The GOP needs to drop the abortion and gay marriage issue (1 Viewer)

[General Malaise]

Well, as a parent of a gay young man, I for one am relieved and encouraged that the views on gay marriage have changed and that we as a group view it as a non-issue here.  As a father, the last thing I want is my son to face discrimination or obstacles to his pursuit of happiness in life.  I don't want that for any human for any reason.  

 

[Ghost Rider]

Well, as a parent of a gay young man, I for one and relieved and encouraged that the views on gay marriage have changed and that we as a group view it as a non-issue here.  As a father, the last thing I want is my son to face discrimination or obstacles to his pursuit of happiness in life.  I don't want that for any human for any reason.  

Well said.  

I think for a lot of people who consider themselves traditionalists when it comes to marriage, they almost need to see it happen close to them to accept it, if that makes sense.  For example, a close family member worked for years with a boss who was gay. This family member is very conservative and was previously very much of the "marriage is between a man and woman" link of thinking, but thought the world of the boss, and when he got married to his partner, my family member went to the wedding and couldn't have been happier for him and his new husband.  

 

[Football Jones]

Gay marriage? No biggie.

Abortion? The issue will never go away until it's fixed.

 

[sho nuff]

Gay marriage? No biggie.

Abortion? The issue will never go away until it's fixed.

And what does fixing  it mean?

 

[Football Jones]

And what does fixing  it mean?

What you think?

 

[Kao-Lin]

America is culturally leftist.

This is a poor assumption.  Look at the most liberal state in the country - California:

17 year olds to vote:  rejected

Rent control: rejected

Affirmative action: rejected

Eliminate Cash Bail: rejected

Contracting business bill (pro business): Accepted

That's quite the list of what leftists really think.  The US is a center right country.  This election was all about personality - in the down tickets Rs made huge gains in the House and in state houses.  In fact, I don't think they went backward in any of those.  

And what does fixing  it mean?

Hopefully making it unnecessary with expanded access to birth control, particularly in lower income areas.

 

[sho nuff]

What you think?

Its a direct question...please try answering as its your assertion.

 

[trader jake]

imo, it's one of the worst things you can do.....incest, or rape I'll listen.....but unwanted pregnancies just because you don't want the inconvenience?  Nope

No need.

"If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.”

So, there's that.

 

[KarmaPolice]

And there's your sticking point......it's not about limiting someone's choice as much as how much value is attached to an unborn fetus.....I have several friends who have adopted unwanted children, or from bad situations.....

I guess the way I feel about it is, if you're using abortion as a form of birth control......imo, it's one of the worst things you can do.....incest, or rape I'll listen.....but unwanted pregnancies just because you don't want the inconvenience?  Nope

IMO this is a scare tactic used, or at the very least a super small % of what is going on but the example is amplified to make it seem common.   Maybe it's just person experience, but I have known a few women who have gone done this road, and there were 0 of the them where that decision didn't weigh them down heavily and effect them deeply.  All of them were also using birth control.   What you seem to be saying is that it's common for people to have abortions willy nilly and that is their main form of birth control.  

Also part of this discussion is a lot of times it's not JUST abortions that are being prevented by the side fighting against them, it's also trying to stop common sense sex education, and access to birth control.   

Anyway, like I said earlier a big part of my disconnect with people who are very much for government getting involved with this, but very much for government staying out of their way when it comes to COVID.   I don't understand that line of thinking for people who supposedly want smaller government.  I would think even if you want smaller government, a federal response to things like pandemics and wars would still be on the table for some of their few functions.  

 

[Summer Wheat]

I feel like a broken record on this topic, but the membership of this forum is just incredibly out of touch with public opinion on abortion.  As you rightly note, there a bunch of states that would outlaw abortion tomorrow if they were allowed to do so.  And women are pro-life at approximately the exact same rate as men -- there actually isn't a gender split on this one.  But people just keep acting as if this is somehow a settled issue.  

Have to realize you are dealing with what maybe 50 people here in this forum.  Most have far left views so the sample size of opinion will always sway hard that way.  I try to be centrist on subjects and feel like a facist here at times.

 

[timschochet]

If a person is of the moral conviction that abortion is murder and wrong, I don’t think questions of political expediency or popularity are going to make much difference. 

 

[sho nuff]

Have to realize you are dealing with what maybe 50 people here in this forum.  Most have far left views so the sample size of opinion will always sway hard that way.  I try to be centrist on subjects and feel like a facist here at times.

The bolded just seems a bit off...I don't think most here have far left views at all.  Or we just disagree on what is "far left".

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Its a direct question...please try answering as its your assertion.

No you answer 

 

[KarmaPolice]

No you answer 

Does he then get chastised for putting words in other people's mouths?  Not sure what good comes out of answering questions for other people.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

I feel like a broken record on this topic, but the membership of this forum is just incredibly out of touch with public opinion on abortion.  As you rightly note, there a bunch of states that would outlaw abortion tomorrow if they were allowed to do so.  And women are pro-life at approximately the exact same rate as men -- there actually isn't a gender split on this one.  But people just keep acting as if this is somehow a settled issue.  

Just to be clear - just because I don't agree with the stance and think it's too much government interference, that doesn't mean I don't get what you posted here.  It was a great post, and I don't think this will go the way of gay marriage for the reason you stated.  It's not settled, and I don't see abortion and guns not being a big part of the reason people vote the way they do for quite some time.  

 

[trader jake]

Also part of this discussion is a lot of times it's not JUST abortions that are being prevented by the side fighting against them, it's also trying to stop common sense sex education, and access to birth control.   

This.

 

[The Dude]

Is the gop clinging to anti abortion just a means to leverage the Christian vote?

 

[Jayrod]

Is the gop clinging to anti abortion just a means to leverage the Christian vote?

Some candidates?  Likely.  I'm sure some politicians would give false testimony against their own mothers to get ahead.

All GOP?  Absolutely not.  Several candidates are legitimately pro-life and are in the game to influence the world for their beliefs.

Its the same on both sides of the coin.  Painting the GOP as some single-thought-process entity is a disservice to its members and representatives.

 

[Manster]

IMO this is a scare tactic used, or at the very least a super small % of what is going on but the example is amplified to make it seem common.   Maybe it's just person experience, but I have known a few women who have gone done this road, and there were 0 of the them where that decision didn't weigh them down heavily and effect them deeply.  All of them were also using birth control.   What you seem to be saying is that it's common for people to have abortions willy nilly and that is their main form of birth control.  

Also part of this discussion is a lot of times it's not JUST abortions that are being prevented by the side fighting against them, it's also trying to stop common sense sex education, and access to birth control.   

Anyway, like I said earlier a big part of my disconnect with people who are very much for government getting involved with this, but very much for government staying out of their way when it comes to COVID.   I don't understand that line of thinking for people who supposedly want smaller government.  I would think even if you want smaller government, a federal response to things like pandemics and wars would still be on the table for some of their few functions.  

Not what I'm saying at all.....there's a reason it weighs heavily on them.....they are ending a life!  That's what I'm saying!

 

[KarmaPolice]

Not what I'm saying at all.....there's a reason it weighs heavily on them.....they are ending a life!  That's what I'm saying!

Then what specifically are you saying when you are claiming that people are using abortions as birth control.   Just the abortion itself, or they are not using other means and just using abortions? 

I get that is why it weighs heavily on them.   There is a multitude of reasons why they might be doing that or not be able to carry a child to term.  I still think it's an overreach of government to be in control of that decision.  That's why I believe that it's a bit hypocritical when the same people want the government involved in this personal decision that doesn't really effect anybody else, but don't want the government to be involved in their life when it effects everybody around them (ie - COVID).  

 

[Manster]

Then what specifically are you saying when you are claiming that people are using abortions as birth control.   Just the abortion itself, or they are not using other means and just using abortions? 

I get that is why it weighs heavily on them.   There is a multitude of reasons why they might be doing that or not be able to carry a child to term.  I still think it's an overreach of government to be in control of that decision.  That's why I believe that it's a bit hypocritical when the same people want the government involved in this personal decision that doesn't really effect anybody else, but don't want the government to be involved in their life when it effects everybody around them (ie - COVID).  

Dude you're complicating my point.....

1) imo, there is no reason good enough to abort unless there is a medical reason or incest/rape

2) the reason it weighs heavily on the woman is because it's not a good thing......babies were not meant to be aborted.......so if ur on birth control, and you "accidentally" get pregnant, but you don't want a kid cuz u want to climb the corporate ladder......well tough noogies!  Maybe if you really want to make sure you don't have a kid, don't have sex!  Inconvenience is not a reason to kill a baby, period!

 

[Football Jones]

I'll admit to getting a little twisted when my friend said the Dems call abortion "healthcare". Healthcare for who? LOL

I've never paid attention to what they call it, but hopefully, that's not the case.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Dude you're complicating my point.....

1) imo, there is no reason good enough to abort unless there is a medical reason or incest/rape

2) the reason it weighs heavily on the woman is because it's not a good thing......babies were not meant to be aborted.......so if ur on birth control, and you "accidentally" get pregnant, but you don't want a kid cuz u want to climb the corporate ladder......well tough noogies!  Maybe if you really want to make sure you don't have a kid, don't have sex!  Inconvenience is not a reason to kill a baby, period!

1.  There are states and people that are also fully willing to not let this one happen too.  

2.  IMO these statements show a bit of a lack of empathy on reasons why somebody would choose that option, but whatever.   IMO it also shows a lack of reality and expectations about sex.   

3.  the bolded happens naturally all the time, so the bolded is not a true statement.  

All this still doesn't address my issues with whether or not the government should be in control of this either, and why for this and not for other things like COVID.  

 

[AAABatteries]

I feel like a broken record on this topic, but the membership of this forum is just incredibly out of touch with public opinion on abortion.  As you rightly note, there a bunch of states that would outlaw abortion tomorrow if they were allowed to do so.  And women are pro-life at approximately the exact same rate as men -- there actually isn't a gender split on this one.  But people just keep acting as if this is somehow a settled issue.  

Agree - although I've been looking ahead to the day when technology advances to the point where a fetus can be removed safely and put in to an artificial womb.  I'm not smart enough to know what the implications will be but it at least gives the opportunity for one of the major stumbling blocks in the abortion debate to be laid to rest.  I could actually see this being possible in our lifetime for sure.

 

[AAABatteries]

But I agree with most in here - the gay marriage thing is just dumb and if the GOP were smart (which they haven't been much recently) they would just embrace it and move on.  The Pence's of the world will adapt - many to most Christians already have.

 

[AAABatteries]

Dude you're complicating my point.....

1) imo, there is no reason good enough to abort unless there is a medical reason or incest/rape

2) the reason it weighs heavily on the woman is because it's not a good thing......babies were not meant to be aborted.......so if ur on birth control, and you "accidentally" get pregnant, but you don't want a kid cuz u want to climb the corporate ladder......well tough noogies!  Maybe if you really want to make sure you don't have a kid, don't have sex!  Inconvenience is not a reason to kill a baby, period!

I'm going to bring out my controversial argument I've made on these boards a couple of times.

I think both sides have it backwards - at least the ones who look at this from a religious perspective.  It's my understanding that the goal of human life from a Christians perspective is to have a relationship with God and spend eternity with him.  It's also my understanding that aborted babies go to heaven and not hell.  For an atheist (for example) this life is all we have, there's nothing else.  I would think an atheist would do everything in their power to allow that life to be lived while Christians could at least take solace in the idea that while the baby didn't live on earth, they have eternal life with God - which isn't guaranteed if they were born and lived their life.  I realize this is a mostly nutty take but it's something that always baffles me a little.

 

[Manster]

1.  There are states and people that are also fully willing to not let this one happen too.  

2.  IMO these statements show a bit of a lack of empathy on reasons why somebody would choose that option, but whatever.   IMO it also shows a lack of reality and expectations about sex.   

3.  the bolded happens naturally all the time, so the bolded is not a true statement.  

All this still doesn't address my issues with whether or not the government should be in control of this either, and why for this and not for other things like COVID.  

You keep bringing up the government when we have fundamentally different views on this issue.....again, it's always the sticking point......when you say "choice" you lose me......when I say "babies weren't meant to be aborted" I mean as a "choice"......I know it happens naturally when things aren't right

 

[Manster]

I'm going to bring out my controversial argument I've made on these boards a couple of times.

I think both sides have it backwards - at least the ones who look at this from a religious perspective.  It's my understanding that the goal of human life from a Christians perspective is to have a relationship with God and spend eternity with him.  It's also my understanding that aborted babies go to heaven and not hell.  For an atheist (for example) this life is all we have, there's nothing else.  I would think an atheist would do everything in their power to allow that life to be lived while Christians could at least take solace in the idea that while the baby didn't live on earth, they have eternal life with God - which isn't guaranteed if they were born and lived their life.  I realize this is a mostly nutty take but it's something that always baffles me a little.

I see ur point, but this is not just a religion thing.  It's a morality thing......again, women don't feel good about doing it, because it's not a good thing to do.

 

[KarmaPolice]

You keep bringing up the government when we have fundamentally different views on this issue.....again, it's always the sticking point......when you say "choice" you lose me......when I say "babies weren't meant to be aborted" I mean as a "choice"......I know it happens naturally when things aren't right

Yes, its just a fundamental difference then.  I feel the same, but IMO its a belief, and mine shouldn't be mandated to others by the government if it doesn't effect others .  That's why I keep bringing up the government, and am curious how people reconcile that.  Especially when its mostly the same people claiming they are for less government, and government shouldn't tell them to wear a mask. 

 

[sho nuff]

And what does fixing  it mean?

@Football Jones any answer to this yet?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I see ur point, but this is not just a religion thing.  It's a morality thing......again, women don't feel good about doing it, because it's not a good thing to do.

You don't think there is a big overlap of religion and views on this? Especially when you get into beliefs of life beginning at conception or before? 

 

[Manster]

Yes, its just a fundamental difference then.  I feel the same, but IMO its a belief, and mine shouldn't be mandated to others by the government if it doesn't effect others .  That's why I keep bringing up the government, and am curious how people reconcile that.  Especially when its mostly the same people claiming they are for less government, and government shouldn't tell them to wear a mask. 

You're trying to pigeon-hole conservatives, and you're talking about multiple things here........and AGAIN, your "belief" can end life.......this is one of those things where we are going to go nowhere, cuz we're not even near the same ballpark

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Is the gop clinging to anti abortion just a means to leverage the Christian vote?

Of course.

Both sides are willing to pick up an issue or two for votes and this is easily the biggest example of that.

 

[KarmaPolice]

You're trying to pigeon-hole conservatives, and you're talking about multiple things here........and AGAIN, your "belief" can end life.......this is one of those things where we are going to go nowhere, cuz we're not even near the same ballpark

I am not trying to pigeon hole anybody.  I am trying to have an honest discussion about how people reconcile these thoughts and how they decide what they are for and against government getting involved with.   I am genuinely curious.  If the answer is that they find it so abhorrent that they don't care if it might be inconsistent with other ways they think government should be involved in our lives, so be it.  

We have seen that people not being responsible during a pandemic can also end life.  

 

[AAABatteries]

I see ur point, but this is not just a religion thing.  It's a morality thing......again, women don't feel good about doing it, because it's not a good thing to do.

I tend to agree as I’m not in favor of it from a personal perspective but I do side with it probably not being my place to tell others what to do - either way, I’m just making a nutty point I’ve never heard anyone else make.