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Some Perspective on the Utter Foolishness of the Economic Aspects of "Make America Great Again" (3 Viewers)

Higgs said:
Not that I've heard.  I think it's more likely that the H-1B allotments will increase.  
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That may very well end up being the case, but what is it that leads you to that conclusion?  Trump's "Hire American" Executive Order states the following:

Sec. 2.  Policy.  It shall be the policy of the executive branch to buy American and hire American.

 
(b)  Hire American.  In order to create higher wages and employment rates for workers in the United States, and to protect their economic interests, it shall be the policy of the executive branch to rigorously enforce and administer the laws governing entry into the United States of workers from abroad, including section 212(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(5)).
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The Z Machine said:
Based on campaign rhetoric, this administration was shaping up to try and challenge the prevailing macroeconomic theories on many levels.  Perhaps due to political constraints, that challenge will be less forceful than it would have been, but make no mistake about Trump's wholesale rejection of standard macroeconomic theory in a global economy.
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We can have 300 million American customers for our goods and services or we can have 7 billion global customers.  It would seem that more customers = more demand = more Jobs....

The irony against nationalism is that it is in America's best interest to engage globally.

 
Henry Ford said:
Independent farm earnings have been horrible for years, with a short uptick a couple years ago.  It's one of the reasons they hire undocumented immigrants - it's all they can afford and keep the lights on. 
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There is no Earthly reason to put in place special supports for independent farming any more than there are for independent gas stations, independent book stores or independent motel operators. Farming in the modern era is a scale business.

Mexican workers have been the backbone of the ag business in the West for 40+ years. Likely longer than that. They used to have a legalized migrant worker program, but illegal immigrants have been a major part of the labor force forever. 

We have friends and family in the orchard business in Eastern Washington. I can recall them talking about their illegal field workers 35 years ago. They periodically tried to hire local Anglos to do the work, but the people they could hire didn't show up on time, didn't work hard, and didn't stick out the harvest season.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
There is no Earthly reason to put in place special supports for independent farming any more than there are for independent gas stations, independent book stores or independent motel operators. Farming in the modern era is a scale business.

Mexican workers have been the backbone of the ag business in the West for 40+ years. Likely longer than that. They used to have a legalized migrant worker program, but illegal immigrants have been a major part of the labor force forever. 

We have friends and family in the orchard business in Eastern Washington. I can recall them talking about their illegal field workers 35 years ago. They periodically tried to hire local Anglos to do the work, but the people they could hire didn't show up on time, didn't work hard, and didn't stick out the harvest season.
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It's not true that there's no reason for it.  The primary one is crop diversity/biodiversity.  I don't care about book shop diversity quite that much. 

Fact is, independent farms are the source of the vast majority of our crop diversity in this country.  And without them, our food source is horribly vulnerable, especially with growing environmental changes. 

 
lakerstan said:
We can have 300 million American customers for our goods and services or we can have 7 billion global customers.  It would seem that more customers = more demand = more Jobs....

The irony against nationalism is that it is in America's best interest to engage globally.
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Well, it does require that American manufacturing companies start producing stuff the rest of the world wants, and not just gas guzzling SUVs and pick up trucks

 
Henry Ford said:
It's not true that there's no reason for it.  The primary one is crop diversity/biodiversity.  I don't care about book shop diversity quite that much. 

Fact is, independent farms are the source of the vast majority of our crop diversity in this country.  And without them, our food source is horribly vulnerable, especially with growing environmental changes. 
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Crop rotation isn't something major agribusinesses do?

That isn't a snarky comment, it is a real question.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Crop rotation isn't something major agribusinesses do?

That isn't a snarky comment, it is a real question.
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We're not talking about rotation, we're talking about diversity.  

Say there are 1,000 different strains of wheat in the world and a blight hits.  Not all strains will be vulnerable to the blight - wheat will survive.  Now say there are 5 strains, all made from the same basic genetic material by Monsanto.  If a blight that destroys those crops hits, we just don't have any wheat in the country/world for however long it takes to eradicate that blight or find seeds from strains that still exist somewhere in the world that we can grow the next time there's a planting season. 

That's bad. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
We're not talking about rotation, we're talking about diversity.  

Say there are 1,000 different strains of wheat in the world and a blight hits.  Not all strains will be vulnerable to the blight - wheat will survive.  Now say there are 5 strains, all made from the same basic genetic material by Monsanto.  If a blight that destroys those crops hits, we just don't have any wheat in the country for however long it takes to eradicate that blight or find strains that exist somewhere in the world that we can grow the next time there's a planting season. 

That's bad. 
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That and climate change are the overriding themes of Paolo Bacigalupi's "The Wind Up Girl" - Excellent near future Sci-Fi IMHO

 
msommer said:
That and climate change are the overriding themes of Paolo Bacigalupi's "The Wind Up Girl" - Excellent near future Sci-Fi IMHO
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There's a great deal of research beginning right now as to whether it's the cause of the sheer number of food allergies we're seeing, too.  Just lack of diversity in the crops leading to kids developing them.  Interesting stuff. 

 
Henry Ford said:
There's a great deal of research beginning right now as to whether it's the cause of the sheer number of food allergies we're seeing, too.  Just lack of diversity in the crops leading to kids developing them.  Interesting stuff. 
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It's clearly vaccines causing them. Duh.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
It's clearly vaccines causing them. Duh.
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Wheat in particular caused scientists to start looking.  There are a huge number of people with Celiac these days, and growing numbers of just unclassified sensitivity to wheat products. They started wondering what's different. Turns out we've gone from massive biodiversity to something like 40% of all farms growing only Monsanto crops. Even more with just wheat.

 
Any attempt to curb illegal immigration is worse than the illegal immigration itself. Just give them all amnesty, and open our borders to allow anyone else who wants to come here the legal ability to do so as long as they're not felons, terrorists, or public health risks. 

I know we'll never do this, but we'd be so much better off as a nation if we did. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Wheat in particular caused scientists to start looking.  There are a huge number of people with Celiac these days, and growing numbers of just unclassified sensitivity to wheat products. They started wondering what's different. Turns out we've gone from massive biodiversity to something like 40% of all farms growing only Monsanto crops. Even more with just wheat.
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What's your point?  That genetically modified wheat causes Celiac?

 
jonessed said:
What's your point?  That genetically modified wheat causes Celiac?
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My point is that scientists are doing research on whether lack of biodiversity in food sources contributes to the rise of food allergies. Did I even use the words genetically modified anywhere in this thread?

 
Henry Ford said:
jonessed said:
What's your point?  That genetically modified wheat causes Celiac?
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My point is that scientists are doing research on whether lack of biodiversity in food sources contributes to the rise of food allergies. Did I even use the words genetically modified anywhere in this threa
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And even if you did, the fact that they were genetically modified wouldn't really be the issue.  The issue would be the cancerous chemicals used to "treat" the crops which created the need for the genetic modification in the first place.....especially if we are talking about Monsanto here.

 
timschochet said:
Any attempt to curb illegal immigration is worse than the illegal immigration itself. Just give them all amnesty, and open our borders to allow anyone else who wants to come here the legal ability to do so as long as they're not felons, terrorists, or public health risks. 

I know we'll never do this, but we'd be so much better off as a nation if we did. 
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That no good liberal George W. Bush proposed the amnesty thing. It didn't go well for him.

 
Henry Ford said:
Wheat in particular caused scientists to start looking.  There are a huge number of people with Celiac these days, and growing numbers of just unclassified sensitivity to wheat products. They started wondering what's different. Turns out we've gone from massive biodiversity to something like 40% of all farms growing only Monsanto crops. Even more with just wheat.
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I've called BS on non-Celiac gluten intolerance in the past. I now believe I was wrong to do that--there are certainly other forms of gluten intolerance that are less severe than Celiac. There are also certainly a lot of trend-following gluten hypochondriacs out there, but that is another topic.

Meandering my way back to my point, I understand that lots of people who have negative gluten reactions have absolutely no issue with eating pasta from Italy. Because they are made from strains of wheat that have a much lower gluten content. 

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
I've called BS on non-Celiac gluten intolerance in the past. I now believe I was wrong to do that--there are certainly other forms of gluten intolerance that are less severe than Celiac. There are also certainly a lot of trend-following gluten hypochondriacs out there, but that is another topic.

Meandering my way back to my point, I understand that lots of people who have negative gluten reactions have absolutely no issue with eating pasta from Italy. Because they are made from strains of wheat that have a much lower gluten content. 
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Are you aware that you are now arguing HF's point?

 
msommer said:
Are you aware that you are now arguing HF's point?
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Yes. I misunderstood his original point as some kind of sentimental "we've got to protect the family farmer" stuff. As a free market libertarian that kind of thinking makes me see red. 

Once I understood that his comment wasn't about that at all, but rather about something I don't know much about and hadn't even considered, the discussion changed course.

I know this sounds crazy, but when I learn new information that I hadn't previously considered, my viewpoints on things can change.

 
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RedmondLonghorn said:
Yes. I misunderstood his original point as some kind of sentimental "we've got to protect the family farmer" stuff. As a free market libertarian that kind of thinking makes me see red. 

Once I understood that his comment wasn't about that at all, but rather about something I don't know much about and hadn't even considered, the discussion changed course.

I know this sounds crazy, but when I learn new information that I hadn't previously considered, my viewpoints on things can change.
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Don't let anyone know here, it'll do your rep no good at all.. 

;)

 
Henry Ford said:
My point is that scientists are doing research on whether lack of biodiversity in food sources contributes to the rise of food allergies. Did I even use the words genetically modified anywhere in this thread?
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No, but that's why Monsanto is so heavily used.  It's the best genetically modified seed available.  The modifications are patented so these trends towards one particular seed are going to happen.

Perhaps I'm not seeing what this has to do with publicly funding independent farmers.

Edit:  Maybe you are referring to independently funded research? That would make sense.

 
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proninja said:
I like this post, and mean this in a helpful way: please look up less vs fewer. 
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I'm aware of the difference but I simply don't think about it when I am firing off a post in here. I am just riffing. In general, it is an area of word usage I am careless with. I'll chalk it up to a personal flaw.

 
elbowrm said:
I am sure this is one of those areas where we will never agree on the facts, but I have seen a number of references over the years that show fairly convincingly that illegal immigrants are a net economic benefit for our overall economy.  The one major exception being unskilled, native-born laborers. 
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Studies I've seen show a small benefit on the Federal level and a decent negative on the state level (due to mandated safety nets/education, etc.)

Henry Ford said:
He has already reduced legal immigration slightly.  His Muslim/refugee ban was aimed at legal immigrants. 
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He didn't reduce it - he kept it from growing from previous levels.

It's important to realize that the US has had, for a long, long time, the most permissive legal immigration policy in the world.  To claim the sky is falling when we're talking about this small amount of refugees(inside noise band) is a bit over the top.

 
Sand said:
Studies I've seen show a small benefit on the Federal level and a decent negative on the state level (due to mandated safety nets/education, etc.)

He didn't reduce it - he kept it from growing from previous levels.

It's important to realize that the US has had, for a long, long time, the most permissive legal immigration policy in the world.  To claim the sky is falling when we're talking about this small amount of refugees(inside noise band) is a bit over the top.
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I'm not sure anyone is suggesting "the sky is falling", simply that Trump is moving us in the wrong direction.  

 
Sand said:
Studies I've seen show a small benefit on the Federal level and a decent negative on the state level (due to mandated safety nets/education, etc.)

He didn't reduce it - he kept it from growing from previous levels.

It's important to realize that the US has had, for a long, long time, the most permissive legal immigration policy in the world.  To claim the sky is falling when we're talking about this small amount of refugees(inside noise band) is a bit over the top.
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All of which is an excellent reason to provide a path for them to become legal residents and, eventually, citizens. Something like two-thirds of illegal immigrants have been here a decade already. They aren't all unskilled or low-skilled workers. Not by a longshot.

The work they do is absolutely critical to our economy.

Deporting all illegal immigrants isn't just logistically impossible, it would be economic suicide. 

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Yes. I misunderstood his original point as some kind of sentimental "we've got to protect the family farmer" stuff. As a free market libertarian that kind of thinking makes me see red. 

Once I understood that his comment wasn't about that at all, but rather about something I don't know much about and hadn't even considered, the discussion changed course.

I know this sounds crazy, but when I learn new information that I hadn't previously considered, my viewpoints on things can change.
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Liberal elitist. 

Now he was against it before he was for it.  

 
jonessed said:
No, but that's why Monsanto is so heavily used.  It's the best genetically modified seed available.  The modifications are patented so these trends towards one particular seed are going to happen.

Perhaps I'm not seeing what this has to do with publicly funding independent farmers.

Edit:  Maybe you are referring to independently funded research? That would make sense.
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I feel like maybe you haven't been reading my posts. 

 
jonessed said:
I have, but apparently I'm not following your thought process.

Not a big deal.  We can let it drop.
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Smaller, Independently owned farms significantly increase biodiversity in crops because smaller, independently owned farms (among other things) tend to

1) seed their old crops/strains because it's free seed; 

2) not share/split seed with their neighbors because they're competition and because they have their own free seed; and

3) encourage small-level cross-breeding and evolution of strains because of 1) and 2) - regular old natural genetic modification happens this way, with cross pollination, especially with wind pollinated crops like wheat (in fact, Monsanto has sued farmers for failing to license the product when neighboring farms have cross pollinated farms and led to the genetic modifications from Monsanto products for free)

Biodiversity is important in crops. Smaller farms help that.  Ergo, I'd like us to help make smaller farms viable again.

 
I am most definitely not in the "anti GMO" crowd.  F that.  India would still be starving after its population boom without genetically modified crops.  And genetic modification happens all the time. Broccoli started out as a mustard plant, it's just a different strain.  Biodiversity means allowing things like that to happen, and if we can make it happen without creating a sentient broccoli monster, I say let's do it.

 
Henry Ford said:
Smaller, Independently owned farms significantly increase biodiversity in crops because smaller, independently owned farms (among other things) tend to

1) seed their old crops/strains because it's free seed; 

2) not share/split seed with their neighbors because they're competition and because they have their own free seed; and

3) encourage small-level cross-breeding and evolution of strains because of 1) and 2) - regular old natural genetic modification happens this way, with cross pollination, especially with wind pollinated crops like wheat (in fact, Monsanto has sued farmers for failing to license the product when neighboring farms have cross pollinated farms and led to the genetic modifications from Monsanto products for free)

Biodiversity is important in crops. Smaller farms help that.  Ergo, I'd like us to help make smaller farms viable again.
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I know a lot of very wealthy independent farmers.  I really don't want to give them any more government money than they are already receiving.

I suppose this all depends on how it's implemented.

 
jonessed said:
I know a lot of very wealthy independent farmers.  I really don't want to give them any more government money than they are already receiving.

I suppose this all depends on how it's implemented.
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I agree.  Devil's in the details. And again, I'm all about ending fallow land subsidies completely. 

I am also a big fan of farmer's markets in rich neighborhoods as a great way for farmers to drive in on weekends and make as much in 2 days as they do selling a month's worth of work to bulk purchasers. 

 
Henry Ford said:
I agree.  Devil's in the details. And again, I'm all about ending fallow land subsidies completely. 

I am also a big fan of farmer's markets in rich neighborhoods as a great way for farmers to drive in on weekends and make as much in 2 days as they do selling a month's worth of work to bulk purchasers. 
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If people are willing to pay it.  The one near me started to go a little haywire.  People pay it though so I can't blame them.

I used to go to one in Sacramento that I loved.  Great stuff and much more reasonably priced.

 
Henry Ford said:
I agree.  Devil's in the details. And again, I'm all about ending fallow land subsidies completely. 

I am also a big fan of farmer's markets in rich neighborhoods as a great way for farmers to drive in on weekends and make as much in 2 days as they do selling a month's worth of work to bulk purchasers. 
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California pays a ton of money to wealthy farmers/ landowners to not develop or farm large swaths of land.  The idea that we would pay people to not develop land in areas that need infrastructure and housing development seems absurd to me.

 
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