The Godfather - Premiered 50 Years Ago Today (1 Viewer)

[zamboni]

Not sure if any of that is explained in the book - speaking of, how many of you have read the book and is it worth a read?

I read the book a bunch of years ago, but after I had already seen the movie multiple times.

I was honestly underwhelmed by the book - maybe if I hadn't known the movie that well, it would be different. The book spends a ton of space to Johnny Fontaine and Sonny's mistress Lucy Mancini. Lucy is barely even seen in the first two parts of the movie.

 

[Ilov80s]

I read the book a bunch of years ago, but after I had already seen the movie multiple times.

I was honestly underwhelmed by the book - maybe if I hadn't known the movie that well, it would be different. The book spends a ton of space to Johnny Fontaine and Sonny's mistress Lucy Mancini. Lucy is barely even seen in the first two parts of the movie.

Yeah I read it in HS after seeing the movies.  I don't remember it too well but I do remember lots of sex and richard talk, was a lot less classy than the movies. Entertaining but nothing to hint at it being developed into the greatest movie of all time. As some as hinted at here, what makes a great novel and what makes a novel great for adaptation can be very different. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

how many of you have read the book and is it worth a read?

... underwhelmed by the book - maybe if I hadn't known the movie that well, it would be different. The book spends a ton of space to Johnny Fontaine ...

I read it in high school and also read as many real-mob books as I could at that time only to 'discover' that Mario Puzzo stole the entire mob history and molded it into the Corleone family.

I'm sure many/most(?) know that the Johnny Fontaine character is based on Frank Sinatra.  The scene at the 'wedding' is based on the well-known up-state meeting of 'the families' that took place where FBI agents were taking down license plates numbers and pictures of mobsters because up to that point in time the head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover said that there was no such thing as organized crime.

J. Edgar Hoover was gay and lived with his boyfriend (Clyde Tolson) who he employed as his right-hand-man at the agency.  They were known within the Agency as 'Johnny and Clyde'.  The first thing Hoover did as head of the FBI was to ban all homosexual agents because he said they could be blackmailed.  He judiciously accused famous people who he did not like as gay such as First Lady Elanor Roosevelt who he accused as being a lesbian. 

Turns out the mob had lots and lots and lots on J. Edgar aka 'Mary' who would dress up as a female and have sex with teenage boys.  J. Edgar Hoover used blackmail to basically control everyone who rose to power within the US government and his 'black-book' is the first thing that went missing the minute he died.  But the reason why J. Edgar said that there was no such thing as organized crime is the reason who the mob became so powerful at the start of the 1950s.  They had Carte Blanche to operate without constraint, but a little-known U.S. Senator named Estes Kefauver, a 47 year-old Democrat from Tennessee, began a series of investigative hearings on organized crime at the time of the McCarthy hearings the Kefauver hearings began in 1950 and lasted for a year.

Puzo 'apparently' knew the history of the mob and included it in the Godfather.  Coppolo co-wrote the screenplay and many in the industry knew Johnny Fontaine was based on Frank Sinatra but not as many know that many of the details were based on the real history of the mob.  No one 'outted' J. Edgar Hoover until decades after his death.

The fear of Hoover's black-book of secrets kept it from being a central theme of the book or movie but it is KEY to understanding everything that takes place in mob history and the story of the Godfather that is based on mob history.

 

[wikkidpissah]

makes me wanna put on my fishnets and re-read it...

 

[AAABatteries]

I read the book a bunch of years ago, but after I had already seen the movie multiple times.

I was honestly underwhelmed by the book - maybe if I hadn't known the movie that well, it would be different. The book spends a ton of space to Johnny Fontaine and Sonny's mistress Lucy Mancini. Lucy is barely even seen in the first two parts of the movie.

Memorable scene though

 

[Andy Dufresne]

It's in theaters here for the next couple weeks. Check your local listings if you want to catch the cinema experience.

 

[steeler6]

Duplicate post

 

[steeler6]

The Rewatchables movie podcast by Bill Simmons does a nice review of The Godfather. 

 

[[scooter]]

Are there any big plot holes in this movie?  ... Sonny's death doesn't quite make sense - in the way it was set up and then how Carlo wasn't immediately killed - but its really not a plot hole as much as something that's just a little far fetched.

Sonny's death is a plot hole

Carlo beats Connie, which sets into motion the complex Sonny assassination plan.

The plan was after the beating, to have multiple gunmen waiting and ready to kill Sonny at the freeway.  Having multiple gunmen with cars  blocking means they would have to KNOW he'd be there.  

The complex assassination plan begins with some girl phoning asking for Carlo with Connie answering.  Carlo enters and THE PLAN was that they would know that she'd go off on Carlo who would beat Connie severely to the point that Connie would instantly phone Sonny.  Timing was be crucial since they had multiple gunmen and cars ready to block Sonny at the freeway. 

In a later scene we see the last thing Connie would want was for Sonny to beat or kill Carlo so she would not immediately call Sonny.  

The next part of the PLAN was that Sonny would go ballistic and leave a well guarded compound, in the middle of a mob war, without any protection as soon as he got the call.  Tom Hagen told guys to go with Sonny so the plan was all based on Connie immediately phoning Sonny, Sonny losing his mind and ditching all protection, and for the assassins to kill Sonny before any protection got there.  

If Carlo was against the family and had THAT MUCH information on the inner workings of the Corleone family he'd figure out a better plan and he'd realize they would figure out his betrayal and they would kill him. 

It is the weakest plot point in an excellent movie.  I cringe at the logic but the killing of Sonny is a vivid scene so most tend to overlook how the weakest plot point set up that scene.

Another issue is that the phone call from the other woman was completely inconsequential. (As if Carlo ever needed an excuse to start a fight with Connie!) Not only that, but the master plan hinges upon: A) Connie answering the phone,  B) Connie getting so upset that it would lead to a fight, and C) Connie subsequently talking to Sonny -- and not Tom or her mother or one of her girlfriends. Oh, and the plot also hinges upon Sonny being home at the exact moment that Connie called.

(Note: in the original script, Connie actually called her mother, specifically said that she didn't want to talk to Sonny, then tried to reassure Sonny that "it's nothing", then asked for Tom to come get her. A very different vibe.)

Anyway, if Connie decides to call a girlfriend instead of calling home, all of Barzini's men would have gone to the tollbooth for nothing.

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

That little half hop/half strut Fredo does when Michael enters the Las Vegas hotel room is such a telling visual for how Fredo misinterprets most of life. 

 

[zamboni]

Rehearsal footage

 

[otb_lifer]

Anyway, if Connie decides to call a girlfriend instead of calling home, all of Barzini's men would have gone to the tollbooth for nothing.

the bolded is the least troublesome of all this ... i mean, do you think the crew assembled at the Causeway are part-time soldati? like they have a 9-5 job or sumthin'?  "hey, i already took my vacation, and i'm plum outta sick days!!! if i gotta sweat Sonny on the Causeway one more day i'm gonna get canned!!!!1!"



these were professional button men, and if Barzini gave the orders to be there for 5 or 10 or 24 hours, then they were there for however long it took before he called the dogs off - that's their lot in that life: follow orders!

this was during the mob's heyday, and there were literally hundreds of goons at his disposal ... so squiring a dozen or so to that spot to wait for the hit is no great shakes - and if it took multiple days of staking out? well, see above. 

was also a period of heightened tensions, as this was full blown war with the Corleones - if somebody begged off the assignment then it would've been them with the toe tag. 

offing the acting Don of the most powerful family was a shot they had to concoct, as the chances of hitting Sonny in the open were gonna be long - again, as i said in his decision to send Luca to his sure death, it helps illustrate that Sonny did not have the cunning discipline to survive - they gambled on his impulses, and it paid off. 

 

[Charlie Steiner]

offing the acting Don of the most powerful family was a shot they had to concoct, as the chances of hitting Sonny in the open were gonna be long - again, as i said in his decision to send Luca to his sure death, it helps illustrate that Sonny did not have the cunning discipline to survive - they gambled on his impulses, and it paid off. 

If you mean to say that Sonny sent Luca, that's incorrect. Don Vito did.

Right after they met with Solozzo, Vito met with Luca and told him to go to the Tataglias and tell them he is unhappy.  When he does, he gets garrotted and Vito gets gunned down buying fruit while Fredo fumbles away his gun. That hit probably doesn't happen if Luca is guarding Vito instead of playing spy for him, which adds weight to Solozzo's claim that the Don was slipping.

I like your take on explaining the hit on Sonny. Always thought of it as contrived to have a hit squad at just the right spot to respond to an unplanned event like Sonny finding out Carlo was using his sister as a speedbag, but what you said makes a lot of sense.

 

[otb_lifer]

If you mean to say that Sonny sent Luca, that's incorrect. Don Vito did.

yep, egregious eff up there on my part.  mea culpa. 

I like your take on explaining the hit on Sonny. Always thought of it as contrived to have a hit squad at just the right spot to respond to an unplanned event like Sonny finding out Carlo was using his sister as a speedbag, but what you said makes a lot of sense.

speaking further to that point, if Don Barzini wanted a dozen guys staked out on both sides of the Causeway tollbooth, then he got what he wanted - as i said earlier, height of the mob's muscle and influence, so carrying that off thru the window he had was no big bother or ask from the "authorities"  

they were in no position to deny him. 

 

[zamboni]

Right after they met with Solozzo, Vito met with Luca and told him to go to the Tataglias and tell them he is unhappy.  When he does, he gets garrotted and Vito gets gunned down buying fruit while Fredo fumbles away his gun. That hit probably doesn't happen if Luca is guarding Vito instead of playing spy for him, which adds weight to Solozzo's claim that the Don was slipping.

Right - normally Vito would never leave himself vulnerable like that with Fredo as his bodyguard. As Vito said himself, he had a weakness for his children and he paid dearly for that there.

 

[otb_lifer]

Right - normally Vito would never leave himself vulnerable like that with Fredo as his bodyguard. As Vito said himself, he had a weakness for his children and he paid dearly for that there.

let's remember ... it was supposed to be Carlo guarding/driving Don Vito that day - but he got the *sniffles*

that stroonz

 

[gump]

Rehearsal footage

Bobby D’s laugh…

 

[zamboni]

let's remember ... it was supposed to be Carlo guarding/driving Don Vito that day - but he got the *sniffles*

that stroonz

Wasn't that Paulie, or do I have scenes mixed up?

 

[otb_lifer]

Wasn't that Paulie, or do I have scenes mixed up?

yes, Paulie ... jeeeezuss, i need more coffee. 

 

[otb_lifer]

Rehearsal footage

Duval looking more like Pops Childress than Tom Hagen up in that clip ...

mmmmhmmm

 

[Charlie Steiner]

yep, egregious eff up there on my part.  mea culpa. 

speaking further to that point, if Don Barzini wanted a dozen guys staked out on both sides of the Causeway tollbooth, then he got what he wanted - as i said earlier, height of the mob's muscle and influence, so carrying that off thru the window he had was no big bother or ask from the "authorities"  

they were in no position to deny him. 

This whole killing Sonny business is still a little shady, though...

I'm sure Solozzo went back to Barzini/Tataglia and told them that Sonny was hot for the deal, so killing Vito to put Sonny in place made sense. But killing Sonny, especially after the news came out that Vito had survived the attack, only served to tell the Corleones they were going to be wiped out, and a full-blown war was inevitable. To me, the establishment of the Five Families as a thing was to prevent this sort of thing from happening, so again, killing Sonny is not a business transaction. They don't kill Sonny, the Corleones don't feel like they're being eliminated, Michael doesn't kill Solozzo and peace is still possible. All killing Sonny did was ensure there would be war, and war is bad for business.

 

[otb_lifer]

This whole killing Sonny business is still a little shady, though...

I'm sure Solozzo went back to Barzini/Tataglia and told them that Sonny was hot for the deal, so killing Vito to put Sonny in place made sense. But killing Sonny, especially after the news came out that Vito had survived the attack, only served to tell the Corleones they were going to be wiped out, and a full-blown war was inevitable. To me, the establishment of the Five Families as a thing was to prevent this sort of thing from happening, so again, killing Sonny is not a business transaction. They don't kill Sonny, the Corleones don't feel like they're being eliminated, Michael doesn't kill Solozzo and peace is still possible. All killing Sonny did was ensure there would be war, and war is bad for business.

killing Sonny is a business transaction - they had no other choice after Vito pulled through - the Corleones were at their absolute weakest at that point, so THEN was the time to chop the heir apparent's hot head off, lest he control the majority of biz for the next 30/40 years, just like his pops - Barzini had that one shot to be capo di tuti capi, and he took it - he had to. 

Vito was in a weakened state, Luca was offed ... and let's not forget one of Don Vito's oldest friends, Tesio, was probably flipped already, and may have been the mole deep in the Corleone faction that made most of this more plausible. 

remember, to the other 4 families, after Sonny was gone, all Vito had left was ####in' Fredo ... Michael was a civilian, then an exile - Tessy flipped, so next in line would've been Fredo or Fat Clemenza - getting Sonny OUT reduced the Corleones to players beneath Barzini, ergo making him (Barzini) the top dog. 

 

[Charlie Steiner]

killing Sonny is a business transaction - they had no other choice after Vito pulled through - the Corleones were at their absolute weakest at that point, so THEN was the time to chop the heir apparent's hot head off, lest he control the majority of biz for the next 30/40 years, just like his pops - Barzini had that one shot to be capo di tuti capi, and he took it - he had to. 

Vito was in a weakened state, Luca was offed ... and let's not forget one of Don Vito's oldest friends, Tesio, was probably flipped already, and may have been the mole deep in the Corleone faction that made most of this more plausible. 

remember, to the other 4 families, after Sonny was gone, all Vito had left was ####in' Fredo ... Michael was a civilian, then an exile - Tessy flipped, so next in line would've been Fredo or Fat Clemenza - getting Sonny OUT reduced the Corleones to players beneath Barzini, ergo making him (Barzini) the top dog. 

That is probably how it went down in Barzini's head, but it was a dreadful miscalculation. The Corleones still had the loyalty of Clemenza and other capos (Part II revealed Pentageli was a capo as well, albeit further down the chain than Tessio and Clemenza) and all their buttons. As for Tessio flipping, that was probably more important to Barzini than killing Luca. I suppose Barzini would have backed him in the internal struggle for control of the Corleone family and Tessio would have been his puppet. To me, though, the big problem is that the gang war essentially ruined all the Five Families' credibility with the police/politicians/newspaper men they counted on to look the other way, and signed their own death warrant. No wonder Vito was seen as a genius among brain power like Barzini's.

 

[otb_lifer]

That is probably how it went down in Barzini's head, but it was a dreadful miscalculation.

with all due respect, everything you posted after that opening thought is immaterial, because what we both said about Barzini taking his shot renders all else moot. 

him & Tattaglia were dead men walking after the botched Vito hit  - no other choice at that point than to consolidate forces against the power. 

it was a desperate, last ditch attempt to wrest the crown, and the majority of the rackets money from the Corleones. 

they really had no other choice - they were on borrowed time, and they knew it. 

 

[Charlie Steiner]

with all due respect, everything you posted after that opening thought is immaterial, because what we both said about Barzini taking his shot renders all else moot. 

him & Tattaglia were dead men walking after the botched Vito hit  - no other choice at that point than to consolidate forces against the power. 

it was a desperate, last ditch attempt to wrest the crown, and the majority of the rackets money from the Corleones. 

they really had no other choice - they were on borrowed time, and they knew it. 

No offense taken. If anything, your take supports one of the underpinning morals of all gangster movies: There is no honor among thieves. I put more trust in The Five Families than they themselves did.

 

[gump]

If you follow Alison Martino via social media or her Vintage LA, you'll see that last night with the 50th Anniv showing at the Academy Museum in Hollywood.  FFC and Talia Shire hosted...and apparently the quality of the restored film is now really noticeably improved.

 

[Ilov80s]

I watched the new 4K restoration last night and part 2 tonight. It’s incredible how good these movies look now. Like seeing them on the big screen of opening night, maybe better. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Apologies if honda but I bought this book a while back and it's great. 

I also like this writer Tiago Forte and he talks about the process of gathering material for a project. 

Super interesting. https://fortelabs.co/blog/the-godfather-notebook/

 

[zamboni]

Apologies if honda but I bought this book a while back and it's great. 

I also like this writer Tiago Forte and he talks about the process of gathering material for a project. 

Super interesting. https://fortelabs.co/blog/the-godfather-notebook/

This looks interesting - thanks.

 

[gump]

Apparently The Offer is full of inaccurate storylines.

 

[Don Quixote]

I watched the new 4K restoration last night and part 2 tonight. It’s incredible how good these movies look now. Like seeing them on the big screen of opening night, maybe better. 

Picture quality is great on the new restorations. One thing frustrating on the discs is they don’t seem to remember where I left off. Every other Blu-ray disc gives me a “resume playing” option, but The Godfather discs do not (which is extra frustrating as 3+ hour long movies, and I rarely have that much consecutive time to watch).