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Tanking/1st Round Lottery (1 Viewer)

pinda

Footballguy
Hey Guys,

Just looking for some advice on how some of your leagues may be doing things right now. Currently, I am in a 16 team, 9 keeper league. It's RB heavy with so many teams. Bascially every backup with any potential is protected in the 9 keeper. Our draft for the first round is all NFL draft players (rookies) and usually continues til the middle of the 2nd round, just depending on how deep the draft is.

We've had a system in place where the 8 non-playoff teams go into a normal lottery, everybody who doesn't make the playoffs has equal chance. There is no weighted system. We have also put in a rule that the furthest a team can drop is 4 spots. So worst team can be no lower than 5th. Second team no lower than 6th.

We are trying to find ways to see if there's an improvement to this process so that teams won't tank. The current system has worked fine up to this point, but we are trying to see if there is a better system than what we have currently in place. Here are some of the suggestions made by some of the owners in the league:

-only the worst 4 teams are eligible for the first pick, so the 13,14,15,16 placed teams are in a non-weighted lottery for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th overall picks. then the 2nd 4, places 9,10,11,12 are in separate lottery for picks 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th

-another suggestion is just to decrease the amount a team can drop from 4 spots to 3 spots, so #16 could do n worse than the 4th overall pick, #15 could do no worse than the fifth overall pick and so on.

any suggestions?

 
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The two suggestions you've listed from leaguemates will not discourage tanking.

If discouraging tanking is high priority, the system you have in place sounds fine to me.

 
If tanking is a serious problem there, it needs a serious deterrent:

Make the non-playoff teams add to the pot again depending on where they finish.

#16 pays half of what the original dues were (or the same amount, or whatever).

#15 pays less.

#14 pays even less.

etc.

Make it painful to lose. Hit 'em in the wallet.

 
Both suggestions seem to make tanking MORE likely than the current system.

We currently pick randomly each year regardless of where you finished. The only way it comes into play is that we pick out of a hat in reverse order of last finish. Of course, this is a redraft league, so the keepers thing isn't much of an issue.

The other thing we do is give money back to the isngle highest scoring week - so there's an incentive to playa full roster and continue to make moves.

 
I see nothing wrong with intentionaly tanking a game in order to secure a better position for your team.

Look at it like this; we do what's best for our team all year long in hopes we can get the best (i.e., championship) in the end. Intentionaly tanking to secure a better draft position is the same concept, You need to do what's best for your team. By tanking you are trying to secure a better draft position. It has always been my firm belief that if you can't see how this is being competitive then you really need to take a long, hard look at reality in the real world. Not everything is going for the gold, when that's not feasible you have to try to put yourself in a position for success in the future.

 
Lottery system. Seems you have one.

If that does not work, use "potential points" as a ranking order. People intentionally benching good players still have those players making potential points on the bench. Obviously, the worst team is probably scoring the least amount of potential points over the course of a season.

 
I see nothing wrong with intentionaly tanking a game in order to secure a better position for your team.

Look at it like this; we do what's best for our team all year long in hopes we can get the best (i.e., championship) in the end. Intentionaly tanking to secure a better draft position is the same concept, You need to do what's best for your team. By tanking you are trying to secure a better draft position. It has always been my firm belief that if you can't see how this is being competitive then you really need to take a long, hard look at reality in the real world. Not everything is going for the gold, when that's not feasible you have to try to put yourself in a position for success in the future.
True, there is nothing wrong with improving your team's chances of future success. If there is a reward for losing in your league, teams would be stupid to not to do it. "Tanking" does have an effect on the rest of the league, though, and that should be considered. Being competitive is good but you shouldn't have to trade being competitive now, for being competitive later. Leagues should be set up to make winning in everyone's best interest - the more you win the better, period. Non-playoff teams, if going into a lottery for draft order, should be weighted with the best record/most points getting the most ping pong balls, not the worst team. If going strictly from record, they should be placed in order of finish record-wise. Or the best non-playoff team should get to choose his draft spot, whatever, you see where I'm going with this.

If we are going to jump from the fantasy football world into the real world, then again being competitive is a good thing, but I believe the common good also has to be considered.

 
I personally never do it because it isn't fair to the rest of the players, but be realistic... real NFL teams "tank" all the time. They may not *lose* on purpose (though sometime it looks like they do), but they rest players and pretty much lose because they need to save their players for the playoffs. Colts, Denver, etc do it all the time. Is it fair to the other teams trying to make the playoffs? Nope, but they don't care. They need to take care of #1.

 
I GUARANTEE that the following method will prevent tanking in your league as long as it exists-- no exceptions. But, you might have a hard time convincing people to do it.

All you have to do is change the draft order so that the BETTER teams finish, the better they draft. The worse you finish, the worse your slot becomes. If you want, you can "punish" the champ so he's at the end of the line, but for everyone else they need to WIN to improve their draft position.

Just like that there is only incentive to win, whether you're in the playoff hunt or totally out of it. Every win-- even a seemingly meaningless one in week 14-- takes on new meaning. Improving by even one game could make a difference on draft day next year.

Many leagues don't like it because it's "not like real football," as if fantasy football is somehow similar to real football. The truth is that tanking games is bad for a league, and by changing to this method, nobody has any reason to tank-- ever. You don't need to throw money at them, or do a lottery, or any other complicated shenanigans. Just give teams incentives for winning only.

 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
Many leagues don't like it because it's "not like real football," as if fantasy football is somehow similar to real football.
I don't think that is in any way why most leagues don't like your suggestion of the better teams getting the better picks, and the real reason is quite obvious, how you're missing it is a bit baffling. It upsets parity in the league, the rich get richer. Even if you put the champ at the bottom, the league runner up gets Adrian Peterson while the last place team gets Ray Rice? The same teams will be on top every year as they continue to add young stud RBs for free, which are the biggest ticket item in a dynasty/deep keeper.
 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
I GUARANTEE that the following method will prevent tanking in your league as long as it exists-- no exceptions. But, you might have a hard time convincing people to do it.All you have to do is change the draft order so that the BETTER teams finish, the better they draft. The worse you finish, the worse your slot becomes. If you want, you can "punish" the champ so he's at the end of the line, but for everyone else they need to WIN to improve their draft position.Just like that there is only incentive to win, whether you're in the playoff hunt or totally out of it. Every win-- even a seemingly meaningless one in week 14-- takes on new meaning. Improving by even one game could make a difference on draft day next year.Many leagues don't like it because it's "not like real football," as if fantasy football is somehow similar to real football. The truth is that tanking games is bad for a league, and by changing to this method, nobody has any reason to tank-- ever. You don't need to throw money at them, or do a lottery, or any other complicated shenanigans. Just give teams incentives for winning only.
I like it :thumbup: It would never fly though.
 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
I GUARANTEE that the following method will prevent tanking in your league as long as it exists-- no exceptions. But, you might have a hard time convincing people to do it.All you have to do is change the draft order so that the BETTER teams finish, the better they draft. The worse you finish, the worse your slot becomes. If you want, you can "punish" the champ so he's at the end of the line, but for everyone else they need to WIN to improve their draft position.Just like that there is only incentive to win, whether you're in the playoff hunt or totally out of it. Every win-- even a seemingly meaningless one in week 14-- takes on new meaning. Improving by even one game could make a difference on draft day next year.Many leagues don't like it because it's "not like real football," as if fantasy football is somehow similar to real football. The truth is that tanking games is bad for a league, and by changing to this method, nobody has any reason to tank-- ever. You don't need to throw money at them, or do a lottery, or any other complicated shenanigans. Just give teams incentives for winning only.
:loco: The Ayn Rand rookie draft order. Brilliant.
 
During the playoffs, have the 8 non-playoff teams participate in a playoff for the draft order. Play consolation games so you can determine the exact order of finish. This completely deters people from tanking at the end of the season because there is no advantage and instead would create a disadvantage to tanking.

 
During the playoffs, have the 8 non-playoff teams participate in a playoff for the draft order. Play consolation games so you can determine the exact order of finish. This completely deters people from tanking at the end of the season because there is no advantage and instead would create a disadvantage to tanking.
:goodposting:
 
In one of my leagues the six teams that don't make the playoffs play a consolation playoff or "Toilet Bowl." The winner of the Toilet Bowl gets the 1.01 draft position the following season, the sixth place team (first round loser and lowest point scorer) gets the 1.06 position, and so on. Discourages tanking and keeps the losing teams interested and involved for another three weeks before the end of the season.Edit: Basically, what BuckeyArt said. :bag:

During the playoffs, have the 8 non-playoff teams participate in a playoff for the draft order. Play consolation games so you can determine the exact order of finish. This completely deters people from tanking at the end of the season because there is no advantage and instead would create a disadvantage to tanking.
 
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Regardless of which method you choose to dissuade tanking, the common (and I believe the correct) theme here is to reward teams for winning as much as possible. (We use: non-playoff teams draft in order of best-to-worst records followed by the playoff teams in reverse order of their finish with the champs last.)

Whether it's a best-of-the-rest tourney, a toilet bowl, a weighted lottery or any other similar strategy - winning must be made the objective for everyone every week to remove the allure of losing to gain some other advantage.

 
TANKING used to drive me nuts. But over the years most all my leagues have converted to the Toilet Bowl! Everyone of them that is not redraft with random draw except Misfits and Outlaws.

Some teams still tank some or strip for more draft picks but to build for next year. You still have to beat the none playoff teams to earn the top pick in 12 of my 14 non keeper leagues.

Back in old days I admitt I tanked a few teams over the years for that converted first pick. But not in last few years because it is no longer handed to me. You have to earn it and you have to build for them playoffs if your a terrible team just like the top teams do.

Toilet bowls are great and is the answer to help prevent tanking! The more you win the better seed you get to try and win your way to the first pick.

 
Lottery system. Seems you have one.

If that does not work, use "potential points" as a ranking order. People intentionally benching good players still have those players making potential points on the bench. Obviously, the worst team is probably scoring the least amount of potential points over the course of a season.
Since it seems to have been passed over, let me bump up Riffraff's answer. In a dynasty league, or a keeper league that keeps a lot of players, this is an excellent solution. The team won't cut their best players just to move up 1-2 draft spots. They might bench them, but won't cut them. If you go by potential points, then benching them won't matter.
 
We too use a lottery for our rookie draft but in addition to the one automatic chance at the top pick a team is awarded two additional chances per win. The worst teams, if they are winners of only a couple of games, rarely get in the top few picks but in our league those teams are always the ones that don't make many free agent pickups or just stop moving players. That means that they aren't increasing the pot or trying their best to win games which isn't good for the league anyway. And these guys know how to win so it's difficult to feel for them when they don't have a top pick.

I do like the minimum drop though and will bring that up to the boys.

Keep those good ideas coming!

 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
Many leagues don't like it because it's "not like real football," as if fantasy football is somehow similar to real football.
I don't think that is in any way why most leagues don't like your suggestion of the better teams getting the better picks, and the real reason is quite obvious, how you're missing it is a bit baffling. It upsets parity in the league, the rich get richer. Even if you put the champ at the bottom, the league runner up gets Adrian Peterson while the last place team gets Ray Rice? The same teams will be on top every year as they continue to add young stud RBs for free, which are the biggest ticket item in a dynasty/deep keeper.
I think the "not like real football" goes hand in hand with "not rewarding the bad teams/lack of parity." The NFL system rewards bad teams. Well, that makes no sense in a redraft league. It's a disadvantage, but not something you couldn't overcome. If you don't like your draft slot...you should have won more games the year before. You're not "doomed" because you don't have a better draft spot. In a dynasty it might have more impact, but isn't that kind of what a dynasty does-- maginfy your mistakes and reward you perenially for good decisions? Teams like that should trade up if they think a difference-maker is in the draft.Like I said, this method prevents tanking forever. But it's a tough sell for people who want their fantasy league to look like a mini-NFL. The ones that have tied it seem to love it, but I understand that it's not for everybody. Still, it's nice to see all teams trying their hardest, regardless of whether they made the playoffs or not. It has the added bonus of making the playoof bubble teams work for every win, insetad of stumbling upon an abandoned team and getting a cheap victory.
 
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