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Steve Smith Eagles, new thoughts? (1 Viewer)
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Insein
Footballguy
He's still not 100%. Even when he is, Desean is the goto guy with Maclin getting the rest. Avant has been a solid possession guy and he's goto guy on 3rd downs. I honestly don't know where Smith fits in. He has to learn the offense first and then find a niche. I don't see him having any value unless Maclin or Avant get hurt.
Oscar
Footballguy
It's not however, he probably has two (DeSean and Maclin), maybe three in Avant that are better than him right now. To many mouths to feed on the Eagles. I can't imagine Smith would be a consistent fantasy scorer this year.
tonyftony716
Footballguy
Smith will be involved with more plays each week. slowly the Eagles will incorporate him in the offense. Right now Avant plays his role much better than he could at this stage of his recovery. I don't expect the normal Steve Smith until next season but I wouldn't be surprised if he starts to play a role in the offense in the last quarter of the season(without any setbacks of course).
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NajehHejan
Footballguy
Oops - didn't see this thread - sorry for my recent thread/poll - can they be merged?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Smith is going to be worked into the fold slowly.
Of the receivers, Celek was on the field for all but one play, while Maclin was on the field almost 90% of the time. DeJax was on the field for about 85% of the snaps and Avant saw time in nearly 2/3rds of the offensive plays. Smith, for those wondering, was on the field for 5 plays.
Of the receivers, Celek was on the field for all but one play, while Maclin was on the field almost 90% of the time. DeJax was on the field for about 85% of the snaps and Avant saw time in nearly 2/3rds of the offensive plays. Smith, for those wondering, was on the field for 5 plays.
NeverEnough
Footballguy
Once Smith is 100% healthy, he will take Avant's place.
Insein
Footballguy
IF he knows the playbook. Avant is better than people think. He's been in this system for 5 years now. He plays his role perfectly. Even if Steve Smith took Avant's job full time, he'd only be looking at 40-50 catches for 500-600 yards. That's what the slot does in Reid's offense. Desean and Maclin are the main event. Avant is the reliable move the chains guy. Smith would have the same role. I just don't see any value in Steve Smith this season.
Interesting. A goto guy who averaged just over 3 catches a game last year. Strange that "the rest" was larger than the main portion last year.If this guy is big on Avant, that might warrant a bump to Steve Smith.
Insein
Footballguy
Desean had a 22.5 yards per catch to Maclin's 13.8. Desean also had 1000 more yards on the season with 2 less games played. Who's the goto guy on the team?
Oscar
Footballguy
Could you give me Andy Reid's phone number? I'd like to ask him what the RB distribution will look like this week.
SouthJersey
Footballguy
Dunno about this. Avant has really good hands, knows the playbook and is a great down field blocker for his teammates. I think Smith will be worked into the mix, but its not a lock that he just takes Avant's spot once he's 100%.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Similar to the Patriots, I think the issue for Smith is that there are too many other offensive options that will repress Smith's production (even when/if he gets healthy).
In other words, others will have to lose production for Smith to gain it. As I see it, Smith will have to overcome Lecoy running/receiving, Jackson, Macklin, Vick running, Celek, and Avant. There is a finite amount of offense that will come from the Eagles . . . they can't just add onto what they have and dump "extra" onto Smith.
As long as all the options I listed are healthy, I don't see Smith getting much more than crumbs and table scraps . . . ESPECIALLY if Smith is still in recovery and still learning the offense. He will need to have to learn more than go routes to get the ball.
IMO, I don't see Smith having much fantasy value this year.
In other words, others will have to lose production for Smith to gain it. As I see it, Smith will have to overcome Lecoy running/receiving, Jackson, Macklin, Vick running, Celek, and Avant. There is a finite amount of offense that will come from the Eagles . . . they can't just add onto what they have and dump "extra" onto Smith.
As long as all the options I listed are healthy, I don't see Smith getting much more than crumbs and table scraps . . . ESPECIALLY if Smith is still in recovery and still learning the offense. He will need to have to learn more than go routes to get the ball.
IMO, I don't see Smith having much fantasy value this year.
mlball77
Footballguy
I tend to agree with those that think Smith has limited upside this year, since the receiving pie in PHI is only so big and there are players that will continue to get significant slices.
Looking forward, things could change for Smith, possibly. How long is he under contract for PHI?
Looking forward, things could change for Smith, possibly. How long is he under contract for PHI?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Just this year.
mlball77
Footballguy
Oh, ok. Then he might really be a good dynasty buy if he has several stinker games to start off the season. Assuming you can wait to see if his situation improves next year.
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gonzobill5
Footballguy
Wow, didn't remember DJax being THAT good last year. I'm pretty certain that the Eagles signed Smith to:
a) give depth if Maclin was sick
b) piss the Giants off
He wasn't brought in to replace Avant. I think he could take some of Avant's snaps down the road, but that won't make him relevant.
If you choose to pick him up and stash him, you are hoping for an injury to Maclin/Jackson. That is a real possibility, and could pay off. Just don't expect him to do much until that happens.
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Insein
Footballguy
Typo obviously. 100 more yards.Injury is the only play for redraft. Maclin injury would be the key. Even then, it'll all depend on how well he knows the offense. I think dynasty players have the right attitude to grab him while he's down and stuck in a useless position in the hopes that he'll find a place to play next year.
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Five plays isn't much. Thanks for the info. It's a toe in the water I guess. All summer I heard November and late October and...definitely not week 1.Why is it people think these Eagles WRs are Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, and Torry Holt? An injured player shouldn't be able to beat out a quality player ahead of him. Totally agree, makes sense etc. But a healthy Smith is an excellent WR. He was developing so well, umm perfectly? I mean third year is the year for WRs and he had 107 catches-15 against the Eagles. That's about as perfect as can be the way we project things for young WRs. In 7 games he had 48 catches last year which is probably 100+ in a 16 game season and all. The Eagles had that big tall lanky guy with long arms that somehow makes big catches as their fourth or fifth WR. I lost track of Baskett switching teams, so I'm unsure of him. They had depth that produced in limited roles. There's next to no reason to pay Smith's salary in any scenario presented here in this thread. Well, makes the Giants weaker is one point I guess.I guess what's throwing me is Smith is getting no credit here short of Yudkin's comparison to the Pats. All three are young WRs and he's clearly done more and performed better than Maclin and Avant in his time in the pros. He had to drive ya nuts two years ago when he had 15 catches. Where's the Smith love? Weren't ya glad to get him?
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Given the career stats by each player, why is it all that far fetched that Smith could unseat Avant? I get the signing to piss off the Giants, but that can't be the only reason. The guy, when healthy, has serious skills and could wind up as Wr2 on this team given Maclins health concerns.
Why is supplanting Avant all that difficult? I don't know the guys career stats as I type this from my phone, but what has he done in his 5 years with the Eagles that makes him impervious to competition from a guy like Smith?
Why is supplanting Avant all that difficult? I don't know the guys career stats as I type this from my phone, but what has he done in his 5 years with the Eagles that makes him impervious to competition from a guy like Smith?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Let's try this again in a little more detail. Without setting foot on the field, Smith had these issues:Banged up from a serious injury/surgery.Little to no training camp.Very little chance to even get a playbook let alone get acclimated to it.No playing time with starting QB.No experience in the offense run in PHI.Went from #1 option in the receiving game (in terms of catches) to 6th after McCoy, Jackson, Macklin, Avant, and Celek.Think Ochocinco going to New England, except Smith is recovering from injury.Now let's look at what has happened when Vick has played with PHI. He's now played 13 games as the primary QB between last year, the playoff game, and this year. In those games, Vick has averaqed 20.5 completions per game with the pass distribution having been:McCoy 4.4 receptions/gmMacklin 4.2 receptions/gmJackson 3.8 receptions/gmAvant 3.3 receptions/gmCelek 2.5 receptions/gmAs a footnote, almost half of Avant's receptions came in 3 games, meaning the other 10 games he was little more than an afterthought.Smith on the Giants averaged nearly 7 catches a game. I don't see him doing that this year in PHI even if he were 100% healthy and even if he passed Avant as the WR3. I doubt he would come close to that even if he became an every down starter. There are just too many guys that will catch the football. As referenced previously, whatever Smith gains in production, someone else has to lose. You can't just simply add a bunch of receptions/yardage/TD for Smith.For now, Smith isn't healthy, he is not a big cog in the offense, and so far he has barely gotten on the field. That all could change, but IMO it would take Smith being pretty close to all the way back health wise and an injury to Jackson or Macklin for Smith to have much fantasy value THIS YEAR in Philadelphia. Who knows where he will be in 2012.Could it happen? Sure. But I doubt Smith will get healthy and have a grasp of the offense until halfway into the season. He's probably worth a stash as a flyer for late in the season or for roster depth in deep, deep leagues. But I don't see his totals being all that great this year. Even if he stakes claim to the WR3 position, his totals would be lukewarm unless Avant didn't play at all (ie, unless Smith got 100% of Avant's numbers, splitting them with Avant would leave both almost totally useless fantasywise).
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petenice15
Footballguy
Smith is one of the best route runners in the NFL. He is one of those guys that is always open. If he is 80%, he's going to be on the field. The Eagles didn't pay $4 million for a 4th receiver or a 6th option to catch passes behind Celek and McCoy, as some have stated. I really think people should be ahead of the curve on this one and stash him if they can.
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
Maybe they paid him so he wouldn't play for the Giants. He's also not a bad insurance policy for later in the season should something happen to Maclin, Jackson or Avant.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
And the Patriots didn't pay $6 million for (a healthy) Ochocinco to be their 6th receiving option either, yet for the moment that's where he's at too.I'm not saying I don't like Smith as a receivier. I do. I've owned him every year since he came into the league (and still do). But he has an uphill battle this year to becoming fantasy relevant in 2011. While his 2009 season was great, how he will do in a completely different set of circumstances is hard to predict. Anquan Boldin was a good example. Some felt he could just transition to BAL and become an even better fantasy option. It didn't work out that way.IF and that's a big IF Smith is as good as some people are saying, his health and ability quickly return to 100%, he masters the playbook, he has chemistry with Vick, another PHI receiver gets dinged, and/or another PHI receiver is not as talented, then Smith would be primed for some decent production THIS SEASON. But those are a lot of ifs.
Insein
Footballguy
People are equating what Smith did in past seasons to what they think he can do in Philly. Smith had a report with Eli. He was the Amani Toomer of that Giants offense. He owned the mid and short range routes. Eli looked for him as the first read on many pass plays. He was a possession WR with Plaxico the deep threat but he was basically the #! guy in NY. Here in philly, he's coming off a season ending injury. He's studying a brand new offense that he only had 4 weeks of training camp to get. He has 3 quality guys ahead of him, 2 of which are arguably better talents. For Smith to have ANY VALUE this season, he would need to have a full grasp of the playbook and Maclin or Desean need to get hurt. He may start splitting plays with Avant mid season but as Yudkin said, Avant is not a key cog in this offense. He's a role player. Taking half or all of a role player's catches isn't going to be fantasy worthy. Steve Smith was an excellent player in NY that got injured. He may have value again in the seasons to come but this year, he will not be fantasy relevant without an injury to Desean or Maclin.
petenice15
Footballguy
I really think people are really over rating the fact that a Steve Smith needs time to learn the play book. He's a really smart player, with a strong work ethic and let's not forget, he's a receiver. A smart WR can learn a playbook in a few weeks, it's not like he's playing QB. Ocho has a problem with the Pats system because he isn't and never was a precise route runner, which clearly you have to be in NE.
I really think people are underestimating his potential in the offense. This is a pass first team that has to keep Celek in to block more often then not bc their OL has holes. DeSean and Maclin are deep threats and Avant isn't on Smith's level. I may be wrong here, but considering he dressed week 1 when the Giants didn't think he'd be ready until week 7, he's clearly ahead of schedule. In my opinion, the tools are there and the opportunities will be as well especially in PPR leagues.
I really think people are underestimating his potential in the offense. This is a pass first team that has to keep Celek in to block more often then not bc their OL has holes. DeSean and Maclin are deep threats and Avant isn't on Smith's level. I may be wrong here, but considering he dressed week 1 when the Giants didn't think he'd be ready until week 7, he's clearly ahead of schedule. In my opinion, the tools are there and the opportunities will be as well especially in PPR leagues.
I think Smith will only have value if Jackson or Maclin are clearly out. I could see him having a couple good games for fantasy with them healthy, but it's going to be almost impossible to predict when that will come, so you'll never be able to play him. You almost have to view him as a WR handcuff.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
The goto guy will be the guy who gets the most targets.. YAC doesn't tell you which WR is gone to the most..D-Jax had 47 catches, to Maclin's 70... Maclin is the goto guy when healthy.
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Desean is electric and oddly enough has many similar qualities to the Carolina Steve Smith. He's fantastic.
NYG/PHI Steve Smith is better than Maclin and Avant. I wouldn't doubt he is part of the reason the Eagles have revamped their secondary so much the last few years. Nicks and Smith were impressive and Mario seemed to pop up, then the Denver pretender has a few good games, and the Gmen drafted a wealth of potential (never realized) in Ramses Barden. Somehow amidst this the Giants lost an all-pro caliber WR and it didn't even matter. There's no way the Eagles didn't notice and it had to force their hand in how they adjusted their team.
The falcons have had a few coaches resurrect that run and shoot for a few plays over the years. I don't know if Vick played in that. It got so diluted it became just a 4 WR offense but... nonetheless, I think the thoughts here need to be including Smith. He runs awesome routes (we are discussing that on an FF MB, geesh that doesn't happen often) and has soft hands. The notions above that Vick might have any negative feelings about Smith are just plain silly. Any QB would like Smith as a target.
Like many, I frowned upon RBBC because many coaches did it poorly. When some did it well, I embraced it. Giants, Dolphins for a year, BB, BP have been smart about it and the results were obvious. Sending Desean deep, then Smith comes in on next play, is that an option? Does that make it fresh legs always on the field? Reid having some WRBC idea here is something I could embrace. It might surprise some, but 3rd and short, I'd probably prefer Avant and Smith in.
I think some Celek love has been overblown and it's possible the Eagles are moving forward. Not that he stinks, not at all, just that it might be in their best interest to have a different player targeted with so many passes.
Over the years, the best coaches in the NFL have been about matchups and made it a game within a game that they win. I personally think they wanted to get Desean the ball more and he was blanketed too often. If a healthy Smith gets a couple quick catches and the defensive coordinator needs to rethink who should be covered by their top DB, I'm confident Reid would love that game within a game. If Maclin in the backfield shifting to the slot forces the D to get confused, yeah Reid's gonna jump on that. If any of these WRs going deep opens things up for Vick to run circles around defenders, let em' all take turns running deep each play. Does that clear out anything for the RBs underneath?
IMO the Eagles need to get a healthy Smith a handful of catches one week so he's back to drawing attention.
One other thing-Smith is a very good blocker. I don't recall Desean and Maclin's ability. I imagine Smith may be a better blocker. We're only discussing pass plays and just figured I'd mention that might get him on the field too. I mean it's not like we'd notice this in the stat column if Maclin missed every assured run on first down.
I don't know what it will be, but I think there's gotta be more suggestions as to how he will be used than just sitting him on the sideline. I just can't buy that logic, in fact it lacks much of any. Many comments here would only make sense if the Eagles planned to trade Smith and were just buying time while he healed.
NYG/PHI Steve Smith is better than Maclin and Avant. I wouldn't doubt he is part of the reason the Eagles have revamped their secondary so much the last few years. Nicks and Smith were impressive and Mario seemed to pop up, then the Denver pretender has a few good games, and the Gmen drafted a wealth of potential (never realized) in Ramses Barden. Somehow amidst this the Giants lost an all-pro caliber WR and it didn't even matter. There's no way the Eagles didn't notice and it had to force their hand in how they adjusted their team.
The falcons have had a few coaches resurrect that run and shoot for a few plays over the years. I don't know if Vick played in that. It got so diluted it became just a 4 WR offense but... nonetheless, I think the thoughts here need to be including Smith. He runs awesome routes (we are discussing that on an FF MB, geesh that doesn't happen often) and has soft hands. The notions above that Vick might have any negative feelings about Smith are just plain silly. Any QB would like Smith as a target.
Like many, I frowned upon RBBC because many coaches did it poorly. When some did it well, I embraced it. Giants, Dolphins for a year, BB, BP have been smart about it and the results were obvious. Sending Desean deep, then Smith comes in on next play, is that an option? Does that make it fresh legs always on the field? Reid having some WRBC idea here is something I could embrace. It might surprise some, but 3rd and short, I'd probably prefer Avant and Smith in.
I think some Celek love has been overblown and it's possible the Eagles are moving forward. Not that he stinks, not at all, just that it might be in their best interest to have a different player targeted with so many passes.
Over the years, the best coaches in the NFL have been about matchups and made it a game within a game that they win. I personally think they wanted to get Desean the ball more and he was blanketed too often. If a healthy Smith gets a couple quick catches and the defensive coordinator needs to rethink who should be covered by their top DB, I'm confident Reid would love that game within a game. If Maclin in the backfield shifting to the slot forces the D to get confused, yeah Reid's gonna jump on that. If any of these WRs going deep opens things up for Vick to run circles around defenders, let em' all take turns running deep each play. Does that clear out anything for the RBs underneath?
IMO the Eagles need to get a healthy Smith a handful of catches one week so he's back to drawing attention.
One other thing-Smith is a very good blocker. I don't recall Desean and Maclin's ability. I imagine Smith may be a better blocker. We're only discussing pass plays and just figured I'd mention that might get him on the field too. I mean it's not like we'd notice this in the stat column if Maclin missed every assured run on first down.
I don't know what it will be, but I think there's gotta be more suggestions as to how he will be used than just sitting him on the sideline. I just can't buy that logic, in fact it lacks much of any. Many comments here would only make sense if the Eagles planned to trade Smith and were just buying time while he healed.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Based on what? I disagree.This is Maclin's 3rd season.Maclin's 1st season > Smith's 1st seasonMaclin's 2nd season > Smith's 2nd seasonIt's probably not likely that Maclin will out due Smiths 3rd season in 2011 based on his health coming into the season, and having to split targets with D-Jax, but he's likely out due him for 2011 stats, and he's likely going to finish with a better career.
107 catches and 47 in seven is "best of" type good. 70 is quite ordinary especially playing in the shadow of a guy like Desean. I don't know of a WR that had 100 catches and wasn't excellent. It's a good barometer IMO. 70 doesn't mean squat. There's been tons and tons of NFL WRs to grab 70 receptions.Desean is fantastic, no doubt. How can you use that in a Steve Smith discussion as if Smith didn't have anyone to beat out or "fight" for catches? If it's Maclin will be better, develop into a better pro...when? When Smith crosses that 30 year mark and winds down? If Maclin ever grabs 100, we can rediscuss if you'd like. 70 is roughly two thirds of 107. It's not close.
netnalp
Footballguy
He got a 1 year payday. I think if the Giants are still interested in him, and I think they will, that's where opportunity and money might be the best. Could work out for the Giants, they might be able to get him for less than what they were going to pay last summer. Even if the Giants draft a WR, I could see them signing Smith since he performed well in the system.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
If Maclin stays on pace, he'll be close to that 100 rec mark.. On pace for 98.66
