Solar Power Industry is Booming (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

The 30 percent tax credit expires next year. Solar will be completely impractical after that.

Unsubsidized cost of solar is getting very close to coal and gas in southwestern states.

The economic advantages of wind and solar over fossil fuels go beyond price.5 Still, it's remarkable that in every major region of the world, the lifetime cost of new coal and gas projects6 are rising considerably in the second half of 2015, according to BNEF. And in every major region the cost of renewables continues to fall.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-06/solar-wind-reach-a-big-renewables-turning-point-bnef

That is nice for the people of Arozona, Nevada, and New Mexico, but for the vast majority it will become impractical. And as the example linked to above, the reality of implimenting green power is not as green as in theory. If I did it, it would have to be before the tax credit ran out and not by one of those for free contractors.

Just those top 5 states is almost 25% of the country's population. Then you have the other Southern states and Florida isn't even on the chart. In some places solar may never make economic sense.

 

[NCCommish]

What alot of the Republicans fail to recognize is that all this government investment leads to innovation. You have to get through the tough times to get to the good times. We can't sit back and let Europe or China or Japan figure out the new technologies. That's a recipie for economic disaster and most of those places are working very hard on the energy of the future.

I don't have any idea why I remembered this thread and post, but it popped into my mind reading about the problems in the US's "Ivanpah" project....not going so well.

I wouldn't rely on Allen West. Electricity production is up 170% and natural gas usage is down at Ivanpah. It was and is an amazingly complex installation that took some time to work out the kinks. Remember they said from day one it would take about 4 years to hit their stride. If production continues to increase as it is this project will be a success.

 

[NCCommish]

The 30 percent tax credit expires next year. Solar will be completely impractical after that.

Unsubsidized cost of solar is getting very close to coal and gas in southwestern states.

The economic advantages of wind and solar over fossil fuels go beyond price.5 Still, it's remarkable that in every major region of the world, the lifetime cost of new coal and gas projects6 are rising considerably in the second half of 2015, according to BNEF. And in every major region the cost of renewables continues to fall.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-06/solar-wind-reach-a-big-renewables-turning-point-bnef

That is nice for the people of Arozona, Nevada, and New Mexico, but for the vast majority it will become impractical. And as the example linked to above, the reality of implimenting green power is not as green as in theory. If I did it, it would have to be before the tax credit ran out and not by one of those for free contractors.

Almost every state in the union gets enough sun to.install and run on solar power. Heck people in the northeast set up completely off the grid home installs years ago. Panels and fuel cells are much more efficient now.

 

[Mr. Ected]

Just pulled the trigger on solar for the house - being installed in November.

Average electric bill was about $225 per month.

With the panels my bill will be $140 for the next 15 years. After that no bill. No money down. No brainier - should have done it years ago. Can't think of any downside here.

Also seeing a lot of commercial properties in Brooklyn, Long Island City, Bronx just beginning to start to use a previously unused piece of real estate - roofs. Gardens going up there, solar panels, etc.

Agree with OP - solar is going to boom quite soon.

How much did it cost you?

No money down - cost me nothing.

Local company here on Long Island, NY. Not sure if they are national?

Everything was installed about 2 weeks ago. My electric meter outside the house which has the spinning dial showing how much electric is being used has completely stopped spinning since the solar panel install. Pretty cool

Let me rephrase to make sure I understand correctly:

You bought/financed the panels at $140 a month over 15 years ($25K) and then they are paid off. At this time, they generate more electricty than you use. So, all you are paying now is the amount you bought/financed the panels for.

I assume you are on the grid still. Do you get any credit for the electricty added to the grid?

I looked into this once, and if I understood it correctly, you don't get credit for extra electricity because you don't own them yet. Once you own them you get the credit. This was part of the rationale for the company to install the panels for you.

 

[The Commish]

What alot of the Republicans fail to recognize is that all this government investment leads to innovation. You have to get through the tough times to get to the good times. We can't sit back and let Europe or China or Japan figure out the new technologies. That's a recipie for economic disaster and most of those places are working very hard on the energy of the future.

I don't have any idea why I remembered this thread and post, but it popped into my mind reading about the problems in the US's "Ivanpah" project....not going so well.

I wouldn't rely on Allen West. Electricity production is up 170% and natural gas usage is down at Ivanpah. It was and is an amazingly complex installation that took some time to work out the kinks. Remember they said from day one it would take about 4 years to hit their stride. If production continues to increase as it is this project will be a success.

Yeah, I wasn't passing judgment on the project. I just remembered this comment (for some reason) while reading, but I will say there are some (it appears) that were bullish on this project that could now be classified as bearish. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[NCCommish]

What alot of the Republicans fail to recognize is that all this government investment leads to innovation. You have to get through the tough times to get to the good times. We can't sit back and let Europe or China or Japan figure out the new technologies. That's a recipie for economic disaster and most of those places are working very hard on the energy of the future.

I don't have any idea why I remembered this thread and post, but it popped into my mind reading about the problems in the US's "Ivanpah" project....not going so well.

I wouldn't rely on Allen West. Electricity production is up 170% and natural gas usage is down at Ivanpah. It was and is an amazingly complex installation that took some time to work out the kinks. Remember they said from day one it would take about 4 years to hit their stride. If production continues to increase as it is this project will be a success.

Yeah, I wasn't passing judgment on the project. I just remembered this comment (for some reason) while reading, but I will say there are some (it appears) that were bullish on this project that could now be classified as bearish. We'll have to wait and see.

I personally wasn't happy the project didn't include storage, that's why it uses natural gas. But if they hit their proposal in the next year or so it has to be counted as a success.

 

[Chadstroma]

Just pulled the trigger on solar for the house - being installed in November.

Average electric bill was about $225 per month.

With the panels my bill will be $140 for the next 15 years. After that no bill. No money down. No brainier - should have done it years ago. Can't think of any downside here.

Also seeing a lot of commercial properties in Brooklyn, Long Island City, Bronx just beginning to start to use a previously unused piece of real estate - roofs. Gardens going up there, solar panels, etc.

Agree with OP - solar is going to boom quite soon.

How much did it cost you?

No money down - cost me nothing.

Local company here on Long Island, NY. Not sure if they are national?

Everything was installed about 2 weeks ago. My electric meter outside the house which has the spinning dial showing how much electric is being used has completely stopped spinning since the solar panel install. Pretty cool

Let me rephrase to make sure I understand correctly:

You bought/financed the panels at $140 a month over 15 years ($25K) and then they are paid off. At this time, they generate more electricty than you use. So, all you are paying now is the amount you bought/financed the panels for.

I assume you are on the grid still. Do you get any credit for the electricty added to the grid?

I looked into this once, and if I understood it correctly, you don't get credit for extra electricity because you don't own them yet. Once you own them you get the credit. This was part of the rationale for the company to install the panels for you.

So, they get the $25K PLUS the credit for electricty for 15 years. That has to be a nice margin. Residential panels and installation are not that expensive from my understanding.

 

[Mr. Ected]

Just pulled the trigger on solar for the house - being installed in November.

Average electric bill was about $225 per month.

With the panels my bill will be $140 for the next 15 years. After that no bill. No money down. No brainier - should have done it years ago. Can't think of any downside here.

Also seeing a lot of commercial properties in Brooklyn, Long Island City, Bronx just beginning to start to use a previously unused piece of real estate - roofs. Gardens going up there, solar panels, etc.

Agree with OP - solar is going to boom quite soon.

How much did it cost you?

No money down - cost me nothing.

Local company here on Long Island, NY. Not sure if they are national?

Everything was installed about 2 weeks ago. My electric meter outside the house which has the spinning dial showing how much electric is being used has completely stopped spinning since the solar panel install. Pretty cool

Let me rephrase to make sure I understand correctly:

You bought/financed the panels at $140 a month over 15 years ($25K) and then they are paid off. At this time, they generate more electricty than you use. So, all you are paying now is the amount you bought/financed the panels for.

I assume you are on the grid still. Do you get any credit for the electricty added to the grid?

I looked into this once, and if I understood it correctly, you don't get credit for extra electricity because you don't own them yet. Once you own them you get the credit. This was part of the rationale for the company to install the panels for you.

So, they get the $25K PLUS the credit for electricty for 15 years. That has to be a nice margin. Residential panels and installation are not that expensive from my understanding.

I don't remember it being 15 years, so the extra credit(s) may have helped make the term shorter. I didn't look too hard, since my house didn't fit too well. (too many trees)

 

[cstu]

Almost every state in the union gets enough sun to.install and run on solar power. Heck people in the northeast set up completely off the grid home installs years ago. Panels and fuel cells are much more efficient now.

It's possible but not economically feasible on an unsubsidized basis.

However, this chart shows that in 7 years the cost of unsubsidized solar will be cheaper than gas per kW for 120 million people.

 

[cstu]

In 2015, six of the largest metropolitan areas are already at solar parity, representing over 30 million Americans. That’s one-third more people living with solar at parity with utility electricity prices than in our original analysis, when we calculated that 2015 would bring parity to just two metro areas, totaling 22 million people.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Just pulled the trigger on solar for the house - being installed in November.

Average electric bill was about $225 per month.

With the panels my bill will be $140 for the next 15 years. After that no bill. No money down. No brainier - should have done it years ago. Can't think of any downside here.

Also seeing a lot of commercial properties in Brooklyn, Long Island City, Bronx just beginning to start to use a previously unused piece of real estate - roofs. Gardens going up there, solar panels, etc.

Agree with OP - solar is going to boom quite soon.

How much did it cost you?

No money down - cost me nothing.

Local company here on Long Island, NY. Not sure if they are national?

Everything was installed about 2 weeks ago. My electric meter outside the house which has the spinning dial showing how much electric is being used has completely stopped spinning since the solar panel install. Pretty cool

Let me rephrase to make sure I understand correctly:

You bought/financed the panels at $140 a month over 15 years ($25K) and then they are paid off. At this time, they generate more electricty than you use. So, all you are paying now is the amount you bought/financed the panels for.

I assume you are on the grid still. Do you get any credit for the electricty added to the grid?

I looked into this once, and if I understood it correctly, you don't get credit for extra electricity because you don't own them yet. Once you own them you get the credit. This was part of the rationale for the company to install the panels for you.

So, they get the $25K PLUS the credit for electricty for 15 years. That has to be a nice margin. Residential panels and installation are not that expensive from my understanding.

The newer digital meters don't run backwards, so you can't get credited for any electricity you generate. Sneaky.

 

[cstu]

Very in-depth article on the future of solar

 

[Chadstroma]

Just pulled the trigger on solar for the house - being installed in November.

Average electric bill was about $225 per month.

With the panels my bill will be $140 for the next 15 years. After that no bill. No money down. No brainier - should have done it years ago. Can't think of any downside here.

Also seeing a lot of commercial properties in Brooklyn, Long Island City, Bronx just beginning to start to use a previously unused piece of real estate - roofs. Gardens going up there, solar panels, etc.

Agree with OP - solar is going to boom quite soon.

How much did it cost you?

No money down - cost me nothing.

Local company here on Long Island, NY. Not sure if they are national?

Everything was installed about 2 weeks ago. My electric meter outside the house which has the spinning dial showing how much electric is being used has completely stopped spinning since the solar panel install. Pretty cool

Let me rephrase to make sure I understand correctly:

You bought/financed the panels at $140 a month over 15 years ($25K) and then they are paid off. At this time, they generate more electricty than you use. So, all you are paying now is the amount you bought/financed the panels for.

I assume you are on the grid still. Do you get any credit for the electricty added to the grid?

I looked into this once, and if I understood it correctly, you don't get credit for extra electricity because you don't own them yet. Once you own them you get the credit. This was part of the rationale for the company to install the panels for you.

So, they get the $25K PLUS the credit for electricty for 15 years. That has to be a nice margin. Residential panels and installation are not that expensive from my understanding.

I don't remember it being 15 years, so the extra credit(s) may have helped make the term shorter. I didn't look too hard, since my house didn't fit too well. (too many trees)

Cut the trees down! In the name of the environment.

 

[jon_mx]

Here is what I understand the deal the companies offer you. They charge you about $30K for the materials and installation (but you pay zero up front). The have about $10K worth of material and maybe another $7K in labor. They collect the 30% credit from the Feds ($9K) plus anything the state offers, which varies wildly. So the company has about $8K costs sunk up front. Say your electric bill averages $200 per month, the benefit to you is you pay this company $180 per month (90% of your current bill) for the next 15-20 years. On their initial investment of $8K, the company collects about $30-40K over the life of the system. Your bill are fixed and you don't have to worry about the costs of energy going up. You never really own the system unless you pay off the residual at the end of the contract, which by that time your system will be inefficient and obsolete technology. The best way would be to buy the panels wholesale and do/oversee the install yourself. You need a nice south facing roof, a fairly sunny climate, and check the local rules for the utility company if they buy your excess. Otherwise, forget it.

 

[Chadstroma]

Here is what I understand the deal the companies offer you. They charge you about $30K for the materials and installation (but you pay zero up front). The have about $10K worth of material and maybe another $7K in labor. They collect the 30% credit from the Feds ($9K) plus anything the state offers, which varies wildly. So the company has about $8K costs sunk up front. Say your electric bill averages $200 per month, the benefit to you is you pay this company $180 per month (90% of your current bill) for the next 15-20 years. On their initial investment of $8K, the company collects about $30-40K over the life of the system. Your bill are fixed and you don't have to worry about the costs of energy going up. You never really own the system unless you pay off the residual at the end of the contract, which by that time your system will be inefficient and obsolete technology. The best way would be to buy the panels wholesale and do/oversee the install yourself. You need a nice south facing roof, a fairly sunny climate, and check the local rules for the utility company if they buy your excess. Otherwise, forget it.

Geez, this makes me want to start a solar panel installation company. Should be easy to sell the "you can pay half what you pay now every month and in 15 years pay nothing- and best yet- it is all free to you to do!" bit. Do enough jobs and then you have pretty close to guaranteed income for the next 15-20 years. Move the income into a different company and then sell the installation company and then retire.

 

[cstu]

Here is what I understand the deal the companies offer you. They charge you about $30K for the materials and installation (but you pay zero up front). The have about $10K worth of material and maybe another $7K in labor. They collect the 30% credit from the Feds ($9K) plus anything the state offers, which varies wildly. So the company has about $8K costs sunk up front. Say your electric bill averages $200 per month, the benefit to you is you pay this company $180 per month (90% of your current bill) for the next 15-20 years. On their initial investment of $8K, the company collects about $30-40K over the life of the system. Your bill are fixed and you don't have to worry about the costs of energy going up. You never really own the system unless you pay off the residual at the end of the contract, which by that time your system will be inefficient and obsolete technology. The best way would be to buy the panels wholesale and do/oversee the install yourself. You need a nice south facing roof, a fairly sunny climate, and check the local rules for the utility company if they buy your excess. Otherwise, forget it.

From that link I posted above:

Kann showed an average $3.50 per watt costs for residential systems, broken down into its composite parts. He said, "There are some pieces of this that are sort of ridiculous. The soft costs in particular are completely crazy for solar in the U.S. We're still at over $2.00 a watt on average for soft costs for residential solar, and particularly, customer-acquisition costs, which on average are [around] 43 cents a watt. (Actually, if you look at SolarCity's earnings, they're at something like 60 cents a watt and flat.) It's not falling. Those are crazy-high customer-acquisition costs. The customer-acquisition cost for competitive retail electricity is the equivalent of 2 or 3 cents a watt. It's nothing compared to this, so the first thing we can do is figure out radical ways to get soft costs down."

Chart of costs for the solar installation companies.

In other words, if you can do it yourself you'll save 2/3rds.

 

[cstu]

Here is what I understand the deal the companies offer you. They charge you about $30K for the materials and installation (but you pay zero up front). The have about $10K worth of material and maybe another $7K in labor. They collect the 30% credit from the Feds ($9K) plus anything the state offers, which varies wildly. So the company has about $8K costs sunk up front. Say your electric bill averages $200 per month, the benefit to you is you pay this company $180 per month (90% of your current bill) for the next 15-20 years. On their initial investment of $8K, the company collects about $30-40K over the life of the system. Your bill are fixed and you don't have to worry about the costs of energy going up. You never really own the system unless you pay off the residual at the end of the contract, which by that time your system will be inefficient and obsolete technology. The best way would be to buy the panels wholesale and do/oversee the install yourself. You need a nice south facing roof, a fairly sunny climate, and check the local rules for the utility company if they buy your excess. Otherwise, forget it.

Geez, this makes me want to start a solar panel installation company. Should be easy to sell the "you can pay half what you pay now every month and in 15 years pay nothing- and best yet- it is all free to you to do!" bit. Do enough jobs and then you have pretty close to guaranteed income for the next 15-20 years. Move the income into a different company and then sell the installation company and then retire.

Gravy train is coming to an end with the expiration of ITC:

"Then, assuming the ITC doesn't get extended, we have a weird period for 2017 to 2019, when we're going to be trying to figure out how to make this market work, potentially in the absence of a 30 percent ITC.

 

[Chadstroma]

Here is what I understand the deal the companies offer you. They charge you about $30K for the materials and installation (but you pay zero up front). The have about $10K worth of material and maybe another $7K in labor. They collect the 30% credit from the Feds ($9K) plus anything the state offers, which varies wildly. So the company has about $8K costs sunk up front. Say your electric bill averages $200 per month, the benefit to you is you pay this company $180 per month (90% of your current bill) for the next 15-20 years. On their initial investment of $8K, the company collects about $30-40K over the life of the system. Your bill are fixed and you don't have to worry about the costs of energy going up. You never really own the system unless you pay off the residual at the end of the contract, which by that time your system will be inefficient and obsolete technology. The best way would be to buy the panels wholesale and do/oversee the install yourself. You need a nice south facing roof, a fairly sunny climate, and check the local rules for the utility company if they buy your excess. Otherwise, forget it.

Geez, this makes me want to start a solar panel installation company. Should be easy to sell the "you can pay half what you pay now every month and in 15 years pay nothing- and best yet- it is all free to you to do!" bit. Do enough jobs and then you have pretty close to guaranteed income for the next 15-20 years. Move the income into a different company and then sell the installation company and then retire.

Gravy train is coming to an end with the expiration of ITC:

"Then, assuming the ITC doesn't get extended, we have a weird period for 2017 to 2019, when we're going to be trying to figure out how to make this market work, potentially in the absence of a 30 percent ITC.

Dammit. Foiled again.