Steve Tasker & Brian Mitchell -- Special Teams aces (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

STEVE TASKER

Although Tasker was listed as a wide receiver, and played occasionally at that position during his career (especially in his later years with the Bills), he is mostly remembered for his work on special teams. Despite a diminutive stature by NFL standards (5'8", 183 lb, or 1.73 m, 83 kg), Tasker gained a reputation as one of the league's most feared hitters as he covered both punt and kickoff returns (known as being a gunner), forcing numerous fumbles by opposing return men. Contributing to his success in breaking up kick returns was his great speed; Tasker was almost always the first player to reach the return man, gaining an advantage of several seconds for his team. He was the first player to establish himself as a major star almost exclusively through special teams play without being either a kicker or a return man. Tasker played in seven Pro Bowls (1987 and 1990-1995) as a special-teamer and was named the game's MVP in 1993. Many consider him to be the greatest special teams player of all time with a spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame awaiting in the years to come. In his last career game, he was ejected for protesting a muffed Bills punt and bumping an official.

BRIAN MITCHELL

Mitchell was well known as a kick returner, and is the NFL's second all time leader in total yardage (23,316), thanks in large part to his 14,014 yards from kickoff returns and his 4,999 punt return yards. Both are NFL records. He also rushed for 1,967 yards, caught 255 passes for 2,336 yards, recovered 20 fumbles for 14 return yards, and scored 29 touchdowns (4 kickoff returns, 9 punt returns, 12 rushing, 4 receiving). His 13 special teams touchdowns are also an NFL record. He is also one of only four players to record four seasons of over 2,000 total yards, (the others being Marshall Faulk, Dante Hall and Tiki Barber) and missed out on a fifth by only five yards.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

huge Tasker fan as a player and I'd love to see him get in someday.

can't stand him as a broadcaster though. one of the worst color guys on tv.

 

[Raider Nation]

huge Tasker fan as a player and I'd love to see him get in someday.can't stand him as a broadcaster though. one of the worst color guys on tv.

Fortunately, he's always working a crap game and the volume is never on for me.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Neither. There is no way that either player is a HOF'er and it would lower the standards of the Hall if either got in.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Neither. There is no way that either player is a HOF'er and it would lower the standards of the Hall if either got in.

Agreed.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

 

[Tau837]

Neither. There is no way that either player is a HOF'er and it would lower the standards of the Hall if either got in.

 

[Tau837]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

No love for Bill Bates?

 

[Mr. Peterson]

Tasker - Tasker - Tasker

 

[Tau837]

Oh, by the way, as for which is more deserving, it is Mitchell IMO. But neither one will get in.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Oh, by the way, as for which is more deserving, it is Mitchell IMO. But neither one will get in.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

Yes and you make some good points. But I'd like to hear from others here, like Chase, with reasons besides the tired "Special Team players don't deserve it" crap.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

Yes and you make some good points. But I'd like to hear from others here, like Chase, with reasons besides the tired "Special Team players don't deserve it" crap.

I don't think Steve Tasker was added more value to his team over the course of his career than Terrell Davis.

 

[alg]

An interesting aside on Tasker. Kelly used to get after the coaches for not playing Tasker as a WR. If you recall he did a pretty amazing job filling in for (Brooks?) toward the end of the glory years. He also had to take on more return responsibilities during that time. The guy could do it all.

As the story goes, Kelly said Tasker was the best rout runner on the team. A team that included 2 HOF caliber WRs I might add (Reed and Lofton.) Kelly would tell them that NO ONE could cover him, and that if he had had the chance at WR, he could have had a Steve Largent type career.

Pretty high praise from a guy who understood what made a good WR.

Oh, and hell ya, Tasker will be the 1st ST ace elected to the HOF.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

Yes and you make some good points. But I'd like to hear from others here, like Chase, with reasons besides the tired "Special Team players don't deserve it" crap.

I don't think Steve Tasker was added more value to his team over the course of his career than Terrell Davis.

many people think Terrell Davis deserves to make the Hall of Fame....strange comparison.

 

[alg]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

Yes and you make some good points. But I'd like to hear from others here, like Chase, with reasons besides the tired "Special Team players don't deserve it" crap.

I don't think Steve Tasker was added more value to his team over the course of his career than Terrell Davis.

Tasker made BIG contributions all over the field, and single handedly brought attention and much respect to that portion of the game. He would force a fumble on a return, block a punt or FG, and then have a big return for field position. And make some big 3rd down catches. There are many guys who have had great careers as RBs - in and out of the HOF. There has only been one Tasker in the modern NFL.He is probably my favorite Bill of all time. High praise for a special teamer playing along side Kelly, Reed, Lofton, Thomas, Bennett, Tally, Odam, Wolford, Ballard, Hull, Hansen and Bruce Smith.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

speaking of Bills special teams greats, Mark Pike wasn't too far behind Tasker.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/AlumniSpotlightMarkPike.jsp

In ‘87, hamstring and foot problems kept Pike on IR for all but three games. However, the following season, Pike was moved back to defensive end, but more notably, he made his first mark in the area of the game that he’d excel in - special teams.

"It actually all worked out really well," says Pike. "In ‘88, they drafted Shane Conlan and traded for Cornelius Bennett, so they asked me if I wanted to go back and play defensive line. I got back to a position that I was a little more familiar with. Ted Cottrell was my defensive line coach that year and I think he saw a lot of the same things that they saw in me at linebacker. I got back to playing on the defensive line again and then, of course, I was on special teams. That first year, I made some big hits and some big plays and kind of captured the eye of Marv Levy and (special teams) coach Bruce DeHaven. One game in particular was against Pittsburgh. I had a really big hit on a kickoff and in a way that was probably my stamp. It was one of those hits you dream about. You don’t get real often.

"Once I made that hit, it was like all of a sudden, they looked at me differently. They looked at me as: Wow! Mark Pike, he can really play special teams! It was just a play that happens sometimes and it kind of catapults you into the minds of the coaches as a real formable player. Of course, it gives you as a player confidence and it gives the coaches confidence and it just snowballed from there."

It was more like an avalanche. Over eight of the next 10 seasons, Pike was the leading tackler on special teams. One other season, he co-led the team. He and teammate Steve Tasker demonstrated just how special teams got its name and why they were very special special teams players.

"I realized early that that was my meal ticket," Pike said. "I don’t want to say we didn’t focus on our positions, but we put the extra focus to our special teams, making that as important as playing offense or defense. We prepared that way, we studied film that way, we practiced that way. Steve and I became the two leaders of the special teams for years because of that. Later in my career, half the time I felt like I was a coach. We had so many young players, I was the guy that everybody came to. Your coaches can coach you so much, but then the younger players like to talk to players who have been through it.

"We just took it more seriously than a lot of players do. We took it to the next level. I played special teams at a time when the importance of special teams were really evolving in the league and, obviously, Steve did too. We were, I don’t want to say pioneers, but we were two guys that really were there and were really good performers when the special teams was really becoming big in the league and the importance was becoming universal among all the teams."

Pike was with the Bills for 13 seasons, playing in 173 games, which ties him for seventh on Buffalo’s all-time list with Thurman Thomas, and finished his career with a team-record 283 special teams tackles.

 

[GoBills02]

speaking of Bills special teams greats, Mark Pike wasn't too far behind Tasker.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/AlumniSpotlightMarkPike.jsp

In ‘87, hamstring and foot problems kept Pike on IR for all but three games. However, the following season, Pike was moved back to defensive end, but more notably, he made his first mark in the area of the game that he’d excel in - special teams.

"It actually all worked out really well," says Pike. "In ‘88, they drafted Shane Conlan and traded for Cornelius Bennett, so they asked me if I wanted to go back and play defensive line. I got back to a position that I was a little more familiar with. Ted Cottrell was my defensive line coach that year and I think he saw a lot of the same things that they saw in me at linebacker. I got back to playing on the defensive line again and then, of course, I was on special teams. That first year, I made some big hits and some big plays and kind of captured the eye of Marv Levy and (special teams) coach Bruce DeHaven. One game in particular was against Pittsburgh. I had a really big hit on a kickoff and in a way that was probably my stamp. It was one of those hits you dream about. You don’t get real often.

"Once I made that hit, it was like all of a sudden, they looked at me differently. They looked at me as: Wow! Mark Pike, he can really play special teams! It was just a play that happens sometimes and it kind of catapults you into the minds of the coaches as a real formable player. Of course, it gives you as a player confidence and it gives the coaches confidence and it just snowballed from there."

It was more like an avalanche. Over eight of the next 10 seasons, Pike was the leading tackler on special teams. One other season, he co-led the team. He and teammate Steve Tasker demonstrated just how special teams got its name and why they were very special special teams players.

"I realized early that that was my meal ticket," Pike said. "I don’t want to say we didn’t focus on our positions, but we put the extra focus to our special teams, making that as important as playing offense or defense. We prepared that way, we studied film that way, we practiced that way. Steve and I became the two leaders of the special teams for years because of that. Later in my career, half the time I felt like I was a coach. We had so many young players, I was the guy that everybody came to. Your coaches can coach you so much, but then the younger players like to talk to players who have been through it.

"We just took it more seriously than a lot of players do. We took it to the next level. I played special teams at a time when the importance of special teams were really evolving in the league and, obviously, Steve did too. We were, I don’t want to say pioneers, but we were two guys that really were there and were really good performers when the special teams was really becoming big in the league and the importance was becoming universal among all the teams."

Pike was with the Bills for 13 seasons, playing in 173 games, which ties him for seventh on Buffalo’s all-time list with Thurman Thomas, and finished his career with a team-record 283 special teams tackles.

Thanks for the read Aaron.And come on...Steve Tasker was Pro bowl MVP one year......

If Ray Guy gets in, Steve Tasker gets in.

 

[Restricted]

Steve Tasker was a special player and really fun to watch. I have an eternal bet with my brother that he never makes it to the HOF thanks to some verbal loophole that he caught me in so I'm hoping no.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Tasker should definitely make it.

He was such an impact player at Special Teams (A very imporatant aspect of the game, just look at Vinatieri's career.) that they had to invent a position at the Pro-Bowl for him. There is no doubt he should be in. He is far and away the best ever at what he did.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker will be in within 5 years.

No chance. Zero. I would elaborate, but you and I have already had this conversation in other threads.

Yes and you make some good points. But I'd like to hear from others here, like Chase, with reasons besides the tired "Special Team players don't deserve it" crap.

I don't think Steve Tasker was added more value to his team over the course of his career than Terrell Davis.

I disagree. Now all we need are the Art Monk groupies in here and we're ready for a party.

 

[Tau837]

Old debate on Tasker and special teams players in general:

We want Tasker!!

I'd take Tasker for the HOF before TD.

Old post on this:

We won't likely ever have the best holder, long snapper, kickoff specialist, kickoff returner, or punt returner in the HOF, unless by chance the player was HOF caliber at another position. Where is the line? It is questionable if or when another kicker or any punter will be inducted. Given that, I don't see Tasker or any other special teams coverage player making it. It appears to me that the line among players has been drawn after offense & defense, with Jan Stenerud as the lone exception.

I remember the other thread when you wrote that and I still disagree. He wasn't a long snapper or holder or something. He cover kicks, he covered punts, he returned kicks, he returned punts, I think that for a short time he may have been a holder and oh yeah, when they really needed him to play WR, he did that too. He was the MVP of a Pro Bowl. I think that he meant more to his team than Jan Stenerud or Ray Guy or anyone else from special teams you'll ever see.

Even if a special teams player could make the HOF, there have been other great special teams players. How does one make the assessment that Tasker is the best ever? For example, what makes him better than Brian Mitchell, the NFL career leader in kickoff return yards, punt return yards, and special teams TDs and #2 in career total yards? Do you think he will make the HOF?

His versatility. Mitchell just returned and played some RB. Tasker covered kicks and punts. Opposing teams will game plan their kickoffs and punts around an excellent return man all the time. I don't think that they often game plan their return game around a cover guy and IIRC, that's what alot of teams did to Tasker. Plus he did some returns and did play a year or two of WR. I tend to view guys who just return, or are mainly used on returns, as RBs or WRs or CBs: Mitchell, Gray, Metcalf. None of those guys covered kicks and punts. He was the best at that since it was really recognized as an important skill, which I think coincidentally was when Marv Levy was coaching special teams for Kansas City and opened some eyes to how important special teams could be. The only one close to Tasker in my opinion was Billy Bates from the Cowboys. I believe that Special Teams are a very important part of the sport and the only other major sport to have a sort of separate "special teams" section, baseball, is starting to see relievers and designated hitters inducted into the Baseball HOF. Now, I know that in alot of ways the baseball HOF is a joke, but I do think the precedent is being set for the football HOF.

Are you a Bills fan? Just curious.Here's another way to look at this. How many big plays do you think an average HOFer makes per game or per season? How many impact plays did Aikman, Reggie White, Carson, Moon, and Wright make per game or season, just using last year's HOF class as an example? Now... how many did Tasker make per game and/or per season as a special teams player? Same argument applies to kickers and punters, which is why I think they have not been recognized in the HOF like other positions. I believe the view is that even for the best kickers, punters, returners, and special teams cover players, there is not a large delta between them and the average players in those positions/roles. On those Bills teams, there were a number of potential HOFers: Kelly, Thomas, Reed, and Bruce Smith come immediately to mind. Removing any one of those players from those teams would have had a tremendously greater impact than removing Tasker.It's not happening. We can agree to disagree.And, by the way, the designated hitter comparison is a bad one. What designated hitters have made the baseball HOF? I assume you must be referring to Molitor... First of all, playing DH is equivalent to starting on offense in the NFL anyway. Plus, Molitor played the field for more than half of his career, anyway. And finally, Molitor compiled all time great level offensive statistics... he is #9 on the all time hits list. None of this is comparable to Tasker. But, as you say, the baseball HOF is a joke anyway.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Can't remember what I responded to this, but I might be inclined to disagree about Reed. I think Tasker was more important than Reed, in the sense that Tasker was more irreplaceable than Reed and that the Delta between Tasker and the next best guy (probably Pike) was greater than the Delta between reed and the next best guy (probably Lofton). I would personally put Tasker in the HOF before Reed (and before Monk and Davis, lol).

 

[massraider]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.

I don't see that happening.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.I don't see that happening.

Yes and no. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, nor do I know if they are available. But how many special teams plays are there a game? What if Tasker was on the field for 5 of the 6 different special teams plays (kick, kick return, FG/XPt, FG/XPt defense, punt, punt return) for each game? How many plays is that compared to the number of offensive or defensive plays in a game? I think people are thinking he was just the gunner on punts or the punt returner. But what if he was on the field for 5 of those 6 plays every game? That's a little bit better than Ray Guy just being out there for punts, isn't it?

 

[Sidewinder16]

Neither. There is no way that either player is a HOF'er and it would lower the standards of the Hall if either got in.

Agreed.

For the bolded part, how so?I don't disagree that the chances of these two being elected are almost nonexistent, but how does the inclusion of the best players at what they do lower the standards of the Hall?

 

[stevegamer]

They both have cases, but are behind Ray Guy in line, sicne punter has been a position longer.

I think Mitchell is ahead of Tasker, as it's really hard to pick anyone else as the best return man of all time over him.

Look at it this way - the HoF started electing kickers when there started to be just kickers. They started electing one-way players when there started to be one-way players. Just because the game is becoming more specialized doesn't mean those players aren't the best at their role. The question becomes where do you draw the line on the roles.

I think if a guy is the best at his position, he should get in. I think it's fair to define punter as a position. I know there are people who will argue that, or that it's not a "real" position - they need to realize that if the NFL franchises think it's waorth carrying a guy to just punt, it's a position. End became TE & WR, defensive back became S & CB, etc.

 

[Tau837]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.I don't see that happening.

Yes and no. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, nor do I know if they are available. But how many special teams plays are there a game? What if Tasker was on the field for 5 of the 6 different special teams plays (kick, kick return, FG/XPt, FG/XPt defense, punt, punt return) for each game? How many plays is that compared to the number of offensive or defensive plays in a game? I think people are thinking he was just the gunner on punts or the punt returner. But what if he was on the field for 5 of those 6 plays every game? That's a little bit better than Ray Guy just being out there for punts, isn't it?

Well, this past season:Teams ranged from 898 to 1075 offensive plays. The Giants were 16th with 1003.Teams ranged from 930 to 1062 defensive plays. The Chiefs were 16th with 999.Teams ranged from 47 to 100 punts. A few teams were tied at #16 with 77.Teams ranged from 56 to 92 kickoffs. The Seahawks were 16th with 75.I think it's appropriate to use the same number for kick returns as for combined punts and kickoffs, in order to eliminate those that were not returned even though the play happened. So I'll use 152 for the number of kick returns.So someone who was a HOF caliber player on offense presumably played the majority of ~1000 snaps, possibly every snap, depending on position. Same for a HOF caliber player who played defense. In contrast, a special teams player who played every snap for kickoffs, punts, and kick returns, probably played only ~300 plays.You mentioned field goals and extra points as if Tasker played those. Did he? Even if so (last season):Teams ranged from 16 to 59 TDs, and thus potential extra point attempts. The Titans were 16th with 36.It looks like individual kickers attempted between 22 and 37 field goals, couldn't find team attempts quickly for some reason.So even if Tasker played on field goals and extra points, it would only add about 75 more plays or so. He'd still be at ~375 special teams plays, playing every single one of them, which would leave him at less than half the number of plays a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player would play in a regular season.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I don't really understand going down the path that a special teams player doesn't play a high enough % of plays to warrant being a HOF. Jan Stenerud is in the HOF. I'd be willing to bet that Adam Vinatieri gets there as well.

It doesn't matter how many plays you play. It matters what you do when you get the chance to play.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.I don't see that happening.

Yes and no. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, nor do I know if they are available. But how many special teams plays are there a game? What if Tasker was on the field for 5 of the 6 different special teams plays (kick, kick return, FG/XPt, FG/XPt defense, punt, punt return) for each game? How many plays is that compared to the number of offensive or defensive plays in a game? I think people are thinking he was just the gunner on punts or the punt returner. But what if he was on the field for 5 of those 6 plays every game? That's a little bit better than Ray Guy just being out there for punts, isn't it?

Well, this past season:Teams ranged from 898 to 1075 offensive plays. The Giants were 16th with 1003.Teams ranged from 930 to 1062 defensive plays. The Chiefs were 16th with 999.Teams ranged from 47 to 100 punts. A few teams were tied at #16 with 77.Teams ranged from 56 to 92 kickoffs. The Seahawks were 16th with 75.I think it's appropriate to use the same number for kick returns as for combined punts and kickoffs, in order to eliminate those that were not returned even though the play happened. So I'll use 152 for the number of kick returns.So someone who was a HOF caliber player on offense presumably played the majority of ~1000 snaps, possibly every snap, depending on position. Same for a HOF caliber player who played defense. In contrast, a special teams player who played every snap for kickoffs, punts, and kick returns, probably played only ~300 plays.You mentioned field goals and extra points as if Tasker played those. Did he? Even if so (last season):Teams ranged from 16 to 59 TDs, and thus potential extra point attempts. The Titans were 16th with 36.It looks like individual kickers attempted between 22 and 37 field goals, couldn't find team attempts quickly for some reason.So even if Tasker played on field goals and extra points, it would only add about 75 more plays or so. He'd still be at ~375 special teams plays, playing every single one of them, which would leave him at less than half the number of plays a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player would play in a regular season.

Well, I don't know how often he played on FG and Xtra Points, but he won the MVP in the Pro Bowl in part due to blocking the potential game winning FG for the NFC, IIRC. The only issue I still have with that is that you're assuming an equal amount of impact per play. I'm not comparing him to guys like Bruce Smith or Barry Sanders or something. I'm comparing him to guys that are borderline or are other special teamers. What if Tasker was in for 300 plays (and remember that he did continue playing ST those couple of years he was the 3rd WR, although maybe he was off one of the units to save energy or something), and what if he was so good at what he did that he made a real impact 85% of the time. Compare that to a borderline HOF candidate or member who was in for 1000 plays at a 50% impact. I think 50% is actually pretty reasonable for a very good player. But if Tasker was really the best at what he did for those years, and the fact that he made 7 Pro Bowls says something, then it's reasonable to assume he could have made an impact on a much higher percentage of his fewer number of plays. Now I realize that 85% of 300 is still less than 50% of 1000, but it is closer than it may first appear so is there some point at which we should start paying attention to the 85% versus the 50%?

 

[Tau837]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.I don't see that happening.

Yes and no. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, nor do I know if they are available. But how many special teams plays are there a game? What if Tasker was on the field for 5 of the 6 different special teams plays (kick, kick return, FG/XPt, FG/XPt defense, punt, punt return) for each game? How many plays is that compared to the number of offensive or defensive plays in a game? I think people are thinking he was just the gunner on punts or the punt returner. But what if he was on the field for 5 of those 6 plays every game? That's a little bit better than Ray Guy just being out there for punts, isn't it?

Well, this past season:Teams ranged from 898 to 1075 offensive plays. The Giants were 16th with 1003.Teams ranged from 930 to 1062 defensive plays. The Chiefs were 16th with 999.Teams ranged from 47 to 100 punts. A few teams were tied at #16 with 77.Teams ranged from 56 to 92 kickoffs. The Seahawks were 16th with 75.I think it's appropriate to use the same number for kick returns as for combined punts and kickoffs, in order to eliminate those that were not returned even though the play happened. So I'll use 152 for the number of kick returns.So someone who was a HOF caliber player on offense presumably played the majority of ~1000 snaps, possibly every snap, depending on position. Same for a HOF caliber player who played defense. In contrast, a special teams player who played every snap for kickoffs, punts, and kick returns, probably played only ~300 plays.You mentioned field goals and extra points as if Tasker played those. Did he? Even if so (last season):Teams ranged from 16 to 59 TDs, and thus potential extra point attempts. The Titans were 16th with 36.It looks like individual kickers attempted between 22 and 37 field goals, couldn't find team attempts quickly for some reason.So even if Tasker played on field goals and extra points, it would only add about 75 more plays or so. He'd still be at ~375 special teams plays, playing every single one of them, which would leave him at less than half the number of plays a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player would play in a regular season.

Well, I don't know how often he played on FG and Xtra Points, but he won the MVP in the Pro Bowl in part due to blocking the potential game winning FG for the NFC, IIRC. The only issue I still have with that is that you're assuming an equal amount of impact per play. I'm not comparing him to guys like Bruce Smith or Barry Sanders or something. I'm comparing him to guys that are borderline or are other special teamers. What if Tasker was in for 300 plays (and remember that he did continue playing ST those couple of years he was the 3rd WR, although maybe he was off one of the units to save energy or something), and what if he was so good at what he did that he made a real impact 85% of the time. Compare that to a borderline HOF candidate or member who was in for 1000 plays at a 50% impact. I think 50% is actually pretty reasonable for a very good player. But if Tasker was really the best at what he did for those years, and the fact that he made 7 Pro Bowls says something, then it's reasonable to assume he could have made an impact on a much higher percentage of his fewer number of plays. Now I realize that 85% of 300 is still less than 50% of 1000, but it is closer than it may first appear so is there some point at which we should start paying attention to the 85% versus the 50%?

Well let's define impact. Tasker had 909 total offensive yards and 9 offensive TDs. I'd say those 9 TDs were impact plays, as were a handful of his catches that were for first downs, for example. But overall, his impact was minimal outside of special teams.So let's define his impact on special teams. How many TDs did he score on special teams? None as far as I can tell. He returned 44 kickoffs for 910 yards for a very pedestrian average of 20.7 yards per return. He returned 32 punts for 335 yards, a very nice average of 10.5 yards per return. He had no TDs in those returns, but no doubt a handful of impact plays on the longer returns.I found an internet source that said he had 204 special teams tackles during his career. How many were impact plays? He played 13 seasons, so that is an average of less than 20 tackles per season. I have no idea where to find how many fumbles he caused on those tackles; I'm assuming there were a few. I mean, what is an impact play in this context? Causing a fumble is. Saving a long return is, but it's impossible to know how many times he did that.You say he blocked a FG in the Pro Bowl. No idea where to find if he ever did so in regular play. I'll assume he didn't unless someone knows otherwise.So what have we come up with? 15-20 impact plays on offense? 15-20 impact plays on punt/kick returns? 40-50 impact plays on punt/kick coverage? I think that is being generous. That's less than 100 impact plays over his career... less than 10 per season.Now, how many impact plays do you think an average HOF caliber offensive or defensive player makes in a career? I'd say it's clearly a higher number by a large margin, although admittedly it is hard to measure for some positions like OL and DL. Did Tasker make more than other special teamers? Certainly more than most, but more than Mitchell? More than all other special teamers besides kickers? More than the best punter or kicker? I'm not sure. I suspect this type of thinking is what contributes to the fact that no special teamers other than Jan Stenerud, who pioneered the modern kicking style, are in the HOF.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Well let's define impact. Tasker had 909 total offensive yards and 9 offensive TDs. I'd say those 9 TDs were impact plays, as were a handful of his catches that were for first downs, for example. But overall, his impact was minimal outside of special teams.So let's define his impact on special teams. How many TDs did he score on special teams? None as far as I can tell. He returned 44 kickoffs for 910 yards for a very pedestrian average of 20.7 yards per return. He returned 32 punts for 335 yards, a very nice average of 10.5 yards per return. He had no TDs in those returns, but no doubt a handful of impact plays on the longer returns.I found an internet source that said he had 204 special teams tackles during his career. How many were impact plays? He played 13 seasons, so that is an average of less than 20 tackles per season. I have no idea where to find how many fumbles he caused on those tackles; I'm assuming there were a few. I mean, what is an impact play in this context? Causing a fumble is. Saving a long return is, but it's impossible to know how many times he did that.You say he blocked a FG in the Pro Bowl. No idea where to find if he ever did so in regular play. I'll assume he didn't unless someone knows otherwise.So what have we come up with? 15-20 impact plays on offense? 15-20 impact plays on punt/kick returns? 40-50 impact plays on punt/kick coverage? I think that is being generous. That's less than 100 impact plays over his career... less than 10 per season.Now, how many impact plays do you think an average HOF caliber offensive or defensive player makes in a career? I'd say it's clearly a higher number by a large margin, although admittedly it is hard to measure for some positions like OL and DL. Did Tasker make more than other special teamers? Certainly more than most, but more than Mitchell? More than all other special teamers besides kickers? More than the best punter or kicker? I'm not sure. I suspect this type of thinking is what contributes to the fact that no special teamers other than Jan Stenerud, who pioneered the modern kicking style, are in the HOF.

Does a player need to make a tackle or get a TD to have an impact on the play? Do you think Ladainian Tomlinson doesn't have an impact on what the other team or his team is doing even when he doesn't touch the ball?

 

[Tau837]

I don't really understand going down the path that a special teams player doesn't play a high enough % of plays to warrant being a HOF. Jan Stenerud is in the HOF. I'd be willing to bet that Adam Vinatieri gets there as well. It doesn't matter how many plays you play. It matters what you do when you get the chance to play.

Well, let's compare him to some borderline players. Who helped his team win more, Tasker or Art Monk? Tasker or Terrell Davis? Tasker or Drew Bledsoe? Tasker or Derrick Thomas? Tasker or Tiki Barber? Tasker or Leroy Butler? etc. I don't expect a single one of those guys to get in with the possible exception of Monk. So what makes Tasker more worthy than those players? Do you think Tasker contributed more to winning than they did?Another perspective. Do you think the best long snapper of all time should be in the HOF? The best third down RB? The best nickel back?More realistically, do you think the best fullback of every era should be in? Do you expect a fullback from this era to get in? Who contributes more to winning, Lorenzo Neal or Steve Tasker?Etc.

 

[Tau837]

Well let's define impact. Tasker had 909 total offensive yards and 9 offensive TDs. I'd say those 9 TDs were impact plays, as were a handful of his catches that were for first downs, for example. But overall, his impact was minimal outside of special teams.So let's define his impact on special teams. How many TDs did he score on special teams? None as far as I can tell. He returned 44 kickoffs for 910 yards for a very pedestrian average of 20.7 yards per return. He returned 32 punts for 335 yards, a very nice average of 10.5 yards per return. He had no TDs in those returns, but no doubt a handful of impact plays on the longer returns.I found an internet source that said he had 204 special teams tackles during his career. How many were impact plays? He played 13 seasons, so that is an average of less than 20 tackles per season. I have no idea where to find how many fumbles he caused on those tackles; I'm assuming there were a few. I mean, what is an impact play in this context? Causing a fumble is. Saving a long return is, but it's impossible to know how many times he did that.You say he blocked a FG in the Pro Bowl. No idea where to find if he ever did so in regular play. I'll assume he didn't unless someone knows otherwise.So what have we come up with? 15-20 impact plays on offense? 15-20 impact plays on punt/kick returns? 40-50 impact plays on punt/kick coverage? I think that is being generous. That's less than 100 impact plays over his career... less than 10 per season.Now, how many impact plays do you think an average HOF caliber offensive or defensive player makes in a career? I'd say it's clearly a higher number by a large margin, although admittedly it is hard to measure for some positions like OL and DL. Did Tasker make more than other special teamers? Certainly more than most, but more than Mitchell? More than all other special teamers besides kickers? More than the best punter or kicker? I'm not sure. I suspect this type of thinking is what contributes to the fact that no special teamers other than Jan Stenerud, who pioneered the modern kicking style, are in the HOF.

Does a player need to make a tackle or get a TD to have an impact on the play? Do you think Ladainian Tomlinson doesn't have an impact on what the other team or his team is doing even when he doesn't touch the ball?

No, obviously not. Please help me define Tasker's impact. I'm open to figuring it out, and just using what I have to work with.

 

[Gottabesweet]

Tasker always gets Browns games!

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Well let's define impact. Tasker had 909 total offensive yards and 9 offensive TDs. I'd say those 9 TDs were impact plays, as were a handful of his catches that were for first downs, for example. But overall, his impact was minimal outside of special teams.So let's define his impact on special teams. How many TDs did he score on special teams? None as far as I can tell. He returned 44 kickoffs for 910 yards for a very pedestrian average of 20.7 yards per return. He returned 32 punts for 335 yards, a very nice average of 10.5 yards per return. He had no TDs in those returns, but no doubt a handful of impact plays on the longer returns.I found an internet source that said he had 204 special teams tackles during his career. How many were impact plays? He played 13 seasons, so that is an average of less than 20 tackles per season. I have no idea where to find how many fumbles he caused on those tackles; I'm assuming there were a few. I mean, what is an impact play in this context? Causing a fumble is. Saving a long return is, but it's impossible to know how many times he did that.You say he blocked a FG in the Pro Bowl. No idea where to find if he ever did so in regular play. I'll assume he didn't unless someone knows otherwise.So what have we come up with? 15-20 impact plays on offense? 15-20 impact plays on punt/kick returns? 40-50 impact plays on punt/kick coverage? I think that is being generous. That's less than 100 impact plays over his career... less than 10 per season.Now, how many impact plays do you think an average HOF caliber offensive or defensive player makes in a career? I'd say it's clearly a higher number by a large margin, although admittedly it is hard to measure for some positions like OL and DL. Did Tasker make more than other special teamers? Certainly more than most, but more than Mitchell? More than all other special teamers besides kickers? More than the best punter or kicker? I'm not sure. I suspect this type of thinking is what contributes to the fact that no special teamers other than Jan Stenerud, who pioneered the modern kicking style, are in the HOF.

Does a player need to make a tackle or get a TD to have an impact on the play? Do you think Ladainian Tomlinson doesn't have an impact on what the other team or his team is doing even when he doesn't touch the ball?

No, obviously not. Please help me define Tasker's impact. I'm open to figuring it out, and just using what I have to work with.

That's the rub and I think Snotbubbles is right on. His impact is as difficult to determine as an OLineman. He doesn't have stats that can be broken down that well. How many times did teams double or even triple team him on the punt returns? How many times did that now-unblocked Bill make a tackle, like Pike or someone else? How often did he get down there so quickly that the returner had to completely change his run back and get tackled for less yards than he would have had the lane been there that Tasker took away?Impossible to calculate. So let's ask a different question: How are there any offensive lineman in the HOF? They are in for more plays, as you've shown. But what stats do they have? Sacks Against? How do you judge them?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I don't really understand going down the path that a special teams player doesn't play a high enough % of plays to warrant being a HOF. Jan Stenerud is in the HOF. I'd be willing to bet that Adam Vinatieri gets there as well. It doesn't matter how many plays you play. It matters what you do when you get the chance to play.

Well, let's compare him to some borderline players. Who helped his team win more, Tasker or Art Monk? Tasker or Terrell Davis? Tasker or Drew Bledsoe? Tasker or Derrick Thomas? Tasker or Tiki Barber? Tasker or Leroy Butler? etc. I don't expect a single one of those guys to get in with the possible exception of Monk. So what makes Tasker more worthy than those players? Do you think Tasker contributed more to winning than they did?Another perspective. Do you think the best long snapper of all time should be in the HOF? The best third down RB? The best nickel back?More realistically, do you think the best fullback of every era should be in? Do you expect a fullback from this era to get in? Who contributes more to winning, Lorenzo Neal or Steve Tasker?Etc.

Like Tasker or Rayfield Wright?

 

[PMENFAN]

The thing about a Steve Tasker getting in, is he'd have to beat out some guy that played every offensive or defensive snap.I don't see that happening.

Yes and no. I don't have the exact stats in front of me, nor do I know if they are available. But how many special teams plays are there a game? What if Tasker was on the field for 5 of the 6 different special teams plays (kick, kick return, FG/XPt, FG/XPt defense, punt, punt return) for each game? How many plays is that compared to the number of offensive or defensive plays in a game? I think people are thinking he was just the gunner on punts or the punt returner. But what if he was on the field for 5 of those 6 plays every game? That's a little bit better than Ray Guy just being out there for punts, isn't it?

Well, this past season:Teams ranged from 898 to 1075 offensive plays. The Giants were 16th with 1003.Teams ranged from 930 to 1062 defensive plays. The Chiefs were 16th with 999.Teams ranged from 47 to 100 punts. A few teams were tied at #16 with 77.Teams ranged from 56 to 92 kickoffs. The Seahawks were 16th with 75.I think it's appropriate to use the same number for kick returns as for combined punts and kickoffs, in order to eliminate those that were not returned even though the play happened. So I'll use 152 for the number of kick returns.So someone who was a HOF caliber player on offense presumably played the majority of ~1000 snaps, possibly every snap, depending on position. Same for a HOF caliber player who played defense. In contrast, a special teams player who played every snap for kickoffs, punts, and kick returns, probably played only ~300 plays.You mentioned field goals and extra points as if Tasker played those. Did he? Even if so (last season):Teams ranged from 16 to 59 TDs, and thus potential extra point attempts. The Titans were 16th with 36.It looks like individual kickers attempted between 22 and 37 field goals, couldn't find team attempts quickly for some reason.So even if Tasker played on field goals and extra points, it would only add about 75 more plays or so. He'd still be at ~375 special teams plays, playing every single one of them, which would leave him at less than half the number of plays a HOF caliber offensive or defensive player would play in a regular season.

Well, I don't know how often he played on FG and Xtra Points, but he won the MVP in the Pro Bowl in part due to blocking the potential game winning FG for the NFC, IIRC. The only issue I still have with that is that you're assuming an equal amount of impact per play. I'm not comparing him to guys like Bruce Smith or Barry Sanders or something. I'm comparing him to guys that are borderline or are other special teamers. What if Tasker was in for 300 plays (and remember that he did continue playing ST those couple of years he was the 3rd WR, although maybe he was off one of the units to save energy or something), and what if he was so good at what he did that he made a real impact 85% of the time. Compare that to a borderline HOF candidate or member who was in for 1000 plays at a 50% impact. I think 50% is actually pretty reasonable for a very good player. But if Tasker was really the best at what he did for those years, and the fact that he made 7 Pro Bowls says something, then it's reasonable to assume he could have made an impact on a much higher percentage of his fewer number of plays. Now I realize that 85% of 300 is still less than 50% of 1000, but it is closer than it may first appear so is there some point at which we should start paying attention to the 85% versus the 50%?

Well let's define impact. Tasker had 909 total offensive yards and 9 offensive TDs. I'd say those 9 TDs were impact plays, as were a handful of his catches that were for first downs, for example. But overall, his impact was minimal outside of special teams.So let's define his impact on special teams. How many TDs did he score on special teams? None as far as I can tell. He returned 44 kickoffs for 910 yards for a very pedestrian average of 20.7 yards per return. He returned 32 punts for 335 yards, a very nice average of 10.5 yards per return. He had no TDs in those returns, but no doubt a handful of impact plays on the longer returns.I found an internet source that said he had 204 special teams tackles during his career. How many were impact plays? He played 13 seasons, so that is an average of less than 20 tackles per season. I have no idea where to find how many fumbles he caused on those tackles; I'm assuming there were a few. I mean, what is an impact play in this context? Causing a fumble is. Saving a long return is, but it's impossible to know how many times he did that.You say he blocked a FG in the Pro Bowl. No idea where to find if he ever did so in regular play. I'll assume he didn't unless someone knows otherwise.So what have we come up with? 15-20 impact plays on offense? 15-20 impact plays on punt/kick returns? 40-50 impact plays on punt/kick coverage? I think that is being generous. That's less than 100 impact plays over his career... less than 10 per season.Now, how many impact plays do you think an average HOF caliber offensive or defensive player makes in a career? I'd say it's clearly a higher number by a large margin, although admittedly it is hard to measure for some positions like OL and DL. Did Tasker make more than other special teamers? Certainly more than most, but more than Mitchell? More than all other special teamers besides kickers? More than the best punter or kicker? I'm not sure. I suspect this type of thinking is what contributes to the fact that no special teamers other than Jan Stenerud, who pioneered the modern kicking style, are in the HOF.

That's a great analysis of the guy. I think Larry Izzo has been more of an impact special teamer, minus the returns. More so for his days in Miami than NE< but he's still been very solid in NE. The guy was a beast in Miami. The Pro Bowl accolades mean nothing to me. Yes, he made it, and he was MVP. That doesn't merit HOF consideration. Does a special teamer, on special teams alone, merit HOF consideration? Not that I've seen. If any comes along, he'll be playing on O/D too. Like Tim Brown. Like a Brian Mitchell. Like a Deion. Even Tasker cracked the lineup. Izzo is the only guy I can think of that ever made a career as only a special teamer. HOF candidate? When they open the wing for unique players that almost made the HOF.

 

[Tau837]

His impact is as difficult to determine as an OLineman. He doesn't have stats that can be broken down that well. How many times did teams double or even triple team him on the punt returns? How many times did that now-unblocked Bill make a tackle, like Pike or someone else? How often did he get down there so quickly that the returner had to completely change his run back and get tackled for less yards than he would have had the lane been there that Tasker took away?

Sure, but this effect happens with every HOF caliber offensive/defensive player. What I mean is, for skill position offensive players, they draw defensive attention away from others... HOF offensive linemen cause the team to change their pass rush... HOF defensive players cause offenses to change their blocking assignments, their playcalling, etc. And those changes caused by HOF offensive & defensive players affect many more plays in each game. And on top of that, HOF offensive and defensive players make more quantifiable impact plays on top of that.

Impossible to calculate. So let's ask a different question: How are there any offensive lineman in the HOF? They are in for more plays, as you've shown. But what stats do they have? Sacks Against? How do you judge them?

I completely agree that judging OL and DL (well, at least those who don't ring up a lot of sacks) is more difficult than most other positions. I mean, intuitively, a HOF OL is likely amongst the best in the league at run blocking and/or pass blocking... so he is probably making many key blocks that spring long runs or TD runs... and preventing sacks and thus preventing big losses, turnovers, and injury to one of the most important positions on the team. If we're talking about a center, he typically calls the blocking assignments for the whole line. And these things happen a lot more often than special teams plays. I certainly think a HOF OL has more impact on his team's winning and losing than Steve Tasker did.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Steve Tasker blocked a punt in the 1st Cowboys Super Bowl which led to them taking a 7-0 lead. Obviously, the game went south quickly thanks to a boatload of turnovers from Kelly and the offense, but Tasker made a huge impact. This is just one tangible example that came immediately to mind of his impact.

Things started out well in the beginning for Buffalo. On their first possession, the Cowboys were forced to a three-and-out. Bills special teams expert Steve Tasker then blocked the ensuing punt, knocking the ball out of bounds at the Cowboys 16-yard line. Four plays later, Thurman Thomas scored on a 2-yard touchdown run to give the Bills the 7-0 early lead.

 

[T Man]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.

However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.

THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

His impact is as difficult to determine as an OLineman. He doesn't have stats that can be broken down that well. How many times did teams double or even triple team him on the punt returns? How many times did that now-unblocked Bill make a tackle, like Pike or someone else? How often did he get down there so quickly that the returner had to completely change his run back and get tackled for less yards than he would have had the lane been there that Tasker took away?

Sure, but this effect happens with every HOF caliber offensive/defensive player. What I mean is, for skill position offensive players, they draw defensive attention away from others... HOF offensive linemen cause the team to change their pass rush... HOF defensive players cause offenses to change their blocking assignments, their playcalling, etc. And those changes caused by HOF offensive & defensive players affect many more plays in each game. And on top of that, HOF offensive and defensive players make more quantifiable impact plays on top of that.

Impossible to calculate. So let's ask a different question: How are there any offensive lineman in the HOF? They are in for more plays, as you've shown. But what stats do they have? Sacks Against? How do you judge them?

I completely agree that judging OL and DL (well, at least those who don't ring up a lot of sacks) is more difficult than most other positions. I mean, intuitively, a HOF OL is likely amongst the best in the league at run blocking and/or pass blocking... so he is probably making many key blocks that spring long runs or TD runs... and preventing sacks and thus preventing big losses, turnovers, and injury to one of the most important positions on the team. If we're talking about a center, he typically calls the blocking assignments for the whole line. And these things happen a lot more often than special teams plays. I certainly think a HOF OL has more impact on his team's winning and losing than Steve Tasker did.

OK, I can't convince you on Tasker versus a offensive or defensive player. How about Tasker versus a punter? How can Ray Guy, who only punted, didn't kick, return kicks, cover kicks, play some WR, etc have more of an impact than Tasker?

 

[PMENFAN]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

I consider the punter and kicker apart from the rest of the special teamers. They do thinks that nobody else on the field can. Everybody else on the field can block, run, tackle, etc. relevant to football. The specialsts of punter and kicker are isolated in what they do within the game. I just think you have to consider that. Vinatieri is going to the hall. Is he the best kicker ever? No, but every clutch kick he's ever been given the opportunity at, he's made. Some in very bad conditions. Even when he went to the Colts. He's stats are not astronomical until you get to crunch time. Ray Guy was so much better than any other punter, he should be in. Reggie Roby is another that just boomed it. I do think Guy should be in, but because he was just so awesome as a specialist. Tasker made plays, but somebody also mentioned Bill Bates. He didn't return, but had a huge impact on ST. Larry Izzo is the same way for the last decade. Just a huge presence. HOF worthy? Every team has their guy. If you start putting them in, the marginal guys, it fills up quick.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

I consider the punter and kicker apart from the rest of the special teamers. They do thinks that nobody else on the field can. Everybody else on the field can block, run, tackle, etc. relevant to football. The specialsts of punter and kicker are isolated in what they do within the game. I just think you have to consider that. Vinatieri is going to the hall. Is he the best kicker ever? No, but every clutch kick he's ever been given the opportunity at, he's made. Some in very bad conditions. Even when he went to the Colts. He's stats are not astronomical until you get to crunch time. Ray Guy was so much better than any other punter, he should be in. Reggie Roby is another that just boomed it. I do think Guy should be in, but because he was just so awesome as a specialist. Tasker made plays, but somebody also mentioned Bill Bates. He didn't return, but had a huge impact on ST. Larry Izzo is the same way for the last decade. Just a huge presence. HOF worthy? Every team has their guy. If you start putting them in, the marginal guys, it fills up quick.

But you just named about the only 3 guys in the last 25 years or so at the special teams position that were good enough to even be named. Every team may have his ST star, but every team's ST star doesn't get mentioned 15 years after their prime. And Bates and Izzo didn't even return, just covered (although I believe that Bates did play some S and Izzo some LB, correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

I consider the punter and kicker apart from the rest of the special teamers. They do thinks that nobody else on the field can. Everybody else on the field can block, run, tackle, etc. relevant to football. The specialsts of punter and kicker are isolated in what they do within the game. I just think you have to consider that. Vinatieri is going to the hall. Is he the best kicker ever? No, but every clutch kick he's ever been given the opportunity at, he's made. Some in very bad conditions. Even when he went to the Colts. He's stats are not astronomical until you get to crunch time. Ray Guy was so much better than any other punter, he should be in. Reggie Roby is another that just boomed it. I do think Guy should be in, but because he was just so awesome as a specialist. Tasker made plays, but somebody also mentioned Bill Bates. He didn't return, but had a huge impact on ST. Larry Izzo is the same way for the last decade. Just a huge presence. HOF worthy? Every team has their guy. If you start putting them in, the marginal guys, it fills up quick.

I'll give you kicker, but punter? Come on. You're saying that a guy you pins the defense back deep with his punt is more valuable than a guy who pins the defense back with a tackle on punts or kicks, returns punts and kicks, blocks the occasional punt or kick and, oh yeah, was the WR3 for a season or 2? No way.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Can't remember if MarshallRob is a Ray Guy lover or hater, but he's working on a major post here.

 

[dgreen]

Can't remember if MarshallRob is a Ray Guy lover or hater, but he's working on a major post here.

Hater.BTW, as a Skins fan I'd clearly lean toward Mitchell here.

 

[massraider]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

I consider the punter and kicker apart from the rest of the special teamers. They do thinks that nobody else on the field can. Everybody else on the field can block, run, tackle, etc. relevant to football. The specialsts of punter and kicker are isolated in what they do within the game. I just think you have to consider that. Vinatieri is going to the hall. Is he the best kicker ever? No, but every clutch kick he's ever been given the opportunity at, he's made. Some in very bad conditions. Even when he went to the Colts. He's stats are not astronomical until you get to crunch time. Ray Guy was so much better than any other punter, he should be in. Reggie Roby is another that just boomed it. I do think Guy should be in, but because he was just so awesome as a specialist. Tasker made plays, but somebody also mentioned Bill Bates. He didn't return, but had a huge impact on ST. Larry Izzo is the same way for the last decade. Just a huge presence. HOF worthy? Every team has their guy. If you start putting them in, the marginal guys, it fills up quick.

I'll give you kicker, but punter? Come on. You're saying that a guy you pins the defense back deep with his punt is more valuable than a guy who pins the defense back with a tackle on punts or kicks, returns punts and kicks, blocks the occasional punt or kick and, oh yeah, was the WR3 for a season or 2? No way.

How many kicks did he block, and what was his return average?Was he a Pro Bowl returner? How many TD's did he have?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Of the two, I think Tasker -- of course I am biased since I am a Bills fan. He was a tremendous ST player.However, I cannot see Tasker getting in anytime soon, if at all. He will have to get in on a week year as there are a number of players in the rotation to get in. A ST player will always be put on the back burner in favor of a regular starter because of stats and memories.THe committe will have to decide that it needs to make a point and put in a special teams player . . . and if they do, I would think Ray Guy should be in. I hate the Raiders, but he was one fantastic punter.

I consider the punter and kicker apart from the rest of the special teamers. They do thinks that nobody else on the field can. Everybody else on the field can block, run, tackle, etc. relevant to football. The specialsts of punter and kicker are isolated in what they do within the game. I just think you have to consider that. Vinatieri is going to the hall. Is he the best kicker ever? No, but every clutch kick he's ever been given the opportunity at, he's made. Some in very bad conditions. Even when he went to the Colts. He's stats are not astronomical until you get to crunch time. Ray Guy was so much better than any other punter, he should be in. Reggie Roby is another that just boomed it. I do think Guy should be in, but because he was just so awesome as a specialist. Tasker made plays, but somebody also mentioned Bill Bates. He didn't return, but had a huge impact on ST. Larry Izzo is the same way for the last decade. Just a huge presence. HOF worthy? Every team has their guy. If you start putting them in, the marginal guys, it fills up quick.

I'll give you kicker, but punter? Come on. You're saying that a guy you pins the defense back deep with his punt is more valuable than a guy who pins the defense back with a tackle on punts or kicks, returns punts and kicks, blocks the occasional punt or kick and, oh yeah, was the WR3 for a season or 2? No way.

How many kicks did he block, and what was his return average?Was he a Pro Bowl returner? How many TD's did he have?

What was Guy's punting average? Hangtime? Net?Wasn't there a long thread on here awhile back debunking his stats as being that great?