So can we all agree yet? (1 Viewer)

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Not only is Calvin the #1 dynasty WR at the tender young age of 25, but I would put calvin as a top 5 overall pick in Dynasty. In fact, personally, I don't think there is any other player I would have in dynasty at the current time with the POSSIBLE exception of ADP. But ADP has some years on him now, 5 workhorse years, so I'm not sure how much longer he can go at his current level.F$#K it, I wouldn't have any problem with taking Calvin #1 overall in dynasty, lol...

I salivate at the thought of the 's that he can put up if the lions are good and healthy (esp at qb

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

to be fair the difference between the top 5 is almost negligible

mega/roddy/AJ/Nicks/Fitz

They are all ####### studs.

Though Mega does have the highest ceiling IMO and is most likely to put up 50

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Let's seriously look at some number comparisons for Calvin vs. Roddy. Understand that what I'm looking at here is for PPR scoring and not standard. That seems to be what the Roddy White crowd is defending him for.There seems to be a great deal being made about the fact that Roddy's ridiculous target numbers greatly inflate his stats, value and overall ability. I don't happen to agree with this premise nor do I think it matters. I don't think it matters because there is nothing or at best very little to suggest that White's situation will change in the near future. I've also watched a great deal of White and based on what I see on the field out of him, he is certainly worthy of being placed in the elite category of WRs. None the less, fantasy at the end of the day is measured in points. How many is a guy going to score.Reading through this topic really got me thinking of how influential White's targets were to his fantasy point totals. Particularly in relation to C. Johnson, as that is the main debate going on here. So I went back and broke down some numbers. Here's what I find:Overall targets/Per year Avg:White, 759/126.5 White's last 4 years, 627/156Johnson, 520/130Interesting that Johnson has averaged more targets per season considering the fact that he's also missed 4 games in 4 years and White has missed 0 games in 6 years. Calvin certainly is helped in this area by the fact that he was a far greater component to his offense from the start as a rookie than White. Looking at White over the last 4 years and taking away his 1st 2 seasons makes a drastic impact on White's numbers. He was clearly not a focus until year 3 which is more in line with most young WRs in the NFL.Targets per game:White, 7.91 White's last 4 season, 9.80Johnson, 8.67Johnson again benefits greatly from the fact that he was a major part of the Det. offense from day 1 of his career. Over their respective careers Johnson is easily outpacing White on per game targets. However, once White got his NFL "legs" he's turned in a ridiculous amount of targets and as a matter of fact has increased his per game targets in each of the past 4 seasons by 0.75 or more each time. Pretty remarkable. We may in fact have seen the apex of White's targets and it's unlikely he will continue to grow them at the pace he's been doing so for the past 4 years. Receptions/Receptions per Target:White, 430/0.57 White's last 4 years, 371/0.59Johnson, 270/0.52White holds a pretty distinct advantage here. Despite his 1st years really holding him back, both were bellow 0.5, he still scores more efficient at converting his targets than Johnson. This would lead credence to the PPR crowd that is backing White. It's not simply that White gets a lot of targets, he converts his targets at a better rate than Johnson. He is clearly the go-to option in the Falcon offense and he appears to have developed quite a chemistry with Ryan.Yds/Yds per Target:White, 6078/8.01 White's last 4 years, 5126/8.18Johnson, 4191/8.06This seems like a virtual push to me. Given the reception numbers above it would appear that Johnson is more apt to the big play than White and the yds reflect that. I'm sure just about everyone already knew that if they watch games though. TDs/TDs per Target:White, 37/0.05 White's last 4 years, 34/0.05Johnson, 33/0.06Johnson holds a pretty distinct advantage here. Although the 0.01 difference wouldn't seem to be much you must also consider that White's number doesn't improve at all even if you take away his 1st 2 seasons. You must also consider the fact that Tds score you 6 points in fantasy.Fantasy points/Fantasy points per Target:White, 1259.8/1.66 White's last 4 years, 1087.6/1.73Johnson, 887.1/1.71This is probably what is most important, fantasy points. Again, I'm using a PPR format as that is what the White crowd was defending. Obviously the numbers will be much different and favor Johnson a great deal in standard. I don't think that is what was mainly being discussed though. Over the course of their careers Johnson holds a slight edge. For me however, how small that edge was came as a surprise. White's 1st 2 seasons really were a great deal worse than his last 4. When you consider the past 4 seasons White holds the advantage. Again the margin is small but I think it shows that this debate is far closer in PPR than many want to admit. In the end, none of this matters a great deal as it was all in the past. I'd honestly say that who I would prefer would probably depend on the type of team I felt I had or more than that, how much I like taking risks. If I really wanted to try and win now than I would go with White. I think he is simply a safer pick. His offense is more established, he has elite ability (maybe not as good as Johnson's but still elite), an elite QB to get him the ball, a better track record over the past 4 years and a more stable organization at the moment. If I was feeling like taking more of a risk and really swinging for the fences than I'd go with Johnson. There are simply too many questions still lingering about the Det offense IMO. If Stafford ever stays healthy and on the field I think the sky's the limit for Johnson. That hasn't happened yet though. Is Det really ready to take a step forward? Is the oline capable enough yet? Will the running game be strong enough to sustain more drives? Johnson has a ton of ability but unfortunately when it comes to WRs they are reliant on several other players to maximize that ability.

So let me get this straight...your comparing Roddy's year 3-6 against calvin's 1-4 ...so basically your counting Roddy's 3rd year against calvins rookie year...you guys are joking right? like this blows my mind ...if any of you guys honestly believe this...show me one start up dynasty draft where roddy goes in front of calvin.

 

[humpback]

Right?

Has he had one Number 1 top fantasy season yet? How can he be the consensus #1 player if he hasn't done that?

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Doesn't make any sense to me, but to each their own. Do you use the same logic for all rankings or just the #1 spot?

 

[jurb26]

So let me get this straight...your comparing Roddy's year 3-6 against calvin's 1-4 ...so basically your counting Roddy's 3rd year against calvins rookie year...you guys are joking right? like this blows my mind ...if any of you guys honestly believe this...show me one start up dynasty draft where roddy goes in front of calvin.

No, I compared both their entire career splits and the last 4 years. Do you want me to take away each players 1st 2 years? I'm guessing not. That would greatly hurt Johnson, dropping his points per target to only 1.66. Should we take away only the rookie year for each player? I'm sure this is what you would want me to do as at greatly skews things in Johnson's favor. That would place Johnson at 1.74 and White at 1.66. This doesn't seem to make any sense for White considering he had less targets in his 1st 2 years combined than any other single season since. I think the most fair way to asses things is to take away Calvin's rookie year and take away Roddy's 1st 2 years. That eliminates the rookie learning curve for year one. It gives a clearer picture of what each players role is on their team now. It is pretty obvious that White became a significant focus of the offense in year 3, not year 2. On top of that, there is nothing to suggest a change in White's circumstances from this year or the past 4 years to going back to his situation in years 1 and 2. Using these time frames the fantasy points per target are remarkably close. 1.74 for Johnson and 1.73 for White. You think it's crazy to draft White ahead of Johnson then fine. I could care less. I was just curious and wanted to look at the numbers. As I said before, I think Johnson has the potential to be off the charts productive. Potential is a scary word in fantasy though. It would take some stars to align for Johnson's potential to be reach IMO. The 1st being a healthy Stafford for a full year. Some better protection from the oline and a more stable running game would also need to come into place. With White I think we know what we are going to get or at least can say with a much higher level of confidence where he will fall. Sure injuries could effect him but injuries could effect anyone. White has proven extremely consistent over the past 4 years and unlike your original premise, his production is not just a factor of a ton of targets. Just look at the points generated by each player on a per target basis. Sure the targets help, but they would help any WR. BTW, since when is it a bad thing for your fantasy WR to get a bunch of targets anyway? Again, I think this is a much closer debate than you/many are letting on. I would expect far more people to take Johnson 1st overall. He is younger and youth is an attribute many people covet in dynasty. Not only that but he is perceived to have the most potential of any WR in the NFL. There's that word again, potential. I would not disagree with that. Johnson has immense potential. I think many people are convinced that it's only a matter of time that Johnson puts up Randy Moss type numbers. Again, I have no problem with that but it all adds to his perceived value. I also happen to think dynasty drafters overvalue potential so again, it makes sense most would go for him. Even if you are a guy who prefers White you would probably use that to your advantage and trade down or pick Johnson and try to move him. It's pretty obvious you could get more for him from the majority of the people than you could for White.

 

[Scooby1974]

So let me get this straight...your comparing Roddy's year 3-6 against calvin's 1-4 ...so basically your counting Roddy's 3rd year against calvins rookie year...you guys are joking right? like this blows my mind ...if any of you guys honestly believe this...show me one start up dynasty draft where roddy goes in front of calvin.

No, I compared both their entire career splits and the last 4 years. Do you want me to take away each players 1st 2 years? I'm guessing not. That would greatly hurt Johnson, dropping his points per target to only 1.66. Should we take away only the rookie year for each player? I'm sure this is what you would want me to do as at greatly skews things in Johnson's favor. That would place Johnson at 1.74 and White at 1.66. This doesn't seem to make any sense for White considering he had less targets in his 1st 2 years combined than any other single season since. I think the most fair way to asses things is to take away Calvin's rookie year and take away Roddy's 1st 2 years. That eliminates the rookie learning curve for year one. It gives a clearer picture of what each players role is on their team now. It is pretty obvious that White became a significant focus of the offense in year 3, not year 2. On top of that, there is nothing to suggest a change in White's circumstances from this year or the past 4 years to going back to his situation in years 1 and 2. Using these time frames the fantasy points per target are remarkably close. 1.74 for Johnson and 1.73 for White. You think it's crazy to draft White ahead of Johnson then fine. I could care less. I was just curious and wanted to look at the numbers. As I said before, I think Johnson has the potential to be off the charts productive. Potential is a scary word in fantasy though. It would take some stars to align for Johnson's potential to be reach IMO. The 1st being a healthy Stafford for a full year. Some better protection from the oline and a more stable running game would also need to come into place. With White I think we know what we are going to get or at least can say with a much higher level of confidence where he will fall. Sure injuries could effect him but injuries could effect anyone. White has proven extremely consistent over the past 4 years and unlike your original premise, his production is not just a factor of a ton of targets. Just look at the points generated by each player on a per target basis. Sure the targets help, but they would help any WR. BTW, since when is it a bad thing for your fantasy WR to get a bunch of targets anyway? Again, I think this is a much closer debate than you/many are letting on. I would expect far more people to take Johnson 1st overall. He is younger and youth is an attribute many people covet in dynasty. Not only that but he is perceived to have the most potential of any WR in the NFL. There's that word again, potential. I would not disagree with that. Johnson has immense potential. I think many people are convinced that it's only a matter of time that Johnson puts up Randy Moss type numbers. Again, I have no problem with that but it all adds to his perceived value. I also happen to think dynasty drafters overvalue potential so again, it makes sense most would go for him. Even if you are a guy who prefers White you would probably use that to your advantage and trade down or pick Johnson and try to move him. It's pretty obvious you could get more for him from the majority of the people than you could for White.

The deciding factor for me is that Calvin produced numbers equal to Roddy on a far less stable team, and with a merry-go-ground QB situation, and a younger age, and with injury taking games away. Roddy has had the PERFECT situation when compared with Calvin's thus far. If you could swap players and put Calvin in ATL with Matt Ryan and Turner (grinder that doesn't steal catches(, and an actual NFL Defense, I believe Calvin runs away with this debate.That being said, Calvin is in Detroit with a young, potentially very good and accurate QB, and now an actual threat of a running game with Best. The young Defense in Detroit is getting better, and maybe by Saturday they'll have an offensive line pieced together that can give Stafford the same kind of time and protection Matt Ryan gets in ATL.

 

[jurb26]

That being said, Calvin is in Detroit with a young, potentially very good and accurate QB, and now an actual threat of a running game with Best. The young Defense in Detroit is getting better, and maybe by Saturday they'll have an offensive line pieced together that can give Stafford the same kind of time and protection Matt Ryan gets in ATL.

I'm very hopeful that this is the case.

 

[Buckna]

That being said, Calvin is in Detroit with a young, potentially very good and accurate QB, and now an actual threat of a running game with Best. The young Defense in Detroit is getting better, and maybe by Saturday they'll have an offensive line pieced together that can give Stafford the same kind of time and protection Matt Ryan gets in ATL.

I'm very hopeful that this is the case.

FYI - ATL's O'line allowed 23 sacks & 64 QB hits in the 2010 regular season. Detroit's O'line allowed 27 sacks & 64 QB hits. They were 3rd & 6th respectively in fewest sacks given up in the league.

 

[Scooby1974]

That being said, Calvin is in Detroit with a young, potentially very good and accurate QB, and now an actual threat of a running game with Best. The young Defense in Detroit is getting better, and maybe by Saturday they'll have an offensive line pieced together that can give Stafford the same kind of time and protection Matt Ryan gets in ATL.

I'm very hopeful that this is the case.

FYI - ATL's O'line allowed 23 sacks & 64 QB hits in the 2010 regular season. Detroit's O'line allowed 27 sacks & 64 QB hits. They were 3rd & 6th respectively in fewest sacks given up in the league.

Interesting on the sacks and QB hits. I'll still stand by the significantly better running game and Defense in ATL that affords Ryan a chance to QB with a lead rather than usually playing from behind. There is always more pressure on when playing from behind, you have to take more chances, force more balls, risk more INT's. Add to that fact, Roddy has one of the best TE's EVER taking pressure off him so he isn't consistently double and triple teamed. Calvin gets double and triple teamed + everyone knows they have to throw it...and he STILL put up those numbers with a QB merry go round?....that is just silly.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

How about now?

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

Nicks

easy choice for me.

Love Nicks. Very close for me between Nicks and CJ. I would probably take CJ but try and trade him for Nicks + something else, as CJ's perceived value is a little higher.

LOL

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

I'll take Roddy White and you guys can fight over everyone else.

you people make me laugh

Not sure what is funny about that. He's spot on.

Because Roddy isn't an elite talent...The only reason he is putting up good numbers this year is because of the amount of targets. I dont care who you are, always go elite talent over elite situation in dynasty.Because situation can go down the tubes with one injury. No person can look me in the face and tell me roddy would still be a top 5 guy if matt ryan went down for the year. Plus even in the worst situation possible Calvin is still putting up the same type of numbers.

Like in 2007 when White had Joey Harrington, Chris Redman, and Byron Leftwich throwing to him? When White still put up 83-1202-6?

Is that top 5 numbers? Im not saying Roddy isn't good or anything...im just saying hes not number 1 over Calvin. Calvin is just such a dominant red zone target that if he remains healthy he will get over 10+ tds every year. Roddy is not that type of guy.Roddy usually catches about half his targets. I think as Ryan matures and becomes a better QB he will spread the ball around more and Roddys Targets (and numbers) will go down.

Wow, spot on analysis Wiscstlatlmia ...ok I have to gloat a little bit

 

[thriftyrocker]

I think as Ryan matures and becomes a better QB he will spread the ball around more and Roddys Targets (and numbers) will go down.

Wow, spot on analysis Wiscstlatlmia ...ok I have to gloat a little bit

Congratulations, but Roddy had 13 and 17 targets in the two non-Nnamdi games this year. Roddy averaged 11 targets per game last year and the same this year even if you add the Philly game. It's too soon to say anything about a hit to White's upside, because Ryan is the same guy he was last year so far (or maybe a little worse). For the time being we still have to say Roddy is a monster. Even if he is only the #4 or 5 dynasty WR.

 

[duaneok66]

How about now?

ask Cris Carter . . .

 

[thatguy]

Nicks

easy choice for me.

Love Nicks. Very close for me between Nicks and CJ. I would probably take CJ but try and trade him for Nicks + something else, as CJ's perceived value is a little higher.

LOL

Calvin through 3 games last season: 14-151-1Nicks through 3 games this season: 13-162-1Moral: Bad starts happen, even for the very best, 3 games tells us ****.Calvin through 5 games last season: 24-291-4Nicks through 5 games last season: 33-409-6Moral: Hot starts happen, too. Were we supposed to assume that after 5 games last season, Nicks was the clearcut number one dynasty WR? Were we supposed to laugh at anyone who thought otherwise?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

For all his physical talent I have yet to se him truly take over a game or dominate his competition consistently.

Criticism invalidated.

Matt Stafford will never be a perennial top QB.

Criticism invalidated.Good bump.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I'll take Roddy White and you guys can fight over everyone else.

you people make me laugh

Not sure what is funny about that. He's spot on.

More proof that you don't know how to rate WR's...

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Look i understand...Roddy white is underrated and hes the next Reggie Wayne, I get it.... But someone please tell me how you could pick him over Calvin? give me and actual reason why hes more worthy

I've been a Roddy White owner for 3 years in a keeper league. That's how I could pick him over Calvin.It amazes me that Roddy White is STILL underrated after what he is doing RIGHT NOW.

Roddy is going to finish this year in the TOP TEN in PPR for the 4TH SEASON IN A ROW. Never missed a game in his career! Neither of which Calvin can say.

This year is proving a lot of that may have been being the only legitimate WR on his team. He has been paired with Michael Jenkins an Brian Finneran for the last 4 years. Now with Julio Jones as a 1B he has been disappearing from games. Just guessing off the top of my head, but I bet his targets were probably higher on avg than most guys on this list overthe last 4 years by a pretty substantial margin. Look I love the falcons and White, but he's not in the same league as the top 2 guys on this list.

<div><br></div><div>Once again it's not knocking roddy too bad to say he's not Megatron/andre johnson.  But he's not.</div>

 

[mr roboto]

Look i understand...Roddy white is underrated and hes the next Reggie Wayne, I get it.... But someone please tell me how you could pick him over Calvin? give me and actual reason why hes more worthy

I've been a Roddy White owner for 3 years in a keeper league. That's how I could pick him over Calvin.It amazes me that Roddy White is STILL underrated after what he is doing RIGHT NOW.

Roddy is going to finish this year in the TOP TEN in PPR for the 4TH SEASON IN A ROW. Never missed a game in his career! Neither of which Calvin can say.

This year is proving a lot of that may have been being the only legitimate WR on his team. He has been paired with Michael Jenkins an Brian Finneran for the last 4 years. Now with Julio Jones as a 1B he has been disappearing from games. Just guessing off the top of my head, but I bet his targets were probably higher on avg than most guys on this list overthe last 4 years by a pretty substantial margin. Look I love the falcons and White, but he's not in the same league as the top 5 guys on these lists.

Exact same story in Detroit...

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Look i understand...Roddy white is underrated and hes the next Reggie Wayne, I get it.... But someone please tell me how you could pick him over Calvin? give me and actual reason why hes more worthy

I've been a Roddy White owner for 3 years in a keeper league. That's how I could pick him over Calvin.It amazes me that Roddy White is STILL underrated after what he is doing RIGHT NOW.

Roddy is going to finish this year in the TOP TEN in PPR for the 4TH SEASON IN A ROW. Never missed a game in his career! Neither of which Calvin can say.

This year is proving a lot of that may have been being the only legitimate WR on his team. He has been paired with Michael Jenkins an Brian Finneran for the last 4 years. Now with Julio Jones as a 1B he has been disappearing from games. Just guessing off the top of my head, but I bet his targets were probably higher on avg than most guys on this list overthe last 4 years by a pretty substantial margin. Look I love the falcons and White, but he's not in the same league as the top 5 guys on these lists.

Exact same story in Detroit...

Stafford's spreading the ball around pretty well, and has some good, talented options in Pettigrew, Burleson, Young, and Best. Those are much better options than ATL in years past with Jenkins and Gonzalez and....uh....not Turner...no 3rd receiver...He just LOVES Calvin in the redzone. And its not because he couldn't throw elsewhere. Half the time, even with as well as Stafford's been playing, he doesn't even LOOK at anyone else in the redzone. He takes the snap and looks up at Calvin, and doesn't look anywhere else. Its "do-or-die" on those plays, and they're "doing" just fine. Because Calvin is a dominant WR, and Stafford is an elite QB.

 

[mr roboto]

Look i understand...Roddy white is underrated and hes the next Reggie Wayne, I get it.... But someone please tell me how you could pick him over Calvin? give me and actual reason why hes more worthy

I've been a Roddy White owner for 3 years in a keeper league. That's how I could pick him over Calvin.It amazes me that Roddy White is STILL underrated after what he is doing RIGHT NOW.

Roddy is going to finish this year in the TOP TEN in PPR for the 4TH SEASON IN A ROW. Never missed a game in his career! Neither of which Calvin can say.

This year is proving a lot of that may have been being the only legitimate WR on his team. He has been paired with Michael Jenkins an Brian Finneran for the last 4 years. Now with Julio Jones as a 1B he has been disappearing from games. Just guessing off the top of my head, but I bet his targets were probably higher on avg than most guys on this list overthe last 4 years by a pretty substantial margin. Look I love the falcons and White, but he's not in the same league as the top 5 guys on these lists.

Exact same story in Detroit...

Stafford's spreading the ball around pretty well, and has some good, talented options in Pettigrew, Burleson, Young, and Best. Those are much better options than ATL in years past with Jenkins and Gonzalez and....uh....not Turner...no 3rd receiver...He just LOVES Calvin in the redzone. And its not because he couldn't throw elsewhere. Half the time, even with as well as Stafford's been playing, he doesn't even LOOK at anyone else in the redzone. He takes the snap and looks up at Calvin, and doesn't look anywhere else. Its "do-or-die" on those plays, and they're "doing" just fine. Because Calvin is a dominant WR, and Stafford is an elite QB.

Well now, yea. Pett, 3rd year, Young, rookie. Burleson, solid but not spectacular. Best, 2nd year.Calvin has been, most of his career, the beginning and end of the receiving options.

 

[jurb26]

He just LOVES Calvin in the redzone. And its not because he couldn't throw elsewhere. Half the time, even with as well as Stafford's been playing, he doesn't even LOOK at anyone else in the redzone. He takes the snap and looks up at Calvin, and doesn't look anywhere else. Its "do-or-die" on those plays, and they're "doing" just fine. Because Calvin is a dominant WR, and Stafford is an elite QB.

Stafford checks to see if Calvin is one on one coverage before every snap in the redzone. If he is, he checks it off to him no matter what. If he is getting doubled or it looks like he is, he will go elsewhere. One on one though, he's giving his best weapon and best redzone WR in the NFL a chance. Smart move by Stafford.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Look i understand...Roddy white is underrated and hes the next Reggie Wayne, I get it.... But someone please tell me how you could pick him over Calvin? give me and actual reason why hes more worthy

I've been a Roddy White owner for 3 years in a keeper league. That's how I could pick him over Calvin.It amazes me that Roddy White is STILL underrated after what he is doing RIGHT NOW.

Roddy is going to finish this year in the TOP TEN in PPR for the 4TH SEASON IN A ROW. Never missed a game in his career! Neither of which Calvin can say.

This year is proving a lot of that may have been being the only legitimate WR on his team. He has been paired with Michael Jenkins an Brian Finneran for the last 4 years. Now with Julio Jones as a 1B he has been disappearing from games. Just guessing off the top of my head, but I bet his targets were probably higher on avg than most guys on this list overthe last 4 years by a pretty substantial margin. Look I love the falcons and White, but he's not in the same league as the top 5 guys on these lists.

Exact same story in Detroit...

Burleson/Titus young >>>>>>> michael Jenkins/Brian Finneran pettigrew/gonzalez is a push

 

[Jewell]

I see a lot of Calvin, Nicks, and Roddy mentions, and I agree that Calvin should be #1, but how about Mike Wallace?

He put fantastic numbers last year, and he's on an even better pace this year. Most pundits agree that Wallace has vastly improved his route running, and he's still young and learning. I'd take him over Roddy who now has to share with Julio Jones, and I'd take him over Miles Austin or Dez who have to share with each other.