter was trying to do. I learned from the way he either swung at a ball or how he took a pitch, gave you an indication of what he was trying to do."
They have yet to watch the videotape of their 1995 World Series championship, when Glavine pitched a one-hitter through eight innings in Game 6 vs. Cleveland for a 1-0 victory, but it was a night they'll forever treasure.
Says Mazzone: "I still remember Tommy coming into the dugout and screaming, 'Will somebody score a run, because they sure aren't.' "
David Justice took care of it with a homer in the sixth, Mark Wohlers closed out the ninth and the Braves had their first championship in 38 years.
"When I'm home, every time I go to bed," Maddux says, "I walk by that ring and think of what we accomplished. That's why we played the game. It wasn't about individual awards or anything else. It was about winning.
"That's why we're still playing today."
It's also why it would be special, they say, if they were inducted together into the Hall of Fame. Maddux and Glavine, with their 300 victories, are considered first-ballot locks. Smoltz, with 210 victories, 154 saves and 3,011 strikeouts, likely will join them.
"On one hand, there's something to be said about having your own day," Glavine says. "But at the same time, the three of us will forever be linked together. So that would be neat, for not only us and the time we spent together, but for the fans in Atlanta who will remember just how special it was.
"It may never happen again."
-------
Career statistics of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz:
Code:
Pitcher W-L ERA Ks Walks Cy Young AwardsGreg Maddux 349-217 3.12 3,298 977 4Tom Glavine 303-200 3.51 2,581 1,475 2John Smoltz 210-147 3.25 3,011 992 1 (154 saves)Total 862-564 3.29 8,890 3,444 7
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