TE draft strategy: Taking both Gates & Gonzo (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

Bagger - go back and look at the WCOFF HOF league from 2004. I think Jon and Ian Millman used that strategy and came in either first or second.

It's been done before, but would be more logical if the drafter went

RB

WR

TE

RB

TE

or

RB

RB

TE

WR

TE

to combine the 2StudTE with taking a QB too early is likely headed for a bad result

Interesting.I agree that if you are going to do this, you can't grab a QB in round 2 and you need a stud WR. Then after you do it you need to hit up the WRs again immediately to get depth.

Good thoughts.

If you are good at identifying WR that will do way better than they are drafted, then this could work out. Last year my teams were filled with SSmith, Galloway, Glenn, and Kennison so even if my top guys flunked out at other positions my late round guys could still carry the team.I personally do not believe that there is a right or wrong strategy . . . it's picking the right players at the right times that is the secret. I certianly would not map out my draft by position and say in effect I HAVE TO TAKE A WR IN THE 4th.

I think people that have played enough have a good sense for who will fall and be available where, so that also plays into it.

 

[John Mamula]

If you are good at identifying WR that will do way better than they are drafted, then this could work out. Last year my teams were filled with SSmith, Galloway, Glenn, and Kennison so even if my top guys flunked out at other positions my late round guys could still carry the team.

I personally do not believe that there is a right or wrong strategy . . . it's picking the right players at the right times that is the secret. I certianly would not map out my draft by position and say in effect I HAVE TO TAKE A WR IN THE 4th.

I think people that have played enough have a good sense for who will fall and be available where, so that also plays into it.

Yes, however it is my belief that in this format you need 6 good WRs to compete.I cannot see how you can make up the value you lose by not grabbing your 1st WR until the 6th round. I do think that WR falls, but it doesn't fall that much to give everyone else a 5 round head start.

 

[SSOG]

If you are good at identifying WR that will do way better than they are drafted, then this could work out. Last year my teams were filled with SSmith, Galloway, Glenn, and Kennison so even if my top guys flunked out at other positions my late round guys could still carry the team.

I personally do not believe that there is a right or wrong strategy . . . it's picking the right players at the right times that is the secret. I certianly would not map out my draft by position and say in effect I HAVE TO TAKE A WR IN THE 4th.

I think people that have played enough have a good sense for who will fall and be available where, so that also plays into it.

Yes, however it is my belief that in this format you need 6 good WRs to compete.I cannot see how you can make up the value you lose by not grabbing your 1st WR until the 6th round. I do think that WR falls, but it doesn't fall that much to give everyone else a 5 round head start.

I disagree with any statements like "you need..." or "you really should...". If a team got Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Peyton Manning, Antonio Gates, Chicago's Defense, and Neil Rackers last year (a very easily obtainable setup), then I would argue that they really "need" very little from their WRs in order to compete.Anyway, a team could have assembled the trio of Galloway/Santana Moss/Steve Smith last year without taking a single WR until the 6th round. Who is to say that this guy didn't get this year's version of that trio?

 

[Bri]

some leagues allow 2 points per TE rec and it's real common to see them as the flex. This one doesn't but Tony G was the 44th ranked player in FF last year. That's probably better than your 3rd WR

In a 1 ppr league, he was the 6th best TE last year.As a flex option of RB/WR/TE in that league, he was the 57th best option.

Why does 44th come from?

ETA: I didn't run it, but no way did he have the 44th highest VBD in a league like this.

pfr

 

[Bri]

Maybe in a league where TEs get 2 ppr?

What positions can start at the flex spot?

Unless flex = TE or Kicker, I can't seen doing this.

1 PPR.RB/WR/TE in flex spots.

Why on earth would you ever want to start a TE at the flex spot then?

This is what I am trying to figure out.

some leagues allow 2 points per TE rec and it's real common to see them as the flex. This one doesn't but Tony G was the 44th ranked player in FF last year. That's probably better than your 3rd WR

Okay, but why draft him ahead of your 1st WR?

i wouldn't do thatwell....unless I crunched numbers in one of those 2pt ppr league for TEs and saw him super high...generally no way

 

[Bri]

In a league of mostly of all board guys, I recently went overboard on TEs as well. It's a 12-team best ball format starting 1 QB / 2 RB / 2 WR / 1 TE / 2 FLEX (RB or WR or TE) / 1 PK / 1 DEF. 1 PPR for RB and WR with 2 PPR for TE.

I ended up going:

1.02 Tomlinson, Ladainian

2.11 Davis, Domanick

3.02 Taylor, Chester

4.11 Gonzalez, Tony

5.02 Heap, Todd

6.11 Witten, Jason

Basically, I can start 5 of those 6 each week. To give people an idea, in this format there were 7 TE ranked in the Top 38 in overall scoring last year.

We drafted months ago, so the Davis and Taylor picks might seem a little suspect but there is still time for them to work out.

As for WR (we only have to start two remember), I ended up with

Battle, Arnaz SFO

Clayton, Michael TBB

Jenkins, Michael ATL

Kennison, Eddie KCC

Mason, Derrick BAL

Rogers, Charles DET

There are also still playable WR on the waiver wire, so I can add more WR if things don't work out.

you didn't mention a trade so....do you plan to trade a TE for WR? if not roll with all 3(2 as flex)? Is that what you're up to?interesting choices

 

[hickbones]

*IF* it's an active trading league, and *IF* Gonzalez returns to his form from 2004 and earlier, and *IF* the league understands and believes in the concepts of VBD, and *IF* the league understands the true value of a stud TE in a VBD system, then I see this working out well for this owner. Stud TEs are often worthy of first-round selections based on VBD, so he could theoretically be able to deal one of his studs for almost any WR in the league once the season starts.

On the other hand, that's a heckuva lot of "IFs".

On the OTHER other hand, if I'm reading this correctly, he got Gonzo for a 5th rounder, which isn't terrible (at least he didn't reach for him in the 4th).

Good points.No trades are allowed in this league.

Funny that you mention VBD...I would bet money that he used the draft dominator. He obviously used it incorrectly, but I am thinking he just took the #1 value guy every time??

Maybe someone can input WCOFF scoring into it and see what happens.

No Trades? What fun is that?

 

[Beaumont]

I have featured multiple early pick/high dollar TEs in several leagues where TEs get premium scoring and you have free use of flex positions ...

The three TE offense can be deadly ...

 

[SSOG]

*IF* it's an active trading league, and *IF* Gonzalez returns to his form from 2004 and earlier, and *IF* the league understands and believes in the concepts of VBD, and *IF* the league understands the true value of a stud TE in a VBD system, then I see this working out well for this owner. Stud TEs are often worthy of first-round selections based on VBD, so he could theoretically be able to deal one of his studs for almost any WR in the league once the season starts.

On the other hand, that's a heckuva lot of "IFs".

On the OTHER other hand, if I'm reading this correctly, he got Gonzo for a 5th rounder, which isn't terrible (at least he didn't reach for him in the 4th).

Good points.No trades are allowed in this league.

Funny that you mention VBD...I would bet money that he used the draft dominator. He obviously used it incorrectly, but I am thinking he just took the #1 value guy every time??

Maybe someone can input WCOFF scoring into it and see what happens.

No Trades? What fun is that?

It's generally adopted in leagues where owners don't want to worry about one idiotic trade completely destroying competitive balance for the rest of the season.

 

[(HULK)]

some leagues allow 2 points per TE rec and it's real common to see them as the flex. This one doesn't but Tony G was the 44th ranked player in FF last year. That's probably better than your 3rd WR

In a 1 ppr league, he was the 6th best TE last year.As a flex option of RB/WR/TE in that league, he was the 57th best option.

Why does 44th come from?

ETA: I didn't run it, but no way did he have the 44th highest VBD in a league like this.

pfr

What means this?

 

[David Yudkin]

some leagues allow 2 points per TE rec and it's real common to see them as the flex. This one doesn't but Tony G was the 44th ranked player in FF last year. That's probably better than your 3rd WR

In a 1 ppr league, he was the 6th best TE last year.As a flex option of RB/WR/TE in that league, he was the 57th best option.

Why does 44th come from?

ETA: I didn't run it, but no way did he have the 44th highest VBD in a league like this.

pfr

What means this?

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[John Mamula]

I disagree with any statements like "you need..." or "you really should...". If a team got Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Peyton Manning, Antonio Gates, Chicago's Defense, and Neil Rackers last year (a very easily obtainable setup), then I would argue that they really "need" very little from their WRs in order to compete.

Anyway, a team could have assembled the trio of Galloway/Santana Moss/Steve Smith last year without taking a single WR until the 6th round. Who is to say that this guy didn't get this year's version of that trio?

there is no way someone could have grabbed both tiki and alexander and peyton last year in this format. all were gone by the early 2nd round.

also, have you ever played in a 1 PPR 3 WR start + 1 flex league?

i am not kidding you when i say that your WR6 will start for you in multiple games.

the 3 WRs you list above even if you assume (which is an extreme reach but i will indulge you) that you got these 3 guys and caught lightning in a bottle, you would still be behind the 8 ball big time in your league at the WR position.

i really don't want to argue it, especially when you think someone can get 3 first round picks.

 

[John Mamula]

*IF* it's an active trading league, and *IF* Gonzalez returns to his form from 2004 and earlier, and *IF* the league understands and believes in the concepts of VBD, and *IF* the league understands the true value of a stud TE in a VBD system, then I see this working out well for this owner. Stud TEs are often worthy of first-round selections based on VBD, so he could theoretically be able to deal one of his studs for almost any WR in the league once the season starts.

On the other hand, that's a heckuva lot of "IFs".

On the OTHER other hand, if I'm reading this correctly, he got Gonzo for a 5th rounder, which isn't terrible (at least he didn't reach for him in the 4th).

Good points.No trades are allowed in this league.

Funny that you mention VBD...I would bet money that he used the draft dominator. He obviously used it incorrectly, but I am thinking he just took the #1 value guy every time??

Maybe someone can input WCOFF scoring into it and see what happens.

No Trades? What fun is that?

It's generally adopted in leagues where owners don't want to worry about one idiotic trade completely destroying competitive balance for the rest of the season.

also prevents collusion in high stakes leagues where the prize pool is hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[David Yudkin]

In a league of mostly of all board guys, I recently went overboard on TEs as well.  It's a 12-team best ball format starting 1 QB / 2 RB / 2 WR / 1 TE / 2 FLEX (RB or WR or TE) / 1 PK / 1 DEF. 1 PPR for RB and WR with 2 PPR for TE.

I ended up going:

1.02 Tomlinson, Ladainian

2.11 Davis, Domanick

3.02 Taylor, Chester

4.11 Gonzalez, Tony

5.02 Heap, Todd

6.11 Witten, Jason

Basically, I can start 5 of those 6 each week.  To give people an idea, in this format there were 7 TE ranked in the Top 38 in overall scoring last year.

We drafted months ago, so the Davis and Taylor picks might seem a little suspect but there is still time for them to work out.

As for WR (we only have to start two remember), I ended up with

Battle, Arnaz SFO

Clayton, Michael TBB

Jenkins, Michael ATL

Kennison, Eddie KCC

Mason, Derrick BAL

Rogers, Charles DET

There are also still playable WR on the waiver wire, so I can add more WR if things don't work out.

you didn't mention a trade so....do you plan to trade a TE for WR? if not roll with all 3(2 as flex)? Is that what you're up to?interesting choices

I have no plans to trade a TE for a WR. You are in the league . . . check out the scoring parameters.Last year, Heap, Gonzo, and Witten scored 265, 251, and 237 points in this format. That would rank any of them as a Top 10 WR (#10 WR scored 230 points) and Top 8 for RB (#8 RB scored 236 points).

Do you see anyone trading a Top 10 WR or a Top 8 RB for a TE? I doubt anyone would want to do that trade (and I doubt it would make sense on my end).

 

[Bri]

You are in the league

didn't even notice

 

[SSOG]

I disagree with any statements like "you need..." or "you really should...". If a team got Shaun Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Peyton Manning, Antonio Gates, Chicago's Defense, and Neil Rackers last year (a very easily obtainable setup), then I would argue that they really "need" very little from their WRs in order to compete.

Anyway, a team could have assembled the trio of Galloway/Santana Moss/Steve Smith last year without taking a single WR until the 6th round. Who is to say that this guy didn't get this year's version of that trio?

there is no way someone could have grabbed both tiki and alexander and peyton last year in this format. all were gone by the early 2nd round.

also, have you ever played in a 1 PPR 3 WR start + 1 flex league?

i am not kidding you when i say that your WR6 will start for you in multiple games.

the 3 WRs you list above even if you assume (which is an extreme reach but i will indulge you) that you got these 3 guys and caught lightning in a bottle, you would still be behind the 8 ball big time in your league at the WR position.

i really don't want to argue it, especially when you think someone can get 3 first round picks.

Sure someone could get Tiki/Alex/Peyton. Maybe not in THAT PARTICULAR format, but I know it's possible, because I did it. And yes, it was in a shark league, which is how I got Peyton in the first place (he doesn't fall to 3.02 in guppy leagues).Anyway, my point remains, a strong unit can cover for a weak unit, REGARDLESS OF THE SCORING FORMAT. I mean, it's not like this guy will be taking 0s at all WR positions. Is it unreasonable to expect him to get a Marty Booker type as well for his 4th WR, too?

You're being overly dramatic. He has not lost this league before it even started. He might wind up blowing the rest of you out of the water. Whether he does has less to do with his draft strategy and more to do with his projections.

Heck, I've seen a person draft Ricky Williams, Travis Henry, and Marshall Faulk with his first 3 picks in 2004 (TOTAL production- 1455 yards and 4 TDs). He still wound up winning the league.

Fantasy leagues are not won based on what you do in the first 6 rounds. They're won based on what you do in the last 12+ and in free agency. People fixate FAAAAAAR too much on the front half of the draft when, in reality, about half of those players will be busts, anyway.

 

[John Mamula]

I never said he lost this league before he started it.

I am trying to figure out people's experiences in having this little WR depth in this format and how it worked out for them.

Just trying to learn something.

 

[David Yudkin]

I never said he lost this league before he started it.

I am trying to figure out people's experiences in having this little WR depth in this format and how it worked out for them.

Just trying to learn something.

If drafting as suggested to start the thread, I think the only way to do well scoring wise at WR is to go with volume over quantity.So instead of taking 5 or 6 WR that are in the top third of the league, draft 8 instead and get guys that at the very least will play a lot and get some production over guys that might pan out and will sit most of the time.

Players like Eric Parker. Michael Jenkins, Reche Caldwell, Mark Bradley, Marty Booker, etc. might not be studs but if things work out they will kick in a couple of games a year where they actually score. I think there are WR that will get average production that are available pretty late, and securing enough of them will minimize the impact of not having true studs at WR.

Guys that are going with an ADP of WR50+ are:

148 WR51 Sinorice Moss NYG/4

161 WR52 Joe Jurevicius Cle/6

162 WR53 Santonio Holmes Pit/4

163 WR54 Amani Toomer NYG/4

165 WR55 Troy Williamson Min/6

172 WR56 Antwaan Randle El Was/8

179 WR57 Roddy White Atl/5

182 WR58 Charles Rogers Det/8

189 WR59 Samie Parker KC/3

193 WR60 Greg Jennings GB/6

194 WR61 Travis Taylor Min/6

200 WR62 Brandon Stokley Ind/6

206 WR63 Bobby Engram Sea/5

211 WR64 Reggie Williams Jac/6

222 WR65 Greg Lewis Phi/9

224 WR66 Michael Jenkins Atl/5

225 WR67 Eric Parker SD/3

I'd have no qualms about taking Jurevicius, Toomer, White, both Parkers, Taylor, Engram, or Jenkins from that list. And Robert Ferguson is not even on it (and many others).

That's the advantage of the WR position. Since there are so many that play and contribute in the NFL, there are many of them available in later rounds that can still contribute in best ball scoring. While others are fishing for RB, handcuffs, third QBs, kickers, defenses, etc., you can get a guy that will be a lock for 600/4 at WR with the chance to do much more.

 

[Capt Hook]

I never said he lost this league before he started it.

I am trying to figure out people's experiences in having this little WR depth in this format and how it worked out for them.

Just trying to learn something.

If drafting as suggested to start the thread, I think the only way to do well scoring wise at WR is to go with volume over quantity.So instead of taking 5 or 6 WR that are in the top third of the league, draft 8 instead and get guys that at the very least will play a lot and get some production over guys that might pan out and will sit most of the time.

Players like Eric Parker. Michael Jenkins, Reche Caldwell, Mark Bradley, Marty Booker, etc. might not be studs but if things work out they will kick in a couple of games a year where they actually score. I think there are WR that will get average production that are available pretty late, and securing enough of them will minimize the impact of not having true studs at WR.

Guys that are going with an ADP of WR50+ are:

148 WR51 Sinorice Moss NYG/4

161 WR52 Joe Jurevicius Cle/6

162 WR53 Santonio Holmes Pit/4

163 WR54 Amani Toomer NYG/4

165 WR55 Troy Williamson Min/6

172 WR56 Antwaan Randle El Was/8

179 WR57 Roddy White Atl/5

182 WR58 Charles Rogers Det/8

189 WR59 Samie Parker KC/3

193 WR60 Greg Jennings GB/6

194 WR61 Travis Taylor Min/6

200 WR62 Brandon Stokley Ind/6

206 WR63 Bobby Engram Sea/5

211 WR64 Reggie Williams Jac/6

222 WR65 Greg Lewis Phi/9

224 WR66 Michael Jenkins Atl/5

225 WR67 Eric Parker SD/3

I'd have no qualms about taking Jurevicius, Toomer, White, both Parkers, Taylor, Engram, or Jenkins from that list. And Robert Ferguson is not even on it (and many others).

That's the advantage of the WR position. Since there are so many that play and contribute in the NFL, there are many of them available in later rounds that can still contribute in best ball scoring. While others are fishing for RB, handcuffs, third QBs, kickers, defenses, etc., you can get a guy that will be a lock for 600/4 at WR with the chance to do much more.

David - if this were a survivor league or any other best ball league, I would agree with you, but what I believe Bagger is trying to figure out is whether this could be used successfully in a 2RB, 3WR, TE, Flex league where you have to delineate who is playing each week, which makes it substantially harder to use a large WRBC and get enough production from it.